Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[clydeaker]

What I want to know is how dreamland will effect the sort of "Liberal political platform" there is for stages. I mean, the aim is for there to be a 5 stage starter or FLSS with the current legal stages that are generally accepted+PS2, sky loft, wuhu, and kongo. But I'd say Dreamland is good enough to be in there, and if we add that to the current 13 we're shooting for, we get a pretty nasty SS umber. I suppose not many people are up for FLSS, so it's a bit of a moot point, but it still makes me wonder.

Good point.
Battlefield, Dreamland, and Miiverse are all so similar they might end up being treated like FD and omega stages in tournaments.

 

[Ulevo]

It's also completely static, which is a point in its favor if nothing else.

Let's talk Dream Land for a bit. My thread on it is here if anyone wants to take a look but the tl;dr is that Dream Land is no longer big. In fact the blast zones are smaller than Battlefield. (By only 1-2% horizontally and 4% vertically, but still.) And it looks like the actual standing room has also been normalized to Battlefield size, or thereabouts.

Also Miiverse appears to be functionally identical to Battlefield in all respects except the shape of the under-ledge area.

Horizontal blast zone is slightly smaller, and the platform layout is slightly more enclosed.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dreamland is functionally different enough that I think it warrants use. In almost every MU, it plays out very meaningfully differently even without the wind, and the wind is actually a big thing. I think Miiverse vs BF is similar enough that it should be treated like an "omega". This allows us to drop stadium 2 and run 13 stages easily. The EVO 9 plus Skyloft, Wuhu, Kongo, and DL64 would make a solid stage list.

And we knew this, but Ryu's stage is really, really bad.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dreamland is functionally different enough that I think it warrants use. In almost every MU, it plays out very meaningfully differently even without the wind, and the wind is actually a big thing. I think Miiverse vs BF is similar enough that it should be treated like an "omega". This allows us to drop stadium 2 and run 13 stages easily. The EVO 9 plus Skyloft, Wuhu, Kongo, and DL64 would make a solid stage list.

And we knew this, but Ryu's stage is really, really bad.

I'm mildly annoyed that Dream Land is so similar to Battlefield regardless but I'll get over it.

Do you think there's 4 more stages that could be feasibly added to make a list of 17? I don't actually expect such a list to ever get used ever but it's a passing thought.

 

[jespoke]

^Ampharos sums up everything i was contemplating how to put into words properly. I hope to maybe one day see Mario Circuit fixed so a discussion to replace Skyloft or Castle Siege or something can get actual traction and testing, but until then i agree completely with AA's points

 

[Infinite901]

I'm mildly annoyed that Dream Land is so similar to Battlefield regardless but I'll get over it.

Do you think there's 4 more stages that could be feasibly added to make a list of 17? I don't actually expect such a list to ever get used ever but it's a passing thought.

Well, if we did the liberal 13, plus Dream Land and Peach's Castle... Mario Circuit and Windy Hill Zone, maybe? Idk. It's all weird. We might end up needing to put a 1 or 2 extras in a counterpick slot like Melee (Melee can never do FLSS with 6 stages)

 

[clydeaker]

Dreamland is functionally different enough that I think it warrants use. In almost every MU, it plays out very meaningfully differently even without the wind, and the wind is actually a big thing. I think Miiverse vs BF is similar enough that it should be treated like an "omega". This allows us to drop stadium 2 and run 13 stages easily. The EVO 9 plus Skyloft, Wuhu, Kongo, and DL64 would make a solid stage list.

And we knew this, but Ryu's stage is really, really bad.

True. I wasn't thinking about the wind on dreamland at the moment. Are the Miiverse stage's blast lines identical to Battlefields or are they only similar like dreamland? This is crutal for determining it's legality with battlefield.

Ryu's stage isn't that bad. I agree it's not good enough to be a starter, not even a counter pick (maybe if its lucky), but it's atleast suspect. There's only one walk off. the platforms make it easy to avoid projectile campers. The left side creates a unique competitive playing field. There arn't any hazards, glitches, distractions, Bosses, transformations, Angled ground levels, Moving platforms or objects. Its simple and strait forward. The only thing holding it back from being legal is the walk off on the right.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

True. I wasn't thinking about the wind on dreamland at the moment. Are the Miiverse stage's blast lines identical to Battlefields or are they only similar like dreamland? This is crutal for determining it's legality with battlefield.

Ryu's stage isn't that bad. I agree it's not good enough to be a starter, not even a counter pick (maybe if its lucky), but it's atleast suspect. There's only one walk off. the platforms make it easy to avoid projectile campers. The left side creates a unique competitive playing field. There arn't any hazards, glitches, distractions, Bosses, transformations, Angled ground levels, Moving platforms or objects. Its simple and strait forward. The only thing holding it back from being legal is the walk off on the right.

Miiverse blast lines are identical. I had a weird 1% variance when testing with Bowser's fsmash, but only in a specific location. All other fsmash tests yielded identical kill %. So for now I'm concluding that the blast lines are the same, or at least close enough as to make next to no difference.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

True. I wasn't thinking about the wind on dreamland at the moment. Are the Miiverse stage's blast lines identical to Battlefields or are they only similar like dreamland? This is crutal for determining it's legality with battlefield.

Ryu's stage isn't that bad. I agree it's not good enough to be a starter, not even a counter pick (maybe if its lucky), but it's atleast suspect. There's only one walk off. the platforms make it easy to avoid projectile campers. The left side creates a unique competitive playing field. There arn't any hazards, glitches, distractions, Bosses, transformations, Angled ground levels, Moving platforms or objects. Its simple and strait forward. The only thing holding it back from being legal is the walk off on the right.

Just camp the lower platform on Ryu's stage. In match-ups with a severe aerial mobility mismatch (like Jigglypuff vs Ganon), you actually can run a loop between the main stage and the two side platforms. Things like transformations and such don't really bother me (I'm all for variety), but degenerate gameplay from very poorly placed platforms does bother me a lot.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I heard Miiverse is functionally smaller than battlefield but I can't confirm this.

 

[webbedspace]

What I'm wondering is which matchups are most significantly altered by picking DL64 instead of Battlefield. How much is changed by occasional wind, and platforms slightly too high to up-smash from the ground (if that's all it's got left to distinguish it)?

 

[Jucchan]

What I'm wondering is which matchups are most significantly altered by picking DL64 instead of Battlefield. How much is changed by occasional wind, and platforms slightly too high to up-smash from the ground (if that's all it's got left to distinguish it)?

Dreamland 64 makes Pikachu even better than on Battlefield because for some reason you can quick attack cancel on the ground of the stage, similar to the transformation of Halberd with the cannon.

 

[Timic83]

Do people really want to force every tournament set up to buy Stage DLC?

And Miiverse should be banned simply because it's Battlefield with memes

 

[Sandfall]

Do people really want to force every tournament set up to buy Stage DLC?

They're already going to need to buy characters anyway. I highly doubt people who go to tournaments aren't already going to have dreamland on their setup, required or not. It's basically the classic "competitive stage"

Ryu's stage isn't that bad. I agree it's not good enough to be a starter, not even a counter pick (maybe if its lucky), but it's atleast suspect. There's only one walk off. the platforms make it easy to avoid projectile campers. The left side creates a unique competitive playing field. There arn't any hazards, glitches, distractions, Bosses, transformations, Angled ground levels, Moving platforms or objects. Its simple and strait forward. The only thing holding it back from being legal is the walk off on the right.

Ryu's stage is absolutely awful. A simple lack of hazards doesn't mean it should be legal, Dreamland, Yoshi's Island: Brawl, and Pokémon Stadium (Melee) are all examples of stage hazards/quirks working well for competitive play. Not only does this stage have the walk off on the right side, but it also has the camping spot on the bottom left platform. This ends up giving it a campy, cramped feeling that's quite frankly not suitable for competitive, or even casual play (if you want to actually have fun, that is). Even Kalos Pokémon League or even Mushroom Kingdom U would be legalized before this stage.

The heartbreaking thing is though, Suzaku Castle almost ended up being pretty decent:

If only they had moved the blast zones more to the right to remove the walk off, it might have actually been fun to play on. Oh well, at least the omega version (with the cool breakable signs) exists...

 

[cot(θ)]

So there are 2 stages left in the "suspect" category. I don't think these stages will have enough support to become legal without video evidence of good matches being played on them, so I would encourage anyone to hold of on making those threads until you have gameplay videos.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

I know it's probably too early to talk about, but now that Peach's Castle (N64) is returning, it has a stronger chance of being a counterpick instead of being banned sometimes like back in the day. Before, we couldn't grab ledges the N64, but in the Wii U version now we can:

(note Peach grabbing the ledge)*

This is a very big difference since in the N64, characters like Link and Falcon would be at a severe disadvantage when trying to recover. Also, I don't know if it's just me but based on the direct this stage seems slightly bigger and it'll probably be used as a counterpick by light characters since the blastzones could be large. Here's the video with a time stamp:

If it doesn't work, just go to 7:24.

What do you guys think about this? Is it too early to talk about?

 

[RIP|Merrick]

The ledges now being grabbable is definitely a huge point in its favor. When it releases we should also keep in mind how the bumper that slowly floats along the top will work with Smash 4 physics, and whether the slopes on each side will make characters survive longer than they should. Will require extensive testing and obviously use in tourney before we determine, but I have high hopes for this one.

 

[clydeaker]

I may be wrong, but I'm almost positive the moving platform always had grab-able ledges in Smash 64. The only problem is if it's on the other side of the stage when your recovering your screwed because you cant grab it.

Peach's Castle is usually considered a legal counter-pick in Smash 64 because the moving bumper disrupting game play, the triangular platforms on the sides prevent K.O.'s, and the lack of grab-able ledges. but there weren't many stages to legalize in Smash 64 other than Dream Land and Congo Jungle anyways. This was before Final Destination and Battlefield existed in multilayer. In doubles Peach's Castle is banned and Hyrule Castle is legal. In Project M Peach's Castle it's widely banned due to the large number of legal stages already available and because of reasons I already listed. I predict this stage will be considered suspect, possibly a legal counter-pick in singles.

Hyrule Castle is usually considered banned in singles, but it's a legal counter-pick in doubles due to it's size. For a long time it was widely considered the second most legal size behind dream land, over time the disadvantages of the hazards and features of the stage have become more apparent in the more recent meta game. The tornadoes appear randomly and they move at random speeds, places, and directions. The stage promote significant camping. the tent of the left promotes circle camping. Also there's a cave of life under the tent on the right. In Project M it's is widely considered banned even with tornadoes removed because of camping and being overly large.
In the 6-14-15 direct the stage seems to be slightly smalled than in Smash 64 compared to the character sizes. I predict this stage will be considered suspect, possibly a legal counter-pick in doubles.

I think it's kind of funny how we're getting the most legal friendly multilayer stages from Smash 64 such as Dream Land, Kongo Jungle, Peach's Castle, and Hyrule Castle. Although these stages may or may not be considered legal today they were in Smash 64 and add a nostalgic factor into Smash 4.

 

[J_the_Man]

For regions that use Kongo Jungle 64, do you guys experience any issues with barrel camping?

 

[Jaxas]

For regions that use Kongo Jungle 64, do you guys experience any issues with barrel camping?

We haven't, yet at least. The Villager Balloon Trip nerf hurts that a bit by removing one of the main potential offenders, too

 

[J_the_Man]

We haven't, yet at least. The Villager Balloon Trip nerf hurts that a bit by removing one of the main potential offenders, too

The barrel refreshes ballon trip completely though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We haven't, yet at least. The Villager Balloon Trip nerf hurts that a bit by removing one of the main potential offenders, too

The balloon fuel thing doesn't reset when entering the barrel?

 

[Jaxas]

The barrel refreshes ballon trip completely though.

The balloon fuel thing doesn't reset when entering the barrel?

Wow, how did I actually not think of that? Ignore me, Villager still has potential for that I guess.

Either way though, we haven't had any issues with that here

 

[Ulevo]

Can people check for me and test to see if the ceiling bug with Mario Circuit has been patched or dealt with?

 

[Luigi player]

Imo it should be like this:

Best stages (starter):
- Smashville
- Omegas & FD
- Town & City
- Dreamland 64
- Battlefield (/ Miiverse)

Decent stages (CP):
- Lylat Cruise
- Castle Siege
- Duck Hunt

On the edge (CP):
- Delfino

Should be tested as CP:
- Kongo Jungle 64
- Wuhu Island

Banned:
- Halberd
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- and everything else


Explainations:

Wuhu Island pretty much didn't get a chance almost everywhere, and should be tried out.
The only thing that could be a problem is it's big size, everything else seems fine and not any worse than Delfino. The boat instant KO could've been avoided easily so even with that it shouldn't be a problem, but it appears to be patched away anyway.

Kongo Jungle might prove to be a little extreme and a really really bad (too bad) stage for some MUs.
But it isn't really tested too much, and aside from the (at this point almost completely theoretical) barrel-camping and maybe jumping from side to side on the top platforms to give some characters a really hard time there isn't much wrong with it. It has pretty big blastzones, but the stagesize is smaller, meaning there could be more combat. Camping should be the only thing that holds it back from being allowed, but the "great and unbeatable/broken camping game" is almost completely theory at this point.

Delfino is on the edge imo. For now it can stick as a CP stage, but the low blastzones on the transformations are definitely not something good. You can try to avoid combat in these situations so you don't get killed early, which is why it can be acceptable. If it turns out to pretty much always get banned by everyone, maybe it will go to the banned section in a year or more, or maybe it'll even get patched. For the time being if you don't want to play on it you can ban it.

Halberd is too much, with the low ceiling being always there, so there's no way to hide. Combos that lead into superearly kills are the problem here, not that you might get a kill ~10-20 % earlier from your vertical killmoves. The hazards are a little problem too, but not too drastic.

Dreamland 64 is different enough from BF and the Miiverse stage to get it's own place.
The lower platforms are smaller and a little higher up giving more room to land and just fight in the air.
The top blastzone is lower and the side blastzones about the same as BF (you KO a few % earlier on Dreamland). The main stage is also different and there's also the wind.

The Miiverse stage is almost identical to BF in terms of blastzone and above the stage-level.
On the sides you KO a few % earlier, but the top is the same as BF. Since it's almost the same I don't think it should be its own stage.


As for the announced stages: the Mario 64 stage could be a CP. I really liked the stage and how it works. It's also one of the biggest classics along with Dreamland 64 to me. I'd definitely like to try it out as a counterpick stage and unless anything stupid is possible there or if it turns out to play unplayable I don't think it should go to banned.

 

[J_the_Man]

Why are low ceilings a bannable offense?

 

[Pyr]

I can't think of a stage that has been banned purely because of it's blast zones. Unless I'm missing something, all stage bans have been for something that is unrelated to them. If we can start banning because the blast zones are small, can we ban for them being big? People living for 5 minutes a stock (hyperbole) is arguably worse then dying early.

 

[Infinite901]

Banned:
- Pokemon Stadium 2.

Mind explaining this? (not trying to be condescending, legitimately wondering)

I can't think of a stage that has been banned purely because of it's blast zones. Unless I'm missing something, all stage bans have been for something that is unrelated to them. If we can start banning because the blast zones are small, can we ban for them being big? People living for 5 minutes a stock (hyperbole) is arguably worse then dying early.

That's because we never HAVE banned a stage for it's blast zones. We never have and it's not good reasoning. It just makes it favor characters, which is exactly what counterpicking is for.

 

[Pyr]

Mind explaining this? (not trying to be condescending, legitimately wondering)
That's because we never HAVE banned a stage for it's blast zones. We never have and it's not good reasoning. It just makes it favor characters, which is exactly what counterpicking is for.

That's what I figured. The justification is extremely poor and the blast zones for stages are some of the main reasons stages are chosen over others for counterpicks. Would seem silly to ban for one of the major counterpicking reasons.

 

[Ghostbone]

Mind explaining this? (not trying to be condescending, legitimately wondering)
That's because we never HAVE banned a stage for it's blast zones. We never have and it's not good reasoning. It just makes it favor characters, which is exactly what counterpicking is for.

There's a difference between a low ceiling leading to fox killing 10% earlier with u-smash, and a low ceiling leading to you being combo'd off the top at 30%. A low ceiling hasn't ever been an issue like this in previous smash games (fox in melee kills earlier on a bunch of stages, but not that much earlier except for corneria)

It's the same reason we have permanent walk-offs banned

 

[Pyr]

Like how Falco Shining floaties off the top of Yoshi's Story at low percents hasn't been an issue?

And no, it is not the same reason we have walk-offs banned.

 

[Ghostbone]

Like how Falco Shining floaties off the top of Yoshi's Story at low percents hasn't been an issue?

And no, it is not the same reason we have walk-offs banned.

One move in one matchup (falco vs jiggs) that only works when you don't DI. (and still won't kill you as early as smash 4 stuff)
In a game where you have 4 stocks because of all the low % kills that are possible.

Compared with a whole abundance of moves due to rage and lower falling speed of the cast, in a game with two stocks where the norm is living much longer.

Stop strawmanning

And why do we have walk-offs banned then? They're banned because stupid low% kills that come from being that close to the blast zone constantly create more variance in competition, it's the exact same on halberd.

 

[Pyr]

It worked on Peach as well. And a few others. And obscenely early kills that are matchup specific. And every instance has double the effect because of the roster list. But hey. Smash4's entire cast is obviously capable of this, so it's a much different issue! Oh.. Wait. Most of the instances are character specific or matchup specific?! Exactly like Yoshi's! Who'd a thunk it?

Only person "strawmanning" is you. (Wasn't a strawman btw. Accusing people of things they aren't doing isn't a valid argument)

Walkoffs are banned because of the gameplay that is forced to occur on them, not the result of that gameplay. It is can't be compared directly simply because of the nature of both issues. You have to stretch really, really far to make a comparison (like you are) because they are separate issues. One has early kills, and the other essentially stops the game from being played.

No, Halberd shouldn't be banned because it has a low top blastzone. It should be banned because of it's hazards. Either way, though, it's not like it's going to be a starter.

 

[Ghostbone]

It worked on Peach as well. And a few others.

It really doesn't, maybe extremely rarely. (and again, DI is a thing)
Nonviable characters don't count (and who are you even referring to there, kirby?)

And obscenely early kills that are matchup specific. And every instance has double the effect because of the roster list. But hey. Smash4's entire cast is obviously capable of this, so it's a much different issue! Oh.. Wait. Most of the instances are character specific or matchup specific?! Exactly like Yoshi's! Who'd a thunk it?

Err, they're not character or matchup specific in smash 4, it's like every move that sends you up with high base knockback. (there are a few outliers that get noticed more, like rosalina, but it's not like the blastzone's only a problem in those cases)
I don't know what game you're playing

Only person "strawmanning" is you. (Wasn't a strawman btw. Accusing people of things they aren't doing isn't a valid argument)

You compared my argument to banning yoshi's in melee, said that in that case it's not an issue (and thus shouldn't be banned), implying my argument is invalid. That's a strawman. There are numerous aspects that make the two circumstances (halberd in smash 4 and yoshi's in melee) different. You can't argue that because yoshi's isn't banned, halberd shouldn't be, it's not relevant.

Walkoffs are banned because of the gameplay that is forced to occur on them, not the result of that gameplay. It is can't be compared directly simply because of the nature of both issues. You have to stretch really, really far to make a comparison (like you are) because they are separate issues. One has early kills, and the other essentially stops the game from being played.

lolwut.
Walkoffs don't stop the game from being played, pretty sure delfino and castle siege are fine during their transitions. The whole reason they're banned is tradition from previous games, but if you analyse it, it's because of the stupid risk that approaching near the blast zone creates because both characters are at kill % really early. It's the same on Halberd, a lot of situations put you at extreme risk of losing your stock at low %s because of rage or just high base knockback and the close proximity of the top blastzone.

Again I must stress, it's not just that things kill earlier on Halberd, (fox killing earlier is fine) it's that gimmicks that wouldn't kill you on any other stage now take your stock.

When you counter-pick halberd (and delfino, but delfino is generally ok because it's temporary) you're looking to gimmick your opponent for the win, or at least have a higher chance of defeating someon better than you because of the high variance of the stage (through really early kills and hazards), it's not conducive to competitive gameplay.

No, Halberd shouldn't be banned because it has a low top blastzone. It should be banned because of it's hazards. Either way, though, it's not like it's going to be a starter.

Well I at least agree that the hazards are enough to ban it on their own (halberd really should have been banned in Brawl), the blastzone just compounds the issue and I'll argue against Halberd using any of its negative aspects because it's a stage far worse for competition than already banned stages.

 

[J_the_Man]

I don't believe my question has been satisfactorily answered: why are small blastzones bad? Both players have access to their use. Sure, there are some characters that are able to take more advantage of them than others, but it's not like one player has unique command over stage elements. Both players can kill off the top, so a more skilled opponent can easily gimmick his way to victory just as much as the other guy. I don't see the problem other than it's obnoxious and people don't like it (neither of which are valid arguments nor should they be).

 

[Kanzaki]

Has there ever been any discussion to split Omega stages into two groups: Walls and No Walls. I was never a fan of wanting to pick a stage with walls as it benefit my character in recovering, and my opponent says no and would rather go to regular FD/Omega with no walls. Gives the feeling as allowing my opponent to have "half" a ban during counter picks.

 

[J_the_Man]

Mario Circuit Wii U Ceiling glitch is still there.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Mind explaining this? (not trying to be condescending, legitimately wondering)

PS2 transformations are extremely dramatic and disruptive for gameplay. Conveyor Belts, ice, Wind... They all change how the game is played. And pretty sure there's even some worse stuff I'm forgetting.

 

[dav3yb]

Has there ever been any discussion to split Omega stages into two groups: Walls and No Walls. I was never a fan of wanting to pick a stage with walls as it benefit my character in recovering, and my opponent says no and would rather go to regular FD/Omega with no walls. Gives the feeling as allowing my opponent to have "half" a ban during counter picks.

If it's your pick then the opponent should have zero say in the matter, if he does for some **** reason sounds like the TO is garbage.

And Pokemon Stadium 2 is fine, the various forms aren't even as bad as people say.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

PS2 transformations are extremely dramatic and disruptive for gameplay. Conveyor Belts, ice, Wind... They all change how the game is played. And pretty sure there's even some worse stuff I'm forgetting.

A little bit vague here. Can you explain why you see each of these as disruptive to competetive gameplay? I find each of your examples are interesting mechanics that reward knowledge and control of them.

Except wind. I'm willing to admit wind sucks, but 3 outta 4 ain't bad