Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Halifax?]

I think at first glance Kongo Jungle 64 looks similar to all the other legal stages so its status comes in to question a lot. I agree with what's been said, the circle camping is trouble. However, I would say circle camping is less of a problem in doubles too. I'd like to see stages like UCT and KJ64 in doubles, to see how they work out.

 

[Nul]

I'd like to jump back into DH a bit. This is because I just watched 2GGT this last Saturday's videos, and watched a stage meta effect in action.

Some of you know already, I had completely forgotten, DH has no Z-axis. This makes certain moves, like in the video Ness' airdodge worse.

I get it, FOW is my friend, we were even neighbors, I have a bias. But if there's actually a Z-Axis interaction stage vs character, I have a problem with that. A stage changing a character, not just a player's play-style, should not be because that means against certain characters, counter-picking a stage has more power.

Do we have a list on what is actually different between DH / FZ to all other stages pertaining to Z-Axis interactions on characters?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'd like to jump back into DH a bit. This is because I just watched 2GGT this last Saturday's videos, and watched a stage meta effect in action.

Some of you know already, I had completely forgotten, DH has no Z-axis. This makes certain moves, like in the video Ness' airdodge worse.

I get it, FOW is my friend, we were even neighbors, I have a bias. But if there's actually a Z-Axis interaction stage vs character, I have a problem with that. A stage changing a character, not just a player's play-style, should not be because that means against certain characters, counter-picking a stage has more power.

Do we have a list on what is actually different between DH / FZ to all other stages pertaining to Z-Axis interactions on characters?

The difference is so minuscule that it honestly should not even be an argument for banning the stage. That's like saying we should ban Pokemon Stadium in Melee because of that one super rare glitch where you fall through the floor. Yeah, it exists, but it's so rare for it to actually affect the outcome of a game that it doesn't even matter.

Regardless, this is the entire reason the stage striking process exists anyway. If you honestly think that the Z-axis shenanigans are so important that it makes the stage literally unplayable for Ness, then strike it.

 

[Respect38]

It isn't even like Pokémon Stadium tech glitch, because this is a feature of the stage for the purpose of counter-picking. It doesn't matter if it's good or not against certain characters, this is what stage bans ought to be for.

Also, it's not so much that Ness' airdodge is bad on Duck Hunt, but the fact that it's broken to the point of being good on every other stage, in the same vein as Dedede's spotdodge jank in Brawl. Due to a poorly designed animation, Ness is invulnerable [due to being outside the main z-axis of gameplay] for several frames that he is not supposed to be invulnerable for. No reason to ban Duck Hunt just because it removes a janky element of the character, even if that janky element made them better.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Other moves that are affected by Z-axis shenanigans include Greninja's fsmash and DK's ftilt (both get some blind spots filled in with depth taken out of the picture), and I imagine Dedede's spotdodge is less effective unless they changed it from Brawl somehow.

IMO Z-axis should simply be a feature of a stage to take into account, similar to how Lylat's tilting will mess up a fair number of projectiles. You should be prepared to deal with it, or else use a ban.

Other stages with no Z-axis include Flat Zone X, Pac-Land, and Super Mario Maker. This includes their Omega forms.

 

[paperchao]

So do any bigger locals carry umbra anymore? it seems to have fallen off completely for seemingly no reason

 

[Xeze]

So do any bigger locals carry umbra anymore? it seems to have fallen off completely for seemingly no reason

Since it wasn't included in EVO's stagelist, big locals and regionals probably won't use it either.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Umbra and Wuhu literally have the same problems, there's no wonder neither are legal.

imo modders should focus on making stages like this legal above anything

 

[paperchao]

Umbra and Wuhu literally have the same problems, there's no wonder neither are legal.

imo modders should focus on making stages like this legal above anything

Big blastzones? im not following, cus the walkoffs last for like 15 seconds, which is a pretty trivial amount of time

 

[HermitHelmet]

Big blastzones? im not following, cus the walkoffs last for like 15 seconds, which is a pretty trivial amount of time

15 seconds to do some heavy duty camping lol

 

[Omegaphoenix]

15 seconds to do some heavy duty camping lol

15 wasted seconds to accomplish nothing and then put yourself at heavy disadvantage trying to get back to stage lol.

 

[Yikarur]

Ban PS1 in Melee lol
Umbra is perfectly fine. The only real reason I could somehow understand are the visuals, because there are people who get motion sickness of it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ban PS1 in Melee lol
Umbra is perfectly fine. The only real reason I could somehow understand are the visuals, because there are people who get motion sickness of it.

This has nothing to do with the competitive value of Umbra, but after finally playing Bayonetta I now understand why they picked Affinity, Inspired, and Fortitudo to appear in the background. It's because those are the angels you see during the actual falling clock tower scene in the game.

 

[HermitHelmet]

15 wasted seconds to accomplish nothing and then put yourself at heavy disadvantage trying to get back to stage lol.

I don't see how camping someone out with a stage-wide projectile is apparently "nothing", and getting back to the stage in Smash 4 is easy lmao

Ban PS1 in Melee lol
Umbra is perfectly fine. The only real reason I could somehow understand are the visuals, because there are people who get motion sickness of it.

We can't ban PS1 in Melee because then we'd have only 5 Stages, and 4 for Doubles if you ignore Kongo Jungle.

The visuals are extremely distracting though, and I don't suffer from motion sickness at all lol

 

[Yikarur]

The reason PS1 is allowed is because there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[HermitHelmet]

The reason PS1 is allowed is because there is nothing wrong with it.

There's a number of things wrong with it. 2/4 of the transformations promote campy gameplay, it's glitchy, and it's extremely good for Fox.

Other than that it's an alright stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I can but wonder why the "good for X top character" argument works for banning stages in Brawl and Smash 4 but not Melee.
At this point we all just gotta agree that the Melee stagelist is as good as set in stone and it won't get any change again.

Smash 4's has a wide variety of opinions. Too bad the simplistic choice tends to win in the end.

 

[Xeze]

We can't ban PS1 in Melee because then we'd have only 5 Stages, and 4 for Doubles if you ignore Kongo Jungle.

Yet there are people in Smash 4 that support a stagelist with only BF/FD/SV (3 stages). I don't understand why they think it's a good idea...

 

[iVoltage]

Yet there are people in Smash 4 that support a stagelist with only BF/FD/SV (3 stages). I don't understand why they think it's a good idea...

If anything it would work, just would be on the boring side. (Why remove tnc and dreamland though they aren't jank)

 

[paperchao]

If anything it would work, just would be on the boring side. (Why remove tnc and dreamland though they aren't jank)

It also makes it easy to force smashville, it sort of a pseudo 1 stage starter list with all the characters that are good on either Battlefield or fd among the top tiers

 

[HermitHelmet]

Can we all just agree that Clock Tower is unviable and move on?

 

[iVoltage]

IMO we've run the stages dry, the rest are pretty clearly unviable. They all have jank walkoffs you can camp, or stage hazards which disrupt the game. Umbra is a maybe but some of the transitions can be campy. I think the stage setup we have now is fine.

 

[ぱみゅ]

We would, if it were factually unviable. But the general opinion does not care about facts (or the lack of).
The stage is very fair to a lot of people (particularly, a lot of people here), although the average player just won't agree.

 

[Ulevo]

IMO we've run the stages dry, the rest are pretty clearly unviable. They all have jank walkoffs you can camp, or stage hazards which disrupt the game. Umbra is a maybe but some of the transitions can be campy. I think the stage setup we have now is fine.

My sentiments.

Shaya could you lock this thread. I think it has served its function.

 

[HermitHelmet]

We would, if it were factually unviable. But the general opinion does not care about facts (or the lack of).
The stage is very fair to a lot of people (particularly, a lot of people here), although the average player just won't agree.

So, what do we have right now?

Spoiler: List

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Dreamland 64
Miiverse
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
(maybe)
Castle Siege
Halberd
Umbra
(super maybe)
Wuhu
Skyloft

For a full, proper stagelist, drop everything in both "maybe" categories.

Also Ulevo we still need to discuss Pick/Bans, Neutrals and Counterpicks yet lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

My sentiments.

Shaya could you lock this thread. I think it has served its function.

I am a mod here too ;~;

So, what do we have right now?

Spoiler: List

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Dreamland 64
Miiverse
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
(maybe)
Castle Siege
Halberd
Umbra
(super maybe)
Wuhu
Skyloft

For a full, proper stagelist, drop everything in both "maybe" categories.

Also Ulevo we still need to discuss Pick/Bans, Neutrals and Counterpicks yet lol

Why would you call a "Maybe" and then just dismiss them? While the majority of communities go that way, there is nothing but that "majority bias" supporting that list cutout.
Also, Miiverse is more of a maybe as well (due to the 3DS thing).
Alsoalso, FLSS.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Why would you call a "Maybe" and then just dismiss them? While the majority of communities go that way, there is nothing but that "majority bias" supporting that list cutout.
Also, Miiverse is more of a maybe as well (due to the 3DS thing).
Alsoalso, FLSS.

They're a "maybe" because of their viability, in my personal opinion none of those should be legal.

Should we start from the bottom up then in terms of discussing or should we make a new thread?

 

[paperchao]

So TGC 7 is getting streamed this weekend, meaning that we'll get footage of some of the more uncommon stages that are hosted there like peaches castle and umbra. link for anyone interested in more info about it: http://smashboards.com/threads/apr-...samsora-and-more-500-bonus-houston-tx.432238/

 

[HermitHelmet]

So TGC 7 is getting streamed this weekend, meaning that we'll get footage of some of the more uncommon stages that are hosted there like peaches castle and umbra. link for anyone interested in more info about it: http://smashboards.com/threads/apr-...samsora-and-more-500-bonus-houston-tx.432238/

Why would anyone have Peaches?

 

[paperchao]

Why would anyone have Peaches?

it gives horizontal killers an advantage, it makes offstage a more dynamic scenario, as well as the platform layout itself being unique to the other stages on the roster

 

[Respect38]

I don't support this thread getting locked, because I definitely don't think that this conversation has ended, and, honestly, I don't think that it ever really should end, especially when there are currently legal stages that some people are arguing/have argued for the banning of, as well as stages that are banned that deserve to be discussed because how bad they are is being over-exaggerated, and such discussion should be permitted to be kept to this thread rather than split among several legality threats/bumping old legality threads.

 

[Splebel]

Because PC64 is a good stage that people dismiss because there is a bumper that interrupts vertical air combos sometimes and a wall that people can tech on. The platform is also another reason but I don't see how that one is different from smashville.

 

[iVoltage]

I would count the bumper on pc64 as a hazard because its very disruptive.

 

[Ulevo]

So, what do we have right now?

Spoiler: List

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Dreamland 64
Miiverse
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
(maybe)
Castle Siege
Halberd
Umbra
(super maybe)
Wuhu
Skyloft

For a full, proper stagelist, drop everything in both "maybe" categories.

Also Ulevo we still need to discuss Pick/Bans, Neutrals and Counterpicks yet lol

There is no point?

Full list striking is superior to starters plus counterpicks. 7 stages with 1 ban is reasonable. 2 is too much, 0 is not enough. This format has demonstrated it works, and the only questionable element, Umbra Clock Tower, can not be added in without either going back to an inferior format or replacing a stage like say Duck Hunt, which I have not seen one viable, logical argument for.

This thread's purpose has literally met the end of its rope.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ulevo : You're the thread's creator, and as such, you are in full right to have it locked, whether because there is nothing to discuss or because we need to move into another thread.

So if that is your actual sentiment, this is the chance to confirm: Do you really want me to close this thread? Y/N

 

[Shaya]

Hey ぱみゅ could you lock this thread. Assuming Ulevo thinks it has served its purpose~

 

[ぱみゅ]

And so be it

 

[Ulevo]

And so be it

Please and thank you.