Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[ParanoidDrone]

People wanting Lylat banned for buffing edgeguarding is a new one, although it makes sense why people would be against better edgeguarding as Smashville basically kills any attempt with that platform. Umbra also has lots of potential, I think people will warm up to it soon (I hope).

People that have actually played on Umbra Clock Tower seem almost unanimously in favor of it, or at least not against it. So I do have a niggling sort of hope. I know Mr. Wizard knows next to nothing about Smash and tends to bow to general opinion, so the biggest worry is the ripple effect where EVO banning the stage results in no one caring about it ever again.

 

[paperchao]

People that have actually played on Umbra Clock Tower seem almost unanimously in favor of it, or at least not against it. So I do have a niggling sort of hope. I know Mr. Wizard knows next to nothing about Smash and tends to bow to general opinion, so the biggest worry is the ripple effect where EVO banning the stage results in no one caring about it ever again.

Speaking of umbra, it along with wuhu and pokemon stadium 2 will be present in customs 1v1 at glitch, as well as halberd, siege and delfino. I find it interesting how stadium got chosen out of choices like peaches castle 64, kongo, and skyloft, due to them being more "tame" I guess

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of umbra, it along with wuhu and pokemon stadium 2 will be present in customs 1v1 at glitch, as well as halberd, siege and delfino. I find it interesting how stadium got chosen out of choices like peaches castle 64, kongo, and skyloft, due to them being more "tame" I guess

I actually prefer Wuhu over Skyloft, but I think that's just because I find Wuhu prettier to look at.

 

[Yikarur]

Lylat is Starter (on 5 Starter lists) in a lot of regions. Beast 6 had Lylat as a starter too.

Umbra Clock Tower for CP pleaseee

 

[ぱみゅ]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lylat doesn't make it by the end of the year.
At the very least I expect it to lose its Starter category if the community keeps this trend.

 

[paperchao]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lylat doesn't make it by the end of the year.
At the very least I expect it to lose its Starter category if the community keeps this trend.

A shame that it's heading this way too, it's one of the only stages that doesn't handhold you back to the ledge, making an edgeguard much easier against characters like mario. Also the blastzones favor horizontal killers (I think, the blastzones arent the biggest). But we're probably gunna have 5 or 3 stages at the end cuz the community seems obsessed with making smash play like a traditional fighting game when it really isnt. And that includes limiting stage adaptability as player vs. Player is getting increasingly more valuable compared to everything else, while anything that outside that element gets a nice big jank label and is thrown in the garbage.

 

[Yikarur]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lylat doesn't make it by the end of the year.
At the very least I expect it to lose its Starter category if the community keeps this trend.

na it's heavily prefered in germany and a lot of games start on Lylat.
While I haven't seen a single match ever starting on dreamland when we used it as starter. (and I've seen Top32 statistics of majors where dreamland was at 0% starter usage).

Either Battlefield and Dreamland are striked together or if they are not striked people seem to always prefer Battlefield = zero usage.
Dreamland is a redundant starter stage and should be dropped.

 

[Xandercosm]

What are everyones' stances on allowing Omega stages with flat walls for wall-jumping. I feel like it could grow the meta in a lot of interesting ways. Think about all the recoveries that could be improved with the inclusion of better wall-jumping stages. I feel like it would be cool to decide on one flat-walled Omega stage (namely Onett) to use as another option for tournaments. It would allow characters like Mac to not be completely ruined just because his Side-Special and Up-Special don't go far enough.

It would allow for more creative offstage play, as well. I think would be healthy for competitive play as a whole. What do you guys think?

 

[Yikarur]

I think most tournaments have omegas legal. In fact, all tournaments I have ever participated in had them legal. It's just a US-major thing to have them banned.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's just a US-major thing to have them banned.

And as such, smaller communities ban them as well, though these have no reason to.

 

[paperchao]

And as such, smaller communities ban them as well, though these have no reason to.

There's also that pseudo rule where a player can refuse the opponent counterpicking to an omega that I've seen in some places. Not sure if it's still a thing tho

 

[Pazx]

Lylat and Dreamland can both be starters if you open your eyes to the truth.

na it's heavily prefered in germany and a lot of games start on Lylat.
While I haven't seen a single match ever starting on dreamland when we used it as starter. (and I've seen Top32 statistics of majors where dreamland was at 0% starter usage).

Either Battlefield and Dreamland are striked together or if they are not striked people seem to always prefer Battlefield = zero usage.
Dreamland is a redundant starter stage and should be dropped.

Yoooo can you please try and find this data that shows stage selection at majors? Would really appreciate it.

 

[Ulevo]

Courtesy of my friend Titiana. All credit goes to them. This is our local stage list.

Anyway, I foresee this being the finalized stage list of the game. It is not that UCT couldn't be legal, but that it likely will not be because people do not like it and more importantly it upsets the 7 stage strike format which is significantly better with this list than the 5 starter + counterpick format.

 

[Yikarur]

7 Stage format is masterrace.
I would drop Duck Hunt for UTC.
UTC provides a stage that is basically the opposite of Town & City = balances the stage list.
Duck Hunt has a lot of degenerate match-ups. Really. A LOT. I'm not sure if we should keep it legal and if we want a 7 stage list I'd always go with UTC over Duck Hunt.

 

[Xandercosm]

Courtesy of my friend Titiana. All credit goes to them. This is our local stage list.

Anyway, I foresee this being the finalized stage list of the game. It is not that UCT couldn't be legal, but that it likely will not be because people do not like it and more importantly it upsets the 7 stage strike format which is significantly better with this list than the 5 starter + counterpick format.

We need an eighth stage to fill in that gap on either side...

 

[Ulevo]

7 Stage format is masterrace.
I would drop Duck Hunt for UTC.
UTC provides a stage that is basically the opposite of Town & City = balances the stage list.
Duck Hunt has a lot of degenerate match-ups. Really. A LOT. I'm not sure if we should keep it legal and if we want a 7 stage list I'd always go with UTC over Duck Hunt.

The degenerative gameplay on Duck Hunt you are describing is not so bad to the point where it merits stage exclusion except in certain cases like with Little Mac, and that is what bans are for. From a counterpick perspective, Duck Hunt provides far more value to the stage list than UCT does because it has the most stage length by a significant margin. UCT would have more significance in the meta if it had a higher ceiling and narrow blast zones, but it does not. The stage was also poorly implemented with the bad camera positioning during transitions and the shaking, which while I do find tolerable most of the time does occasionally become distracting. I do agree that normally these should not be factors in deciding stage legality since anyone can arbitrarily declare a stage distracting, but this represents the extreme case where there are times the player is having to visually fight against the stage, and we as a competitive community have never felt the need to reward those qualities when it ditracts from fighting an opponent.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, I've got to ask this question...

Why do we have Duck Hunt legal and not Kongo Jungle 64?
No seriously, how do you all prefer an extremely large stage that can allow many characters to camp over a smaller, thinner stage where it's easier to actually beat circle camping? Do you guys not see the double standard there?

 

[Nul]

Why do we have Duck Hunt legal and not Kongo Jungle 64?
No seriously, how do you all prefer an extremely large stage that can allow many characters to camp over a smaller, thinner stage where it's easier to actually beat circle camping? Do you guys not see the double standard there?

The double standard I'm seeing is on-paper type of arguments. Kongo has 2 very high (read: some characters require more than DJ to access) platforms, where the superior mobile character can make leaps between the two. DH technically has one. Granted that "degenerate" game-play typically featuring Mac + a good number of others is feasible on DH, the other character doesn't have a true out if they miss diffusing pressure / baits. Kongo... Kongo you do everything here that you can on DH (for degen-play), plus another platform to hop to as an out, feint that hop halfway, and do this on both sides of the stage.

DH a skilled lesser mobile character feeling degen-play can break it much easier than Kongo. They either need to bait, or find proper windows to climb. Degen-player has poor options if they get caught, and likely will have to challenge the pressure in order to make the most out of a bad situation. Or airdodge for a 50/50.

Kongo lets the Degen-player only have to know that this is general flowchart to stay safe, and require their opponent to exude more than twice (I'd believe given the options) the skill needed of DH similar situations.

Personally, I'm ambivalent on DH, like it, dislike it, I've taken Macs here and lost some (as Yoshi). I've tried both situations as the Mac against non-competitive friends, and the difference is borderline staggering.

If we were going 7 stage only, I would actually drop DH for UTC. I feel the stage itself is a meta-shaker that should prove interesting.

 

[Radical Larry]

Albeit temporary, Umbra Clock Tower has the following:

-Platforms that will take the opponent away in a KO (happens on Town and City).
-Walk-Offs that will encourage camping or give the lead to a character with a powerful grab.
-Platforms that would allow for Circle Camping.
-Caves of Life.

So uh, why is this stage considered viable when it has things that would make it non-viable? I mean, if this is the case, why not bring in Castle Siege? Because SURELY we'd like to have a stage worse than that, so we might as well bring that other stage that was banned for an inane reason back.

 

[Yikarur]

- The Plattforms that go up don't kill and the plattforms that go to the side (the two solid one) move extremely slow.
- It's a plattform walk-off and not connected to the main stage which makes it pretty weak. If you insist on camping there, you find yourself in a disadvantaged position

The last 2 points aren't even worth responding to.

 

[Respect38]

I think that they're worth responding to, just because of how powerfully they've spread as falsehood as to why the stage is problematic.

I think that, simply stated, the problem with Circle Camping and Caves of Life are the following: with the former, we end up with many nearly 100:0 matchups due to characters being able to get a percent lead and then very effectively run away from combat for the remainder of the match. Not only do they make for jank matchups, they're also a waste of time and not fun to watch. With the latter, the problem is that the strategy for the stage becomes polarized toward holding the cave of life and just refusing to die, due to the teching mechanics of the game.

Because Umbra's "circle camping" doesn't result in nearly 100:0 matchups, and because its "cave of life" isn't polarizing to stage strategy, these two reasons are joke reasons for the stage's banning that is only parroted by people who don't understand the actual problems with these things that make them ban-worthy. [if the stage is ban-worthy at all]

As for Omegas, if it's really music that's the problem, then we need just need to come up with a ****ing list of Omegas that are viable without copyright problems. If we can decide whether or not Umbra ought to be legal, then I think we can decide on whether Wii Fit ****ing Studio Ω should be legal as well.

 

[Splebel]

Albeit temporary, Umbra Clock Tower has the following:

-Platforms that will take the opponent away in a KO (happens on Town and City).
-Walk-Offs that will encourage camping or give the lead to a character with a powerful grab.
-Platforms that would allow for Circle Camping.
-Caves of Life.

So uh, why is this stage considered viable when it has things that would make it non-viable? I mean, if this is the case, why not bring in Castle Siege? Because SURELY we'd like to have a stage worse than that, so we might as well bring that other stage that was banned for an inane reason back.

3DS has Prism Tower with Walk-offs and Arena Ferox with caves of life but they are perfectly fine. Also all the other points are either wrong, platforms don't kill going up in this stage for some reason, and only last about 20 seconds.

Also I feel Peach's Castle 64 can be legal as well but people don't like how a wall can potentially tech a kill yet stage spike teching is fine and how the platform at the bottom goes close to the side blastzones yet smashville is fine. Also how a bumper does 1% damage and won't even kill at 300% is too unfair.

 

[Respect38]

I think part of the problem is that you never know exactly where the bumper is when the camera is zoomed in too far to see it.

I mean, that could all be fixed by using Fixed Camera, but I guess that Special Melee is completely off the table even for the purpose of optimizing the camera for a stage. [shoutouts to Pirate Ship Fixed Camera as well, that stage has its problems fixed just by doing that and also banning rudder camping]

 

[Splebel]

Why would anyone be jumping in the bumper's path when the camera isn't on it. That means no one is near the bumper and the bumper is above the entire stage so unless you like jumping around near the top of the screen, you shouldn't hit it.

 

[Respect38]

I'm pretty sure that it isn't about jumping into it, but strings being interrupted is their problem with it.

I don't have a problem with that, but some people do, and unless Fixed Camera were to become up for discussion, then I think that Peach's Castle is fighting a steep uphill battle to legalization.

 

[Splebel]

They can always ban it if it's that much of a problem for their character. Smashville and Duckhunt can screw up projectile users but those stages are fine.

 

[Respect38]

Yeah, because those stages don't have highly intrusive pseudo-random [at least, unpredictable at times] elements such as the bumper.

Sometimes stages are jank in the random way, not in the matchup imbalance way.

Take WarioWare, Inc. as a stage: certainly true that the mechanics of the stage benefit some characters more than others, but more important than that is the fact that the stage has highly random elements which take away from what use it could be to a stagelist, because its matches become [when you compared the ratio of skill/luck determining winners on other stages] much more highly dependent on luck to determine the winner.

I still don't think that PC64 is WWI-tier bad, but "just ban it" isn't an argument; else the point that stagelist conservatives are making has been missed. [and you won't be able to effectively argue in favor of stagelist liberalism if you don't understand the opposite side's perspective]

 

[Splebel]

Well the bumper moves back and forth a set speed and distance while other elements, like the duck in duck hunt move around sporadically. The stagelist conservatives also tend to ban not allow stages that even think about being different. Like UCT being "Too distracting."

The biggest problem with promoting stages is the opposition wants proof of how the stage should be legal and will not provide proof of why it isn't legal. In order for these stages to be legal, people like Zero and Esam would need to be in favor of them or there needs to be a lot of video matches held on these stages. Unfortunately I do not own a Wii U so I cannot upload any replays to Youtube but there needs to be a push of videos with high level gameplay on these stages with a variety of characters in order to "put the ball in their court" and force them to provide video evidence of why the stage shouldn't be legal.

 

[Respect38]

We ought to call those kinds of people stagelist fascists, if you ask me. There's no good reason to stereotype stagelist conservatives like that; while they might sometimes be a useful tool to stagelist fascists, at least you are able to reason with a legitimate stagelist conservative... you can't reason with a stagelist fascist, just like you can't reason with a stagelist socialist.

Political metaphors aside, can you prove that the DH ducks are even vaguely as intrusive as the string-ending bumper? More than likely you'd end up just getting DH banned by stagelist conservatives rather than getting PC64 legalized... but that's not the point here.

 

[Splebel]

We ought to call those kinds of people stagelist fascists, if you ask me. There's no good reason to stereotype stagelist conservatives like that; while they might sometimes be a useful tool to stagelist fascists, at least you are able to reason with a legitimate stagelist conservative... you can't reason with a stagelist fascist, just like you can't reason with a stagelist socialist.

Political metaphors aside, can you prove that the DH ducks are even vaguely as intrusive as the string-ending bumper? More than likely you'd end up just getting DH banned by stagelist conservatives rather than getting PC64 legalized... but that's not the point here.

Well the ducks really only affect projectiles, not strings, and not every character has a projectile. For me to prove that would still require videos I can't record so someone else would need to.

 

[PoptartLord]

Peach's Castle talk! I have a story to tell and I want to hear from you all as to whether it's Skill or Jank.

<Dramatic Storytelling Voice> In tournament I will take people to not-legal-yet-perfectly-fine stages as often as they let me, and one such match took place on Peach's Castle. I was playing the low mobility Robin against the more mobile Mewtwo. There was one interaction where I got grabbed on the lower central platform and thrown upwards. The camera was focused so tightly on us that the top platform was barely visible... that is, until I was launched right past it. Mewtwo rushed in for the follow-up and *whoosh* hits nothing but air. For you see, even though the bumper was off-screen at the time, I knew exactly where it was and DI'd right into it. I took 1% and landed safely. Skill, or Jank? <end DSV>

So what was the point of all that? I keep reading that the bumper is a random, intrusive thing that makes the stage competitively nonviable. Not only does it move in a fixed pattern but it's possible for a player to track and utilize it in the middle of a tournament match. You now have a real-world case of bumper usage. Discuss.

-PoptartLord

 

[Splebel]

Peach's Castle talk! I have a story to tell and I want to hear from you all as to whether it's Skill or Jank.

<Dramatic Storytelling Voice> In tournament I will take people to not-legal-yet-perfectly-fine stages as often as they let me, and one such match took place on Peach's Castle. I was playing the low mobility Robin against the more mobile Mewtwo. There was one interaction where I got grabbed on the lower central platform and thrown upwards. The camera was focused so tightly on us that the top platform was barely visible... that is, until I was launched right past it. Mewtwo rushed in for the follow-up and *whoosh* hits nothing but air. For you see, even though the bumper was off-screen at the time, I knew exactly where it was and DI'd right into it. I took 1% and landed safely. Skill, or Jank? <end DSV>

So what was the point of all that? I keep reading that the bumper is a random, intrusive thing that makes the stage competitively nonviable. Not only does it move in a fixed pattern but it's possible for a player to track and utilize it in the middle of a tournament match. You now have a real-world case of bumper usage. Discuss.

-PoptartLord

To add to that, I did survive a Corrin down throw because I hit the bumper so you can argue against that, but you can also argue that Corrin could've tracked it or have done something different.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I love Peach's Castle, I think it is a very good stage, SPECIALLY for doubles.
But I can see how people not like the fact the opponent has like a bazillion ways to recover so our sacred edgeguarding is moot (even though a lot of people don't edgeguard at all).
It is not very difficult to keep track of the Bumper, the bottom moving lip, or the side "walls".
I would support it if we weren't struggling to have more than 7 stages alive.

Speaking of which, I had to update my stagelist. Not because I think it was wrong, but I had to accommodate to the standard a little, and make it easier to understand.
1- Battlefield / Miiverse / Dreamland
2- Final Destination / Ωs
3- Lylat Cruise
4- Town and City
5- Smasville
6- Duckhunt
7- Umbra Clock Tower

Still having FLSS (2-3-1) and removing Halberd and Castle Siege from the last version.

Also, a lot of local players seem to be okay with merging Dreamland with BF; when we discussed it, somebody asked why and other guy answered "it's okay, if they were not why would I ban use both my bans on them?"

 

[paperchao]

I love Peach's Castle, I think it is a very good stage, SPECIALLY for doubles.
But I can see how people not like the fact the opponent has like a bazillion ways to recover so our sacred edgeguarding is moot (even though a lot of people don't edgeguard at all).
It is not very difficult to keep track of the Bumper, the bottom moving lip, or the side "walls".
I would support it if we weren't struggling to have more than 7 stages alive.

Speaking of which, I had to update my stagelist. Not because I think it was wrong, but I had to accommodate to the standard a little, and make it easier to understand.
1- Battlefield / Miiverse / Dreamland
2- Final Destination / Ωs
3- Lylat Cruise
4- Town and City
5- Smasville
6- Duckhunt
7- Umbra Clock Tower

Still having FLSS (2-3-1) and removing Halberd and Castle Siege from the last version.

Also, a lot of local players seem to be okay with merging Dreamland with BF; when we discussed it, somebody asked why and other guy answered "it's okay, if they were not why would I ban use both my bans on them?"

So for merging all 3 battlefields, does the counterpicker have free reign on which they wanna use? Or do both have to agree still after game 1? Curious on how you run it

 

[Lomogoto]

How do people feel about putting some limits on omegas? I personally hate a few of the omegas because they make recoveries that would be simple on any other omega all but impossible for a few characters that i play. Lucario and to a lessor extent pikachu in particular. Stages like galaxy in omega have weird grass mechanics which dont really ever effect matches but make me ask "why?" and recovering from under it sends you away from the edge in my experience. Luigis mansion has a stupid lip off screen under it that steels kills, and some other odd stages just seem to give unneeded trouble. So im wondering if people like being able to pick the most disruptive ledges as a test of skill? I would rather the only omegas legal be omegas of other legal stages, and if someone wants different music, have that be gentlemaned to. This would still let you pick walls from duck hunt or easy sharking from lylat or basically FD without distractions from BF, but if someone wants to go to a stage they think is equivilant, the players both should agree its not taking away from the game (some of the stages really seem random as to if i die or not, looking at you port town aero drive, though im sure they arent)
Also i thought it might be good to have a persons ban apply to the omega version but dont have a strong oppinion about this yet.

 

[Respect38]

If a stage has a ledge more disruptive than actual FD, then ban it. Sounds fair to me.

I feel like that if this isn't done by Evo, it might be too late for the Ωs..

 

[Lomogoto]

Yeah i just hate banning FD just incase they know lucario can only recover consistantly from a few easy to cover places on port town aero drive, when other wise i have a great recovery!

 

[Splebel]

The problem with combining Dreamland and battlefield is that there are a few key differences for certain characters, but I do agree. Usually if I have two bans they both go to dreamland and battlefield.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding Battlefield vs. Dream Land, I regularly take advantage of their similarity when striking/banning. Starter list is FD/BF/SV/T&C/DL? I'll strike SV first (because oh my god I am sick to death of that stage), then FD (because Rosalina). Only one person has ever struck both BF and DL against me, every other time they strike one but not the other.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So for merging all 3 battlefields, does the counterpicker have free reign on which they wanna use? Or do both have to agree still after game 1? Curious on how you run it

Picker's selection.


And while I don't have one at the moment, I'm very tempted to use an agreement policy on Omegas, since they are generally way more dividing (one of the problems of having so many).