Stage Counterpick Chart (WIP)

[Pikabunz]

| | | | :yoshisb: | s1: | | | - | | | | | :brinstar: | :rainbowcruise:
:metaknightbrawl: |

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:olimarbrawl: |

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:diddybrawl: |

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:icsbrawl: |

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:snakebrawl: |

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:falcobrawl: |

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:marthbrawl: |

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ikachubrawl: |

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:wariobrawl: |

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:zssbrawl: |

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:lucariobrawl: |

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:dededebrawl: |

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:toonlinkbrawl: |

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:wolfbrawl: |

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:gwbrawl: |

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:foxbrawl: |

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eachbrawl: |

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itbrawl: |

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:robbrawl: |

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:kirbybrawl: |

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:sonicbrawl: |

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:dkbrawl: |

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:ikebrawl: |

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:sheikbrawl: |

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:yoshibrawl: |

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:nessbrawl: |

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tbrawl: |

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:luigibrawl: |

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:lucasbrawl: |

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:mariobrawl: |

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:samusbrawl: |

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:bowserbrawl: |

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:falconbrawl: |

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:jigglypuffbrawl: |

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:linkbrawl: |

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:zeldabrawl: |

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:ganonbrawl: |

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| | | | :yoshisb: | s1: | | | | | | | | :brinstar: | :rainbowcruise:

 

[Pikabunz]

Alrighty, let's start with the first 5 characters.

Metaknight
Olimar
Diddy
Ice Climbers
Snake

What are the best picks, counterpicks, strikes, and bans? For starter pick, we need 2 strikes and the 3 best picks from best to worst. For counterpicks, we need 1 ban and 3 counterpicks.

Discuss!

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

Oh, good, stages. A place where I think I probably kind of almost may possibly have the tiniest shred of an iota of a clue as to what I'm talking about. I do have a strong bias for PS1 (I may pick it in an actual set even if there's a better stage available because I feel comfortable there) and against SV (I like to strike this first out of principle to shake people out of their comfort zone) though, so that may color any objectivity.

The preferred order is read left-to-right (Strikes are implicitly right-to-left, banned stage is rightmost, CP order starts with the leftmost and goes right )

• Metaknight
  I find mid-level Metaknights tend to overextend themselves since they're normally very safe, so if you can have a big enough stage, you might be able to give them enough rope to hang themselves with. I don't know what to do about MKs that are actually good, so more room to run to relieve some of the pressure is nice.
  
  I dunno what to do. I generally just give myself a lot of room and play the "I'mma wait until you mess up" game and go with that. More room makes it easier to keep away from constant hitbox streams.
  
  My preferred order is:
  s1::yoshisb:
  
• Olimar
  You're screwed. There's really no way around this. The fewer umbrellas you give him, the more attack vectors you have, and you need every single one of them.
  
  YI is one giagantic umbrella; I have no idea how you are supposed to assail oli's position... ever. FD at least gives you some air to work with. BF over YI due to top platform needing much more commitment from oli to get at you.
  
  My preferred order is:
  s1::yoshisb:
  
  
• Diddy
  If you can negate the effects of the bananas, this matchup becomes a metric ton easier.
  
  YI does this best--any bananas are put above you on the platform and cease to be an immediate concern. I also find them easier to deny Diddy when they're up there.
  
  My preferred order is:
  :yoshisb:s1:
  
  
• Ice Climbers
  This MU sucks. Forever. May they burn in the fiery pit for all time.
  
  I feel like PS1 is our best bet for this MU simply because stage changes give us something like safe opportunities and a fleeting camping advantage. Tiny platforms on the "neutral" transformation make shield-push ledge-slip a major concern though.
  
  
  My preferred order is:
  s1::yoshisb:
  
  
• Snake
  Our best matchup in the top 5. We have it pretty good regardless of stage, so it's largely gonna come down to preference.
  
  My experience has shown YI to be the clear winner here for us. There's very little room for snake to set up the camping game and once we inevitably get the grab because of it, he has so very little places to go. Yeah, he can live longer due to higher ceiling, but that's more than offset by how much easier it is to juggle him to death.
  
  My preferred order is:
  :yoshisb:s1:

---

I'll try to come back to this tomorrow when I have a little more time (and probably to modify after reflecting on some arguments made by others). For now, pithy quote and some digitally scrawled notes to get something started!

 

[Pikabunz]

Nice post.

Do most tournaments still use 5 starters? I know the official ruleset uses 7, but I rarely see 7 used in tournaments. We should probably include Castle Siege and Lylat anyways. Hmm.

 

[Cassio]

I feel like we should include Lylat and Castle Siege. I dont think itd intefere and sometimes people use lylat instead of PS1.

oops. just sorta had this window open. yeah I agree include the extras. Also I feel like doing 5 top tiers is maybe a bit much and would almost prefer to go one at a time for them. After top tier I wouldnt mind doing a few at a time. If no one else agrees with that Ill toss in the other characters later.

MK
1 - Battlefield Very standard, imo and for others as well Pikas best stage. The only thing I dont like is that if MK gets a decent lead he can air plank but I havent seen it happen enough to see if its hard to get around.
2 - YI Very underrated for Pika. Jolts get a boost, platform pressure works well, the stage is still really flat and long which overall works better for pika imo
3 - FD Lots of space to work with
4 - PS1 Not sure about this one, but Im open to hearing ESAM talk more about it
5 - Lylat Ive heard rumors this is bad for MK so Im going to investigate more. The only thing I can think of is that it might screw with MKs ground game/spacing
6 - Smashville Pretty eh stage vs MK
7 - CastleSiege Dont really know much about this stage vs MK, but I feel like the first and second parts mess with our ledge games, and pikas too good on the ledge to not have one unless hes CGing someone.

Ban
1st Brinstar, 2nd Delfino, 3rd Smashville
self-explanatory. Im not sure if CS is really bad for this MU but I certainly not fond of SV.
CP
1st Battlefield, 2nd YI, 3rd FD


@ENNH why dont you like BF and why do you like PS1? My biggest concern with PS1 is that it can be a timeout stage along with delfino and RC. Not that thats necessarily bad...but Id like to hear how pika deal with an MK that would want to time you out on PS1.

 

[Pikabunz]

K, I'll add Lylat and CS to the starters.

Starters
s1: :yoshisb:
-List 3 strikes
-List 4 best picks in order

Counterpicks
:brinstar: :rainbowcruise:
-List 3 bans
-List top 4 picks
-Starters included

 

[Cassio]

Well the only reason I included more bans is because not all rulesets are the same. Many places got rid of Brinstar/RC, and in socal we dont even have Delfino/frigate/halberd. Same with counterpicks.

Id say if people want to put down more go for it, and if they want to list less thats fine, but you can decide how many you want to put in the OP.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

subscribing. ill give my input at some point, im not that good at stages honestly

 

[Pikabunz]

Well the only reason I included more bans is because not all rulesets are the same. Many places got rid of Brinstar/RC, and in socal we dont even have Delfino/frigate/halberd. Same with counterpicks.

Id say if people want to put down more go for it, and if they want to list less thats fine, but you can decide how many you want to put in the OP.

I just might make 1 big chart with all the stages then. Why can't there be just one ruleset? :/

 

[Phoenix Lord']

Because there are some people who just don't seem to realise that some of those stages suck.

 

[Cassio]

Nah I think youre doing good Prime, keep it the way it is. The starter stages especially, those are way more important. Besides Im sure people can figure out that if the stage isnt on their stagelist than to just ignore it.

Only thing Id suggest is to include 2/3 bans instead of just 1

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the problem with one ruleset is obv not everyone agrees with it, and i dont think there will ever be a ruleset where even a majority of people agree on every point. for instance i thought most of the URC's ruleset was garbage LOL

 

[Pikabunz]

What does socal have for counterpicks if you don't even use those stages?

 

[Cassio]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=137415

I think thats more or less the ruleset.

 

[~automatic]

Yoshi's, PS1, Lylat, And Castle Siege. I may be forgetting a stage but I think that's it.

 

[Pikabunz]

I really like that ruleset. I rather just get rid of all the dumb stages than ban Metaknight. I also like how pools are always 2 matches instead of a set.

 

[Cassio]

I agree. Although I wouldnt mind more stages if they at least brought back Norfair . Two match pools actually saves a lot of time since you can set down 16 minutes per set instead of 24. Best of 3 is still better imo but it is a great way to save time and make sure pools are included (which is a really good idea if you want people to improve and new people to return).

Anyways, Im kind of waiting on ESAM and Prime to weigh in, also Ill ask Z tonight if I remember.

Got a chance to play on PS1, CS, lylat, etc. yesterday with a MK that really knows the MU.

Smashville is really really not preferable. If the MK is proficient at the MU he gets a huge buff on edgeguarding pika with almost no risk to himself. This probably wont be true for most MKs youll play, but it will be for those proficient at the MU. That plus some of the other stuff stated earlier just makes this stage the worst neutral.

PS1 grew on me, but again Im concerned about timeout happy MKs and neither of us were really going for timeouts. Some transformations are best to wait out, but rock transformation is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good for pikachu holy cow.

Lylat grew on me. CS sorta grew on me, but we both didnt really know the stage and Ive had bad experiences here before. YI is still really cool, same with BF.

 

[Pikabunz]

Strikes

Starter Picks
s1: :yoshisb:

Bans
:brinstar:
Counterpicks
s1: :rainbowcruise:

I don't really know much about stages so this list might seem meh. We need more post in here.

Edit:
Testing new chart.

Spoiler

P = Starter pick
S = Strike
B = Ban
CP = Counterpick

| | | | :yoshisb: | s1: | | | - | | | | | :brinstar: | :rainbowcruise:
:metaknightbrawl: |

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:falcobrawl: |

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:marthbrawl: |

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ikachubrawl: |

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:wariobrawl: |

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:zssbrawl: |

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:lucariobrawl: |

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:dededebrawl: |

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:toonlinkbrawl: |

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:wolfbrawl: |

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:gwbrawl: |

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eachbrawl: |

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| | | | :yoshisb: | s1: | | | | | | | | :brinstar: | :rainbowcruise:

 

[*Cam*]

You'll have to forgive me, but my stage analysis is sub-par.

My feelings on MK are that anything we can do, he can do better, except camp with tjolts. Therefore, I agree with FD and PS1 being our go-to counter-picks. I feel better on Battlefield than Lylat because the platforms are lower on Lylat and it could be easier for him to tornado camp us.

I suppose Castle Siege is bad because he can wall us off easily, and shuttle loop kills earlier. As Cassio said, the ledge is also less forgiving on the first transformation, but I don't know enough about the stage to give a well-informed opinion.

EDIT: I also completely agree with the ban list. I wouldn't change a thing on that.

 

[Nordal]

I don't know many tournaments nowadays that still have Brinstar, RC, or PS2 legal (except in more liberal tournament scenes), but I'll try to contribute.

Metaknight

Preferred starter order

FD will be striked because it's probably our best stage for the matchup so you'll most likely end up on BF. I prefer BF over SV because the moving platform leads to inconsistencies with recovery that are never in our favor. QAing on the platform sets us up for an early kill from shuttle loop and actually helps him because he can get closer to where we're recovering without using jumps, and the landing penalty on the platform isn't very fun either. Battlefield platforms limit our thunderjolt mixups (sometimes), but they help in recovery a lot.

If the starters include two more stages (usually YI and PS1/Lylat) then it's really up to you. They'll ban FD and probably PS1/BF, so it's up to you to decide if you want to play on BF, SV, or YI (I don't recommend lylat because recovering there is a pain in the ***) depending on the starter list.

I don't know too much about preferable counterpicks (Norcal uses modified Japanese ruleset now), but neutrals in general have always felt like a stronger option other than RC (in which case you really need to know the stage to get the advantage from it).

Olimar
I don't use pikachu for this mother****er.

Diddy
I don't use him much in this MU either, but most counterpicks in general (other than castle siege) seem to be stronger picks than neutrals, but I hate the MU anywhere so pick your poison.

I'm bored now.

 

[Pikabunz]

Also, I think banning a stage like Halberd could depend on the MK's playstyle. If the MK doesn't know how to shark properly then I could see the stage as a good counterpick because of the low ceiling.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hehe....sorry guys, was at CEO. I'll edit this post more when I read over every other thread I'm subscribed to (Oh god top 5 thread)

 

[Cassio]

Sweet. If you get a chance can you cover:

PS1: Why do you like it? Particularly vs MK? Also my biggest concern with PS1 is that it can be a timeout stage along with delfino and RC. Not that thats necessarily bad...but Id like to hear how pika deal with an MK that would want to time you out on PS1.

Lylat: Tyrant dislikes this stage as MK. Does it possibly work well in the MU?

CS: Pretty clueless about this stage and how well pika does on it, especially vs MK.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Strikes

Lylat, Yoshis, Castle Siege/SV

The only two neutrals I dislike in this MU are Lylat and Yoshis. Lylat tilts and it messes up our CG as well as gives MK opportunities to edgeguard us more effectively with D-smash (Just like on Yoshi's slanted edges). There aren't a lot of recovery mix-ups since the platforms are spaced so far apart horizontally so it becomes rather easy to predict over the course of a match.
Yoshi's is slanted pretty much everywhere, so it makes QACing a lot less viable and it kinda screws our recovery mix-up. The thing that gives us an even MU with MK is the fact that he pretty much can't edgeguard us, and the slants allow him to better than any other stage. The thing that MKs don't like is the fact that the tilt can mess up their reverse SL onto the stage, but that isn't too viable against us anyway, so it isn't that much of a detriment.

Castle Siege is honestly a random pick. The stages you want to go to are definitely PS1, BF, or FD. If the MK is really good at SL pressure, I would recommend striking SV instead of Castle Siege, but it is really based on the MK you are playing.

FD is good and bad, though. Thankfully, most people auto-strike it without thinking. MK honestly does really well on that stage due to his more effective ground control. His tilts, Sh fair, and SL make it really hard for Pikachu to approach on the ground, and obvious T-jolts don't really work. If you get a lead, you normally keep it. If you get a grab in the middle of the stage, you deal massive damage due to d-throw uair footstool. The lack of platforms hurt our pressure, but hurt MKs pressure as well. Pretty much, Pikachu still has an advantage on this stage, but only because MK deals less damage per hit and Pikachu can still kinda blow MK up.

PS1. Ahh, I love this stage. The inability for MK to go around to the other side really helps when trying to tack on % when he's offstage. The transformations help us more than him considering MK has a really tough time timing Pikachu out due to his gdlk uair and crazy damage racking potential. I just like this stage a lot and I'm really comfortable there. I don't really have a problem with MK timing me out in general, so I guess I never really think about it.

Castle Siege doesn't really have any problems with it. The first part is rather small and is good for both of our pressures. The 2nd part is normally stalled out, and the 3rd part is like FD but he can't go under the stage. Normally the player more comfortable on the stage will win, it is rather neutral.

I feel like BF and SV are rather self explanatory so I'm not gonna bother.

 

[Cassio]

Nice write ups. What about CPs/Bans (remember some stagelists dont have brinstar or even delfino, so put a few)?

@ESAM + everyone else
I've never felt slanted edges gave MK too much in terms of edge guarding so long as you're being cautious. Not saying I think its wrong to strike them, but I feel like theres a general lack of information on YI and Lylat that may be worth exploring (YI in particular).
(http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14590358&postcount=3924)

I agree with ESAM and Prime about SV/Halberd not being as bad if the MK isnt too good at shuttle loops/sharking but its hard to express that in the chart so I think its better to avoid them and maybe put a note.

Castle Siege, the only thing I really hate is part 2, but maybe Ill start stalling it like you said. No offstage = really easy to die to a character that has a hard time killing.

Im going to ask Z what he thinks too but I probably cant until tomorrow evening.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Slanted ledges = D-smashing out of Skull bash to the ledge. It eliminates an options that normally isn't eliminated, so it is still disadvantageous.

For bans, Brinstar against everybody. If Brinstar isn't legal, the next thing I ban is normally Lylat, just because I feel like it helps other characters more than it helps Pikachu.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Strike: Lylat cruise, Yoshi's, Castle Siege
Best Picks: FD, PS1, BF, SV

Ban: Brinstar (if legal), Delfino, Frigate, Yoshi's, Lylat, Rainbow
CP: Same as Best Picks

 

[Cassio]

Slanted ledges = D-smashing out of Skull bash to the ledge. It eliminates an options that normally isn't eliminated, so it is still disadvantageous.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. My main issue is that when I fight a solid MK who knows what theyre doing skull bashing to the ledge is never a safe option, at least not without mix ups. In fact part of the reason I like YI is because Ive learned to aim below the ledge more often and the solid wall makes that a lot easier.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Skull bashing to the ledge is generally a good option because of they don't grab the ledge perfectly they will most likely be hit off and get stagespiked.

Also, to make it neater and explanations



Bans: Brinstar, Lylat, Frigate

Brinstar is overall Pikachu's worst stage and probably MK's best stage. Constant sharking, slants, acid...yeah it isn't good. If it is in the ruleset, ban it with no remorse.

Lylat, IMO, is the worst stage outside of Frigate for this MU. The platforms screw over T-jolts, it is too wide to go under reliably for recovery mix-ups, and the platforms are at an awkward height and spacing for us. Don't like it at all.

I honestly love Frigate in general, but people will complain about the right side not having a ledge. YOu can skull bash under and go to the left or just deal with the mix-up, and other than that the stage is awesome for Pikachu. Slants help the CG, the platforms are awesome and help for relieving ledge pressure. If you dislike this stage though, ban it over Lylat (assuming brinstar is banned)

Preferred Stages: BF, PS1, PS2, FD in that order IMO.

 

[Pikabunz]

Updated the chart and I'm using O for good pick, X for bad pick, and - for neutral pick. I think this way is much easier than trying to put them in order from best to worst.

@ESAM - Why say ban Frigate if Pika is so good on it? The right side of the stage not having a ledge isn't a big deal for Pika, imo.

Also, let's do Olimar now. What are the bad stages and good stages against Olimar?

Bad - Can we all agree that Battlefield and Lylat are terrible stages against him?

Good - Rainbow Cruise and Frigate?

 

[Cassio]

Sorry I was gonna get back to this after I talked to Z, but hes been hard to get ahold of the last week. If I dont talk to him soon Ill just get back to this anyways.

Also I think ESAM and Z believe BF is Pikas best stage vs MK. Thats what I think too. Lylat might not be bad...but Im fine with what everyone else says. I think RC and Frigate are fine but I wouldnt CP them there or anything.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I don't have much experience in the Pika/Oli MU as I've been going ICs as of late. Yoshi's and Lylat are probably the two worst, followed by FD and SV. I would imagine WANTING to take him to BF. The best stage would probably be PS1 or PS2 because he doesn't get a typing bonus.

Also, for the MK Frigate thing, I just do that because people don't like Frigate. I will personally never ban Frigate against MK seeing as I prefer Frigate to Lylat, but people dislike CP stages in general, and that is the one you should ban (if Brinstar isn't legal)

 

[*Cam*]

I always try to strike to Battlefield against Olimar players. I don't feel that it's a particularly bad stage for Olimar, but I don't think it feeds his advantages like FD, SV, Yoshi's, and Lylat do. I think against Olimar we can expect to spend a lot of the match not controlling the ground, so it's better to have a high platform than a low one that he can easily pressure from the safety of the ground.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

+1 to what Cam said. It makes a lot of sense to be able to have places where you can...not stay on the ground but not let him get an immense advantage when we are forced to approach.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

MMK, now that I actually have time (It's been a day or so, so I feel like double posting is whatever)



Bans: Yoshis, Castle Siege, Lylat, FD

Yoshi's is overall Olimar's best stage. The ghost (Craig) can help him survive gimps, the platform helps him camp/hinders our approach, and it is just a pain to really do anything to him on this level. I lost a match to a random Olimar in my pool at Genesis2 on this stage. Yeah....don't do it.

Lylat is pretty terrible too. The platform spacing is *** for us and good for him, he picks yellows and purples....ugh, just don't do it. Less harmful than Yoshi's, but still amazing for him.

Castle Siege is probably Olimar's 3rd best stage. The first part is a hindrance to our approaches due to the slant and platform positioning, and it seems difficult to get back onstage due to Olimar's option coverage involving the platform. The 2nd part is a super Olimar camp-fest, but that isn't too bad since we can run around above where he can camp. The 3rd part is like FD, which I'll go into right now.


FD is probably his 4th best stage. If you are comfortable enough in the essential parts of the MU, you can go here, but having nowhere to run away to kinda sucks. Considering Olimar shuts down our approaches fairly well on his own, the fact that there are no platforms to aid us is a large hindrance. If things start slipping out of our control, there is no way for us to run away to regain our positioning without getting hit by pikmin toss. Olimar Snowballs really well on this stage, which is the MAIN reason I don't like it.

Let it be known that I don't know if Olimar gets different pulls on any of these 3 stages...

CP: BF, PS2, PS1

BF is just a SUPER good Pikachu stage. It is really hard for anybody, including Olimar, to put pressure on you because of all the platforms we can QA to. The platforms are also really good spacing for our SH, which helps hit him and continue pressure strings, which we DESPERATELY NEED against Olimar. The size of the main stage allows him to uair us away from edge pressure, but our edge pressure is seldom grounded anyway, so this isn't really a bother.

PS2 is amazing for Pikachu in general, and amazing against Olimar as well. The platforms are rather high so he can't really pressure us through them sans uair while we can still pressure him easily with uairs and combo with bair or something. The size of the blastzones is probably the largest advantage we have, though, seeing as most of our kills should be gimping him regardless of %. If we still kill him at 100 and he takes 15% more to kill us, that is in our advantage.

The transformations are also beneficial to us as well. Ice = easier approaches due to approaching F-smash or D-smash (F-smash better though and less punishable due to shield slide), the platforms help us run, and I'm pretty sure they cause more Blue pikmin to be plucked, which isn't that bad for us. Rock is good if we can get the right side (Although the left would be irritating since we could probably still get Pikmin to latch to us) and Olimar can't really do anything with a wall. Air probably ****s over Olimar super hard since he has no way to get down other than just...falling. This is our chance to juggle the **** out of him and rack on a bunch of %. Unfortunately, the air can also lead to SUPER early deaths from a Purple U-smash or something...so beware his ground pressure. We can kill him early too, though, with a U-smash thunder, so it is pretty even in that regard. Electric is a nuisance for both of us, but since Olimar is worse off-stage it can pressure him into rather hilarious situations and we could possibly gimp him.


PS1 is good just because of the layout and the stalling nature of the stage. The first one is still good for our platform pressure from uair and dair and FH bair, and it gives us enough leeway to QA to them without being punishable. Also, we could definitely stage spike him or something due to the irregular shape of the ledges/under the ledge.

PS1 transformations are more stall-ish than beneficial. I believe Olimar is too light/floaty to be F-throw CG against the wall in the center of rock (I'll test). The rock transformation gives you plenty of time to think about your new options for attacking/approaching, what has been working/hasn't been working and how to adjust. This time is invaluable as normally we are making split-second decisions, but we now have 30 seconds to just think about it. Taunting is fun too. On the fire transformation, you want to be on the left side. If they approach you can b-throw them into the tree, jab them, and then pivot grab him and get a CG in the little hole to d-tilt lock (I'll make a video of it). If he doesn't approach, just chill and think like you would in rock. For water, I feel like Pikachu is better under the windmill than Olimar considering Olimar's best position is full screen. Get Olimar in there and **** him up. However, Olimar's U-smash is still really good in there, so don't just go nuts and disregard his options. Grass I have the least advice for, just play the MU like you would normally, nothing is really extravagant in this transformation.


For Striking purposes: In a 5SSL, I would definitely strike Yoshi's and Lylat. For a 7 SSL, strike Yoshi's, Lylat, and Castle Siege. Olimar normally has the stage advantage on the neutral @_@

 

[Cassio]

For Z:

MK-
Neutrals: Battlefield, FD, Ps1, SV
Ban: Delfino
CPs: Battlefield, FD, Ps1, SV

Olimar-
Neutrals: BF, Ps1, SV (avoid lylat)
Ban: FD, Lylat
CPs: BF, Ps1

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Dafuq ban Delfino? It isn't really that tough as Pikachu @_@

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

TIME FOR DIDDY KONG



Bans: SV, Lylat, FD

IMO Smashville is Diddy Kong's best stage in this MU. He has the advantage of the completely flat main stage, but he also gains the advantage of the moving platform giving him a place to run away to if we are pressuring him, as well as another place to recover. This, IMO, puts it better than FD

Lylat is rather irritating for us in this MU. Diddy still has his basic options, his recover isn't greatly hindered by the stage, and now he has a lot of places to run away to that Pikachu can't follow too well. The platforms don't really help either of us, but they do allow banana pulls to be safer since he can FH banana pull and then diddy-kick away to safety. We would need a hard read to punish that.

FD is obviously amazing for him because of the basics of Diddy gameplay which is ground control, of which he is 2nd best in the game (ICs are best). His bananas can limit our options heavily when returning to the stage and, in summation, are just a pain in the ***. However, on FD we also gain the advantage of infiniting him, which we can't on SV because of the moving platform (there is a way to do it, but it is way more technical). We also can keep the pressure on Diddy since he has nowhere to run to. THis, IMO, makes it better than SV. Still worse than like, Yoshis/BF/PS1/CS, but better than SV and Lylat. The better you get at Pikachu's basics and the true fundamentals of Brawl, the less this stage becomes bad. Then again, I have ICs so no Diddy will ever take me here xD

CPs: RC, Frigate, BF

Rainbow Cruise is obviously our go-to stage. We can camp on the boat/make sure we don't get wall infinited, then at the part where it goes up we clearly have the advantage since we aren't gimpable. We have plenty of gimmicks on the top part, including walk-off CGs and the D-throw stuffs when it is resetting. Pretty much, Diddy never gets a chance to exploit his strengths on this stage.

Frigate is good for several reasons. On the first side, it is difficult for a Diddy to recover, he can't really control the ground very well due to the moving platform, and the platform on the left isn't very good for him while it is better for us. The 2nd side is hugely beneficial because Diddy is *** on slopes. His banana pressure is highly diminished due to the arc of the banana throws. This makes the little pit GODLIKE for us because he can't really approach with bananas. Also, bananas will NORMALLY end up on the platform if he continues to use them, so we don't have an issue taking control of them/worrying about slipping on the ground.

BTW, just a tid-bit about Frigate. The platforms on the sides are on an interval. How long they stay out is random, but after they disappear, they reappear in 6 seconds. Each side is also indepedent of the other

BF is just Pikachu's best overall stage, so it is good in nearly every MU. Platforms don't help Diddy as much as us, we have great mobility, we can still infinite in the middle if we get it...yeah. Just good. This is my preference, most people wouldn't take Diddy here since he is good on neutrals, but I'm weird.

 

[Cassio]

He hates it more than Brinstar. Also I dont really think Ps1 is very good vs olimar. He can camp way better and it helps him set up his pikmin lineup to exactly the one he wants.

I also dont think Yoshis is that bad, but I agree with everything else. Also I think SV is a pretty good stage, one of the few times I like the stage.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yoshi's is definitely that bad against Olimar. We have trouble approaching as it is and we don't need MORE trouble because of a slanted ****ing platform.

Also, he is ******** for hating it more than Brinstar. The only reason Delfino is annoying is because of sharking and MK can constantly shark on Brinstar...like...no logic can explain that.