Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

It's not really arbitrary. Pretty much everyone who supports that stage's argument is "transformations 1 and 3 are good enough to warrant tolerating transformation 2". However, if you have an abundance of stages where all transformations are good, you can be a bit more picky about what we allow. And there's a lot of viable-looking transforming stages now:

Wuhu Island
Isle Delfino
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Port Town Aero Drive?


So it's not like we're suddenly banning them all.

Well Castle Siege is pretty different from All of those save Pokemon Stadium 2. And one of the two complaints has been fixed in the removal of chaingrabbing makes the walk-offs not awful. The statues still blocks projectiles, but that no reason to warrant banning.
Port Town Aero Dive still has most of the problems it did in brawl with no grabbable ledges, random stops, way too awesome music, and overpowerful hazards. It seems the cars power has been toned down a bit though. I'd still be for the stage, although it's much harder to argue for than most other stages.

 

[Terotrous]

The statues still blocks projectiles, but that no reason to warrant banning.

And destales moves, interrupts moves like Quick Draw, and builds KO punch. Also, that layout is very circle campy.

Port Town Aero Dive still has most of the problems it did in brawl with no grabbable ledges, random stops, way too awesome music, and overpowerful hazards. It seems the cars power has been toned down a bit though. I'd still be for the stage, although it's much harder to argue for than most other stages.

Probably. I heard it got toned down but I'd need to test it out and see that the cars are way less dangerous than they were before.

 

[Piford]

And destales moves, interrupts moves like Quick Draw, and builds KO punch. Also, that layout is very circle campy.

I'm pretty sure its hard to circle camp on it since theres no hard platforms and it' a 1 way circle, meaning its easy to intersect. Ike thing is a good point (although i'm not sure how much competitive use Ike will get anyways), but I thought stage hitboxes don't build up the KO meter.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Ike can (and mostly will) just use Side B2 anyways

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pretty sure its hard to circle camp on it since theres no hard platforms and it' a 1 way circle, meaning its easy to intersect. Ike thing is a good point (although i'm not sure how much competitive use Ike will get anyways), but I thought stage hitboxes don't build up the KO meter.

Stage hitboxes do not build up the KO meter. Tested on the statues in Arena Ferox and the weird platform supports in Brinstar.

Taking damage from a stage hazard does build the meter, but that's probably a given.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm pretty sure its hard to circle camp on it since theres no hard platforms and it' a 1 way circle, meaning its easy to intersect. Ike thing is a good point (although i'm not sure how much competitive use Ike will get anyways), but I thought stage hitboxes don't build up the KO meter.

Hmm, I heard that any hitbox does it. Time to test on Arena Ferox.

Yeah, looks like Stage hitboxes don't work for it.

 

[Piford]

Okay so were all good on castle siege now right? I think its a stage most people are automatically accepting anyways since it is legal in Brawl.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay so were all good on castle siege now right? I think its a stage most people are automatically accepting anyways since it is legal in Brawl.

Eh, it's still not high on my list of priorities to be legal. I'll live if it is, but I certainly wouldn't waste time fighting for it.

 

[Piford]

Eh, it's still not high on my list of priorities to be legal. I'll live if it is, but I certainly wouldn't waste time fighting for it.

It's not hard to fight for it. For any legal stage in brawl, usually linking people to the stage list makes them think its fine.
Edit:
Did anyone see this video of Mushroom Kingdom U? There's no sign of Nabbit, The Ice, or Water spouts. Is there some way to turn off the hazards in this stage?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It's not hard to fight for it. For any legal stage in brawl, usually linking people to the stage list makes them think its fine.
Edit:
Did anyone see this video of Mushroom Kingdom U? There's no sign of Nabbit, The Ice, or Water spouts. Is there some way to turn off the hazards in this stage?

Who knows, maybe there is some sort of setting that turns them off like the 4 players in the 3DS game. For all we know though, it could be RNG.

 

[Piford]

Who knows, maybe there is some sort of setting that turns them off like the 4 players in the 3DS game. For all we know though, it could be RNG.

I'm really hoping there's some way to trigger it. Who knows maybe forcing it to play this one song is what does it.

 

[Zwzchow]

We can hope that the so called turn hazards off thing in the 3DS is more easily activated in the Wii U (oh yes legal Kalos please)

 

[BestTeaMaker]

The way that Mushroom Kingdom U works is that the hazards seem to cycle randomly. The hazards include scrolling blocks, beansprout, water spouts, and icicles. From a first glance, it doesn't seem like there is a pattern.

The biggest problem for me about this stage is the icicle. They look too powerful and they create giant walls that freeze gameplay, no pun intended.

Also, the only reason we saw hazards turn off in the 3DS was due to the fact that having multiple players taxed the CPU, leading to certain elements of certain stages to not load.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ BestTeaMaker is probably right, the only reason such a no hazard thing existed was because of the 3DS. I wouldn't expect it to exist at all on the Wii U.

 

[Slyphoria]

The way that Mushroom Kingdom U works is that the hazards seem to cycle randomly. The hazards include scrolling blocks, beansprout, water spouts, and icicles. From a first glance, it doesn't seem like there is a pattern.

The biggest problem for me about this stage is the icicle. They look too powerful and they create giant walls that freeze gameplay, no pun intended.

Also, the only reason we saw hazards turn off in the 3DS was due to the fact that having multiple players taxed the CPU, leading to certain elements of certain stages to not load.

Though with the icicles, there is some indication of where they're going to fall before they do, so the damage aspect isn't as important. Most of them seem to fall on the sides, so it's not a normal wall, and it seems to go down in 2 hits anyways.

 

[Piford]

The icicles come from the ceiling and drip before they drop. And they break in two hits.

 

[guedes the brawler]

do you guys think it will be a problem if we need, i dunno, 8 players to deactivate a hazard?

 

[Piford]

do you guys think it will be a problem if we need, i dunno, 8 players to deactivate a hazard?

Even if we used stages only under deactivating hazards and assuming the game allows you to do that (it won't considering Metal Face still shows up in 8 player Smash), there's no stage with hazards that is available for 8 player smash that doesn't already have problems with it.

 

[Slyphoria]

do you guys think it will be a problem if we need, i dunno, 8 players to deactivate a hazard?

If it stays deactivated, then not really. Could use level 1 CPUs with a high handicap if not enough controllers for it.

Even if we used stages only under deactivating hazards and assuming the game allows you to do that (it won't considering Metal Face still shows up in 8 player Smash), there's no stage with hazards that is available for 8 player smash that doesn't already have problems with it.

Also that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Even if we used stages only under deactivating hazards and assuming the game allows you to do that (it won't considering Metal Face still shows up in 8 player Smash), there's no stage with hazards that is available for 8 player smash that doesn't already have problems with it.

For starters they're all pretty huge.

 

[Piford]

For starters they're all pretty huge.

Well besides Battlefield and Castle Siege. I really don't understand how they thought Caste Siege was a good idea for 8 players

 

[Thinkaman]

Well besides Battlefield and Castle Siege. I really don't understand how they thought Caste Siege was a good idea for 8 players

It was probably a "why not" decision.

Transformation 2 is probably great for it, and 3 is not much worse than FD.

 

[Slyphoria]

Well besides Battlefield and Castle Siege. I really don't understand how they thought Caste Siege was a good idea for 8 players

Kongo Jungle 64 is also open for 8 player Smash. I was going to get a video but Beanman25Jr removed it from his channel, finally. It was a mess, but somehow, it worked.

 

[Piford]

Kongo Jungle 64 is also open for 8 player Smash. I was going to get a video but Beanman25Jr removed it from his channel, finally. It was a mess, but somehow, it worked.

But Congo Jungle 64 is actually big enough to support it. I still think it can work in singles since its slightly smaller and this game has a different engine than melee and what not.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I gotta say guys, looking at a lot of the stops on Wuhu Island, I'm actually legitimately concerned about it being legal. I've seen some pictures of as lot of the transformations and almost all of them look really bad. It seems from videos it around 15 seconds a transformation so it's not too horrible, but man are these things are really bad looking. Has anyone else taken a look at these? Almost every single one of them is honestly terrible to play on.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I gotta say guys, looking at a lot of the stops on Wuhu Island, I'm actually legitimately concerned about it being legal. I've seen some pictures of as lot of the transformations and almost all of them look really bad. It seems from videos it around 15 seconds a transformation so it's not too horrible, but man are these things are really bad looking. Has anyone else taken a look at these? Almost every single one of them is honestly terrible to play on.

...Um...Like? You didn't mention a single terrible thing about it...

I'm curious at what you are worried about. All I can think of is that the majority have walk offs.

 

[SonicZeroX]

From what I can recall, there's a bridge, a volcano, a beach, a rock cliff, and a starting line. There's probably more but I can't recall them atm.

The starting line is basically a slanted FD but with water underneath it.

The rock cliff is a slanted FD. One half is a ledge, the other half is walkoff.

The beach is a walkoff with no hazards, plain and simple.

The volcano is kind of guar plain-esque where there's platforms on the edges on the volcano, but you can fall right down the middle into the volcano itself.

The bridge is probably the worst one. It's a broken rope bridge with essentially 3 platforms with holes separating them. Also the bridge parts on the edge are walkoffs.

I think there's a fountain too but it's basically a flat walkoff.


It kinda sounds bad with all of the walkoffs, but Delfino had a lot of walkoff landings too and it wasn't banned for those as much as it was because of Metashark.

The worst parts are probably the Volcano and the Bridge because of the holes + walkoffs, but I don't think it's that bad.

 

[Zwzchow]

My guess is that he will bring up the Jet Ski and the Volcano transformations <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGulnBaefAw#t=415> (Have walls)

And probably the glider skimming the water

 

[SonicZeroX]

My guess is that he will bring up the Jet Ski and the Volcano transformations <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGulnBaefAw#t=415> (Have walls)

And probably the glider skimming the water

Oh I missed the sword fighting battleground, which is basically just FD.

There's no problems with the walls because there's no wall infinites.


Oh yeah another thing to note is the travel pattern of the stage seem to be totally random, as opposed to other stages which usually travel in a fixed order.

Wait was Delfino random too? I can't seem to remember.


Found another part, you land on a boat that's travelling through water. I didn't see anyone touch the water but I assume it has Jungle Japes/Spirit Tracks like effects

 

[Zwzchow]

Oh I missed the sword fighting battleground, which is basically just FD.

There's no problems with the walls because there's no wall infinites.

Yea so it's essentially similar to delfino with less water transformations.

Eh how about Skyloft then
Off the top of my head there aren't any very significant problems with it other than a few walk offs and shenanigans
1. Belltower
2. The bridge (neutral walkoffs)
3. Hylia statue
4. The Light Tower (the pavilion thing)
5. The cliff (similar to Wuhu Island's)
6. The hut
7. Bird nest windmill
8. The underground part shown in the bomb-chu footage in the direct

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well each walkoff, but I know those are temporary so no big deal. But this, this, this, and this, do worry me. It is only for 15 seconds though. I don't think it's probably banable or anything but they really aren't great transformations. People are going to complain about this. How shall we counter that?

 

[Zwzchow]

Well each walkoff, but I know those are temporary so no big deal. But this, this, this, and this, do worry me. It is only for 15 seconds though. I don't think it's probably banable or anything but they really aren't great transformations. People are going to complain about this. How shall we counter that?

The left rock for the second one is a walk off?
Edit: nvm
But just asking are you mainly concerned about the water?

 

[LiteralGrill]

The left rock for the second one is a walk off?
Edit: nvm
But just asking are you mainly concerned about the water?

The water isn't horrible, just the layouts in general are kind of bad for trying to fight on from the looks of things.

 

[Slyphoria]

The water is horrible, just the layouts in general are kind of bad for trying to fight on from the looks of things.

You're only at the spots for 15 seconds anyways.

The layouts are a bit different, but they look perfectly fine to me. Counterpick it up.

This video has footage of 3 of the spots you were concerned about.

 

[Piford]

People have to remember that most of the time your on the floating surf boards. I think the only transformation thats actually bad is probably the bridge. I don't think the Volcano is as bad, but it could be problematic. Any other ones are solved by the fact they are temporary.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I guess to be fair you have to camp less then on PS1 at a bare minimum.

 

[Piford]

I guess to be fair you have to camp less then on PS1 at a bare minimum.

But by the nature of how the stage rises, camping on most transformations puts you in a bad position for when the stage comes back right? This means its disadvantageous to camp most of the time.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

My personal issue with Wuhu Island is that it looks really big, possibly too big for Singles to play on. That beach transformation and the length of the surfboard seems to point to it being a stage more for 4+ players.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

My personal issue with Wuhu Island is that it looks really big, possibly too big for Singles to play on. That beach transformation and the length of the surfboard seems to point to it being a stage more for 4+ players.

It is temporary though, so I'd be surprised to see it for Doubles only for that specific reason

 

[LiteralGrill]

My personal issue with Wuhu Island is that it looks really big, possibly too big for Singles to play on. That beach transformation and the length of the surfboard seems to point to it being a stage more for 4+ players.

I was wondering if anyone else was thinking about its size too, it does look really big.