Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Omegaphoenix]

The EVO 2016 stagelist just came out. It will be FLSS with the following stages:
Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd

Thoughts?

Swap Halberd with UCT, and I love it. There may be licensing issues with that though

 

[Routa]

Well it seems like the ruleset is not final version. Well let's see how many stages we have left on the final stage list.

 

[wizrad]

FLSS makes me happy.
Halberd makes me sad.

Halberd —> Umbra Clock Tower
Maybe: Delfino Plaza —> Dreamland 64

 

[19_]

Swap Halberd with UCT, and I love it. There may be licensing issues with that though

Lol nope

I was kinda surprised by this really.

btw Seagull's stage list is my favorite

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Lol nope

I was kinda surprised by this really.

btw Seagull's stage list is my favorite

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Putting Lylat in starter and DreamLand in Counterpick? Bringing back Castle Siege? No Miiverse as a seperate stage? If it wasn't for the fact he's a filthy Sonic main I could hug this man.

 

[Jams.]

Putting Lylat in starter and DreamLand in Counterpick? Bringing back Castle Siege? No Miiverse as a seperate stage? If it wasn't for the fact he's a filthy Sonic main I could hug this man.

Reading this response from a Long Island TO regarding Umbra Clock Tower makes me feel for you. I really like Seagull's stagelist, but IDK if it will pick up steam on a national or even regional scale. Many people seem to have written off Castle Siege already, and the chances of a comeback of any banned stage seems unlikely.

 

[paperchao]

Maybe: Delfino Plaza —> Dreamland 64

I'd personally have both tbh, but I think delfino would be better to keep if I had to choose

 

[NextPain]

The EVO 2016 stagelist just came out. It will be FLSS with the following stages:
Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd

Thoughts?

Replace Helberd with UVT and its good and Castle Siege is lame af

 

[Yikarur]

Umbra Clock Tower pls. And pls no halberd. This stage is pure abuse.

 

[Xeze]

Lol nope

I was kinda surprised by this really.

btw Seagull's stage list is my favorite

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I like his stagelist. I don't like Castle Siege, mostly because of the second transformation, but I would give it another shot.

 

[Radical Larry]

Honestly, I don't think UCT should be considered a normal Counterpick, not even the Omega version of it!

While you may refute this claim, I do have some legitimacy:

-Platforms can create caves of life just under the stage.
-Platforms can leave above or on the side of the stage, a potential KO setup or combo setup on some opponents.

And despite those being minor, a major reason as to why I believe it needs to be given a "special counterpick" category is the annoyingly distracting background. I literally cannot, for the life of me, even focus on fighting my opponent when I don't even know where they are and when the background is going way too fast for me to focus on the fight. Not one fight have I been able to focus on the stage, and I'm sure others might have done that at one point; not everyone would think of this as a problem, but this is a problem like Mario Maker's background, which is also extremely distracting in Omega gameplay.

 

[Yikarur]

It's really your fault for getting distracted. A lot of stages have a lot of stuff going on in the background (especially FD and Lylat).

 

[Respect38]

While realizing that it won't affect the national legality of either stage, is it a completely unreasonable suggestion to say that that Peach's Castle N64 and Pirate Ship be played in Fixed Camera, for bumper and bomb visibility respectively? Would this make the stages more competitively viable? [albeit in such a way that the camera is now a part of the equation for those stages' legality in such a way that they might be viewed as equally nonviable to some, but perhaps fully viable to others]

[Also, does Angled Camera assist in bumper visibility for Peach's Castle? That would be a significantly smaller jump in change of camera, but I don't have the DLC necessary to test it for myself, and I would be hard pressed to find footage of Angled Camera Peach's Castle...]

 

[wizrad]

I would prefer PC64 be fixed just for the bumper combos :3 but I don't think that stage should be legal.

 

[Tinkerer]

Honestly, I don't think UCT should be considered a normal Counterpick, not even the Omega version of it!

While you may refute this claim, I do have some legitimacy:

-Platforms can create caves of life just under the stage.
-Platforms can leave above or on the side of the stage, a potential KO setup or combo setup on some opponents.

And despite those being minor, a major reason as to why I believe it needs to be given a "special counterpick" category is the annoyingly distracting background. I literally cannot, for the life of me, even focus on fighting my opponent when I don't even know where they are and when the background is going way too fast for me to focus on the fight. Not one fight have I been able to focus on the stage, and I'm sure others might have done that at one point; not everyone would think of this as a problem, but this is a problem like Mario Maker's background, which is also extremely distracting in Omega gameplay.

How did you go from http://smashboards.com/threads/the-expanded-minimum-stage-proposal-and-countermeasure-u-s-a.428423/ to this post? Woah.

 

[Radical Larry]

How did you go from http://smashboards.com/threads/the-expanded-minimum-stage-proposal-and-countermeasure-u-s-a.428423/ to this post? Woah.

I would have been an advocate to UCT's legalization, but after playing the stage, I just couldn't seem to play correctly and focus due to the fast movement of the cliffs and the stage itself, which was very distracting.

It's really your fault for getting distracted. A lot of stages have a lot of stuff going on in the background (especially FD and Lylat).

Except the backgrounds are just simple moving backgrounds. You literally have a background on UCT that comes not only extremely close, it also goes so fast in speed and lasts too long. I can tolerate Port Town Aero Dive, which is significantly slower in speed when the background moves, and the background has DEPTH in mind! UCT is like, "You like having a background that's far away? You like having a background that has depth? Here's a giant rock that comes close to the stage."

 

[19_]

edit ignore this post

 

[Lord Horatio]

I honestly don't know why Halberd is still legal; it has three stage hazards. In addition, the low ceiling is troublesome when fighting Sheik because she can kill at lower percentages with u-air, same goes for ZSS and her up-special. As for Dreamland 64 vs Lylat Cruise, I have little preference outside the superior Kirby tracks.

 

[Cheap Shot]

Hey everyone, I made a post in the Smash 3DS Legal Stages thread and I was really hoping for your guys' advice.

Aside from that, I'm going to start TOing Smash Wii U events very soon and I was looking to run a 13 Stage FLSS list. I have the stages that I would want to use but I'm not all too sure which all I should pick, so I'm going to list them out below.

Definitely:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Dreamland 64

Likely:
Umbra Clock Tower
Skyloft
Deflino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Mario Circuit
Peace's Castle 64

Possible, not so likely:
Mushroom Kingdom U
Kalos Pokemon League
Windy Hill Zone
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Seige
Hyrule Castle 64

The last list contains alternatives in case people don't seem to enjoy some of the other stages. I was thinking of doing 2-3 stage bans with DSR unless gentlemen'd. Let me know what you guys think! I'm looking for constructive criticism, so please don't bash on having 13 legal stages and FLSS. I'm not going to change my mind on it unless it turns into an utter failure in practice.

 

[Charey]

For a 13 stage list I would swap Mario Circuit with either Halbred or Castle Siege, depending on what your local scene prefers. Mario Circuit more with play then it looks like it would just from looking at the stops.

I would set up the Omega random stage list as a reference and strike from the normal random stage list. People will forget what stages are legal from a large list at least for a few weeks.

Just be aware that only the first seven stages you listed are going to be used at big events.

 

[Cheap Shot]

For a 13 stage list I would swap Mario Circuit with either Halbred or Castle Siege, depending on what your local scene prefers. Mario Circuit more with play then it looks like it would just from looking at the stops.

I would set up the Omega random stage list as a reference and strike from the normal random stage list. People will forget what stages are legal from a large list at least for a few weeks.

Just be aware that only the first seven stages you listed are going to be used at big events.

Thanks for your feedback! I was never a fan of Halberd because of the low ceilings and hazards and not a fan of CS because of the second transformation, but I'll see what people like. And yeah, of course! I'll also have it on paper and on a form you can see from your phone so people can always view the legal stages and easily strike them.

 

[Halifax?]

The EVO stagelist has been narrowed down to

5 starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise
2 counterpicks: Duck Hunt, Dreamland 64

I find this the best compromise between stage conservatives and liberals for now. Players who dislike Lylat Cruise can stop johning and learn how to recover (Funny how players who complain about braindead characters need their braindead recovery). Dreamland is definitely counterpick material. It's a shame Umbra Clock Tower didn't make the cut.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The EVO stagelist has been narrowed down to

5 starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise
2 counterpicks: Duck Hunt, Dreamland 64

I find this the best compromise between stage conservatives and liberals for now. Players who dislike Lylat Cruise can stop johning and learn how to recover (Funny how players who complain about braindead characters need their braindead recovery). Dreamland is definitely counterpick material. It's a shame Umbra Clock Tower didn't make the cut.

D1 is probably really salty he didn't get to ban enough things Kappa

But seriously, they cut all the moving stages? Rip Delfino Skyloft and UCT, you will be sorely missed forever.

Lylat being starter and DL being CP is nice though, I like that. But really, we should've had at least one or two more CPs. It could be easy, throw in UCT and/or Delfino or Skyloft, bam, great stage list. This one feels like they gave in too hard to the ban side

 

[Ulevo]

I think its really dumb they decided to go with those 7 stages yet keep the starter + counterpick format. There is no meaning in doing so.

 

[Halifax?]

I have to practice plotting data using Matlab for school so I figured I might as well put it to good use. I made some graphs that compare vertical and horizontal blastzones for different stagelists.

Spoiler: Vertical vs. Horizontal blastzones

Spoiler: Vertical vs. Horizontal (from ledge) blastzones

I couldn't figure out how to make the legend smaller >_< oh well. The point is basically that most stages we add to the stagelist will indirectly buff horizontal killers because our current stagelist has such a low average ceiling. So using Lylat Cruise over Dreamland 64 as a starter means vertical killers are way less dangerous. Umbra Clock Tower also had the same affect on the whole stagelist when added as a counterpick. For ****s and giggles I threw in Pokemon Stadium 2 and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) on one graph and sure enough it had the same effect of helping horizontal killers.

I'm assuming vertical killing is stronger in the upper half of the tier list than in the lower? So adding more stages kinda buffs the lowers tiers a bit. Also adding more stages probably buffs edgeguarding/offstage play, fthrows, fsmashes (Sakurai would be so proud). IDK about y'all but I've gotten kinda tired with how vertically top tier MUs play out...

 

[hugQ Cortex]

Awesome plots Halifax. +1 for Matlab.

 

[potter5656]

Technically true but I'd wager that's a far (far) lesser impact on the match than the flatness. It's barely on my radar unless I'm fighting Villager.

I think thst we should get rid of fd in favor of an omega stage with paralel walls Its unfair that if you want to walljump duck hunt is the only good choice.(iknow you can wall jump on fd at some parts) plus FD has that bright moment where projectiles dissapere

There's your answer. But less snarkily, I think it's for the tree and how the dog can pop up under you. IMO neither are worth banning the stage (the tree is character matchup dependent, i.e. Little Mac vs. anyone, and the dog is predictable).

bringing up specific matchups mean nothing. just ban it since it is a counter pick. you dont see melee players banning fd because marth vs fox on that stage is is almost guaruenteed for marth

What about custom stages because i think halberd delfino skyloft wuhu casteil seige are not coming back duck hunt is here to stay as a counterpick. But what about custom stages created by the community.

It's really your fault for getting distracted. A lot of stages have a lot of stuff going on in the background (especially FD and Lylat).

if you pick omega fd the backround wont change

 

[Ajimi]

It's already been asked before, but what are stages used in 2vs2 ? I think Kongo 64 for example can be added to the 1vs1 list, but is there any other ? Or maybe using the exact same stagelist is better ?

 

[Megamang]

I generally see much more variance in 2v2 stagelist. Usually its the stagelist being utilized for 1v1 + maybe one or two stages that want to be tried in the local community. People like to add Kongo 64 but personally I think its a lame stage. The blastzones are big, the cannon now makes the person inside it a hitbox (which can kill people who assume it isn't like that, since it wasn't like that in 64 or melee...), and it is circle campable. 2v2 has a lot of 1v1 elements, such as players splitting off into pairs to fight only having some interaction, as well as the ending maybe being 1v1 anyways.

2v2 is a nice way to test the waters on some stages without disrupting the 'main' event. I know some people (myself included) really like doubles and see it as the main event, but overall its better to test it there than 1v1. Exploitable camping is also not quite as powerful, because you can then 2v1 their remaining teammate. And if you have one player running away from 2, the onus is on the team to corner him... or simply wait them out and win that way.

Consider giving your players another ban if you are trying out a stage. That way, if they truly don't want to experiment they don't have to give up their ban, but players that are more open minded will perhaps try the stage. Then, if the games went well, consider keeping the stage.

 

[WritersBlah]

So Umbra's been banned from both EVO and CEO as of this writing. Is there any reason why this is? Most of the discussion on here, even from most stage conservatives, have spoken about the stage pretty favorably, so what's the deal?

 

[Halifax?]

tbh many players hate how UCT promotes defensive characters. Such a shame. When Greninja and Falcon get space for their combos. Falco can pressure the whole screen with platforms. Little Mac could live to see another day. Heavies survive longer and love their rage. Samus, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner, Donkey Kong, Pacman, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin get KO options online easier.

Funny how players hate jank low percent kills yet only play small stages.

Funny how it's Bayonetta's stage but she'd strike it first. If she becomes overbearing in the meta UCT wouldn't sound so bad huh? Unless TOs ban her too LOL

I'm curious how far a truly degenerate player can push his strategy on UCT compared to other stages though. I don't rule out the possibilities.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The main problem is that people are lazy and don't want to allow a brand new stage.
Dreamland is only legal because muh melee

 

[zkaka3000]

Urgh, my local might ban Umbra, lots of people are saying since no "big" tourneys have it legal why bother. I personally don't see any major issues, so I'm wondering why a lot of people here are writing it off pretty quick. We only had one week with the stage available anyway (like a test run so to speak) so it might be too soon.

I'm really not good with debating, but is there anything i could say to try to convince others, like maybe list the positives to having the stage legal? Large blast zone was already mentioned, diversity, good for certain characters, etc.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lots of people are saying since no "big" tourneys have it legal why bother

I personally despise that mentality. You're not catering for anybody, favoring anyone, or following a trend; you're just being lazy, and I mean the TOs and players who think that.

Umbra being not legal in those tournaments is nothing but TOs considering it suspect and not wanting to take the (nonexistent) risk (similar case as Miis), and due to nobody really researching their reasoning, it is very likely to fall into a realm of forgotten it will never be rescued from.

 

[Xeze]

The general tendency of TOs in big events is to reduce the number of stages in the stagelist, not increasing them.
Sad, sad situation.

But I can see the reasoning behind Umbra. They don't wanna allow a stage in a big event that hasn't been fully approved in smaller tournaments.

 

[Ajimi]

They don't wanna allow a stage in a big event that hasn't been fully approved in smaller tournaments.

Except that smaller tournaments follow majors 3/4 of the year, so we're going nowhere.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's the most circular of chains of thoughts.

 

[[BROF]]

Dreamland is not really that complex. It's natural to see why it's a stage pick. The only gimmick it has is the wind, which is interesting and non-invasive on its own.
I would have wanted UCT to be legal but too bad I guess. Being able to Auto cancel even more moves due to the drop on the clock made it a very interesting pick.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Honestly, I'm just suprised they still have Lylat.. That stage gets quite a lot of hate in my scene. We changed the ladder legal stages to the EVO stuff, and people on the facebook page were all "I've never actually seen anyone pick Lylat." Which was factually wrong since I'd literally picked it in two ladder matches earlier that day.

So I posted saying that, and giving my thoughts as to why its a good starter (Promotes gimps, allows interesting play off the sides, is not a uair to victory stage,) and the top player commented saying that Lylat was bad because it gave good gimpers advantage and easily gimped characters disadvantage, and also claimed the tilt is bad because it changes. And all I thought was, "Hmm, a moving element that depending on position can easily affect a character's recovery. Are we talking about Lylat or Smashville.

Also, super sad about Clock Tower. I mean, I saw the future because it was never legal here, even though I wanted it so bad, but super sad about it

 

[paperchao]

Honestly, I'm just suprised they still have Lylat.. That stage gets quite a lot of hate in my scene. We changed the ladder legal stages to the EVO stuff, and people on the facebook page were all "I've never actually seen anyone pick Lylat." Which was factually wrong since I'd literally picked it in two ladder matches earlier that day.

So I posted saying that, and giving my thoughts as to why its a good starter (Promotes gimps, allows interesting play off the sides, is not a uair to victory stage,) and the top player commented saying that Lylat was bad because it gave good gimpers advantage and easily gimped characters disadvantage, and also claimed the tilt is bad because it changes. And all I thought was, "Hmm, a moving element that depending on position can easily affect a character's recovery. Are we talking about Lylat or Smashville.

Also, super sad about Clock Tower. I mean, I saw the future because it was never legal here, even though I wanted it so bad, but super sad about it

People wanting Lylat banned for buffing edgeguarding is a new one, although it makes sense why people would be against better edgeguarding as Smashville basically kills any attempt with that platform. Umbra also has lots of potential, I think people will warm up to it soon (I hope).