Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[The_Jiggernaut]

Observation: Maybe it's just the characters I play (which is a ton, but still only ~30% of the roster), but I find that in every matchup either Halberd or Kongo Jungle gets banned. (In any context where they are legal.) The more experienced me and my opponent are, the more true this is.

I find that the blast zone difference on these two stages overshadows the matchup significance of any other distinction between stages, and it seems everyone else does too.

Thoughts?

I've noticed the same trend, a disproportionately large amount of stage bans are thrown at Kongo Jungle and Halberd. I notice it a lot against myself (Kongo especially as a Jiggs main) but also on other people's sets.

As for a reason? I think people dislike dying/not killing due to different blastzone sizes. It feels either unfair or like it cheapens the experience. It's true that it's not an interesting stage difference in terms of counter-picking, but more than that, it's seen as an unpleasant one.

I don't think that means we should be banning the stages, it's certainly not a form of degeneracy. However, I have a pretty strong feeling that removing these two outliers in blastzone size would make the game more interesting, overall enjoyable, and a more cohesive experience.

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating to ban these stages, there's not a lot to say it would be good competitively to do so. But I will say this again, including as many competitively viable stages as possible into a Smash Ruleset does NOT necessarily create the best, most enjoyable, or even most competitive game. It's just as arbitrary to decide to include all 13 viable stages as it is to choose any subset of them.

 

[Jaxas]

I've noticed the same trend, a disproportionately large amount of stage bans are thrown at Kongo Jungle and Halberd. I notice it a lot against myself (Kongo especially as a Jiggs main) but also on other people's sets.

As for a reason? I think people dislike dying/not killing due to different blastzone sizes. It feels either unfair or like it cheapens the experience. It's true that it's not an interesting stage difference in terms of counter-picking, but more than that, it's seen as an unpleasant one.

I don't think that means we should be banning the stages, it's certainly not a form of degeneracy. However, I have a pretty strong feeling that removing these two outliers in blastzone size would make the game more interesting, overall enjoyable, and a more cohesive experience.

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating to ban these stages, there's not a lot to say it would be good competitively to do so. But I will say this again, including as many competitively viable stages as possible into a Smash Ruleset does NOT necessarily create the best, most enjoyable, or even most competitive game. It's just as arbitrary to decide to include all 13 viable stages as it is to choose any subset of them.

Just going to chime in and say that both I have found myself using my bans on Kongo Jungle and Halberd (unless I'm planning on CPing ZSS if they take me to Halberd, anyways), and it seems to be really common at my weeklies.

Halberd and Kongo are both banned at the larger tournaments around here though, so I can't speak to that.

 

[webbedspace]

So I promised to link this video awhile back, and we're talking about KJ64 again. Fantastic! New Dream Land, it seems.

https://youtu.be/1-ib_i9gvvo?t=15m17s

I tried looking up the tournament's Twitch stream, but there's no VOD? Ah well.

 

[Pazx]

I tried looking up the tournament's Twitch stream, but there's no VOD? Ah well.

We had internet troubles sadly so there was no stream on the day, but feel free to follow, we'll likely stream properly next time. All recorded tournament matches from AA3 are on the Youtube channel at the moment.

Edit: I just checked and none of the vods are up but I assure you we stream regularly, missing out on this tournament was an unusual occasion.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As much as I'm not really on the fence for Kalos. It's honestly looking like one of the only other stages that could possibly be CP worthy outside of MK8.
Funny enough though I played Kalos yesterday and we got 4 or 5 legendaries in a row, registeel twice + sword killing me cause we both were in the air offstage so had no idea the swords were already spinning due to camera. Does playing pokemon characters make em appear more often or something lol

Don't like Gamer, Mom too intrusive sometimes and even when actively trying to avoid her sliding across the room she still managed to kill me at like 40%

Woolly World should've been much smaller ;;
It's such a comfy stage.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I

I've noticed the same trend, a disproportionately large amount of stage bans are thrown at Kongo Jungle and Halberd. I notice it a lot against myself (Kongo especially as a Jiggs main) but also on other people's sets.

As for a reason? I think people dislike dying/not killing due to different blastzone sizes. It feels either unfair or like it cheapens the experience. It's true that it's not an interesting stage difference in terms of counter-picking, but more than that, it's seen as an unpleasant one.

I don't think that means we should be banning the stages, it's certainly not a form of degeneracy. However, I have a pretty strong feeling that removing these two outliers in blastzone size would make the game more interesting, overall enjoyable, and a more cohesive experience.

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating to ban these stages, there's not a lot to say it would be good competitively to do so. But I will say this again, including as many competitively viable stages as possible into a Smash Ruleset does NOT necessarily create the best, most enjoyable, or even most competitive game. It's just as arbitrary to decide to include all 13 viable stages as it is to choose any subset of them.

I feel pretty much exactly the opposite.

I don't think we should be talking about what stages we decide to include, just about what stages are so disruptive/over centralizing that they cannot be allowed. I am fully of the opinion that the more stages can be legal, the better. It adds depth to the game to learn different stages and by presenting situations that would not otherwise occur, and makes counterpicks mean something.

Getting counterpicked SHOULD be an uphill battle in my eyes; give the player the chance to show what he or she can do in a much more optimal situation for his or her character. A better player will overcome that--or, barring that, come back with his or her own counterpick.

The last thing I want to see is the stagelist reduced to nothing but flat-with-plats.

Kongo and Halbard are the most common bans because they are, at the moment, the most extreme stages based on blastzpnes alone. They rarely see play anyways because most people know this, so I'd honestly love to see more variety in stages so that bans and CPs are made for different reasons based on matchups and not just blastzone size.

 

[Ulevo]

It's not. Tested it myself. Still there.

How did you replicate it.

 

[Ulevo]

So I have come to the conclusion that Wuhu Island should not be legal. This is on the basis that the stage is too large.

I have played on the stage plenty of times now, and while I had the inclination that the stage was too big, posts like this one...

Wuhu's blastzones are actually fairly average, for the most part. The ceiling is extremely mundane, at least during most segments; the blastzones to the left and right of the stage are only large when you factor in its overall length. From my experience, people don't live that much longer there. Sure, it's kind of slow and campy, but is that really a reason to ban a stage? Why?

...prompted me to test it objectively, otherwise I wouldn't have a factual basis to state otherwise. So, I've done some tests.

I performed three kinds of tests. The first test was to test kill % using Mario's uncharged Forward Smash on another Mario at the edge of the stage (Mario in his tipping animation). The kill counted towards results as long as Mario entered the side blastzone, indicated by a horizontal blast animation, not a diagonal one. The second test was using Mewtwo's up throw on a Mario. Mewtwo was chosen thanks to the up throws straight trajectory, and throws were always performed on the base stage, not a platform. The third test performed was to compare the relative length of the various transformations in Wuhu. This was done by using Captain Falcon's up tilt to travel the length of the stage. Each up tilt counts as 1 unit.

For each of these tests, fixed camera was used, with Mario set to control with no DI used.

Before posting the results, here are some relevant bench marks:

Horizontal Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 65%
Battlefield: 72%
Smashville: 64%
Final Destination: 65%

Vertical Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 154%
Battlefield: 141%
Smashville: 133%
Final Destination: 133%

Travel Units:

Big Battlefield: 51 Units (7 Luigi Back Rolls)
Battlefield: 31 Units
Smashville: 28 Units
Final Destination: 34 Units

Big Battlefield was chosen as a bench mark to help illustrate what a large but otherwise legal stage might look like, size wise, while the other three were for comparison against healthy legal stages.

Name|Picture|Notes
Platform 1|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41
Platform 2|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 131 Travel Units: 40
Platform 3|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41
Platform 4|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41

Name|Picture|Notes
Arena|

|Horizontal Kill %: 76 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 38
Bridge|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 135 Travel Units: Too Long
Jet Ski Race|

|Horizontal Kill %: 80 Vertical Kill %: 128 Travel Units: 30
Rocks|

|Horizontal Kill %: 78 R, 70 L Vertical Kill %: 155 Travel Units: 32
Boat|

|Horizontal Kill %: 68 L, 66 R Vertical Kill %: 129 Travel Units: 31*
Beach|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: Too Long
Volcano|

|Horizontal Kill %: 52 Vertical Kill %: 148 Travel Units: 18 Each Side
Fountain|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 142 Travel Units: 27 Each Side
Cliff|

|Horizontal Kill %: 81 Vertical Kill %: 142 Travel Units: 42

So, looking at this, what can we conclude?

All four platform transformations are relatively the same size wise, with the #3 having high platforms and platform #2 having a slightly lower blastzone ceiling. 3/4 of them having the same blastzone height as Battlefield, known for having a relatively high ceiling. While the blastzones at the edge of the platforms is relatively average, the stage platforms are not, boasting 41 units, making it larger than Final Destination, and much larger than Smashville, horizontally. Overall, the relative horizontal size from centre stage to blastzone is likely close to Battlefield. This isn't too bad with the exception of platform #3's open layout, which can make it hard for certain characters to give chase.

Arena is larger than Battlefield, boasting 7 more units of stage space and larger horizontal blastzones. While it shares the same vertical ceiling size, it has no platforms to mitigate this problem for characters that KO vertically.

The Bridge is massive. It's a walk off with tons of horizontal room, and for obvious reasons was not tested for travel units or horizontal kill %. Vertically the ceiling is higher than Final Destination and Smashville. It is not higher than Battlefield, but again, no platforms to supplement the difference.

Jet Ski Race is okay. It's roughly the length of Battlefield, however its horizontal blastzones are deceivingly bigger, killing 8% later than usual. The vertical blastzone is quite low here by comparison. Overall this transformation is okay. Despite the larger sides, the smallness of the main platform makes engaging the opponent easy.

Rocks is very big. It has a higher ceiling than even big Battlefield, and side blastzones almost as large or larger than regular Battlefield depending on which side you're on. This might seem okay with the 31 units of stage space, however this measurement did not account for the water space in the middle, which could not be accurately tested. Overall, it's likely closer to 40+ units. Unnecessarily big transformation.

Boat is fine. Nothing to complain about regarding this transformation.

Beach is stupid. Travel units and horizontal kill %'s not done for obvious reasons.

Volcano boasts high blastzones, killing roughly 7% later than on Battlefield, again with no platforms to supplement the issue. Horizontal kill %'s were low at 52%, but this was done at the bottom platforms, not on the main stage. To add to this, the total ground space covers 34 units total, and like Rocks, does not account for the space in the middle, likely pushing the overall space to 40+ units of room between ledges.

With 27 units of space on either side of the water spout, Fountain has almost 60 units of horizontal stage space. You'd think the ceiling blastzone would be low to compensate, but no. Once again it is equal to Battlefield with no platforms to compensate.

Cliff has 42 units of room before going off screen, making this still a decent bit larger than the three legal stages. The kill zone to the right is much larger, requiring over 80% to land a kill. And once again we have the Battlefield-esque ceiling heights with no platforms.

Basically, the only reasonable parts about Wuhu Island regarding size are platform #1, #2, #4, Boat, and maybe Jet Ski Race. The other 8 transformations are too large given their stage space, layout, ceiling height, and side blastzones. While I would say this stage hurts characters that kill vertically more than horizontally, it isn't nice either way. Most transformations are have heigher ceilings than Battlefield with no platforms, while the relative stage space in units makes landing killing blows mid-stage very unreasonable. Couple this with the fact that 4 out of the 13 transformations have walk offs, and many are susceptible to character match up abuse (i.e. Sonic versus Ganondorf), and this stage has no business being legal in my mind from the sheer size it boasts.

I do think it is an excellent doubles stage.

 

[Piford]

Big blast zones aren't a reason to ban a stage because they aren't unfair. Nothing about bigger blastzones will cause the worst player to win (on the contrary I have actually found that the better player wins often on the stages with bigger blatszones). Some stage has to have the biggest blastzone, and if it's not KJ64 it's Wuhu Island, and if it's not Wuhu it's Battlefield, and if it's not Battlefield it's Duck Hunt, ect. Other things like the temporary walk-offs aren't bad for well established reasons by now, and similar ideology applies to the aspects that are susceptible to "character abuse" (not exactly sure what you mean, but I assume it means things like camping during a transformation). Each transformation only last like a couple of seconds, and they are designed with the next platform layout in mind to prevent camping. The stage transforms in a way that makes camping easy to punish. The only transformation I've ever seen have issues is the fountain, and even then that's not something that always happens. I could imagine the volcano might have similar issues, but I've never seen it. Also, what's your problem with platform layout #3; what makes it unreasonable? The entire time your complaining that the blatszones are similar to battlefields but lacking platforms, and then the one transformation that has a fairly high platform you say is unacceptable. Another note is that the blastzones for platform layout #2 are the same, just the center of the stage is higher up.

 

[Jaxas]

So I have come to the conclusion that Wuhu Island should not be legal. This is on the basis that the stage is too large.

I have played on the stage plenty of times now, and while I had the inclination that the stage was too big, posts like this one...



...prompted me to test it objectively, otherwise I wouldn't have a factual basis to state otherwise. So, I've done some tests.

I performed three kinds of tests. The first test was to test kill % using Mario's uncharged Forward Smash on another Mario at the edge of the stage (Mario in his tipping animation). The kill counted towards results as long as Mario entered the side blastzone, indicated by a horizontal blast animation, not a diagonal one. The second test was using Mewtwo's up throw on a Mario. Mewtwo was chosen thanks to the up throws straight trajectory, and throws were always performed on the base stage, not a platform. The third test performed was to compare the relative length of the various transformations in Wuhu. This was done by using Captain Falcon's up tilt to travel the length of the stage. Each up tilt counts as 1 unit.

For each of these tests, fixed camera was used, with Mario set to control with no DI used.

Before posting the results, here are some relevant bench marks:

Horizontal Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 65%
Battlefield: 72%
Smashville: 64%
Final Destination: 65%

Vertical Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 154%
Battlefield: 141%
Smashville: 133%
Final Destination: 133%

Travel Units:

Big Battlefield: 51 Units (7 Luigi Back Rolls)
Battlefield: 31 Units
Smashville: 28 Units
Final Destination: 34 Units

Big Battlefield was chosen as a bench mark to help illustrate what a large but otherwise legal stage might look like, size wise, while the other three were for comparison against healthy legal stages.



So, looking at this, what can we conclude?

All four platform transformations are relatively the same size wise, with the #3 having high platforms and platform #2 having a slightly lower blastzone ceiling. 3/4 of them having the same blastzone height as Battlefield, known for having a relatively high ceiling. While the blastzones at the edge of the platforms is relatively average, the stage platforms are not, boasting 41 units, making it larger than Final Destination, and much larger than Smashville, horizontally. Overall, the relative horizontal size from centre stage to blastzone is likely close to Battlefield. This isn't too bad with the exception of platform #3's open layout, which can make it hard for certain characters to give chase.

Arena is larger than Battlefield, boasting 7 more units of stage space and larger horizontal blastzones. While it shares the same vertical ceiling size, it has no platforms to mitigate this problem for characters that KO vertically.

The Bridge is massive. It's a walk off with tons of horizontal room, and for obvious reasons was not tested for travel units or horizontal kill %. Vertically the ceiling is higher than Final Destination and Smashville. It is not higher than Battlefield, but again, no platforms to supplement the difference.

Jet Ski Race is okay. It's roughly the length of Battlefield, however its horizontal blastzones are deceivingly bigger, killing 8% later than usual. The vertical blastzone is quite low here by comparison. Overall this transformation is okay. Despite the larger sides, the smallness of the main platform makes engaging the opponent easy.

Rocks is very big. It has a higher ceiling than even big Battlefield, and side blastzones almost as large or larger than regular Battlefield depending on which side you're on. This might seem okay with the 31 units of stage space, however this measurement did not account for the water space in the middle, which could not be accurately tested. Overall, it's likely closer to 40+ units. Unnecessarily big transformation.

Boat is fine. Nothing to complain about regarding this transformation.

Beach is stupid. Travel units and horizontal kill %'s not done for obvious reasons.

Volcano boasts high blastzones, killing roughly 7% later than on Battlefield, again with no platforms to supplement the issue. Horizontal kill %'s were low at 52%, but this was done at the bottom platforms, not on the main stage. To add to this, the total ground space covers 34 units total, and like Rocks, does not account for the space in the middle, likely pushing the overall space to 40+ units of room between ledges.

With 27 units of space on either side of the water spout, Fountain has almost 60 units of horizontal stage space. You'd think the ceiling blastzone would be low to compensate, but no. Once again it is equal to Battlefield with no platforms to compensate.

Cliff has 42 units of room before going off screen, making this still a decent bit larger than the three legal stages. The kill zone to the right is much larger, requiring over 80% to land a kill. And once again we have the Battlefield-esque ceiling heights with no platforms.

Basically, the only reasonable parts about Wuhu Island regarding size are platform #1, #2, #4, Boat, and maybe Jet Ski Race. The other 8 transformations are too large given their stage space, layout, ceiling height, and side blastzones. While I would say this stage hurts characters that kill vertically more than horizontally, it isn't nice either way. Most transformations are have heigher ceilings than Battlefield with no platforms, while the relative stage space in units makes landing killing blows mid-stage very unreasonable. Couple this with the fact that 4 out of the 13 transformations have walk offs, and many are susceptible to character match up abuse (i.e. Sonic versus Ganondorf), and this stage has no business being legal in my mind from the sheer size it boasts.

I do think it is an excellent doubles stage.

I'm not sure I see how this is a reason for banning the stage; Kongo Jungle is legal at most places and it has some of the largest blast-zones in the game.

Having a larger stage to fight on, even with (temporarily) above-average blast zones, is just another attribute like Halberd's low ceiling, FD not having platforms, etc. It's just part of how the stage works, and I don't see it as being so intrusive that it's a problem; I don't see it being intrusive at all, honestly.

(Also, Battlefield isn't known for having a high ceiling; it's average height)

 

[Ulevo]

I'm not sure I see how this is a reason for banning the stage; Kongo Jungle is legal at most places and it has some of the largest blast-zones in the game.

Having a larger stage to fight on, even with (temporarily) above-average blast zones, is just another attribute like Halberd's low ceiling, FD not having platforms, etc. It's just part of how the stage works, and I don't see it as being so intrusive that it's a problem; I don't see it being intrusive at all, honestly.

(Also, Battlefield isn't known for having a high ceiling; it's average height)

Kongo Jungle is only 28 units across from ledge to ledge. Mario dies at 74% here on the side, which is only 3% more than Battlefield. What you're not recognizing is that it's not the blastzones by themselves that are a problem, but the size of the stage in tandem with the blastzone sizes. Not only are several of the horizontal blast zones in Wuhu larger than Kongo Jungles, but so are the stage distances, and by a far margin. Vertically, Mario will die at 165% to Mewtwo's up throw, however Mario will die to that same up throw at 122% on the side platforms. Most transformations with high ceilings on Wuhu have no platforms at all, and that's the primary problem. If there were platforms to allow for earlier kills on most of the transformations, or if you could reasonably kill off the sides without having to resort to a walk off, it wouldn't be such an issue.

Also, you're wrong about Battlefield's height being average too. I'd also like to note that many tournaments ban Kongo Jungle.

Stage | Platform | Height
Omega | Base | 62 ft
Battlefield | Base | 65 ft
Final Destination | Base | 62 ft
Delfino Plaza | Base | 62 ft
Kongo Jungle | Base | 78 ft - 82 ft
Skyloft | Base | 65 ft
Halberd | Base | 52 ft - 55 ft
Lylat Cruise | Base | 62 ft
Castle Siege | Base | 59 ft - 62 ft
Town and City | Base | 59 ft
Smashville | Base | 62 ft
Duck Hunt | Base | 62 ft

Big blast zones aren't a reason to ban a stage because they aren't unfair. Nothing about bigger blastzones will cause the worst player to win (on the contrary I have actually found that the better player wins often on the stages with bigger blatszones). Some stage has to have the biggest blastzone, and if it's not KJ64 it's Wuhu Island, and if it's not Wuhu it's Battlefield, and if it's not Battlefield it's Duck Hunt, ect. Other things like the temporary walk-offs aren't bad for well established reasons by now, and similar ideology applies to the aspects that are susceptible to "character abuse" (not exactly sure what you mean, but I assume it means things like camping during a transformation). Each transformation only last like a couple of seconds, and they are designed with the next platform layout in mind to prevent camping. The stage transforms in a way that makes camping easy to punish. The only transformation I've ever seen have issues is the fountain, and even then that's not something that always happens. I could imagine the volcano might have similar issues, but I've never seen it. Also, what's your problem with platform layout #3; what makes it unreasonable? The entire time your complaining that the blatszones are similar to battlefields but lacking platforms, and then the one transformation that has a fairly high platform you say is unacceptable. Another note is that the blastzones for platform layout #2 are the same, just the center of the stage is higher up.

Another person that fails to see the entire picture in lieu of the information I provided. It's not about only the blastzones. It's about the relative size of the stage plus the blastzones. And stage size is a problem in competitive play. It's less ideal for tournaments given time restraints, and it's very unfair in specific match ups with characters that either have high speed and mobility, strong camping game, or both versus a character with low mobility. While there are large stages like Battlefield, there is such a thing as too big. If there wasn't, we would have legalized Big Battlefield by now. The issue with platform #3 is that it promotes the same problem I just described with match up problems. Given its height and position, it's very similar to the two platforms on the right side of Temple. It's not a serious issue by itself, it's just one more thing that goes against when considering whether or not it deserves to be legal.

If you can't rationally think about this though, I'd gladly money match you as Sonic vs Ganondorf on Wuhu and see who has the better time.

 

[Ulevo]

Edit: Double Post.

 

[Jaxas]

Kongo Jungle is only 28 units across from ledge to ledge. Mario dies at 74% here on the side, which is only 3% more than Battlefield. What you're not recognizing is that it's not the blastzones by themselves that are a problem, but the size of the stage in tandem with the blastzone sizes. Not only are several of the horizontal blast zones in Wuhu larger than Kongo Jungles, but so are the stage distances, and by a far margin. Vertically, Mario will die at 165% to Mewtwo's up throw, however Mario will die to that same up throw at 122% on the side platforms. Most transformations with high ceilings on Wuhu have no platforms at all, and that's the primary problem. If there were platforms to allow for earlier kills on most of the transformations, or if you could reasonably kill off the sides without having to resort to a walk off, it wouldn't be such an issue.

If you can't rationally think about this though, I'd gladly money match you as Sonic vs Ganondorf on Wuhu and see who has the better time.

I'm still not seeing why this is a bannable offense. Sonic could outrun Ganon on other stages as well; that's just kind of how that matchup goes. Certain stages are small and let Ganon trap Sonic, while others are large and make it harder to catch him.
If I were playing Ganon I would strike/ban Wuhu (or switch characters) anyways. some characters have bad stages. This is just fact; do we have Duck Hunt banned because Little Mac (ever the low-hanging fruit...) is bad there?

Also, you're wrong about Battlefield's height being average too. I'd also like to note that many tournaments ban Kongo Jungle.

Stage | Platform | Height
Omega | Base | 62 ft
Battlefield | Base | 65 ft
Final Destination | Base | 62 ft
Delfino Plaza | Base | 62 ft
Kongo Jungle | Base | 78 ft - 82 ft
Skyloft | Base | 65 ft
Halberd | Base | 52 ft - 55 ft
Lylat Cruise | Base | 62 ft
Castle Siege | Base | 59 ft - 62 ft
Town and City | Base | 59 ft
Smashville | Base | 62 ft
Duck Hunt | Base | 62 ft

Alright, I'll have to give you that one; 3 feet isn't exactly a lot though, and it's pretty solidly in with the rest of the stages that aren't Halberd or Kongo.
And... wow, that's depressing; where has it shown to be broken again? Or is it just more follow-the-leader from Apex?


Oh, and Big Battlefield isn't banned because it's "too big", it's because it's both huge and has the pyramid layout, allowing one player to circle-camp.
Or at least that's what I've heard; I've never seen it happen in match, but I've also never seen it used in a real tournament match.

EDIT:
I will say thank you, however, for coming in here and debating with actual hard data; it's a nice change from both sides.
I'll be interested to see how this plays out, and I hope it won't devolve into a 'who shouts louder' match...

 

[Piford]

Kongo Jungle is only 28 units across from ledge to ledge. Mario dies at 74% here on the side, which is only 3% more than Battlefield. What you're not recognizing is that it's not the blastzones by themselves that are a problem, but the size of the stage in tandem with the blastzone sizes. Not only are several of the horizontal blast zones in Wuhu larger than Kongo Jungles, but so are the stage distances, and by a far margin. Vertically, Mario will die at 165% to Mewtwo's up throw, however Mario will die to that same up throw at 122% on the side platforms. Most transformations with high ceilings on Wuhu have no platforms at all, and that's the primary problem. If there were platforms to allow for earlier kills on most of the transformations, or if you could reasonably kill off the sides without having to resort to a walk off, it wouldn't be such an issue.

Also, you're wrong about Battlefield's height being average too. I'd also like to note that many tournaments ban Kongo Jungle.

Stage | Platform | Height
Omega | Base | 62 ft
Battlefield | Base | 65 ft
Final Destination | Base | 62 ft
Delfino Plaza | Base | 62 ft
Kongo Jungle | Base | 78 ft - 82 ft
Skyloft | Base | 65 ft
Halberd | Base | 52 ft - 55 ft
Lylat Cruise | Base | 62 ft
Castle Siege | Base | 59 ft - 62 ft
Town and City | Base | 59 ft
Smashville | Base | 62 ft
Duck Hunt | Base | 62 ft

Another person that fails to see the entire picture in lieu of the information I provided. It's not about only the blastzones. It's about the relative size of the stage plus the blastzones. And stage size is a problem in competitive play. It's less ideal for tournaments given time restraints, and it's very unfair in specific match ups with characters that either have high speed and mobility, strong camping game, or both versus a character with low mobility. While there are large stages like Battlefield, there is such a thing as too big. If there wasn't, we would have legalized Big Battlefield by now. The issue with platform #3 is that it promotes the same problem I just described with match up problems. Given its height and position, it's very similar to the two platforms on the right side of Temple. It's not a serious issue by itself, it's just one more thing that goes against when considering whether or not it deserves to be legal.

If you can't rationally think about this though, I'd gladly money match you as Sonic vs Ganondorf on Wuhu and see who has the better time.

You said it's hard for certain characters to give chase, which doesn't really mean anything. If your talking about having better runaway potential, the two platforms don't really promote run away because if you run up them you are now stuck above your opponent which is a terrible position to be in. There's a huge difference between Wuhu Island and Big Battlefield where big battlefield is much bigger and does have circle camping problems, which Wuhu Island doesn't have. The two platforms on the right side of temple also aren't a problem at all, it's the fact that it's a huge cave of life thats easily circle campable. Wuhu Island is about the same size as Duck Hunt in the floating platform (but slanted which makes helps alleviate the size) and the landings are about the same size as Delfino. We haven't had issue with those stages or Wuhu Island and banning them based off theory that there might be issues isn't a good way of handling bans. We should keep as many things legal as possible until they actually start causing legitimate issues, and what we've seen from places that have Wuhu Island legal is that there really aren't any ban worthy issues.

Also, Ganondorf vs Sonic is a matchup with issues on nearly every stage with sonic being able to run around and avoid ganondorf. We wouldn't ban a stage because of persistent issues on all stages, just like we don't ban Battlefield because Jigglypuff and most other characters have an easy time stalling Little Mac out because of the high platform.

Actually, I probably rather MM you to Sonic vs Ganondorf on Wuhu Island than Final Destination because the stage transforming would probably allow me to help stop run away if I used it correctly. But I don't have a way of giving you money, I suck at ganondorf, I suck at the game in general, and again the Sonic vs Ganondorf matchup sucks regardless of stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

stuff

My response here. As for your objections about Sonic and Ganondorf, yeah, congrats, you found a bad matchup. A matchup which sucks no matter what stage it is played on, and which Wuhu does not make significantly worse. In fact, I'd much sooner fight a sonic as Ganon on Wuhu than on FD - on Wuhu, I can still kill reasonably early because, well, I'm ganon, and my weight ain't doing Sonic any favors either.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm still not seeing why this is a bannable offense. Sonic could outrun Ganon on other stages as well; that's just kind of how that matchup goes. Certain stages are small and let Ganon trap Sonic, while others are large and make it harder to catch him.
If I were playing Ganon I would strike/ban Wuhu (or switch characters) anyways. some characters have bad stages. This is just fact; do we have Duck Hunt banned because Little Mac (ever the low-hanging fruit...) is bad there?

Nearly all legal stages allow for characters like Ganondorf to trap characters like Sonic once they reach the edge of the stage. Wuhu has extremely long stretches of space when the main platform transformations are not in play, four blastzones that can be camped, and really large blastzones relative to the stages size so that in the event you DO catch him, you're not guaranteed a stock even at higher %.

We don't ban Duck Hunt because outside of royally screwing over a single character, it isn't a problem. Most other characters can handle it even if it is a disadvantage, which is what usually constitutes a counterpick.

Alright, I'll have to give you that one; 3 feet isn't exactly a lot though, and it's pretty solidly in with the rest of the stages that aren't Halberd or Kongo.
And... wow, that's depressing; where has it shown to be broken again? Or is it just more follow-the-leader from Apex?

To put some perspective, that 3 feet translates in to about 8% more survivability. It might not seem like a lot, but it puts a lot of added stress on certain match ups.

Oh, and Big Battlefield isn't banned because it's "too big", it's because it's both huge and has the pyramid layout, allowing one player to circle-camp.
Or at least that's what I've heard; I've never seen it happen in match, but I've also never seen it used in a real tournament match.

At the end of the day what that translates in to is "I can't kill my opponent." If Bridge of Eldin was the same relative size as it is now, but had ledges at the end instead of walk offs and no exploding transformation in the middle, do you really believe the stage would be permitted? What limits characters with high mobility or strong projectile potential from running the clock is the limitations the stage invokes. There are next to none on stages like Bridge of Eldin and Big Battlefield, even if they are for different reasons. I'm arguing that coupled with how difficult it is to kill on Wuhu, these limitations are not present enough to warrant allowing this stage to be legal.

EDIT:
I will say thank you, however, for coming in here and debating with actual hard data; it's a nice change from both sides.
I'll be interested to see how this plays out, and I hope it won't devolve into a 'who shouts louder' match...

I'm fine if people disagree, but I want people to recognize what Wuhu does and does not offer. I gave the stage a fair chance in my personal playtime and after experiencing and testing it I do not think it's suitable. Hopefully this helps others come to their own conclusions.

@ Piford , same thing.

 

[Piford]

Ganondorf can't trap sonic at the ledge if Sonic plays well because of Up-B. Again I rather play Sonic on Wuhu because if he goes past where the ledge would normally be on a transformation, at least I can wait to where the edge would be to put sonic in an edgeguard situation.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

To me all this does is make Wuhu seem like a good counterpick. The idea that it's passed some sort of "too big" line seems entirely arbitrary to me. There are even special things that you can do with Wuhu that happen on no other legal stage (Fountain walls, stages with dropoffs in the middle) that could change how the game is played but as it is the things being mentioned are just the same as any other stage but with a bigger number attached.

And as others have said, the problem with Big Battlefield isn't that it's so big and that Sonic poops on Ganon there, but that Sonic doesn't even have to engage Ganon at all, which is entirely untrue for Wuhu.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At the end of the day what that translates in to is "I can't kill my opponent."

No, it translates to "I can't hit my opponent", which is a very different issue entirely. Look, is Metal Brawl competitively viable? I mean, sure, it's a little bit broken, but on an abstract level? Sure. It takes longer to kill, but the mode can be played competitively. Is Temple Only competitively viable in Melee? No. Because the winning competitive strategy is trivial to learn and execute. It's a solved game, akin to Tic-Tac-Toe - pick Fox, land one laser, and you just win. There is no competitive merit there.
That's the difference between "I can't hit my opponent" and "I can't kill my opponent". Of course, this is just me shoving my design philosophy e-peen in your face. None of it actually matters or is relevant.

If Bridge of Eldin was the same relative size as it is now, but had ledges at the end instead of walk offs and no exploding transformation in the middle, do you really believe the stage would be permitted? What limits characters with high mobility or strong projectile potential from running the clock is the limitations the stage invokes. There are next to none on stages like Bridge of Eldin and Big Battlefield, even if they are for different reasons. I'm arguing that coupled with how difficult it is to kill on Wuhu, these limitations are not present enough to warrant allowing this stage to be legal.

And your arguments are simply wrong. In practice, this is not the case. I should know, I use the stage as a counterpick a lot, explicitly to run away (it's one of my two "I really don't want to deal with your **** in the neutral game" stages as Pikachu, the other being Lylat, and actually even dumber), as a character who is phenomenally good at running away. It doesn't work as well as you might think. It's not that hard to catch people on Wuhu, nor is it that hard to kill them. Actual, practical tournament results just don't bear out your theorycraft. That's the point where you abandon the theorycraft.

 

[Ulevo]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ , I'm not really inclined to believe much of what you say to be honest. Never really have. You're talking tournament results with me when I have yet to see any reputable players play this stage. Based on my previous experience debating with you, your anecdotal evidence means squat. Even if your experience with the stage had any value, so what? Suddenly its your word against mine, and that is not getting us anywhere. I at least made the attempt to provide evidence for my claims. While admittedly it does not cover all the basis, and tournament results would be needed to solidify my points, what exactly are you providing? You're nagging me about theory craft, but honestly you're just telling me "you're wrong" like usual without much substance.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ , I'm not really inclined to believe much of what you say to be honest. Never really have. You're talking tournament results with me when I have yet to see any reputable players play this stage.

I used the stage as a counterpick in my sets against Twomix (a top German player) and Cyanide (a NJ player who you may or may not know). It didn't pan out in either case. I'd show you the videos but Smash_Circle has purged its twitch account.

Whether you believe me or not, I don't care. I host biweekly tournaments in the Munich area. We have 13 legal stages, Wuhu is among them. It has never ever proven itself to be a problem in any matchup. Say what you will about anecdotal evidence (or, in this case, tournament results from an admittedly kinda weak region), it trumps theorycraft any day of the week, because theorycraft is worthless. It's a starting point. A "hey, this might work" kinda thing. It has absolutely no place determining our rules until it actually plays itself out. This kind of baseless theorycraft should never be used to ban something.

You're nagging me about theory craft, but honestly you're just telling me "you're wrong" like usual without much substance.

Yes, I'm telling you you're wrong, because the only thing that can show whether theorycraft has any basis in reality is tournament results. So far, the tournament results from the Munich area indicate strongly that, uh, you're wrong. All of my personal experience and all the experience of those at my tournaments can tell you that it just doesn't work like that. The runaway on this stage does not work the way you theorize.

 

[Piford]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ , I'm not really inclined to believe much of what you say to be honest. Never really have. You're talking tournament results with me when I have yet to see any reputable players play this stage. Based on my previous experience debating with you, your anecdotal evidence means squat. Even if your experience with the stage had any value, so what? Suddenly its your word against mine, and that is not getting us anywhere. I at least made the attempt to provide evidence for my claims. While admittedly it does not cover all the basis, and tournament results would be needed to solidify my points, what exactly are you providing? You're nagging me about theory craft, but honestly you're just telling me "you're wrong" like usual without much substance.

I watch a weakly tournament that has it legal that Keitaro goes to, and I've seen him play False and other good players there including a good Sonic (which was good enough to beat him in a set). I haven't seen an issue of him or anybody abusing the stage. In fact, Keitaro actually beat Sonic (as Diddy) on Wuhu Island multiple times I believe. He also has beaten him on Windy Hill Zone as well, which is definitely better for Sonic than Wuhu Island. Actually, I don't think Keitaro has ever beaten him on FD though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We have Wuhu Island legal here and two Sonic mains who counterpick it all the time. Wuhu Island is definitely a really good Sonic stage, but it's not brokenly good for him and honestly is pretty comparable as an overall counterpick for him to Castle Siege. The stage's shape just limits how much he can run, and while running space is handy for Sonic, if you were depending on the small size of the stage to corner Sonic you were probably playing the match-up wrong in the first place. No other character is vaguely close to as good as Sonic at utilizing the stage size either; I can't think of a specific match-up where it's really going to be a big problem. Wuhu Island tends to have slower matches than other stages, but we're talking about match pacing that's about 20% slower than other stages not like half speed or anything. Even in our 5 minute time limits here, matches on Wuhu Island end within the time regularly (they mostly time out when I play the stronger of the Sonics since Sonic vs Rosalina is a very slow match-up to start and we're both cautious players). I can speak from experience that Wuhu Island's size is not a particular problem, and honestly, it's a really popular stage here among the players. I actually think among players who play a lot of games on all of the transforming stages that Wuhu Island tends to be the most popular among them; it is truly insane to me to ban this stage.

As per Halberd and Kongo always being banned, that's not really my experience. Granted I seldom ban either myself because I don't think the blast zone sizes are a huge deal for Rosalina (I think she's pretty good on both stages, Halberd's small ceiling helps her while Kongo's shape is awesome enough to make up for the size), but I see Kongo in particular played on a lot by various players. Lux bans Halberd from KSM events (but allowed Windy Hill Zone...) for reasons I really don't understand, but at some other events I attend Halberd is legal and I've played a few tournament games on it. Honestly with most characters when it comes to banning in this game I'd first want to ban either FD or BF (most characters strongly prefer one over the other) and then might want to ban Castle Siege depending on the match-up and only after those thoughts would I think about banning Halberd or Kongo. There are different schools of thought, and I don't really think that a stage being commonly banned would really warrant removing it from the ruleset. Some stage will always be the most commonly banned; this is a reduction strategy that eventually leads to banning every stage. Even if that weren't the case, remember that your biases as a player greatly affect which stages you play on; look around the room for matches that don't involve you, and you'll probably see every stage on the stage list being played by someone at some point in the event.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So that's the personal experience of two TOs vs theorycraft.

Any chance of abandoning that theorycraft, @ Ulevo ? Or is AA also lying about his tournaments?

 

[DavemanCozy]

If you run 13 stages, do you give 3 or 4 bans when counterpicking?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you run 13 stages, do you give 3 or 4 bans when counterpicking?

We have 2 bans.

 

[Ulevo]

So that's the personal experience of two TOs vs theorycraft.

Any chance of abandoning that theorycraft, @ Ulevo ? Or is AA also lying about his tournaments?

Two? If anything, now we have at least one person with credibility. I never cared about your experience.

 

[DavemanCozy]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ how did you determine that 2 bans would be sufficient?

I guess I should ask this first: what are the purpose of stage bans? Should the number increase the larger the stage list, or stay the same?

@ ParanoidDrone told me a couple posts ago in this same thread that 3 bans would be sufficient with a 13 stage list. He gave me the following: 4x+1= number of stages and x= number of bans when cping.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ how did you determine that 2 bans would be sufficient?

I guess I should ask this first: what are the purpose of stage bans? Should the number increase the larger the stage list, or stay the same?

@ ParanoidDrone told me a couple posts ago in this same thread that 3 bans would be sufficient with a 13 stage list. He gave me the following: 4x+1= number of stages and x= number of bans when cping.

Disclaimer: I'm not a TO and that's basically educated guesswork. But it does seem like a good starting point.

 

[DeLux]

We use 4 bans because 2 would be too few for 13 stages and 6 would be too many. Anyone that uses 1,3, or 5 stages bans is an odd savage.

 

[Ulevo]

We use 4 bans because 2 would be too few for 13 stages and 6 would be too many. Anyone that uses 1,3, or 5 stages bans is an odd savage.

To clarify, by 4, you mean 2 for each player?

 

[DeLux]

No I mean 4 for each player.

 

[Ulevo]

No I mean 4 for each player.

That's 8 bans in total. Is that not excessive? That leaves 5 left for 13 legal stage lists.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That's 8 bans in total. Is that not excessive? That leaves 5 left for 13 legal stage lists.

As someone who goes to the tournaments, I'll say this. It takes a while which is kinda tedious, but we do probably have overall the most fair average stages actually used of anywhere in the country with our local rules. If I were king, we'd only have two bans per player and would have Halberd instead of Windy Hill Zone, but the way it is isn't so bad. It's also funny when I ban FD/SV/T&C which I think throws some people for a loop... or probably did at one time but not any more since I do that a lot so it really can't be a surprise.

 

[Pazx]

@ DeLux how does that number of bans interact with DSR? Do you still have 4 bans in a BO5? Are you the silly region (no disrespect) that has bans carry over for the entire set?

 

[DeLux]

That's probably us you're referring to. We do bans 1-2-2-2-1 style after game 1, leaving the set to be played on 5 stages.

I've been debating cutting down to 9 stages with 2 bans for balance reasons / simplicity reasons though for "excessive" arguments. I just don't really think it's worth neutering the game without solid reasons.


Alternatively I've been thinking about increasing to 21 stages so people are prepared for the atrocities, monstrosities, and farce of Halberd, since the community continues to use horrendous stages as common practice. It's just extremely hard to rationalize including such a piss poor stage when there are 13 EXTREMELY legit stages for competitive play, 4 more alright for competitive play, and then after that we have to start talking including jank like Port Town Aero Dive to validate including Halberd via normative criteria.

We can't all be civilized though, so I'll take what I can get. But I forsee logistics issues trying to run 21 stages in striking. 13 is kind of tedious enough.

But I am almost of the opinion that I'd rather quit playing/hosting than validate such a terrible stage on principle

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

That's probably us you're referring to. We do bans 1-2-2-2-1 style after game 1, leaving the set to be played on 5 stages.

I've been debating cutting down to 9 stages with 2 bans for balance reasons / simplicity reasons though for "excessive" arguments. I just don't really think it's worth neutering the game without solid reasons.


Alternatively I've been thinking about increasing to 21 stages so people are prepared for the atrocities, monstrosities, and farce of Halberd, since the community continues to use horrendous stages as common practice. It's just extremely hard to rationalize including such a piss poor stage when there are 13 EXTREMELY legit stages for competitive play, 4 more alright for competitive play, and then after that we have to start talking including jank like Port Town Aero Dive to validate including Halberd via normative criteria.

We can't all be civilized though, so I'll take what I can get. But I forsee logistics issues trying to run 21 stages in striking. 13 is kind of tedious enough.

But I am almost of the opinion that I'd rather quit playing/hosting than validate such a terrible stage on principle

This is insanity... I'm sorry I just.... I don't know what do say. Are you being facetious here? I can't tell what side you're supporting and what side you're condemning.

Do I have to even say it? 21 stages legal is too many. It's stupid to allow stages that no one agrees are appropriate for competitive play in order to... normalize Halberd by comparison? I personally don't like the stage, but be reasonable, not everyone will agree with your taste in stages.

Banning more than half the stages on the list is baffling to me, as well. In Bo5's with Dave's Stupid Rule, the last stage of the set is dictated, assuming no one does a Salty Runback.

 

[DeLux]

They don't have to agree. They also don't have to be right.

And you say that last part like it's a bad thing. It's actually the beauty of the system.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

They don't have to agree. They also don't have to be right.

And you say that last part like it's a bad thing. It's actually the beauty of the system.

Well you're correct about not having to be right...

I disagree that limiting the pool of choices that much is a desirable thing. It's not exactly the player's counterPICK if they can't pick the stage, is it?

 

[DeLux]

They will have at least 3 stages to choose from in a best of 5 on game 5 >_>