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SSB 2015 Community Tier List

Loak

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
4
Location
Virginia Tech
As a Ness main, I'm not at all surprised by this tier list. In fact, I think it's pretty accurate. On the bright side, I'd probably do halfway decent in a low tier tournament, haha.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
Great answer, that sums up well. That makes a lot of sense too. I know the meta was super reliant on how good your combo game was for a while, because how efficiently you can turn a punish into a stock in 64 is important. The shift in thinking makes a lot of sense.




I had heard it from many people for a long time, and I was factoring in how important combo games in 64 are for the purpose of converting punishes into stocks.
I'm all for people understanding and learning the game and meta but there is a thin line between people who are interested and wanting to understand vs people who pretend to be interested because it seems popular and pretend to want to understand so they can seem knowledgeable. I guarantee, most people don't understand the old list and just believed whatever they heard in a youtube video from a commentator in 2007 that never played 64 and their ignorance is now challenged and they like to pretend they can contribute to the discussion by asking why when they really won't understand the why. I deal with this in casual conversation with people all the time when talking about work. To give an analogy:

Smash (tier list change discussion):
Noob smasher: "Why did the tier list change?"
Veteran smasher: "Because of X, Y, and Z"
Noob smasher: "Oh makes sense I totally understand X, Y, and Z"

Noob smasher: "Why did the tier list change?"
Veteran smasher: "Because of magic"
Noob smasher: "Oh yeah magic, totally makes sense because I believe anything I know nothing about"


Real life (what I do for work discussion):
Tinder girl: "How do you make computer programs?"
Me: "Well theres a lot of stages to the design but basically its built from algorithms that perform certain functions and they are designed in a higher level of code which is easier for a human to read and logically write, but is later compiled using a compiler to translate it into machine code for computers to understand...*continue 10 minute lecture that is expected to completely explain 4 years of college into laymans terms for drunk **** at bar*..."
Tinder girl: "Oh makes sense I totally understand all of that"

Tinder girl: "How do you make computer programs?"
Me: "Magic"
Tinder girl: "Oh yeah magic, totally makes sense because no one knows how computers work and I'll believe anything you say"


Do you see why the questions and their answers can become tiresome and futile? If the 100+ people that came to view this thread actually were interested in the content instead of pretending to be, they would be playing the game and already understand instead of going of myths or agreeing with some random people on smashoards they've never met or validated their skill level.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
As a Ness main, I'm not at all surprised by this tier list. In fact, I think it's pretty accurate. On the bright side, I'd probably do halfway decent in a low tier tournament, haha.
Is there a scene at all down at Tech for 64? I went there from 2007-2012 and there really wasn't a 64 scene despite me and my buddy trying to hustle kids and the GGVT group.

Oh and Go Hokies!
 
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Loak

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
4
Location
Virginia Tech
Is there a scene at all down at Tech for 64? I went there from 2007-2012 and there really wasn't a 64 scene despite me and my buddy trying to hustle kids and the GGVT group.

Oh and Go Hokies!
There's a small smash group here that was organized this year after GGVT fell apart. Mostly melee, but I brought my 64 setup to a few meetings and convinced some people to start playing it more. We had a grass roots tournament in Christiansburg a few weeks ago and I talked the TO into holding a 64 tournament. We had a whole 8 people enter! I wouldn't really call it a "scene" for 64, but at least it's something.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
There's a small smash group here that was organized this year after GGVT fell apart. Mostly melee, but I brought my 64 setup to a few meetings and convinced some people to start playing it more. We had a grass roots tournament in Christiansburg a few weeks ago and I talked the TO into holding a 64 tournament. We had a whole 8 people enter! I wouldn't really call it a "scene" for 64, but at least it's something.
Oh ok yeah sounds like the tournaments we would try and host for 64. A guy I know who still lives down there hosts some pretty good sized tournaments up in Roanoke I believe. I think PM and melee are the two games they have regularly.
 

Crimson Ace

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
27
NNID
BlackestKnight
3DS FC
2681-0941-8621
Interesting! I like this, after all these years, they changed things up! Also, why is Yoshi and Samus so high? I remember Samus being at the bottom, but why is she suddenly at the top? Either way, I'm just glad my mains (Falcon, Fox, Kirby, Pikachu, and Ness) didn't go down (other than Ness)
 

Glasgowsmile

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
20
Location
germany
decent tier list i can definetly agree with, though i´m going to predict, ness climbs to 9 and link to 10 with donkey falling to 11 in some far away future
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,951
Location
Northern NJ, 15 minutes from the GW or Manhattan
Interesting! I like this, after all these years, they changed things up! Also, why is Yoshi and Samus so high? I remember Samus being at the bottom, but why is she suddenly at the top? Either way, I'm just glad my mains (Falcon, Fox, Kirby, Pikachu, and Ness) didn't go down (other than Ness)
Look up many recent tournaments. Wizzrobe and Tacos among others both have gotten multiple top 8 places. Yoshi is just really solid.

In terms of Samus, I think it was more that Samus was hella underrated and Samus is definitely a bit better on Dreamland.
 

FooltheFlames

needs hugs~<3
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Oct 27, 2008
Messages
951
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Ashley's Haunted Mansion!
So Link got bumped down a notch... Nothing Isai has ever done with his Link against many different Pikachu's has proved anything? Anything at all? And yet Samus got bumped up way up because of Jouske am I right? Oh well... I'm not sweating it ;P

Kirby deserves that bump up there; Never did I think Pikachu ever deserved to be in his own tier lol
Puff's nice bump also tickles me silly!

Anyone remember when Ness was considered 3rd best? LOL how the mighty have fallen... (he's still better than atleast Samus imo thou)

SO is this newest tier list is based on Dream Land being neutral and Hyrule Castle being banned or am wrong?
I'd say that's why Fox has dropped because he could laser camp there pretty well but nearly as well as he could on Sector Z.
Can anyone give me some reasons as to why Hyrule Castle got banned if it did? (Tornados arent that much of a problem all of a sudden now are they??? T__T)
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Jan 26, 2013
Messages
2,393
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Luigi sucks
So Link got bumped down a notch... Nothing Isai has ever done with his Link against many different Pikachu's has proved anything? Anything at all? And yet Samus got bumped up way up because of Jouske am I right? Oh well... I'm not sweating it ;P

Kirby deserves that bump up there; Never did I think Pikachu ever deserved to be in his own tier lol
Puff's nice bump also tickles me silly!

Anyone remember when Ness was considered 3rd best? LOL how the mighty have fallen... (he's still better than atleast Samus imo thou)

SO is this newest tier list is based on Dream Land being neutral and Hyrule Castle being banned or am wrong?
I'd say that's why Fox has dropped because he could laser camp there pretty well but nearly as well as he could on Sector Z.
Can anyone give me some reasons as to why Hyrule Castle got banned if it did? (Tornados arent that much of a problem all of a sudden now are they??? T__T)
Isai got 2nd at Apex 2012. Not only was Hyrule legal in that tournament, but there was only really one other "top" player there (boom) and he always had the upper hand in the games played on dreamland. Now, most rulesets are DL only, and no, Samus didn't get bumped up just cuz Jouske.

Isai's link is amazing and that's probably one of his best characters, but he himself had link second to last in his tier list. If Isai destroyed you with Ness, Ness wouldn't all of the sudden be bumped up. I'd be really surprised if Isai won a DL-only tourney with Link with Boom and the top Japanese players in attendance.
 

FooltheFlames

needs hugs~<3
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Isai got 2nd at Apex 2012. Not only was Hyrule legal in that tournament, but there was only really one other "top" player there (boom) and he always had the upper hand in the games played on dreamland. Now, most rulesets are DL only, and no, Samus didn't get bumped up just cuz Jouske.

Isai's link is amazing and that's probably one of his best characters, but he himself had link second to last in his tier list. If Isai destroyed you with Ness, Ness wouldn't all of the sudden be bumped up. I'd be really surprised if Isai won a DL-only tourney with Link with Boom and the top Japanese players in attendance.
I think DL only really hurts Link's placement... all that wide open space, with the far away blast zones on the side- not helping his abymal recovery options at all.
WHY OH WHY is Hyrule Castle not legal anymore? It's been played on for so long, what changed? Nothing! It's still the same stage :ohwell:

I feel like Samus did mainly because of Jouske, Samus hasnt changed just like Hyrule hasnt changed since 1999, only the players who play her and take the 64 competitive scene seriously have

Isai made his own Tier List for 64? :eek: Could you show me see a link to it please? :)
With that hypothetical, If Isai destroyed Boom with Ness, with Boom using only Pikachu, and did it over and over again, then it should bump Ness imo
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
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Messages
5,951
Location
Northern NJ, 15 minutes from the GW or Manhattan
I think DL only really hurts Link's placement... all that wide open space, with the far away blast zones on the side- not helping his abymal recovery options at all.
WHY OH WHY is Hyrule Castle not legal anymore? It's been played on for so long, what changed? Nothing! It's still the same stage :ohwell:

I feel like Samus did mainly because of Jouske, Samus hasnt changed just like Hyrule hasnt changed since 1999, only the players who play her and take the 64 competitive scene seriously have

Isai made his own Tier List for 64? :eek: Could you show me see a link to it please? :)
With that hypothetical, If Isai destroyed Boom with Ness, with Boom using only Pikachu, and did it over and over again, then it should bump Ness imo
His list was noted in there under malva_00/Isai

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier...ing-top-8-is-over.389468/page-5#post-18566155

:pikachu64::kirby64::fox64::falcon64::jigglypuff64::yoshi64::mario64:(:luigi64::ness64::samus64:):link64::dk64:
 
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Sedda

Smash Champion
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Luigi sucks
I think DL only really hurts Link's placement... all that wide open space, with the far away blast zones on the side- not helping his abymal recovery options at all.
WHY OH WHY is Hyrule Castle not legal anymore? It's been played on for so long, what changed? Nothing! It's still the same stage :ohwell:

I feel like Samus did mainly because of Jouske, Samus hasnt changed just like Hyrule hasnt changed since 1999, only the players who play her and take the 64 competitive scene seriously have

Isai made his own Tier List for 64? :eek: Could you show me see a link to it please? :)
With that hypothetical, If Isai destroyed Boom with Ness, with Boom using only Pikachu, and did it over and over again, then it should bump Ness imo
I don't want to be rude, but if you don't know why Hyrule is banned, you don't know enough about the meta to understand why Link is low or why Samus is high. You can't make assumptions about how the game works and where characters should be placed if you think that Jouske is the only reason Samus was moved up.

Samus is better in J version anyway, so it has nothing to do with that.

edit: not only is ness ****ing atrocious, but he's also Isai's worst character. Ness doesn't have anything on Pikachu.
 
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Kidney Thief

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
299
Location
Gatineau/Ottawa
I'll probably never play 64 competitively but I find it really interesting to watch the metagame develop as an outsider. Love the tournaments hope to see some more eventually
 

Capos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Messages
187
With that hypothetical, If Isai destroyed Boom with Ness, with Boom using only Pikachu, and did it over and over again, then it should bump Ness imo
I don't see what that has to do with anything,. Your original point was that Isai's link should prove link is better than his placement, but Isai's link didn't do that either.
 

cerealkiller

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2014
Messages
417
At first, watching Isai's Link sure makes you wonder if Link's placement is fair. But in all seriousness, it doesn't matter how well Isai performs with Link, because for a guy like him there's no such thing as a tier list. He could make any character look like S-Tier.
 

nickthename

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
95
Location
Halcyon Tower
Tinder girl: "How do you make computer programs?"
Me: "Magic"
Tinder girl: "Oh yeah magic, totally makes sense because no one knows how computers work and I'll believe anything you say"
Oh, you're a programmer professionally? What sort? Systems?
 

Yoshi-Fan GM

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
28
Location
Mexico
Wow, I'm happy that Samus rose significanly from the previous tier lists, also Yoshi and Jigglypuff. It was actually one of my "hopes" for this list.

Though I understand Samus is still a bad character, but her grab is one of the most strongest and dangerous ones, specially for chars with bad recoveries such as Fox.

I agree 99% with this tier list. I think Link should have been in last place, though.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
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disproving indeterminism
Wow, I'm happy that Samus rose significanly from the previous tier lists, also Yoshi and Jigglypuff. It was actually one of my "hopes" for this list.

Though I understand Samus is still a bad character, but her grab is one of the most strongest and dangerous ones, specially for chars with bad recoveries such as Fox.

I agree 99% with this tier list. I think Link should have been in last place, though.
Fox doesn't have a bad recovery.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Jan 26, 2013
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2,393
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Luigi sucks
How did you not know this? We've talked about it at Xanadu. I studied computer engineering at Virginia Tech and I'm a software engineer now programming medical software.
nickthename confirmed a bad listener. not in my house!

Fox doesn't have a bad recovery.
fox doesnt have a terrible recovery

shears doesnt know how to edgeguard fox

same difference
 
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FooltheFlames

needs hugs~<3
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Thankies dude .^ ^. you're allright :D
I don't want to be rude, but if you don't know why Hyrule is banned, you don't know enough about the meta to understand why Link is low or why Samus is high. You can't make assumptions about how the game works and where characters should be placed if you think that Jouske is the only reason Samus was moved up.

Samus is better in J version anyway, so it has nothing to do with that.

edit: not only is ness ****ing atrocious, but he's also Isai's worst character. Ness doesn't have anything on Pikachu.
You dont have to worry about being rude, you're not. But if you dont tell me how can I ever learn? Yeah, sure i can look it up at anytime, google it. But this board lives becuz of discussions being held here and they knit us all together as a community.
Samus isnt high though, she's still bottom tier, just queen of it now. I think Link still deserves to be bottom tier too, as much as I dont want him to be it's pretty much a fact :laugh:

NO I do not believe Samus is placed higher now only becuz of Jouske, just mainly/mostly becuz of him. Just like back in the day with Melee, Marth was never considered high or top tier untill Ken showed up on the scene and schooled everyone.
You cant say Jouske has contributed absolutely nothing to the new Samus placement; I'm simply giving credit where credit is due.

Ness is just alright; nothing else :ohwell:
I don't see what that has to do with anything,. Your original point was that Isai's link should prove link is better than his placement, but Isai's link didn't do that either.
Well @ Sedda Sedda told me: "If Isai destroyed you with Ness, Ness wouldn't all of the sudden be bumped up."
That's why I said what I did. It doesnt have to Isai. Let's some random new player shows up to a high profile tourney and just absolutely destroys Isai, Boom & Jouske, etc. only using Ness. Ness shouldnt then be bumped becuz of that? If it happens over and over again consistently? Not just a fluke?

I dont really believe Link needs a higher placement, I do believe that part of why characters earn where their placement in any tier is pertly based upon which of the greatest players at that game choose to get good with. The greatest players are able to show us the greatest potential of a character. Isnt that true?
Dont worry man. I allso think link is better than pikachu.
Not Link just by himself, but Isai with Link yeah. But no else can play just quite like Isai...
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Luigi sucks
@ FooltheFlames FooltheFlames

olikus is just salty because he wanted link to be last. i personally think that link will eventually be where DK is on this list, maybe tied with samus (imo link wins vs samus but samus is less risky), but he can't really be higher than that since even theoretically he doesn't have any amazing advantages over anyone above samus.

it's just really risky to play as him, but like fox, once people start getting better placements with link and showing that he's not a super risky pick just because of a bad recovery, he will go up. it's just really tough to be super consistent with them since a single grab is a huge problem for those characters.

falcon also has a bad recovery, but he doesn't suffer from lack of punish options against other characters that are at 0%, is super fast, has easy combos, etc.
 
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Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
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Storrs, Connecticut
Well @ Sedda Sedda told me: "If Isai destroyed you with Ness, Ness wouldn't all of the sudden be bumped up."
That's why I said what I did. It doesnt have to Isai. Let's some random new player shows up to a high profile tourney and just absolutely destroys Isai, Boom & Jouske, etc. only using Ness. Ness shouldnt then be bumped becuz of that? If it happens over and over again consistently? Not just a fluke?
If that happened, we'd take a look at what the player was doing in order to win with ness and compare that with what we currently know about Ness. If he was using new tools or using previous tools in ways that didn't know of before, that would mean ness has more options that we'd have discovered and he would become a different character. If someone shows up and starts beating isai and boom with ness just because he has better spacing or reactions that wouldn't mean anything.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
Don't listen to Sedda Link has nowhere to go but down (he should be last as it is).

He's a slow defensive character that requires space to effectively utilize his move set. He has no space to do that in a DL only format. Factor in that 1 grab at any percent is essentially guaranteed death for him and you've easily got the worst character in in a DL centric format.

Samus and Luigi are also slow and defensive but they're not going to die every stock due to a single grab.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Jan 26, 2013
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Luigi sucks
link>>>>>>>>>>>>> ness, luigi, dk

he doesn't need hyrule space to beat those characters easily, same with samus
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
is there any consistent objective criteria people are using when they rank or are they just going based on what they think is 1-12? I guarantee that most people (if not all peoples) lists would come out complete differently if their opinions were put through a very specific set of questions. Specifically, if one were to pick a score for every matchup in the game, and those scores were then run through some statistical analysis that we could all agree on, the resulting tier list would look extremely different than the one that person created based on their "feeling", and it would be directly comparable to tier lists from others because the criteria would be consistent.

Idk why i'm writing this, so pointless. LOL new kirby techs op
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,451
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Norway
@ FooltheFlames FooltheFlames

olikus is just salty because he wanted link to be last. i personally think that link will eventually be where DK is on this list, maybe tied with samus (imo link wins vs samus but samus is less risky), but he can't really be higher than that since even theoretically he doesn't have any amazing advantages over anyone above samus.
.
salty? me? nonsense. people have very different opinion over how to rank the last 3 ness link and luigi. So im not suprised at all with him being second last. it was basically bingo at the end. Isai the link master saying link is the worst by those 3 is more than enough for me anyway. Ofc I dont expect you to know my personality, but lets just they a list on an internet site is nowere near my level of getting angry.

My biggets suprise with this list is seeing kirby in the same tier as pika actually. I think pika is easily the best caracther, and at least both falcon and fox could be in the same tier as kirby.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Luigi sucks
dude i was obviously just making a joke over the whole discussion we hadlast time. i dont know you and i dont really care if youre salty human being or not. i still think link is a beast and luigi is the worst character. saying whatever isai thinks doesnt mean much. he's a different human being and he has his opinions just like the rest of us.

do you also think DK is the worst character?
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
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Nov 12, 2009
Messages
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Norway
I just said I agreed with his placement of link lowest of those 3. dunno how you escaleted that to no one else opinions counts and that I agree with every placements he has.

In other more important news. why does people think kirby and pika are in their own tier? not starting a fight, just curious.
 

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
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Storrs, Connecticut
I just said I agreed with his placement of link lowest of those 3. dunno how you escaleted that to no one else opinions counts and that I agree with every placements he has.

In other more important news. why does people think kirby and pika are in their own tier? not starting a fight, just curious.
The math. According to their averaged values in terms of what people voted for, mathematically they will be in their own tier.
 

nickthename

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
95
Location
Halcyon Tower
Blaster's right, based on the votes and the numbers this is the best way of splitting them up into 4 groups.

But if you want a gamplay reason:

I think Kirby and Pika both have extremely good matchup spreads making them worthy of their own tier. A tiers are good characters with overall good matchup spreads, S tier characters are great characters with strong positive against the majority of the cast, with very few weaknesses.
 
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Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
Location
Storrs, Connecticut
Blaster's right, based on the votes and the numbers this is the best way of splitting them up into 4 groups.

But if you want a gamplay reason:

I think Kirby and Pika both have extremely good matchup spreads making them worthy of their own tier. A tiers are good characters with overall good matchup spreads, S tier characters are great characters with strong positive against the majority of the cast, with very few weaknesses.
It's not just an opinion. When put through a mathematical algorithm and logic, Pika and Kirby are going to end up in their own tier (cluster) when there are 4 tiers.
 
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