ToonSmeef
Smash Rookie
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- Jun 21, 2015
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- TurkeyScrub
Your mom spiraled out of control when I 4 stocked her in bed
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SSBM | Shield Breaker (v1.18) - - May 19, 2018
- Thread starter Aerros11
- Start date
TragicGameplay
Smash Cadet
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- Sep 26, 2015
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- 30
says he wants feedback from a fox main after saying he does not want it and thinks its biased and i think we all know if this fox does not agree with aerros11 aerros11 will say he is wrong
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
close. You basically have to be good with the character in order for me to believe your feedback. This is a standard principle in balancing any video game. DoctorKirby for example told me that Ganondorf was garbage because I removed his spikes. Then I bested him with my Ganon and all was settled.
Sickolas
Smash Apprentice
havent you ever heard the saying you have to be a master chef to know a food tastes like dog ****?
basically the same principle here
At this point is basically you have to agree with him. Really everyone is just getting triggered because he was claiming it was the most balanced version but I stand by my earlier statement that theres different balances for different levels of play and this one suits him so theres not really a need to harass him about it. Just let the topic die.
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CeLL
Smash Lord
Luigi's nair is literally unusable. Not even safe on hit until like 140%. Puff's dair is worse, it's never safe on hit.
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Hes gotten the criticism and chosen to ignore it which is up to him. Somehow though this thread has diverted to using personal attacks.
Xxaz_v
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2015
- Messages
- 58
Who wants to bet that this is an alternate account.
How do you like your own post
How do you play the net of plays without a campewtor to run Dolphin so that you can prove that people shouldn't say things like "if you can't beat him your opinion doesn't matter". I need to prove that OP shouldn't challenge people to prove their point, because when you do that you look like a dog backed into a corner trying to run away from their evil owner magicscrumpy because he will give the dog a bath. In all seriousness next time OP says anything along the lines of "fight me in netplay because your opinion doesn't matter unless you are better than me" I'm taking him to the salty suite.
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TheClamFace
Smash Rookie
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- Oct 13, 2015
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- NNID
- someperson
Xxaz_v
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2015
- Messages
- 58
TheClamFace
You'll get used to it, magicscrumpy really hates gingers that use butter knives for weapons.Oh ****.
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TheClamFace
Smash Rookie
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- Oct 13, 2015
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- NNID
- someperson
Technically Roy's hair is red not orange and gingery.
Oh ****.
Wow. Just go play smash 4 or something. Here's what I gather from your replies
1: You don't want Fox to be op (Ok that's good)
2: You don't want any character in top 8 to be viable (Wtf)
3: You want everything to have no guarantee followups, because clearly the immense difficulty to force that situation and correctly tech chase or di chase is op (go play smash 4 where there's no such thing as real combo's)
4: You want any charachter that has a specific skill set that may give them an edge to have said skill set removed, because variety and skill should not exist in a fighting game)
Yeah, go play smash 4, rename this patch to "Melee for people who only like smash 4" and delete this thread. Thank you for your time.
1: You don't want Fox to be op (Ok that's good)
2: You don't want any character in top 8 to be viable (Wtf)
3: You want everything to have no guarantee followups, because clearly the immense difficulty to force that situation and correctly tech chase or di chase is op (go play smash 4 where there's no such thing as real combo's)
4: You want any charachter that has a specific skill set that may give them an edge to have said skill set removed, because variety and skill should not exist in a fighting game)
Yeah, go play smash 4, rename this patch to "Melee for people who only like smash 4" and delete this thread. Thank you for your time.
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
I'll have to revisit knockback per character if that's the case. It is to be expected with the damage balance.
Hmm "11sorea" --> "Aeros11". He's not even being subtle anymore (and he spelt his name wrong), why does anyone take this guy seriously?
Xxaz_v
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2015
- Messages
- 58
I won the bet. Someone owes me premium. But who?
Doq
Smash Lord
Code:
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[spoiler="Spoiler Title"]spoiler[/spoiler]spoiler
spoiler
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Your constructive feedback is much appreciated..whenever that happens (especially if about your main).
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Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Not that this is popular, but if anyone sees this I'm going to add falco and fox's side-b without free fall code that Achilles made for the public. I've been playing it with friends and it's pretty fun/fair especially considering how balanced I made shines/lasers/falco's dair.
Anyway, the point of this is to ask what people think about other character's with a charged, horizontal side-b becoming similar to fox's and falco's side-b (READ AS: chargeless headbashes for pichu, pikachu, luigi, jigglypuff's rollout ?). I know jiggs and ness need a bit of tweaking, incidentally.
These characters don't fall as fast as the spacies but these horizontal recoveries are not as reliable as a phantasm and could use some fixing (especially if not made too spam-able). I'm just not sure if this removing the charge would effect the characters in question adversely.
-end note-
Anyway, the point of this is to ask what people think about other character's with a charged, horizontal side-b becoming similar to fox's and falco's side-b (READ AS: chargeless headbashes for pichu, pikachu, luigi, jigglypuff's rollout ?). I know jiggs and ness need a bit of tweaking, incidentally.
These characters don't fall as fast as the spacies but these horizontal recoveries are not as reliable as a phantasm and could use some fixing (especially if not made too spam-able). I'm just not sure if this removing the charge would effect the characters in question adversely.
-end note-
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Whoa. So, I haven't looked at this in a long while. Looks like criticism's been smacking hard. So, regardless, here's my feedback. Note, I didn't read the changelog, and am going off of my SDR memory. I played against a Level 1 Bowser and played on Final Destination to test each character. I haven't played any of them before, so just giving my first impressions. The HUD being disabled also makes it hard to judge damage, because they are usually really weak and I can't get a good sense of how strong it really is.
In terms of the mod, I'm not too happy with it. Everyone's movement feels iffy, and it does not feel like an improvement over SD Remix. It was hard to play many of the characters because of the modified physics for most of them. That and there's a lot of holes to where you have it all at right now, in terms of character balance. For example, since Marth is bad, I can play Roy and pretty much play a better Marth. It's almost the same thing. That and a lot of characters have a weird bouncy feeling, notably G&W, because it was noticeably the jumps. They felt too quick. Samus was also among that bouncy feeling too.
I would take off the "most balanced mod" part of the description, because this mod isn't balanced at all. The HUD being disabled is probably the worst thing about this, other than the removal of many character's tools. I can't see this in a tourney anywhere.
I would say the mod was better at the first version even. At least I had a HUD, and at least I knew when kills could be done and how.
And I'm not saying I'm a very great player either. I suck on netplay, so if you want to ignore my criticism just as you have with the rest, fine. But I'd lose a lot of respect if you don't change how you listen to people. It turns the mod bad and makes you look bad. Just please fix at least some of what I said. And seriously, if I haven't stressed it enough, turn on the HUD.
- The HUD being disabled is a terrible idea. In what fighting game is the HUD disabled? You won't know whether or not going neutral is a good idea, and will have to make guesses at whether or not it's a good idea. That, and whenever you launch opponents really far, you don't know where they are, and they don't either! The little circle with them in it doesn't show up, and it just makes it confusing. That and you don't remember how many stocks you have unless you count, and you're probably going to lose track. Matches felt really long and hard to understand without this. Please re-enable it, it's a terrible idea to disable it and it's very difficult to play without it. To go on about it a bit more, in every fighting game you have to base your attacks based on how weak they are, so you know whether or not your hits will do anything. It especially makes training harder because you don't even know how much your moves do without doing some heavy research. And this is not a popular mod with frame data just thrown out there, you really have to look for the damage, knockback, etc.
- My feedback on Doc is that he actually plays about the same as he felt in SDR. Nothing really noticeable if there is anything.
- Mario's recovery is better, his down special seems to travel a bit more horizontally. Nothing too noticeable other than how he feels a bit more like a fastfaller now.
- Luigi feels...awful. His neutral air is so weak now, shoryuken does next to nothing even after a lot of hits, and the only thing I like is his recovery options are better, with side special reaching father, and same with down special. It took me about two minutes to kill Bowser though, which is a HUGE issue. My main dislikes are the neutral air and shoryuken. Shoryuken didn't do ANYTHING, and neutral air did just about the same.
- I like Bowser, mostly. The only thing I don't like is his neutral special, because it literally does nothing now. It's not even decent for edgeguards, and it does bad damage from what I can assume based on before. He feels a lot more quicker though, and I like his quick startups. May be a little unfair though, since his up air is really quick.
- Peach feels, odd to say the least. First things I noticed were her down smash and down air were pretty weak, and I can understand down smash a LOT more than down air in terms of nerfs. Down air though? Really? It's pretty useless now. Her grab range seems to be increased as well, unless it's her normal one still. Feels like it's different. She pretty much plays just about the same though.
- I sort of like Yoshi. He feels just the same, but I'm bothered about his neutral air and down air. His down air is strong, sure, but it feels wrong. He also doesn't feel floaty, which is a big issue for me, more of a DJC fastfaller. Overall, I don't like his feel.
- DK feels good. I noticed his forward air is quicker, but that's all I really found. He feels more or less the same, but forward air is busted.
- Falcon is weird. His jump definitely feels a lot bigger, and it's harder to shorthop now. His knee also feels different, but I can't exactly spot how. It feels like the strong knee is just harder to hit. He feels harder to play than he already was.
- Ganon has that same weird feeling I just talked about. Quick, but feels harder. His down air is quicker. He feels better, but he doesn't feel as strong as he was. Also, neutral special feels too quick, whatever it's called.
- Falco's down tilt is just bad, and back air feels bad too. Also, why does Firefox KO noticeably early? I like illusion, but it's a little broken that it doesn't make you helpless. Down air also feels wrong, because it can't really do anything early%. I guess the base knockback is just really low. I don't like him a lot.
- Fox's up air and up smash take too long to kill, and his down air feels weird. All the hits are really early, and don't do the same as they usually would, and don't even feel like little meteors anymore. His forward air feels a bit stronger, and once again, Firefox is oddly really strong. He feels weaker, but the up smash and up air do very little now, so that bothers me.
- Ness is broken. He falls as slow as Jigglypuff, down special is like a mini shine now, PK fire goes REALLY quick and far, and he feels really quick. Definitely needs nerfed, but he feels good despite this.
- I personally have to skip Ice Climbers, because they mess with my head to play, and I don't understand any of their tech anyways, so I'm gonna skip them.
- Kirby is definitely stronger. The down air is insane, his down tilt is wayyy too good for edgeguarding. Other than that, nothing feels too different. He feels pretty fair.
- Samus is overpowered. She's a fastfaller, and kills really early with just up smash alone. Better than Ness by a ton. Honestly, the best way to nerf her is just make her floaty again. She is WAY too strong as a fastfaller.
- Zelda feels about the same, but with a couple noticeable differences. Her down air is the equivalent of Ness', but stronger, and neutral air feels like Lucas. How odd. Either way, she feels good, but maybe a bit too strong.
- Sheik feels the same as well, but the forward air feels like it has knockback growth rather than base knockback, and her recovery feels like Smash 4's in terms of strength. I don't know, I didn't notice too many differences. Her down throw changed, but if it was to combat tech chasing, it's even better then because you can just dash attack after doing it and that's pretty much the same as tech chasing.
- Link feels weird. I noticed the down tilt quickly, and am a bit bothered by it. I would've just lowered how strong the meteor was, but okay. I only noticed that recovery isn't as strong, which I like, because it was pretty insane before how good it was for edgeguards. Other than that, his down air is insane, which should just be nerfed in my opinion. Even with all of this, he is still amazing at edgeguarding, because recovery just does the same but at higher percentages is where it feels equivalent, down tilt is like Kirby's down tilt, and down air, is just broken.
- Young Link is rough. He is a lot weaker, and kills even later than he used to, which is not good at all. He needs to be stronger. His down air feels slightly better, which is okay, but the only kill move he has now is forward smash. The rest of his moves do nothing. I guess his down air can work for edgeguarding, but personally I just don't use it for that.
- If you did anything to Pichu, I don't realize any changes. Feels the same to me.
- Pikachu's neutral air feels weaker, and I didn't see anything else that changed really.
- Jigglypuff's rest being bad makes her bad as well. If it was to combat how broken she was, look at her forward air and down air now. They're just insane, and forward air killed Bowser like it was the wall of pain, and down air is just stupid on the ground. She still doesn't feel the same, and without her rest she feels crippled. Her back air feels weak as well, but her forward air might as well substitute it.
- Mewtwo feels weaker and stronger. I can't exactly really point out how. He feels the same mostly.
- Mr. G&W feels bouncier, and stronger. That bouncy feeling is really weird to play with, so it should probably just be reverted to his normal physics.
- Marth is bad. The ending lag on some of his attacks really disconnect a lot of combos and leave him open, and down air is pretty much PAL. Also, his forward smash is awful now.
- I didn't notice a lot with Roy. He feels the same. Definitely no reason to play Marth judging how good Roy is.
In terms of the mod, I'm not too happy with it. Everyone's movement feels iffy, and it does not feel like an improvement over SD Remix. It was hard to play many of the characters because of the modified physics for most of them. That and there's a lot of holes to where you have it all at right now, in terms of character balance. For example, since Marth is bad, I can play Roy and pretty much play a better Marth. It's almost the same thing. That and a lot of characters have a weird bouncy feeling, notably G&W, because it was noticeably the jumps. They felt too quick. Samus was also among that bouncy feeling too.
I would take off the "most balanced mod" part of the description, because this mod isn't balanced at all. The HUD being disabled is probably the worst thing about this, other than the removal of many character's tools. I can't see this in a tourney anywhere.
I would say the mod was better at the first version even. At least I had a HUD, and at least I knew when kills could be done and how.
And I'm not saying I'm a very great player either. I suck on netplay, so if you want to ignore my criticism just as you have with the rest, fine. But I'd lose a lot of respect if you don't change how you listen to people. It turns the mod bad and makes you look bad. Just please fix at least some of what I said. And seriously, if I haven't stressed it enough, turn on the HUD.
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
It has been done.
I've changed things according to your general feedback
HUD
- enabled percents only.
Physics/Bounciness
- I haven't changed anything about that so I'm not sure where this is coming from
Weak Attacks
- truly authenticated thanks to https://ddhuet.github.io/KBSimulator/
True Balanced
- It really is meant to be, in the end, the most balanced melee version at least
Some characters still need tweaking of course but it's closer to the finish line.
Thanks for ALLLLL of your feedback ^ ^
'really helped~
I've changed things according to your general feedback
HUD
- enabled percents only.
Physics/Bounciness
- I haven't changed anything about that so I'm not sure where this is coming from
Weak Attacks
- truly authenticated thanks to https://ddhuet.github.io/KBSimulator/
True Balanced
- It really is meant to be, in the end, the most balanced melee version at least
Some characters still need tweaking of course but it's closer to the finish line.
Thanks for ALLLLL of your feedback ^ ^
'really helped~
I appreciate a lot of what you've done, but by HUD re-enabled, I don't have the new version yet so I can't test, but I hope the stocks/time/magnifier glass are also back as well.
I'm unsure what the bounciness is too, but play and G&W and compare it to his vanilla feel. Jump around a lot. It feels very wonky.
Can't say much about weak attacks since I don't have the new build.
Other than that, I'd just like to make a recommendation, it's nothing that buzzes me off too much, but it just makes the actual building process a lot quicker. I'd suggest making xDelta patches instead of the ISO with GCR. If you need help with making versions for all of the Melee versions, I'll help out. I have 1.00-1.02. But yeah, it makes the building process a lot quicker, and it's more simple to understand.
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Before by the way and still:
Blue Platform = 3 stocks left
Red = 2
Black = 1
Though.. the debug menu messes with that still right now.
I only enabled the stocks and percent. You'll know why the magnifier is gone once you master where your character moves off-scree (no offense).
Maybe the delta patches are messing with the physics by the way. So if that is the culprit then I'm not going to be too fond about those delta patches .__.
The weak attacks (I had gotten the "formula" wrong for knock back growth before) are all good now.
I'm still on the fence about Jiggs and ness especially though. As in, ness needs something to help him recover better and Jiggs needs more tools
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xDelta patches can't mess with the physics though. xDelta doesn't have anything that specifically changes those pieces, all it does is try to copy over pieces of data in other files (I'm no programmer, but this is from what I can understand). If it did actually specifically change those parts, then I'd be amazed. I'd expect it to corrupt rather than actually run functionally with messed up physics.
Either way, I'll have to try the new version out sometime. Got school and stuff in the way for right now, but I'll put it on my to-do list for this week. Thanks for fixing up stuff! Let's just hope it's better now.
EDIT: About the HUD, I guess I can be satisfied with everything except magnifier glass. It just seems a bit annoying, because even in SD Remix, that's enabled. And it's also confusing for the person who got launched. You'd basically have to recover with a lot of luck if you got launched far.
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QuantumKiller
Smash Cadet
Why are fox's kill moves so weak for no reason. I can up-b into an opponent and kill them rather than actually comboing/followingup into an upsmash. Most of the time it's on accident when I'm trying to recover. NONE of his aerials have true kill potential until very high percent. The KBG on his moves are absolutely terrible. And as for chaingrabbing, you can still chaingrab combo him with ness, pichu, mewtwo, and some others(same as falco).
Ness is horribly unbalanced, his falling speed is near to non-existant meaning you can try your luck offstage with 5 dairs and still make it back onstage. His fastfall is also ridiculous since it makes it nearly impossible for the opponent to catch you unless they have some sort of read. Fthrow has too much BKB and combined with the fact you can nair/dair 5 times off stage my friend and I found it extremely broken. He has almost no combo game and mainly relies on grabs.
Pichu is basically the new Captain Falcon with jab reset dairs and guaranteed follow ups after his upthrow on most of the cast regardless of DI. Side-b is way to overpowered as it negates projectiles and does way too much damage and KB. There's way too many things with him that make him better than ever choosing Fox or Falco. Fox vs Pichu I would say is like 80-20 in pichu's favor.
Overall the amount of hitstun, knockback, and even damage do not really contribute to any new combos nor does it really show who's better. It seems like most of the vanilla top tiers are now either unusable or unrewarded for skillful play. There seems to be a lot less combos since it feels like the angles were purposely changed to prevent them. Removing combos and in a way also follow ups for most of the characters makes it unbalanced. I think you should take more time reevaluating each character's moves, traits(weight,gravity,etc), combogame(IASA,hitstun,blablabla), and match ups against the other characters to make it better suited for what you want; A skill based game. You might need to restart from the top honestly because it would be harder to morph it into what you want to achieve at the moment. I didn't cover every thing that was wrong but I hope you good luck since it's probably going to be difficult to achieve a completely balanced melee like what SDR has done.
Ness is horribly unbalanced, his falling speed is near to non-existant meaning you can try your luck offstage with 5 dairs and still make it back onstage. His fastfall is also ridiculous since it makes it nearly impossible for the opponent to catch you unless they have some sort of read. Fthrow has too much BKB and combined with the fact you can nair/dair 5 times off stage my friend and I found it extremely broken. He has almost no combo game and mainly relies on grabs.
Pichu is basically the new Captain Falcon with jab reset dairs and guaranteed follow ups after his upthrow on most of the cast regardless of DI. Side-b is way to overpowered as it negates projectiles and does way too much damage and KB. There's way too many things with him that make him better than ever choosing Fox or Falco. Fox vs Pichu I would say is like 80-20 in pichu's favor.
Overall the amount of hitstun, knockback, and even damage do not really contribute to any new combos nor does it really show who's better. It seems like most of the vanilla top tiers are now either unusable or unrewarded for skillful play. There seems to be a lot less combos since it feels like the angles were purposely changed to prevent them. Removing combos and in a way also follow ups for most of the characters makes it unbalanced. I think you should take more time reevaluating each character's moves, traits(weight,gravity,etc), combogame(IASA,hitstun,blablabla), and match ups against the other characters to make it better suited for what you want; A skill based game. You might need to restart from the top honestly because it would be harder to morph it into what you want to achieve at the moment. I didn't cover every thing that was wrong but I hope you good luck since it's probably going to be difficult to achieve a completely balanced melee like what SDR has done.
Aerros11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Oh right, that time is rolling in again.
Well best wishes then.
It just takes some practice to get used to (the magnifier)
There are some things on the back of my mind.
Things like: "Did I overnerf Fox?", "How can I make Ness' recovery better; should I make him floaty?"
FOX
Honestly, I think just changing Fox's shine was enough of a weakening and I over-nerfed him it seems. The thing is, his uair and usmash were one of the most OP attacks in game. They've been boosted to be better than falco, now, but they still will never be as good as vanilla.
NESS
I feared this. Looks like the terminal velocity and fast fall changes on him were a bad idea. I'll revisit his upB then. He's been changed back to normal gravity.
Also, his fThrow was unchanged from SDR. But now that you've told me, I've change it back to vanilla standards.
PICHU
If you're complaining about his broken grabs, then that's because I didn't change his grabs from SDR and didn't even know they were that good. The thing is, SDR didn't change his upThrow at all from Vanilla.
SDR released a tier list and Pichu is pretty high up there. I can see why he's good along with his upSmash. I've changed his upThrow but his sideB takes 18 frames to come out and should reasonably do some high damage for being such an obvious attack. It's KB and KBG are thusly fine.
SDR
Seeing as how some of the things wrong were SDR's fault as well as the fault of experimentation, there's some contradiction and over assumption in your conclusion. Shield Breaker still needs polish but I will never agree that any melee version is completely balanced in any way as long as the S-tiers remain unchanged. If you like 20 frame spikes, wobbles, 1 frame shines, then this is where we disagree.
Either way, these are all mods that evolve based on meta and player feedback. Thanks for your feedback; it certainly helped.
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