Stage Counterpick Chart (WIP)

[*Cam*]

You aren't weird ESAM, I take Diddy Kongs to BF too. It's my favorite stage.

EDIT: How are we against Diddy on Halberd or Delphino?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

They are both OK. He has a spike so water is a pain, he can walk us off with banana locks, there are a lot of places where he can exploit things better than we can.

 

[Cassio]

Why would a slanted slope make a difference? I find it extremely useful to have two different paths to approach, the only way I could see it being an issue is if purples get out of control or arent dealt with correctly.

Also according to Z pikachu can take advantage of some of the stages mechanics on brinstar too.

btw 100% agree with SV and diddy. Same with BF. Where would you go in japanese ruleset if they ban BF or you win there?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would probably go PS1.

 

[Pikabunz]

What do you guys think about RC and Brinstar vs Olimar? Both stages force Olimar to move and be off the ground a lot. Would they be okay picks against Olimar? RC has won me sets against Olimar because of the dthrow cg to uthrow kill you can do there.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

<3 RC against Olimar. I guess I forgot it. RC is probably the best stage, but I'm assuming it will be banned (Maybe not against me since I have ICs). I beat RB there at Genesis2.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

**** delfino vs olimar @.@ my only exp vs olimar on rainbow cruise is vs fino who has always been very good on it so idk, brinstar could be good but you cant really gimp him easily due to the acid

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Just one thing I'd like to point out: slants only "mess up" pika's QAC if you don't know exactly how it works. It changes it, but in some cases it's better.
If you QA into an upward slope, you get an extra bit of lag before you land. If you QA into downward slopes that are steep enough, you float for a bit. So you can actually nair before you can jump. It makes it real easy to float a nair off the ledge on either side of yoshi's. And on the middle platform when it's on an angle.

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't know much about Diddy, but I guess BF and SV would be fine against him. RC and Brinstar might be okay too. Ban FD, right?

 

[Cassio]

Nooooooo Smashville DA WORST Read ESAMS post, I agree with it too + small stage = harder to avoid BS even with the one platform.

 

[Pikabunz]

Ah, I didn't see his post. ESAM sure does hate Lylat. It doesn't seem like it would be that bad vs Diddy. I prefer it over YI at least.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm pretty sure Lylat is my least favorite stage other than Brinstar. IDK, the constant change hinders Pikachu a lot and nothing about the stage is good for him. The platform layout messes up camping while not really helping in the pressure department, the length of the stage makes it difficult to go under the stage, and it just has more advantages for others.

Nice Kyuubi avatar, Prime.

 

[*Cam*]

I just played at a tournament with Player-1 and no Dave's Stupid Rule. **** that ****. Seriously, I have to go to Smashville twice in one set vs Diddy Kong? I didn't realize how important that rule was until I remembered how polarizing Smashville and FD can be for some characters.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

FD is stil better than SV against Diddy Kong.

 

[Cassio]

It seems like we (collectively) have some fairly strong different opinions about stages in general, thats kind of odd bc I thought everyone mostly felt the same way about most of them.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

from my readings of posts and such around here ive always felt like stages are very diverse in our group. everyone seems to have a couple stages they are good on, and they rarely coincide

like im pretty certain im weird for liking to take diddy to halberd but it always seems to work for me

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Nah, Halberd seems really good for Diddy, but I would prefer Frigate and RC to Halberd (Or just go ICs).

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm pretty sure Lylat is my least favorite stage other than Brinstar. IDK, the constant change hinders Pikachu a lot and nothing about the stage is good for him. The platform layout messes up camping while not really helping in the pressure department, the length of the stage makes it difficult to go under the stage, and it just has more advantages for others.

Nice Kyuubi avatar, Prime.

I don't think the stage moving hinders Pika at all. Being on the lower slant parts of the stage gives Pika a slight advantage position. Some of his attacks will aim higher and it helps him avoid some of his opponent's attacks, like bananas will go over him if he's low enough. The platform layout isn't that bad either. With all the platforms being so low, your jolts wrapping around the platforms will be able to hit smaller characters and your upsmashes will hit easier and harder I believe. Also, this stage is harder for Diddy to recover on than YI. You can't even go under the stage on YI and YI has that ghost platform that could actually help Diddy recover.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I like using my T-jolts for ground control and forcing the opponent to do something. Since the platforms interrupt, I only control a small amount of space, which is meh for me since my game is mostly about option limiting. I agree that the slant can be beneficial sometimes, but I would prefer Yoshi's for that kind of thing since it is constant. The moving of Lylat also messes up my landing timings and autocancels. It can also mess up/aid CGs, but I would prefer consistency to anything else.

 

[Nordal]

Lolwut, Lylat is and always has been terrible for pikachu. The low platforms help a little with thunderjolts, but it sucks for like, everything else. It screws him waaaaaaaaay more than helping him.

 

[Cassio]

Well its more complicate than how much it screws or helps pika, it depends on how well it screws and helps the other character too. A stage like RC isnt the most ideal pick for pika as a character, but because of how hard it screws over other characters is becomes pretty awesome.

For instance, it turns out to be a pretttty good stage vs peach and spacies (maybe not as much wolf). Like I mentioned before Tyrant also hates this stage as MK, but I need to ask him more about that.

With YI and Lylat I feel like no ones really bothered to learn the stage too much. I used to haaaaaate yoshis but Im really starting to love it more than almost all of pikas other picks. Lylat I would more or less agree with ESAMs opinion, but Im starting to think that maybe people just dont play enough there. I think overall the stage movement is very annoying for many MUs and definitely not worth it if youre not familiar with it, but it follows a predictable pattern where it could be a very strong tool for pika to have if he comes to understand the stage for having the benefit of another neutral youre ok striking to.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I play on every stage pretty much equally. The SFL crew I play with turn on every legal stage and just play with random.

Also, RC is probably a top 3 stage for Pika overall, so many gimmicks and he gets screwed over less than every other character.

 

[Nordal]

It's not even about whether or not you get 'good' on lylat. The stage has very few benefits for pikachu. You have some uair ledge stuff that goes through the lip, you have some extended cgs (and sometimes they get screwed over), and platforms benefit t jolts (but screw everything else). The cons outweigh the pros heavily, so it really doesn't matter how 'good' you get at it because you're taking advantage of fewer benefits than say RC has to offer.

 

[Cassio]

IMO frequently playing on something alone doesnt necessarily make you proficient on the stage (in the same playing the game a lot doesnt make you good at it). I dunno, I cant comment on lylat too much because thats definitely a stage Im not too familiar probably because its just harder to learn compared to most stages anyways. Maybe it is a terrible stage for pika, I just feel most people write it off before anyones seriously tried it. I hope at some point I can change opinions with yoshis at least.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lylat has never bugged me at all -shrug i have no problems going to that stage, and i cp it vs chars with shaky recoveries. when i beat kos mos back in the day, when he was considered the best peach it was because i cpd lylat

 

[Nordal]

Lylat is pretty terrible for peach as well.

 

[Ayce God]

what's a good counter pick stage for marth?

 

[*Cam*]

what's a good counter pick stage for marth?

For Marth against Pikachu? Brinstar, Lylat, or Battlefield

For Pikachu against Marth? FD or RC

 

[Nordal]

FD, PS1, and RC are all best against marth. BF isn't bad at all.

 

[*Cam*]

I don't think PS1 is a bad stage for Marth though.

 

[Ayce God]

it is, and that transformation is annoying. take spade there. you'll beat em.

 

[*Cam*]

I DID take Spade there last Saturday at the tournament. I got 3-stocked that match, whereas I beat him on SV. I'm not saying one match should be the end all-be all of deciding these things, but I don't see why Marth would not love all the low platforms on this stage. Yeah, our tjolts go across some boundaries, but you can just jab them away.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I don't think you guys truly understand the fabulosity of the BF platforms. They are the perfect height for uair pressure, they are the perfect height for d-throw uair footstool, they are amazing for QA mix-ups and multiple extra recovery options, they give you pretty much everything you could ever want on a platform.

Against Marth, Pikachu should CP Frigate, RC, and FD. Marth should CP Pikachu to Lylat, Yoshis, or SV.

 

[*Cam*]

I'm not disagreeing, but can you explain the advantages of Frigate?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'll break it down from the transformations

1st transformation: Obviously there is the whole "left side having no ledge" thing which is INFINITELY more beneficial for Pikachu than for Marth. If he gets hit off and Pikachu plays patient enough, he should be taking a good 50-60% easy, and possibly death. Other than that, the size of the stage helps eliminate Marth's walling since there isn't much room to go backwards. Also, the platform doesn't really help him in terms of mix-ups, so if you just land on it outside of his ranges you are fine. The platform helps Pikachu get off the ledge as well (I really need to record a Pikachu ledge trick video or something). Pretty much you can QA up and then down-right and you will ledge cancel your QA and you can jump away to the right safely (Again, if he follows you he is putting himself in a disadvantageous position). The platform does weaken T-jolt pressure off-stage, which is detrimental to Pikachu, but it also makes ledge-jumps REALLY easy to punish, so I'll take that trade.

The 2nd part is awesome for us. If we control the center of the dip, he has a REALLY tough time approaching since his fair is kinda slow below and in front of him, and he is quite punishable considering it takes him longer to land the farther down the slope he goes (Making fair up-b a worse option). We can anti air him with AU f-tilt, pivot f-smash, dash U-smash (Not every time, you have to get a grasp for their timing before committing to an option like that), or maybe like uair. The platform gives Marth 0 advantages while it still allows us to poke through it and pressure and gives us a place to wrap T-jolts. If Marth controls the middle, nothing is really lost. Hell, it actually benefits us to be uphill from him because his fair will hit our shield earlier (assuming you shield it, of course) and we have more time to punish. We can still have our T-jolts help get in, or at least force an option out of the marth, and we can still mindgame him with QA on the platform. Don't rely on too much platform game, though, since marth can like...aerial the whole thing. He won't want to commit to an aerial option, though, because if he misreads you now control the center.

Good?

 

[*Cam*]

Yep, thanks for humoring me. It's nice to have an analysis of the stage advantages against Marth considering I lose to one at every other tournament.

 

[Ayce God]

esam pretty much invented pikachu. he so smart. to bad i hear hes a jerk.
and its weird cam, maybe i have to play spade, but watching him doesnt impress me.
i can tell hes good but idk i think you should be beating him. player 3 is pretty legit though.
good luck with that one.

 

[Nordal]

The slant also let's us get a regrab from f throw.... I think. The 1st transformation (left side) makes pressuring him on the ledge different, but still a nightmare for him. SH Dair will beat most things he can do from the ledge, and if he ledge jumps (as ESAM stated) he probably has to land on the platform above us, and we all know how that works for him. We also get more benefits from the right side than he does. We get d throw gimmicks, f throw cg on the wall, harder punishes vs his recovery, and probably more. He gets harder punishes vs our recovery and a temporary D tilt lock against the wall.

 

[Cassio]

Ive realized that style can be really significant when picking a stage against marth. An aggressive Marth can take good advantage of a stage with platforms, but if youre playing a Marth thats just gonna sit there and react to your commitments *cough* Shaya *cough* than platforms and stage variability make life much easier for pika.

/cant sleep

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

esam pretty much invented pikachu. he so smart. to bad i hear hes a jerk.

I'm not a jerk