Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Slyphoria]

I don't see it...?

I had to search around for it, found it here.

 

[smashmachine]

I had to search around for it, found it here.

link doesn't work

 

[Slyphoria]

link doesn't work

Works for me. If you got the "Ow!" page, then just refresh.

Edit: Oh, I must've copy-pasted it twice on accident. Fixed.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Footage of Wii Fit Studio has surfaced. The platforms come and go in different arrangements but no actual hazards to speak of apparently.

If ever a walk off could be legal, this would be the one. Minus a few platforms being a bit high at times this stage is perfect (for a walk off). The video convinced me to at least keep it on my "to test" list now. (Which as we learn more has obviously been dwindling down a ton.)

 

[Slyphoria]

I don't know if it matters anymore but the CPU Little Mac mashed out of Nabbit's bag. It's seems like a somewhat high level CPU, like a 7 or 8.

 

[Dre89]

What do people think of Jungle Hijynxs?

At first I thought definitely banned because of the ability to stall, but if you try use the barrels for a second time too soon they will explode.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't know if it matters anymore but the CPU Little Mac mashed out of Nabbit's bag. It's seems like a somewhat high level CPU, like a 7 or 8.

That's definitely relevant, very important actually. Nabbit takes a very long time to actually drag you off; the big question here is the percentage range at which an ordinary competitive player will be able to mash out and live (note that level 9 AI mash faster than 99% of tournament players). If Nabbit is realistically death at any percentage under 80%, I don't see things working out. If he's not fatal even at 150%, he's merely obnoxious and not actually a threat at all. If he's a killer in some middle range, it's harder and more ambiguous. Unfortunately, mashing out doesn't seem to get rid of Nabbit so that's another layer of trouble to consider (Nabbit seems pretty disruptive even when not dealing fatal blows), but this is very good news for this stage remaining in the running.

 

[Slyphoria]

That's definitely relevant, very important actually. Nabbit takes a very long time to actually drag you off; the big question here is the percentage range at which an ordinary competitive player will be able to mash out and live (note that level 9 AI mash faster than 99% of tournament players).

Going by the videos on either side (#81 and #79), the Little Mac was likely level 9.

Let's hope this is able to be mashed out of. I really like the stage otherwise.

 

[SonicZeroX]

It always explodes at the same time so it's completely the Greninja's fault. Don't do a divekick when the floor is about to vanish unless you're damn sure it'll hit.

But there are plenty of situations where you have NO control, such as if you're recovering and go for the sweetspot, but then the stage explodes and you die. I'm sure if that ever happened in a real match then people would instantly swear off the stage forever.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yeah, looks like OGA won't last. Shame too, as Prism Tower and Wuhu show that Sakurai and his team CAN do transforming stages very well. They just messed up this one, the coolest-looking one of all

 

[BestTeaMaker]

What do people think of Jungle Hijynxs?

At first I thought definitely banned because of the ability to stall, but if you try use the barrels for a second time too soon they will explode.

The problem with Jungle Hijinks is that there is a transformation that forces stage-switching. If you doing land in a barrel when the land gives way, you will immediately die.

 

[HiNiTe]

But there are plenty of situations where you have NO control, such as if you're recovering and go for the sweetspot, but then the stage explodes and you die. I'm sure if that ever happened in a real match then people would instantly swear off the stage forever.

Maybe, but the chances of this happening in an actual fight are slim. Unless you're a complete idiot, you will know where the next transformation will appear and you'll go for that spot rather than the ledge. Honestly, you can't generalize that situation. There's also the fact that Orbital Gate clearly has areas that are safe zones for recovery (notably the center of the stage) if this does by some chance actually happens, and the next transformation will appear before you die. The only transformation that is problematic with this stage is the "explosion" part, because you have to jump up a bit. Otherwise, every other transformation simply moves out and the next platform appears instantly.

Seriously, you're acting as if this stage is like an exact copy of Poke Floats. Furthermore, only a few characters in the game with a poor recovery will have the problem you mentioned, making it an effective counterpick against those characters.

Also, I feel people are still a bit out-of-the-loop about this stage. There are almost no stage hazards, the only one that we know of does, at most, 10% damage and no knockback. The lasers and the "explosion" are purely cosmetic as far as we know.

Yeah, looks like OGA won't last. Shame too, as Prism Tower and Wuhu show that Sakurai and his team CAN do transforming stages very well. They just messed up this one, the coolest-looking one of all

I like how this implies the stage is automatically "ruined" just because it doesn't meet "our" ideal criteria of a neutral.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I like how this implies the stage is automatically "ruined" just because it doesn't meet "our" ideal criteria of a neutral.

It just doesnt look fun to play on from the footage I've seen. As a neutral or counterpick.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Maybe, but the chances of this happening in an actual fight are slim. Unless you're a complete idiot, you will know where the next transformation will appear and you'll go for that spot rather than the ledge. Honestly, you can't generalize that situation. There's also the fact that Orbital Gate clearly has areas that are safe zones for recovery (notably the center of the stage) if this does by some chance actually happens, and the next transformation will appear before you die. The only transformation that is problematic with this stage is the "explosion" part, because you have to jump up a bit. Otherwise, every other transformation simply moves out and the next platform appears instantly.

Seriously, you're acting as if this stage is like an exact copy of Poke Floats. Furthermore, only a few characters in the game with a poor recovery will have the problem you mentioned, making it an effective counterpick against those characters.

Also, I feel people are still a bit out-of-the-loop about this stage. There are almost no stage hazards, the only one that we know of does, at most, 10% damage and no knockback. The lasers and the "explosion" are purely cosmetic as far as we know.


I like how this implies the stage is automatically "ruined" just because it doesn't meet "our" ideal criteria of a neutral.

I'm pretty much only talking about that one transformation part. Everything else seems fine but that one part seems like it will just steal a lot of stocks because as I mentioned earlier the next part of the stage does NOT rise from under you. Also it occurs quite frequently from what I've seen.

Heck it's WORSE than pokefloats because at least every time a platform disappeared, the next one would usually come up from below to save you. Not the case when the stage explodes in that one part.

 

[LiteralGrill]

As much as it sucks, people probably need to give up on Orbital Assault. It probably is honestly a stage that could be just fine to play on for the most part, but people just aren't going to want to when:

But there are plenty of situations where you have NO control, such as if you're recovering and go for the sweetspot, but then the stage explodes and you die. I'm sure if that ever happened in a real match then people would instantly swear off the stage forever.

One person saw someone get hit by a car on Rainbow Road on a stream and everyone started asking us to ban it. It doesn't take much sadly. (Though the cars ARE intrusive there a bit.) Let's focus on the stages we don't want to leave no matter what or are close on the edge of legal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pretty much only talking about that one transformation part. Everything else seems fine but that one part seems like it will just steal a lot of stocks because as I mentioned earlier the next part of the stage does NOT rise from under you. Also it occurs quite frequently from what I've seen.

Heck it's WORSE than pokefloats because at least every time a platform disappeared, the next one would usually come up from below to save you. Not the case when the stage explodes in that one part.

The specific transformation you speak of happens only once per cycle. There is another missile that also explodes but the Arwings that pop up after that one seem easier to land on. (Also they fly sideways.)

Again, Orbital Gate Assault is completely predictable and you can memorize the rough order of the stage events after only one or two matches. (Exact timings take more practice of course.) The only way I can see it causing a lot of deaths is if you're using a character with a bad recovery and the opponent keeps taking opportunities to hit you as the stage transitions, in which case a) you got outplayed and b) what the hell are you doing picking a character with a bad recovery on Orbital Gate Assault.

As much as it sucks, people probably need to give up on Orbital Assault. It probably is honestly a stage that could be just fine to play on for the most part, but people just aren't going to want to when:



One person saw someone get hit by a car on Rainbow Road on a stream and everyone started asking us to ban it. It doesn't take much sadly. (Though the cars ARE intrusive there a bit.) Let's focus on the stages we don't want to leave no matter what or are close on the edge of legal.

I get your point, but when there is almost literally nothing wrong with Orbital Gate Assault other than "remember to jump here," I'm less inclined to listen.

 

[Piford]

As much as it sucks, people probably need to give up on Orbital Assault. It probably is honestly a stage that could be just fine to play on for the most part, but people just aren't going to want to when:



One person saw someone get hit by a car on Rainbow Road on a stream and everyone started asking us to ban it. It doesn't take much sadly. (Though the cars ARE intrusive there a bit.) Let's focus on the stages we don't want to leave no matter what or are close on the edge of legal.

What stages should we focus on then. To me Orbital Gate Assault seems completely legal and one of the ones we should be fighting for. Most people are on board for most of the stages. Of coarse there are people who think Town and City should be banned because the platforms can carry you off screen, and apparently now a lot of people think platforms are hazards and that only FD should be legal, but those people are just the vocal minority. You're mostly going to here the extremist opinions since people aren't going to post moderate ones. I think stages worth fighting for are probably Orbital Gate Assault, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Mario Circuit (Wii U). since most people would accept the stages they are "more legal" then they are.

 

[SonicZeroX]

What stages should we focus on then. To me Orbital Gate Assault seems completely legal and one of the ones we should be fighting for. Most people are on board for most of the stages. Of coarse there are people who think Town and City should be banned because the platforms can carry you off screen, and apparently now a lot of people think platforms are hazards and that only FD should be legal, but those people are just the vocal minority. You're mostly going to here the extremist opinions since people aren't going to post moderate ones. I think stages worth fighting for are probably Orbital Gate Assault, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Mario Circuit (Wii U). since most people would accept the stages they are "more legal" then they are.

I already mentioned this earlier, but I think we should first focus on the stages that are in the grey area but closer to neutral because there will always be conservative TOs and if we don't at least establish these stages then there's no way the others will be considered + we could end up with a Japanese level stage list (ie. Battlefield and FD ONLY)

The main ones are the traveling ones like Delfino, Wuhu, and Skyloft. Some people seem to be taking for granted that oh there's no hazards they should be fine but we really need to take a careful look at the entire stage or else people will just pick apart anything they don't like. (such as delfino's water back in Brawl)

We should also double check that Halberd, Castle Siege, and Lylat are essentially unchanged from Brawl. There's always the possibility of things like Haliberd's hazards being buffed. It's hard to say without direct evidence so we should try.

Finally there's Pilot Wings with it's extreme tilting, which may or may not cause problems in actual matches.

The thing is while I DO agree that an innocent until proven guilty stance should be taken when analyzing stages, I think it needs to be kept in mind that for many players the opposite is true because they much prefer to play on stages where the stage itself can never cause wins and only the player's skill matters.
Thus when trying to prove a stage should be legal we can't simply state 'oh it's not THAT bad therefore it should be legal', and instead we need to thoroughly prove that each stage is fair and does not result in degenerative gameplay.

 

[Piford]

I already mentioned this earlier, but I think we should first focus on the stages that are in the grey area but closer to neutral because there will always be conservative TOs and if we don't at least establish these stages then there's no way the others will be considered + we could end up with a Japanese level stage list (ie. Battlefield and FD ONLY)

The main ones are the traveling ones like Delfino, Wuhu, and Skyloft. Some people seem to be taking for granted that oh there's no hazards they should be fine but we really need to take a careful look at the entire stage or else people will just pick apart anything they don't like. (such as delfino's water back in Brawl)

We should also double check that Halberd, Castle Siege, and Lylat are essentially unchanged from Brawl. There's always the possibility of things like Haliberd's hazards being buffed. It's hard to say without direct evidence so we should try.

Finally there's Pilot Wings with it's extreme tilting, which may or may not cause problems in actual matches.

The thing is while I DO agree that an innocent until proven guilty stance should be taken when analyzing stages, I think it needs to be kept in mind that for many players the opposite is true because they much prefer to play on stages where the stage itself can never cause wins and only the player's skill matters.
Thus when trying to prove a stage should be legal we can't simply state 'oh it's not THAT bad therefore it should be legal', and instead we need to thoroughly prove that each stage is fair and does not result in degenerative gameplay.

I think most people accept Skyloft. People who don't think Wuhu and Delphino should be say that it should be banned because of the water, which is obviously not a reason to ban it.
Castle Siege second and third forms are unchanged, but the first form is a bit bigger.
Lylat is completely unchanged from the footage we've seen.
Halberd is the same but I've never seen footage of someone getting hit by any hazard, so the damage could be different.
Pilot wings tilting is based off of the background and always follows the same pattern.

 

[New_Dumal]

I understand why walk off stages have problems, but I disagree about them not being counterpick viable.
I will explain why :
"Counterpicks are stages that should change the way the match is played, give a certain character advantage...."

Against walk off there's fair arguments.
"No ledge game, off stage play and detracting from center stage dominance"
The three things above do not destroy Smash gameplay.
If there's too much camping, there's time limit after all.
If the enemy bait you closer to the blast zone, you usually have options.
Detracting a local dominance is exactly what counterpick is about.

There's stage ban.There's no chaingrab.
We already played with chaingrabs in Delfino and Castle Siege, that has walk off in certain intervals.
We can not accept the number of walk off stages to be bigger than the the number of stage bans.
I think if we have 2 stages there's walk off, 3 stages ban, for example.
But at least ONE walk off stage must be debatable. In Wii U, Coliseum/Wii Fit Studio looks nice.

We need to have a more open mind about some aspects in counterpicks this time, since we have no chaingrab and no edge hog(this last thing I ultimately don't liked at all).It's nice to remember that projectiles are nerfed.

 

[SonicZeroX]

A lot of walk off stages usually tend to have a number of other terrible things in them too to really sour people's opinions of them. Like Brawl had Mario Circuit, Mario Bros, and Flatzone and those stages were terrible with or without walkoffs.

However Coliseum and Wii Fit basically look like the FD/Battlefield of walkoffs so I think they're worth giving a shot. Galaxy also seem to have no hazards but it's kind of trippy and might give some people vertigo or something.


On another note, I really hope big battlefield is legal because with all of those platforms the combo potential is insane

 

[New_Dumal]

Galaxy also seem to have no hazards but it's kind of trippy and might give some people vertigo or something.

Super Mario Galaxy looks awesome, but unfortanely is not "just" walk off.
If I remember well, there's a "weird physic" in gravity, and this is what is needed to kill viability.
Even in "just" walk off stages, are too much to look into it.
If the stage is too large the game will probably always end in time limit against certain players.
This makes me think Wii Fit Studio is better than Coliseu, anyway.

The problem with Jungle Hijinks is that there is a transformation that forces stage-switching. If you doing land in a barrel when the land gives way, you will immediately die.

This kills me from inside.
WHY SAKURAI ? Why don't make one legal DK stage ?
Why he hates Donkey Kong series so much ? Returning 75m, destroying one of my most loved Wii U stages this way.
Thanks BestTeaMaker for the info, anyway.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The problem with Jungle Hijinks is that there is a transformation that forces stage-switching. If you doing land in a barrel when the land gives way, you will immediately die.

IIRC from videos, this is signaled in advance by a bunch of arrows pointing down and the ground shaking. GIven how fast the barrels move you around it should be easy to just double back unless you fall victim to the exploding thing. (And it wouldn't surprise me if the ones designed to catch you ignore that mechanic entirely.)

 

[Piford]

For Jungle Hijinx, I think its innocent until proven guilty. It's definitely one that needs to have tons of testing to make sure it can't be exploited. For the falling platform though, you are given ample warning and it falls kinda slow iirc.

 

[Terotrous]

I was going to give my impressions on new stages but I don't have anything new to say about most of them so I decided against it. I mostly agree with AA's list of likely legal stages, though I'd put Mario Circuit on there too, in fact I think it's even more likely to be legal than, say, Halberd. The only way I could see that some stages might get banned is simply because we have so many good stages that we don't need to put up with them anymore. For example, Castle Siege. Its second form is definitely kind of lame. Tolerable, sure, but now that we have stages like Delfino and Mario Circuit, we might be able to do without it. Time will tell.


However, there is one thing I want to bring up about Duck Hunt, and that's the tree on the left. As a platform, it is super high, every character needs to use their double jump to get up there, and you likely cannot hit the top platform out of a double jump. This is a bit dangerous from a camping perspective as you have to commit fairly heavily to chase someone up the tree and may heavily skew some matchups. Certainly, any Little Mac player should ban this stage every time. I think most heavies also wouldn't enjoy this stage very much.

 

[SanicJan]

I was going to give my impressions on new stages but I don't have anything new to say about most of them so I decided against it. I mostly agree with AA's list of likely legal stages, though I'd put Mario Circuit on there too, in fact I think it's even more likely to be legal than, say, Halberd. The only way I could see that some stages might get banned is simply because we have so many good stages that we don't need to put up with them anymore. For example, Castle Siege. Its second form is definitely kind of lame. Tolerable, sure, but now that we have stages like Delphino and Mario Circuit, we might be able to do without it. Time will tell.


However, there is one thing I want to bring up about Duck Hunt, and that's the tree on the left. As a platform, it is super high, every character needs to use their double jump to get up there, and you likely cannot hit the top platform out of a double jump. This is a bit dangerous from a camping perspective as you have to commit fairly heavily to chase someone up the tree and may heavily skew some matchups. Certainly, any Little Mac player should ban this stage every time. I think most heavies also wouldn't enjoy this stage very much.

Bowser is likely the only heavyweight who can reach that tree platform easily without a double jump because of how big he is.

 

[Terotrous]

Bowser is likely the only heavyweight who can reach that tree platform easily without a double jump because of how big he is.

Good point. Might actually be decent for him then.

 

[Piford]

I was going to give my impressions on new stages but I don't have anything new to say about most of them so I decided against it. I mostly agree with AA's list of likely legal stages, though I'd put Mario Circuit on there too, in fact I think it's even more likely to be legal than, say, Halberd. The only way I could see that some stages might get banned is simply because we have so many good stages that we don't need to put up with them anymore. For example, Castle Siege. Its second form is definitely kind of lame. Tolerable, sure, but now that we have stages like Delfino and Mario Circuit, we might be able to do without it. Time will tell.


However, there is one thing I want to bring up about Duck Hunt, and that's the tree on the left. As a platform, it is super high, every character needs to use their double jump to get up there, and you likely cannot hit the top platform out of a double jump. This is a bit dangerous from a camping perspective as you have to commit fairly heavily to chase someone up the tree and may heavily skew some matchups. Certainly, any Little Mac player should ban this stage every time. I think most heavies also wouldn't enjoy this stage very much.

I was thinking that too but then I realized you have nothing to gain from being on the top platform. It's almost always more advantageous to be below your opponent. If your playing a little mac and try to camp on the top platform, you could get hit with his Up B and LM will be on a platform, and can just UpSmash you.

 

[Terotrous]

I was thinking that too but then I realized you have nothing to gain from being on the top platform. It's almost always more advantageous to be below your opponent. If your playing a little mac and try to camp on the top platform, you could get hit with his Up B and LM will be on a platform, and can just UpSmash you.

If LM commits to UpB, just jump off the top platform and Bair him off the stage. It's not that fast and has quite a bit of recovery.

Also, there are some good things you could do on the top platform, such as:

- Charge a storable move (Charge Shot, Giant Punch, Thoron, Fruit, etc)
- Duck Hunt can put out his can
- Palutena can refresh Super Speed
- Wii Fit trainer can take a breath

etc.


Also, since the platform is near the ledge, you've got the option of going to the ledge to get back onstage if you have to.

 

[Piford]

If LM commits to UpB, just jump off the top platform and Bair him off the stage. It's not that fast and has quite a bit of recovery.

Also, there are some good things you could do on the top platform, such as:

- Charge a storable move (Charge Shot, Giant Punch, Thoron, Fruit, etc)
- Duck Hunt can put out his can
- Palutena can refresh Super Speed
- Wii Fit trainer can take a breath

etc.


Also, since the platform is near the ledge, you've got the option of going to the ledge to get back onstage if you have to.

That is true, but I don't think most characters will have any huge issue with it. And If your Little Mac you probably aren't going to be good on 90% of stages.

 

[Terotrous]

That is true, but I don't think most characters will have any huge issue with it. And If your Little Mac you probably aren't going to be good on 90% of stages.

Possibly. I think the stage will be legal, but the tree does concern me a little for most of the same reasons that a hole in the middle of the stage is usually concerning. It restricts the options you can use to approach, which can give a lot of advantage in some cases.

 

[Slyphoria]

Possibly. I think the stage will be legal, but the tree does concern me a little for most of the same reasons that a hole in the middle of the stage is usually concerning. It restricts the options you can use to approach, which can give a lot of advantage in some cases.

The tree is nowhere close to a reason to ban it. Maybe it'd just make it a counterpick.

We don't need reasons to ban otherwise great stages yet. That's the type of thing that'd be more obvious in practice than theory.

 

[Piford]

So more Orbital Gate with some differences to what we've seen before. The missile actually does do knockback if your standing still. It's strange that Peach took damage when hit in the center of the missile, because later in the video Luigi does the exact same thing but takes no damage. Also they manage to keep with the first bomb transitions by literally standing still so I don't think that's an actual issue. So i still think its fine since every video we saw of actual fighting none of this came into play.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So more Orbital Gate with some differences to what we've seen before. The missile actually does do knockback if your standing still. It's strange that Peach took damage when hit in the center of the missile, because later in the video Luigi does the exact same thing but takes no damage. Also they manage to keep with the first bomb transitions by literally standing still so I don't think that's an actual issue. So i still think its fine since every video we saw of actual fighting none of this came into play.

It's like I tell you man, it's that shield. The missile is slowly pushing into the shield and Peach just happened to get dragged that way.

When the players are doing absolutely nothing, this stage actually becomes even more predictable to tell what's happening.

I find it funny that by standing on the missile you get knockback, but not damage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's like I tell you man, it's that shield. The missile is slowly pushing into the shield and Peach just happened to get dragged that way.

I agree. If you watch closely Peach takes the damage just before the missile blows up, so it's the shield that did the damage. The fire effect is just from the explosion, which does no damage.

Also I think that video does a good job showing that even though the stage is visually noisy, it's not actually dangerous by itself.

 

[Piford]

It's like I tell you man, it's that shield. The missile is slowly pushing into the shield and Peach just happened to get dragged that way.

Oh I thought she rolled away, well then. Were back to just the missiles and shield being a hazards. And if you can stand still and still move with the stage players shouldn't have issues dealing with the transitions.

 

[Leonyx]

So more Orbital Gate with some differences to what we've seen before. The missile actually does do knockback if your standing still. It's strange that Peach took damage when hit in the center of the missile, because later in the video Luigi does the exact same thing but takes no damage. Also they manage to keep with the first bomb transitions by literally standing still so I don't think that's an actual issue. So i still think its fine since every video we saw of actual fighting none of this came into play.

There's a missile that hits Mario near the end of the video around 3:40. It does 10% like the forcefield, but it's pretty difficult to see.

 

[Piford]

There's a missile that hits Mario near the end of the video around 3:40. It does 10% like the forcefield, but it's pretty difficult to see.

Yeah that's a known hazard. It hardly does any knock back and its extremely easy to avoid. It's also on a timer and appears in the back before making its way to the playable plain.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was going to give my impressions on new stages but I don't have anything new to say about most of them so I decided against it. I mostly agree with AA's list of likely legal stages, though I'd put Mario Circuit on there too, in fact I think it's even more likely to be legal than, say, Halberd. The only way I could see that some stages might get banned is simply because we have so many good stages that we don't need to put up with them anymore. For example, Castle Siege. Its second form is definitely kind of lame. Tolerable, sure, but now that we have stages like Delfino and Mario Circuit, we might be able to do without it. Time will tell.

Mario Circuit was on my list though...

I would caution against the school of thought that says we have some stages we really like so we can ban some we like less. There are three problems. The first is that it's really arbitrary. If one player really likes Castle Siege, do you want to tell that player it is banned because we instead have a stage he hates legal? It's not reasonable or fair. The next issue is that it's over legislating balance. Siege has unique balance implications, and we choose to play a different game without it. I guarantee the tier list is different at least somewhat in the game with it as opposed to without it; we don't want to play that dangerous game. Lastly, a stage is about more than itself. Stage procedure relies on the character of the whole list. If you ban less popular transforming stages, you marginalize the importance of mastering that style of stage. Wii U right now seems to have rough parity between dynamic and static stages. I feel strongly that maintaining that should be a priority. I don't want to see Brawl's situation in which all of the air characters were nerfed by stage bans other than MK who wasn't really an air character...

 

[Terotrous]

Mario Circuit was on my list though...

Oops, it looks like it was Thinkaman's list I was looking at. The lists were mostly similar anyway.


I would caution against the school of thought that says we have some stages we really like so we can ban some we like less. There are three problems. The first is that it's really arbitrary. If one player really likes Castle Siege, do you want to tell that player it is banned because we instead have a stage he hates legal?[/quote]
It's not really arbitrary. Pretty much everyone who supports that stage's argument is "transformations 1 and 3 are good enough to warrant tolerating transformation 2". However, if you have an abundance of stages where all transformations are good, you can be a bit more picky about what we allow. And there's a lot of viable-looking transforming stages now:

Wuhu Island
Isle Delfino
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Port Town Aero Drive?


So it's not like we're suddenly banning them all.