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Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

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MysteriousSilver

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As far as rudder stalling, don't most rulesets already have a clause about intentionally stalling the game/making it so your character cannot be approached, or was that just in the Brawl days? Because there's no grey area on rudder stalling. If they're just waiting under the boat, it's pretty clear that they're intentionally stalling to absolutely anyone.

I'm not necessarily saying the stage should be legal (though I played many matches on it without issue in Brawl) but I don't know about banning it for this reason.
 

Ansou

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As far as rudder stalling, don't most rulesets already have a clause about intentionally stalling the game/making it so your character cannot be approached, or was that just in the Brawl days? Because there's no grey area on rudder stalling. If they're just waiting under the boat, it's pretty clear that they're intentionally stalling to absolutely anyone.

I'm not necessarily saying the stage should be legal (though I played many matches on it without issue in Brawl) but I don't know about banning it for this reason.
Most rulesets that I have seen actually don't have a rule like that. Of course rudder stalling is pretty obvious when it happens and won't be happening unintentionally, so enforcing a rule against it wouldn't be that difficult. The stage has some other problems too though, like the bombs and being able to backthrow people into the ship for an insta-KO (although that's extremely dependant on positioning and timing) and the fact that Jigglypuff's rest is completely horrifying for anyone trying to approach her in the water.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Yeah sure, you might "understand" the stage's concept in general by knowing that you should avoid the light but it's not really that simple. You need to have actually played on the stage quite a bit to know exactly how you should avoid the light. Which is probably why ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone never even got hit by Mom but the other people died by it all the time. So even if you understand the basic concept of the stage, you need to actually learn how to deal with it which takes a bit more effort. I'm guessing that's what people mean when they say that they don't want to bother learning the stages.
To elaborate, it's due to the fact that Mom can appear on Gamer in several different ways. Pop Quiz: List them all.

1. Doorway
2a. Window, left side
2b. Window, right side
3a. TV
3b. TV again, this time emerging fully and walking back and forth with her vision active
4. Sketchboard easel thing
5. Game console

I find that besides the last two (which are rare stage objects and thus not always present), the one that gets people the most often is when Mom fully comes out of the TV and walks around, then falls asleep before waking up and doing another surprise vision burst before walking out of the room with her vision still active. No one sees any of this coming unless they know it's a possibility in advance. It's signaled by thoroughly ominous music, but most public setups make it hard to hear.

So fighting on Gamer all but requires you to consciously hold back so that you're not caught out where Mom can see you. If you feel like being risky, you can try and judge how fast her vision is moving toward the stage and gamble on your ability to position yourself properly, but "optimal play" and "combos" and "followups" take on an entirely different meaning on that stage and I know for a fact that failing to account for this shift will get you killed in a hurry, whether by Mom or by an opponent who does know and takes advantage of it.

To reiterate: I'm not seriously advocating for Gamer as a legal stage (although that would be amazing and hilarious and I'd love to see it), it's simply the most recent example I can personally cite and therefore convenient for my purposes.
 

epicnights

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I'd like to drum up some discussion on a controversial Brawl stage: Norfair. With the changes to ledge mechanics, is the stage able to be considered a possible counter pick once again, or are the hazards too hazardous for it to be worth the platform play?
 

Wintropy

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I'd like to drum up some discussion on a controversial Brawl stage: Norfair. With the changes to ledge mechanics, is the stage able to be considered a possible counter pick once again, or are the hazards too hazardous for it to be worth the platform play?
I personally think it's in the same category as Gamer, i.e. it probably has potential to be legal, but does there come a point at which you're fighting the stage more than the other players?

I'd be okay with it, for what it's worth. You can see where everything is coming and when, and if I recall correctly, you can just shield or spotdodge the lava wave even if you don't get into the capsule (might be wrong on that).

I don't think it's going to be deemed legal even in open-minded stage lists, but I don't think there's anything objectively broken about it.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I personally think it's in the same category as Gamer, i.e. it probably has potential to be legal, but does there come a point at which you're fighting the stage more than the other players?

I'd be okay with it, for what it's worth. You can see where everything is coming and when, and if I recall correctly, you can just shield or spotdodge the lava wave even if you don't get into the capsule (might be wrong on that).

I don't think it's going to be deemed legal even in open-minded stage lists, but I don't think there's anything objectively broken about it.
Bolded part is 100% correct. All of Norfair's hazards can be shielded. (And spotdodged, counterattacked, super armored, etc.)

FWIW the stage is also an amazing anti-Luma counterpick since Rosalina has a really hard time keeping it safe from all the lava. She can shield everything, but Luma can't, and it'll eat a ton of damage in the process.
 
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Honestly, rudder stalling isn't even safe for the staller; if they so much as tap the bow of the ship when in the water, they're getting spiked. It's the other stuff it has that I think would be much more likely to warrant Pirate Ship being banned.
 

teluoborg

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Sorry for the late answer
There's a lot of baggage to address here.

I'm not convinced the term "intrusion" means any more than "jank". What defines an element that is intruding versus one that is a "natural" part of the game? If there were no stage, everyone would just fall off the bottom blast zone and the winner would be whoever can stall in the air the most. Is the ground not interfering with that? Do platforms interfere with movement by the same logic? How is a ceiling's position an interference? If Delfino has a low ceiling at one time, maybe it is an interference that Final Destination does not. If I really like platforms, can I call it an interference that Final Destination doesn't have them since it's interfering with my natural game plan?
The answer to that is yes, what is considered too intrusive is subjective and depends on what people believe to be the ideal competitive environment. This ideal varies from player to player so different people will answer differently to what they consider to be too intrusive. But even with this variation to what people can find intrusive or not, pretty much everyone agrees that the 5 basic stages are not too intrusive. There can be exceptions that, like you said, find the absence of platforms on FD to not fit their competitive ideal, but those are far from being the majority or even a significant minority.

What you said about Peach's Castle sums it up for me. Of course being on the bottom (and in the center) offers you a positional advantage. Being in the middle of Final Destination offers you an advantage. Standing under BF's platforms can offer you an advantage. Charizard standing under Duck Hunt's tree can get a great advantage with his uthrow. Getting positional advantages by exploiting stage features is a core aspect of smash gameplay, and all players on all stages will be doing it all of the time. I just don't understand the alleged difference between what moving and transforming stages have and what static stages have. When I play, I don't use a different mental process to decide "I should stand under a platform" versus deciding "I should move the Halberd laser targeting me to the ledge". It's all just stage position optimization based on the current context. To me, static stages are intrinsically more egregious than moving ones because moving stages don't allow anyone to become entrenched in a position and offer different characters different advantages at different times while static stages allow for the really big advantages.
Yes, being under Peach's Castle platform is a positional advantage but it is not similar to a positional advantage at the center of FD or under the tree of duck hunt. You can easily approach and threaten this position by simply closing the distance and if people want to maintain a degree of safety they have to abandon their position or take action.
This is not true for Peach's Castle as you cannot safely threaten the position of someone who is standing under the platform. If anything it can be compared to the bottom wing of the plane in Pilowings or the sun gate on Delfino.

It just seems really arbitrary to me to decide some stage elements are "bad", "janky", "interfering", or whatever words will be used. I see stages have several real impacts on matches: they offer character advantages/disadvantages, they can have random elements that increase match variance, and they can (if particularly poorly designed) cause slippery slope wherein whoever is winning has a big advantage over whoever is losing (Jungle Hijinx is the main stage with this strange and undesirable property). To me, as long as a stage is reasonably well balanced across match-ups and reasonably non-swingy, it should be legal. I am totally unconvinced Delfino or Skyloft or any of those are more swingy than static stages, and I'm entirely convinced they're actually more character balanced.
Again yes, those values that will make some people call a stage janky or will make you call a stage balanced are completely subjective. There is no absolute way to determine if a stage is intrusive or not, just a relative way to tell that one stage is more/less intrusive than another.

...On the other side, we have had several local tournaments that had the starter list of FD/BF/SV/T&C/DL. This really hurts our local Sonics since Sonic is really disadvantaged by three of those stages; as long as the opponent is smart enough to strike FD and T&C, Sonic is forced to a bad stage game one which really does cause those players to lose to people they should beat.
And having a stage list with no permanent walkoffs hurt LM mains. I don't think stage lists should be created to enhance an under performing character or strategy but rather to diminish an overbearing one. edit nmv I'm ********. You're right about people deserving to lose on a stage they aren't familiar with. Rulesets are published in advance for a reason.



Have you ever seen someone use the Smashville camping strategy? Use a character with a good grab game and fight against someone who has a bad (or non-existent) projectile and a lackluster ability to approach from the air. Get a 30% or more lead, get on the platform, stay on the platform, and start playing for a time-out. The movement of the platform makes it way easier to keep up for a long time, way stronger than sitting on a non-moving platform on BF or something. It's really dumb, and it makes a lot of MUs really stupid. If you thought Sonic was good on SV in my previous paragraph, this is why he's not (his ability to deal with this is one of the worst). I'm always amazed at how rarely people do this, and I'm always amazed at how powerful this is for me when I go for it. Combined with the (substantial) other shenanigans that platform allows (and how strongly character polarizing it is), I see it as the stage of all plausibly legal stages most likely to produce poor gameplay. I really don't think it should be banned, but I don't think it's much better than "good enough".
No I haven't seen it (which is pretty surprising because I live in Paris which is the city of Smashville), please provide a video or two showing it.
I'll prevent myself from commenting too much on that strategy until I've seen it in action, but from what you're describing it looks pretty situational and matchup dependant. I mean, who has bad aerial approaches in this game besides Little Mac ? Especially from under a platform.
The only time I could see approaching someone on the platform from the ground being a bad idea is when the platform is at its extremes where you're risking an early death from a grab while waiting for 5s fixes the problem. And that technique is not as degenerate as camping a walkoff on Castle Siege for 43s straight.
 
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topspin1617

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But a lot of people want to ban characters just because they're new and don't know how to deal with them. Except instead of Mewtwo Roy Lucas Ryu it's Mii Brawler Mii Swordfighter and Mii Gunner
How are the Miis "new"? They've existed since launch.

And as I understand it, the real argument against Miis isn't "wahhh they're new", but rather issues like Mii size and what custom setups should be allowed. Size is easily addressed by requiring a standard Mii (though an argument could be made for any size as just another customizable option). Custom moves are no issue in a customs meta, obviously. If custom specials are NOT allowed, the debate then becomes whether Miis should be forced to go 1111 or whether they can still use any moves (or, I suppose, whether they should be allowed at all). My position would be that, if only for the sake of fairness and consistency, you should be stuck with 1111 in a no customs tournament (as I understand it, people seem to almost universally agree with this on Palutena, but then see the Miis as somehow different). Though, in general, I'd prefer a customs on environment to become the standard, if only because I like the variety it can bring and because it adds an extra layer of depth to the game, particularly as it relates to counterpicking characters. (A lot of specials have a clear optimal option, but for most one can imagine certain matchups or playstyles that would make a different choice effective. I really like the idea that you could choose a set to better respond to what your opponent is doing.) I just wish there was a way to edit custom specials from the CSS, like on the 3DS.

Yeah sure, you might "understand" the stage's concept in general by knowing that you should avoid the light but it's not really that simple. You need to have actually played on the stage quite a bit to know exactly how you should avoid the light. Which is probably why ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone never even got hit by Mom but the other people died by it all the time. So even if you understand the basic concept of the stage, you need to actually learn how to deal with it which takes a bit more effort. I'm guessing that's what people mean when they say that they don't want to bother learning the stages.

And yes, this argument is definitely used. In many cases it comes in the form "I don't want stage awareness to be a part of the game. You should only have to worry about your opponent and not about the stage." In other cases it might be "There is too much to learn for newer players, making the entry barrier larger." Or they just make arguments that simply shows a lack of understanding of the stage.

No, we should not assume that most people are scrubs and argue this way. But the sad truth is that many people do. I would definitely want to ignore arguments like this, but when the TOs go by the loudest opinions or majority, it just doesn't really matter.
Yes, it's true that even if it's easy to understand the concept of a stage, practice and experience are needed to fully master dealing with hazards and/or exploiting them. But again, for the most part this isn't something that requires a huge time investment... mastering a stage mechanic is nothing compared to mastering a character. So, yes, scrubs will whine about learning a stage, but it's a totally ridiculous argument that shouldn't be taken seriously at all. It does NOT take a huge amount of effort to really learn any stage.

The alternative phrasings you list are all silly for similar reasons. Stage awareness is a huge part of the game, even on something like FD or Battlefield. I definitely wouldn't file this under "higher entry barrier" because this is VERY low on the list of things that a newer player needs to be comfortable with to compete.

If a TO makes determinations based on the loudest people, that's an issue with the TO, and frankly I'd be more concerned with finding a TO who can conduct tournaments in a more logical way than with worrying about people making ridiculous arguments against particular stages.
 

Routa

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A reminder to all... Smash Bros is a PLATHFORM FIGHTING game. Smash Bros might lack Tekken like button combos, but Smash Bros tests your multitasking skills (plathforming and combat). You have to weight your options. For example: should you wait in Halberd till the lazer is gone or try to grab the foe and throw him/her/it in to lazer?

Size is easily addressed by requiring a standard Mii (though an argument could be made for any size as just another customizable option).
As a Mii Swordfigher main I have to say Guest size Mii is one of the worst characters in game (all 3) even when you give them their fancy moves. Many don't realise how much of a impact size has. Think about Sheik. Now give her speed of Ganondorf. Yeah... Not so top tier anymore. Different sizes allow different types of combos and new ways to get kills. The thing is that only Swordfighter has some ACs when in Guest size (50/50 size), but his mobility is as horribly as on other 2 Mii's.

Anyways back to stage discussion. Many seem to dislike stages with any kind of hazards. For example Brinstar from 3DS version. A perfectly fine stage. Great plathform layout, main plathform is passable which makes the stage great for characters like Wario, Mii Swordfighter, Jigglypuff, Meta Knight and Pit(s). Also the lava adds a new way to deal damage, extend combos and more KO options which is makes this stage good for Ike, Shulk, Ganondorf, Doc, Mario, Marth etc. And this stage is agreed to be a legal stage... Yet maybe 1-2 tournaments use it. Why? 'Cause Lava. It saddens me to see stages with great potential are just not used in tournaments 'cause some one doesn't want to spend time on learning new things that stage may bring (good example being PS2). I have to admit that even I hated stages with hazards, but the more I played the stages the more I started to understand the stage.

I would compare TOs into Politicians. Most of them don't give a **** which is the best for the game/country and are more interested in other things like pleasing the loudest people (usually the not the most brilliant people). But there are also TOs and Politicians that understand what is the best for the game/country.
 

Ansou

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Yes, it's true that even if it's easy to understand the concept of a stage, practice and experience are needed to fully master dealing with hazards and/or exploiting them. But again, for the most part this isn't something that requires a huge time investment... mastering a stage mechanic is nothing compared to mastering a character. So, yes, scrubs will whine about learning a stage, but it's a totally ridiculous argument that shouldn't be taken seriously at all. It does NOT take a huge amount of effort to really learn any stage.

The alternative phrasings you list are all silly for similar reasons. Stage awareness is a huge part of the game, even on something like FD or Battlefield. I definitely wouldn't file this under "higher entry barrier" because this is VERY low on the list of things that a newer player needs to be comfortable with to compete.

If a TO makes determinations based on the loudest people, that's an issue with the TO, and frankly I'd be more concerned with finding a TO who can conduct tournaments in a more logical way than with worrying about people making ridiculous arguments against particular stages.
Just to be clear, I'm not absolutely not saying that arguments like these should be considered when deciding rulesets, I'm just saying that there are most definitely people using these arguments. I was trying to argue for the legalization of custom specials and Skyloft in tourneys but apparently the TO of BEAST 6 (hello @Lolex ) didn't accept that...
 
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IIRC, the reason Skyloft isn't legal at tourneys is because of the problems it poses to streams with it's music; it's just much more simple to ban the offending stage than try some convoluted legal work so they can play it on stream.
 

ParanoidDrone

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IIRC, the reason Skyloft isn't legal at tourneys is because of the problems it poses to streams with it's music; it's just much more simple to ban the offending stage than try some convoluted legal work so they can play it on stream.
This was only an issue at Apex and Evo since they were officially sponsored by Nintendo and had actual legal contracts written up that said what music they could and couldn't stream. The details are unknown because yay NDAs, but my hypothesis is that they simply looked at the stage list and explicitly allowed them to stream their BGMs and only their BGMs, instead of saying "you cannot stream music tracks XYZ and all others are fair game". I doubt Nintendo or anyone else will care about music streaming issues for locals and regionals.

On a different note, I had an idea earlier today about what people like (and don't like) in a stage, and also a bit about the meaning of "jank". Basically, with a few exceptions, the current favored stages (Apex/Evo list + Dream Land/Miiverse) are pretty good about not forcing the player into unusual situations. And the ones that are hated (Lylat's tilting, Duck Hunt's dog, Castle Siege's transformations, Halberd's cannon, Delfino's ceiling shenanigans) all fall pretty squarely into "unusual". You can also see them coming if you're willing to split your attention between the fight and the stage for a few seconds, but still. Unusual.

Similarly, I think "jank" basically means "it does something weird". Lylat was jank when the ledge was unforgiving. Delfino is jank when you die to a ceiling kill at 30%. Castle Siege is jank when the transformation puts you offstage in your rapid jab animation or something. Duck Hunt is jank when the dog pops up under you or your opponent. Halberd is jank when the claw does claw things. Skyloft is jank when the island itself does damage. Wuhu was jank when the boat glitch existed. (Obligatory reminder that it was patched out ages ago.) For characters, Rosalina is jank when Luma can save her from...basically anything, or kill with sweetspot utilt at 0% with max rage or whatever.

Jank does not mean unpredictable, or random, or can't-be-accounted-for. It just means weird. I think that's why I hate the argument so much, since IMO half the point of Smash is the inherent weirdness in the game. But that's me.

This may or may not be anything new to some people. But I've been struggling with a way to properly verbalize these thoughts for a while and I wanted to get it down before I forgot.
 

Krysco

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Update on the stage videos: BF and MV footage is still required but haven't gone further than that since for the time being, my free time is focused on finishing Radiant Dawn (3 chapters left). That being said, I do have an idea I'd like to do to help with some of the future videos. In the recent pages, there has been talk about Peach's Castle 64 and Kongo Jungle 64 a bit and the problems they face being legal stages.

The idea is to see if anyone here would like to demonstrate these problems in a match. For Peach's Castle, show how powerful the bottom center of the stage is, to the point of not being viable and with KJ64, showing how effective circle camping or air camping or barrel or whatever camping is on that stage also to the point of being not viable. I'm not the greatest player but I do use a variety of characters so it can be shown that it's not just one character that faces the issue. I'd also want whoever the demonstrater is to use numerous characters to show that you can't just ban the stage vs one particular character. It'd be wifi and not top level play but neither should be an issue when it comes to showing off powerful features of a stage.

Those two stages are in the middle priority list so they won't be made anytime soon exactly but it would give me a head start for when I do work on them. Same thing will be done with Smashville, showing how strong fair strings can be and any other stage with something worth showing like PS2.
 

Yikarur

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Sadly I don't have footage of the france tournament where I have abused kongo jungle to force timeouts. But it's definitely a real thing and because of the french are not going to have the stage legal ever again 8)
 

ParanoidDrone

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Sadly I don't have footage of the france tournament where I have abused kongo jungle to force timeouts. But it's definitely a real thing and because of the french are not going to have the stage legal ever again 8)
Maybe talk to some RL friends of yours and ask if they'd be willing to do some demonstration matches for you to save and upload?
 

Wintropy

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This was only an issue at Apex and Evo since they were officially sponsored by Nintendo and had actual legal contracts written up that said what music they could and couldn't stream. The details are unknown because yay NDAs, but my hypothesis is that they simply looked at the stage list and explicitly allowed them to stream their BGMs and only their BGMs, instead of saying "you cannot stream music tracks XYZ and all others are fair game". I doubt Nintendo or anyone else will care about music streaming issues for locals and regionals.

On a different note, I had an idea earlier today about what people like (and don't like) in a stage, and also a bit about the meaning of "jank". Basically, with a few exceptions, the current favored stages (Apex/Evo list + Dream Land/Miiverse) are pretty good about not forcing the player into unusual situations. And the ones that are hated (Lylat's tilting, Duck Hunt's dog, Castle Siege's transformations, Halberd's cannon, Delfino's ceiling shenanigans) all fall pretty squarely into "unusual". You can also see them coming if you're willing to split your attention between the fight and the stage for a few seconds, but still. Unusual.

Similarly, I think "jank" basically means "it does something weird". Lylat was jank when the ledge was unforgiving. Delfino is jank when you die to a ceiling kill at 30%. Castle Siege is jank when the transformation puts you offstage in your rapid jab animation or something. Duck Hunt is jank when the dog pops up under you or your opponent. Halberd is jank when the claw does claw things. Skyloft is jank when the island itself does damage. Wuhu was jank when the boat glitch existed. (Obligatory reminder that it was patched out ages ago.) For characters, Rosalina is jank when Luma can save her from...basically anything, or kill with sweetspot utilt at 0% with max rage or whatever.

Jank does not mean unpredictable, or random, or can't-be-accounted-for. It just means weird. I think that's why I hate the argument so much, since IMO half the point of Smash is the inherent weirdness in the game. But that's me.

This may or may not be anything new to some people. But I've been struggling with a way to properly verbalize these thoughts for a while and I wanted to get it down before I forgot.
...Duck Hunt is hated? News to me. Not that I'm disputing your statement, I'm just a bit shocked because I've only ever heard it being described as a fundamentally fair stage (except for Mac / Ganondorf / Doc / any character with non-existent recovery options, but let's ignore the gravitationally challenged).

Otherwise I absolutely agree with your thesis. "Jank" is a platitude. It doesn't explain how or why the offending ephemera is undesirable or "broken"; it just offers the suggestion that "this is different, I don't want to play different".

I can see where people are coming from when they say a stage is unfair in its design or expects too much of the player; there does come a time when you're fighting the stage more than the opponent (any stage with random, unpredictable or otherwise unavoidable hazards - debatably Gamer and Norfair (which I don't see an issue with, personally), NOT Halberd), or when you need to engage the stage in some kind of physical test before you can engage the opponent (the walls in Luigi's Mansion, the platforms in Skyworld). In that kind of scenario, I can understand not wanting to go to a particular stage. The point of the game, after all, is to fight the opponent and not the stage's topography or hazards.

That said, I think a certain degree of "jank" (to purloin the popular parlance) is fine, and indeed, healthy. I know certain folk will advocate for a fundamentally neutral, safe paradigm of stage viability, and that's okay. For some, the stage should serve as a setting for the fight and nothing more, rather than a distinct entity that intervenes in the fight on behalf of one, more or neither party; we can infer that to be the rationale behind Sakurai's decision to make For Glory a series of Final Destination-esque stages, since that represents the most neutral stage possible whilst still creating a dynamic atmosphere that works within the context of Smash's basic principles (i.e. knock the other guy off and recover if you're knocked off, which a walkoff or similar stage without edges would invalidate). We add platforms and things to make it even more dynamic and to ensure a healthy variety of characters and strategies can involve themselves in the fight, without creating a (debatably) unnecessary risk to the fighters (except for cases such as the two side platforms in Town & City, platforms won't kill or put the fighter in danger, and even then you have to be in a very specific situation for it to happen). I get that. I'm happy with that, if that's what people want to do.

My reservation isn't with conservative stage choice, it's with the rationale behind it and especially the choice of wording to justify it. I don't think Halberd or Delfino should be banned because "they're jank, end of". That isn't a valid refutation, that's a john. A valid refutation is, "I don't think Halberd should be valid because the low ceilings favour characters with strong vertical kill options and the stage hazards can intervene unfavourably in the fight." I don't agree with the statement, but I can respect the opposition's desire to justify the process behind their choice. Unfortunately, too often the semantics of the debate boil down to who can make the most noise and which opinion happens to prevail in a certain context. Choices should not be made based on hysterical reaction and refusal to educate oneself, which is why I find it sad and distressing that that tends to happen more often than not in this kind of debate.
 

KeithTheGeek

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone hate Duck Hunt specifically because of the dog. Most people that dislike the stage tend to hate it because of the unorthodox stage layout. I personally don't like playing on it because it's a rather large stage and the tree specifically tends to heavily favor characters with good mobility. If anything the Dog is my favorite part of the stage because you can influence where he appears and possibly take advantage of that.

Regardless, my own distaste for Duck Hunt aside I don't have a problem with having the stage in the stage list.
 

RIP|Merrick

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As a Luigi main who can barely keep up to characters with significantly better mobility on cramped stages, I personally detest Duck Hunt for that particular layout and strike it immediately against the likes of Greninja, Sheik, etc. Bias aside though, the stage is fine enough, prone to timeouts in particular matchups but there's nothing really fundamentally bad about it. It's a nice, tame stage. It's funny, too, of all the stages I hadn't heard about prior to the Wii U release, and this ended up being the surprise legal one! :)
 
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MrGame&Rock

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I have officially dropped Wuhu Island from my pool of usable stages. I've been playing on it for almost a year now, ever since I got this game. The transformations are fine. The sharking is fine. The concept of the stage is completely fine. What is NOT fine is how BIG the traveling portions of the stage are. There's big stages and then there's THIS. I could get a taunt off at the start of any game on Wuhu before my opponent could do anything!

There are elements of the stage that are very well-designed, like how if you try to use the low ground on the boat transformation to camp, you'll end up on the higher ground after and immediately enter a disadvantageous position. But that still doesn't excuse the uncomfortable size of the stage in general. Removing it from random select felt like shooting Old Yeller, but it had to be done.

This leaves KJ64 as the only stage I use that isn't considered legal in my local scene. (Nebulous and Westchester County) Kinda can't believe I went from advocating Skyloft and Wuhu as starters to dropping both. Though if skyloft loses the building hitboxes I will gladly take it back, and I still think it's the best of the three traveling stages. Wuhu is probably beyond any easy repairs, at least for me. Did anyone else try these stages and ultimately drop them?
 
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AoS~Akito

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PS2 was somehow legal in a weekly I was in. So to **** around, I picked PS2 if I lost a match, and tbh PS2 never really felt that bad of a stage. But tbh we didn't get the wind part or the electric part of the stage. If it didn't have either of those two transformations (and maybe take out ice), then the stage would be a lot better. I don't want wuhu island and skyloft legal because they are too similar to delphino imo.
 

TheJolteon

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I really want skyloft unbanned because it is very similiar to delfino and castle siege which are both legal. The reason why its banned is probably because of walkoffs and some stage shenanigans but delfino and castle siege both have that too. Not too mention really good music, a good view and pretty good platform locations when flying around.
 

MrGame&Rock

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I really want skyloft unbanned because it is very similiar to delfino and castle siege which are both legal. The reason why its banned is probably because of walkoffs and some stage shenanigans but delfino and castle siege both have that too. Not too mention really good music, a good view and pretty good platform locations when flying around.
The reason why I don't play on it anymore is that on the traveling portion of the stage, sometimes you pass through buildings that can hit you for damage and a lot of knockback. It's not telegraphed at all and can change the match in an instant, and it's a bit too much to bear when playing on it. It's a shame, too, because otherwise I agree with you and if that part was removed I'd use it in a heartbeat
 

Mrdiscount

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The reason why I don't play on it anymore is that on the traveling portion of the stage, sometimes you pass through buildings that can hit you for damage and a lot of knockback. It's not telegraphed at all and can change the match in an instant, and it's a bit too much to bear when playing on it. It's a shame, too, because otherwise I agree with you and if that part was removed I'd use it in a heartbeat
Also once I was playing on skyloft, I fell through the platform, and lost a stock and that could change a match so easily.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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Also once I was playing on skyloft, I fell through the platform, and lost a stock and that could change a match so easily.
That's happened on every sharkable stage, and many of them are legal, so it's not fair to single out skyloft for that. But I see what you mean.
 

AoS~Akito

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I agree. Let's also ban DL64, Miiverse and Lylat Cruise 'cause they are all too similar to BF.

/s
Miiverse and BF are categorized as the same stage, just like how omegas and fd are categorized the same. Lylat isn't close to BF or DL 64 due to slanted portions and tilting of main platform. Also BF and DL64 are practically neutral stages. Having 3 janky cp stages that are similar to each other in terms of the gimmick is pretty stupid. Delphino is good enough.
 

Pazx

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Miiverse and BF are categorized as the same stage, just like how omegas and fd are categorized the same. Lylat isn't close to BF or DL 64 due to slanted portions and tilting of main platform. Also BF and DL64 are practically neutral stages. Having 3 janky cp stages that are similar to each other in terms of the gimmick is pretty stupid. Delphino is good enough.
People pick Delfino for the small stage with small blast zones, people pick Wuhu for the long stage with large blast zones. Characters that are good on Delfino are likely not particularly good on Wuhu, and characters who are good on Wuhu are likely not particularly good on Delfino. It's very obvious that you haven't actually played on the stages very much if at all if you think the fact that they transform is the main factor in their consideration for selection.
 

Ansou

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What is NOT fine is how BIG the traveling portions of the stage are. There's big stages and then there's THIS. I could get a taunt off at the start of any game on Wuhu before my opponent could do anything!
So yeah, the stage is big. But why is that really a problem? It's just one of the defining factors for the stage. Just saying that it's big really doesn't sound like an argument for getting rid of it.

The reason why I don't play on it anymore is that on the traveling portion of the stage, sometimes you pass through buildings that can hit you for damage and a lot of knockback. It's not telegraphed at all and can change the match in an instant, and it's a bit too much to bear when playing on it.
For the last months that I've played on Skyloft, I have not gotten hit by it even once. Have you watched Krysco Krysco 's video on it? There is certainly a pattern. Where there is a building/rock, there is usually a hitbox. When you just realize that and stay away from those structures, it becomes pretty obvious how to avoid the hitboxes.

Having 3 janky cp stages that are similar to each other in terms of the gimmick is pretty stupid. Delphino is good enough.
These stages are not very similar at all. Read through their research threads and discover the differences.
http://smashboards.com/threads/delfino-plaza-stage-research.383852/
http://smashboards.com/threads/wuhu-island-stage-research.379991/
http://smashboards.com/threads/skyloft-stage-research.381192/
So what are the most obvious difference between Battlefield and Smashville? The platform layout. I can tell you that Delfino Plaza and Skyloft definitely don't have the same platform layouts. There are also differences in blastzones, water, transformation time etc. Also, if the stages really were that similar, wouldn't we still allow each of them and put them in the same spot on the stage list, just like we do with FD/Omegas and BF/MV? We don't, because the stages are too different from each other.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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So yeah, the stage is big. But why is that really a problem? It's just one of the defining factors for the stage. Just saying that it's big really doesn't sound like an argument for getting rid of it.
It doesn't create an enjoyable experience for me. On these portions, it's really difficult to approach and if either of us were defensive players the stage would be hell during my smashing sessions with my buddy. Seriously, there wasn't much fun to be had whenever the random select took us to Wuhu. Also, a stage's size is a good argument for getting rid of it. We don't use Big Battlefield or Mario Galaxy because both stages are too big to use, and I see Wuhu in the same way.

For the last months that I've played on Skyloft, I have not gotten hit by it even once. Have you watched Krysco Krysco 's video on it? There is certainly a pattern. Where there is a building/rock, there is usually a hitbox. When you just realize that and stay away from those structures, it becomes pretty obvious how to avoid the hitboxes.
TBH the decision to get rid of Skyloft was my friend's. But I wasn't going to argue with him because you should not have to watch a youtube video to avoid a stage's hazards. On Halberd, the Hazards are all telegraphed and obvious. On a stage like Port Town, the "hit the road during the travel portion" hitboxes are consistent and take minimal effort to learn. Not so with Skyloft. To see those hazards coming, we have to pay attention to the stage's background and take focus away from each other and the match, and that's really not okay.

It pains me to say this because I've been a champion of Skyloft and Wuhu forever, but I just can't have them around anymore. If Skyloft loses the hitboxes, I'll welcome it back with open arms. If my local scene or the national scene has a renewed conversation about Wuhu's legality and there are efforts to re-legalize it, I'll turn Wuhu back on. That's the thing with Wuhu for me: if it were considered legal, it wouldn't be bad enough for me to defy the rules and switch off. But it isn't, and it's not such a natural stage that I'd want to sacrifice time on stages I might actually play on in tournament to play on it.
 

Ajimi

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Also, a stage's size is a good argument for getting rid of it. We don't use Big Battlefield or Mario Galaxy because both stages are too big to use, and I see Wuhu in the same way.
My two cents. Big Battlefield has circle camping, and Mario Galaxy is a permanent walkoff. Wuhu has none of these problems ; I agree with Ansou : size alone is not a good reason to ban a stage.
 

Yikarur

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Size Alone is a very good reason because once a stage is too big, you can run away all the time leading to degenerate gameplay.
 

Ansou

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Size Alone is a very good reason because once a stage is too big, you can run away all the time leading to degenerate gameplay.
Then you would be banning the stage because of stalling tactics being overpowered. But then the question is, can you really run away that efficiently on Wuhu Island?
 

Ghostbone

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Then you would be banning the stage because of stalling tactics being overpowered. But then the question is, can you really run away that efficiently on Wuhu Island?
Depends on the matchup

I'm inclined to say yes, it's much easier to stall on Wuhu than any currently legal stage, including Duck Hunt. Is it too easy on Wuhu? Probably not, at least in the case of someone like Lucario, it balances out the fact that he loves huge blastzones, but if he falls behind on stocks he basically loses to a fast character there.
 

teluoborg

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It's not about matchups but about the meta. The bigger the terrain, the more mobility becomes prevalent. All matchups are affected because in all matchups there is acharacter that is more mobile than the other.
Now the question you want to answer is "how big is too big ?" and its corrolary "how much you do you want mobility to matter in the meta of your tournaments ?" and of course while you're at it "is Wuhu past that threshold ?".

Spoiler : there's no good or bad answer, it's purely subjective.
 

Krysco

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I slacked off greatly but I've finally done it! Here is my video on Battlefield:
Feel free to give any critique. I already have a few things listed that I don't like about the video, namely how quiet I am but I recorded that in the past hour. Not the most useful analysis but it was easy to do and it gives people the chance to give me any pointers/advice.

Oh and ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone if you feel this video is sufficient enough, you can add it to your Battlefield Thread. I've left a link to it in the description.

Next two videos are being Miiverse and Dream Land 64 but after that I'll either pick whatever I'm most comfortable with or take suggestions though I want to tackle the indisputably legal stages first.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Shame I couldn't vote for both, but I picked Wuhu. I want to see Wuhu run at a major, so it can actually be given the chance to shine.
 
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