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[Sonicninja115]

CCI thread? what's that? also I just wanted to spark some conversation and say that if mewtwo had the tools his pm incarnate has (hovering and acting out of teleport) where would he be placed?

Character Competitive Impressions Thread.

He would be the best character in the game. Hands down. No debate. Teleport could be used to extend combos to an insane extent.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Copy/Pasting my thoughts on the new Sun/Moon news from another thread here.

...
Team Skull confirmed for Pokemon Sun and Moon. Chaw-haw-haw!
Please tell me one of you guys gets the reference.


Also Marowak's new form is cool. I figured from Gamexplain's speculation that it'd be a fire type, but now I feel silly for not realizing it'd also be part ghost type. I mean, I always figured a Mega Marowak would be Ground/Ghost, after all.

The new fish and sandcastle are, uh, interesting, but I'm not going to go all genwunner over them. I'm not a fan, but I can appreciate the concept behind them.

I don't care much for the new Meowth form, but I expect the anime I haven't watched in ages will do something fun with it.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Mewtwo is Pay2Win, ya guyz.

But in all seriousness, that Alola Marowak looks awesome with a nice little reference to the ghost of Lavender Town.

Also, take a shot every time a new pokemon game gets unveiled and they start revealing new pokemon, then dozens of threads in other sites pop up saying how "GF has finally run out of ideas". You'll drop dead soon if you do so.

Btw, I haven't seen Speed here in ages. You know with all the Mewtwo buffs that we got, she would have pop her head here.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Mewtwo is Pay2Win, ya guyz.

But you see, there's a difference between Mewtwo and Cloud. With Mewtwo, you actually need to practice to get results.

Spoiler

...Alright, I'm sorry for that joke. I have nothing against Cloud players as individuals, I'm just a bit tired of seeing everyone use him. But I don't mean to shame anyone for using him. I never want to be that guy.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

But you see, there's a difference between Mewtwo and Cloud. With Mewtwo, you actually need to practice to get results.

Spoiler

...Alright, I'm sorry for that joke. I have nothing against Cloud players as individuals, I'm just a bit tired of seeing everyone use him. But I don't mean to shame anyone for using him. I never want to be that guy.

As a Cloud main, I'm way past sick of seeing this in every single YouTube comment section, Smashboard patch article, and the Internet in general. I'm not above goodhearted joshing and joking around, but it's gone beyond meme status to borderline discrimination.

*RANT OVER*

So to those of you who have an Arceus, how do you build him? I'm looking for ideas, although I'm thinking Ghost-type special sweeper (Calm Mind setup.)

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Silk Scarf Extreme Speed Arceus with Sword Dance is a good start.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Silk Scarf Extreme Speed Arceus with Sword Dance is a good start.

That would be great if my Arceus wasn't Timid nature...

 

[Ghidorah14]

As a Cloud main, I'm way past sick of seeing this in every single YouTube comment section, Smashboard patch article, and the Internet in general. I'm not above goodhearted joshing and joking around, but it's gone beyond meme status to borderline discrimination.

Welcome to maining a top tier.

Normally, I have zero sympathy for cloud mains, but as a Bayo main, I can understand where you're coming from.

 

[DavemanCozy]

To be quite honest;

1. My region isn't exactly great at Smash but there are some decent to good players,
2. I haven't played for 3 months, so I decide "let's go to this next monthly,"
3. I played Cloud since I was very rusty and didn't believe in my Fox,
4. I got 5th/50 entrants, playing mostly Cloud (in the end I did choose Fox for some matches though).

Granted, it's not like it was my first time playing Cloud, I was going by where I had left off. But I do agree that he's considerably easier to pick up (you should still practice though, you gotta do that with any character).

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Welcome to maining a top tier.

Normally, I have zero sympathy for cloud mains, but as a Bayo main, I can understand where you're coming from.

I don't know what you think top tier is, but I'm not sure I would consider him as such. I'm not saying he's bad of course, but he's only had what, one tournament win?
If we broke the cast into five tiers, I would place him in the middle of the second highest. Somewhere between 9th and 13th best. Then again, maining him in this community has left me defensive and more aware of his weaknesses.
I won't argue that he's easy to pick up and learn, but he still takes time and effort to master, just like any other character.

Aaaanywho, this is the Mewtwo thread, so let's get back to Pokémon things; All this love for first gen 'mon and their new forms have left me cautiously hopeful that we'll finally get a mega evolution for Nidoking.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I don't know what you think top tier is, but I'm not sure I would consider him as such. I'm not saying he's bad of course, but he's only had what, one tournament win?
If we broke the cast into five tiers, I would place him in the middle of the second highest. Somewhere between 9th and 13th best. Then again, maining him in this community has left me defensive and more aware of his weaknesses.

Nah dude, he is easily top 5. Bayo pre-patch was considered one of, if not the best characters in the game, and she had ZERO tournament results (beyond locals).

On the topic of Sun & Moon, I think we're done with mega forms. I wouldnt be surprised if we got alolan nidoran, though.

 

[---]

Cloud is Top 5 IMO, but I think he'll fall out of it quickly if the current trend of results vs. popularity continues.


Sadly Mega forms might be gone, or at the most, will not be expanded upon. If it is true, I'd say it's a more negative change than positive one. I'd just hope this doesn't continue a trend of gimmicks for future Gens. IMO Z Crystals aren't as interesting and regional forms sound like Pandora's Box. IDK based on rumors I think this Gen is looking to be a tad too liberal for my tastes.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I like being able to edit IVs with Hyper Training. That's something I can get behind. Even with the modifications to the breeding system in XY/ORAS, it was still essentially trying to get a lucky draw.

I hope there's a hard mode to the single player quest as well, like there was in BW2.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Cloud is Top 5 IMO, but I think he'll fall out of it quickly if the current trend of results vs. popularity continues.

I find that Cloud's poor recovery keeps him away from the top 5 spot. Cloud needs Limit Break for the long-ranged recoveries, but getting edge-guarded can lead to disaster for him.

Simply put, to be top tier material, you really can't have a serious weakness like that. At least for someone like Rosalina, her main weakness isn't too serious, as after the Luma gets KO'd, a new Luma will spawn after a while, and her recovery travels far enough to get her back on-stage.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Sadly Mega forms might be gone, or at the most, will not be expanded upon. If it is true, I'd say it's a more negative change than positive one. I'd just hope this doesn't continue a trend of gimmicks for future Gens. IMO Z Crystals aren't as interesting and regional forms sound like Pandora's Box. IDK based on rumors I think this Gen is looking to be a tad too liberal for my tastes.

There is a slot that looks like it's for a mega stone on the Z-ring. And besides, I seriously doubt they'll cut megas now. They're pretty much a staple at this point - pretty much every spin off since X and Y has included them in some way, and a lot of designs are pretty popular. Some pokemon, like Ampharos and Mawile, would fall back into obscurity, and we'd lose a lot of good pokemon designs. There is no way they're getting rid of megas now.

As ORAS has shown us, however, GF is willing to add megas in the middle of a generation. Even if we don't see any in Sun/Moon, that doesn't mean we won't see any in gen 7 at all.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Cloud is Top 5 IMO, but I think he'll fall out of it quickly if the current trend of results vs. popularity continues.


Sadly Mega forms might be gone, or at the most, will not be expanded upon. If it is true, I'd say it's a more negative change than positive one. I'd just hope this doesn't continue a trend of gimmicks for future Gens. IMO Z Crystals aren't as interesting and regional forms sound like Pandora's Box. IDK based on rumors I think this Gen is looking to be a tad too liberal for my tastes.

Nah man, Megas aren't going anywhere. Like Zachmac said, it would be a regression in the formula and it would impact a lot of pokemon like Charizard in a negative way. The worst that can happen is that we get no new mega forms. However, just because they haven't said anything about it doesn't mean that we might not be getting anything. Mega Evolution was the highlight of the last games due to being a radical change to the formula and a new addition, so it's natural that they want to focus first on Z-moves and Alola forms this time since that's the new stuff that they are bringing in.

Also, main whoever you want guys, and don't give a **** about what others say about your character.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I said this once, but I'll say it again because now I kind of feel bad.

I don't have any problem with Cloud mains. I really have problems with how quickly people can get results with him, but I really won't judge or begrudge anyone for using him. And it's not like he's broken or anything, it's just too easy for someone to pick him up without putting much effort into it.

It's not the dedicated Cloud mains I don't like, it's just that there are so many bad players that try to use him to make up for their lack of skill.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Yeah, people should just play who they want and not let others tell them otherwise.

I mean, I will literally never stop giving cloud mains crap for their character being so braindead easy to use (technically he's the new pay2win character now that bayo lost her death combos), but yeah, just do what you want to do!

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Yeah, people should just play who they want and not let others tell them otherwise.

I mean, I will literally never stop giving cloud mains crap for their character being so braindead easy to use (technically he's the new pay2win character now that bayo lost her death combos), but yeah, just do what you want to do!

/triggered.
But seriously, at least he's not Mario.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Sorry to double-post, but I feel like a second post would be better suited to changing the general tone here.
Do you guys think that Mewtwo should get a buff or two?

-Faster startup on Confusion and/or Disable?
-A bit more weight?
-Less loss of momentum at the end of Teleport?
-Shorter hurtbox on his tail when using his tilts?
-[Your idea here]?

 

[Ghidorah14]

He doesnt need it. He's supposed to be a glass cannon, so letting him live even slightly longer flies in the face of that.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

He doesnt need it. He's supposed to be a glass cannon, so letting him live even slightly longer flies in the face of that.

What's wrong with wanting a little less glass in the cannon? Being the second lightest character in the game is ridiculous, imo. And that's not even considering lore.

 

[Deleted member]

Hello everyone! What have I missed in my absence?

 

[Ghidorah14]

What's wrong with wanting a little less glass in the cannon? Being the second lightest character in the game is ridiculous, imo. And that's not even considering lore.

The second lightest character with some of the strongest kill moves in the game. Besides, we already got a slight weight buff.

I personally think mewtwo is in a great place in sm4sh's metagame and tierlists. He doesnt need anymore real buffs. All he really needs are adjustments to some of his less than steller moves.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

The second lightest character with some of the strongest kill moves in the game. Besides, we already got a slight weight buff.

I personally think mewtwo is in a great place in sm4sh's metagame and tierlists. He doesnt need anymore real buffs. All he really needs are adjustments to some of his less than steller moves.

You mean a couple of 'quality of life' changes?

 

[Ghidorah14]

You mean a couple of 'quality of life' changes?

Well, mewtwo has a blindspot, that being behind him, so perhaps making the hitbox of Ftilt come out faster would be nice. It would actually give it a solid purpose, IMO. Or maybe give his uptilt hitboxes behind his head at the "tail end" of the animation.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd personally like to see a game where Mewtwo can be top-tier (a real game btw). My primary Smash mains are Mario and Mewtwo and it saddens me to see one be better than the other.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'd personally like to see a game where Mewtwo can be top-tier (a real game btw). My primary Smash mains are Mario and Mewtwo and it saddens me to see one be better than the other.

>Implying Mewtwo isn't top tier in Smash 4
OR
>Implying Smash 4 isn't a real game on the Smash 4 Mewtwo forums

 

[Krysco]

In regards to the whole Cloud discussion, I can see where the complaints come from. Much like Mario, he's deemed too good for how easy he is to pick up and play, especially when you consider that there are much harder characters to use that aren't even worth it like Peach and Shulk. Cloud gets more flack for being 'pay to win' and generally being considered better than Mario. He also does far better against lower tiered characters than Mario.

That being said, every character takes some actual thought and skill to be good with. M2K and Tweek aren't just pressing buttons when they play. I myself constantly fear 2 things with Cloud: getting gimped and wasting my limit.

As for Mewtwo, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather a nerf, be it to nair, disable or footstools. Because **** infinites. Aaaand Mewtwo has been top tier since his debut...in Pokemon. And he's been considered at least high tier in Sm4sh, usually moreso top tier ever since Abadango won Pound.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

In regards to the whole Cloud discussion, I can see where the complaints come from. Much like Mario, he's deemed too good for how easy he is to pick up and play, especially when you consider that there are much harder characters to use that aren't even worth it like Peach and Shulk. Cloud gets more flack for being 'pay to win' and generally being considered better than Mario. He also does far better against lower tiered characters than Mario.

That being said, every character takes some actual thought and skill to be good with. M2K and Tweek aren't just pressing buttons when they play. I myself constantly fear 2 things with Cloud: getting gimped and wasting my limit.

As for Mewtwo, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather a nerf, be it to nair, disable or footstools. Because **** infinites. Aaaand Mewtwo has been top tier since his debut...in Pokemon. And he's been considered at least high tier in Sm4sh, usually moreso top tier ever since Abadango won Pound.

I think a lot of people forget how (I don't want to say 'bad') hobbled Cloud is without limit charged. And he needs it to not have the third-worst recovery in the game, AND have access to his best kill moves.

Secondly, yeah those buffs for Mewtwo really helped. And Abadango showing us how it's done basically inspired me to take up Mewtwo as my definite secondary.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think Mewtwo's weight makes sense, because he levitates all the time.

Now people always try to argue that it doesn't make sense, but you've got to remember that Smash operates entirely off of cartoon logic where sword swings and laser beams can send you hurtling through the air and spicy curry makes you breath fire. Backwards logic isn't out of place in Smash Brothers as all.

And honestly, now that we've got tournament results to back Mewtwo up, I feel like its safe to say his low weight is justified.

 

[LordShade67]

About weight issues: It's pretty clear they wanted him to be a lightweight. Now that his mobility and tools are really good, I say it justifies the low weight. I tend to think of Mewtwo as Smash 4's Akuma/Gouki: Both have good neutral, both have solid tools, mobility, hit hard, but have low weight/health as a weakness. You don't want to give guys like these too much weight/health. Trust me on this.

I'd rather a nerf, be it to nair, disable or footstools. Because **** infinites.

NAir's already a bad tool for neutral, and M2's infinite is...not really worth it. You're doing that Footstoo > DJC Disable for what? 1% per single hit? You can do better damage with a basic followup.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Mewtwo's weight makes sense, because he levitates all the time.

Now people always try to argue that it doesn't make sense, but you've got to remember that Smash operates entirely off of cartoon logic where sword swings and laser beams can send you hurtling through the air and spicy curry makes you breath fire. Backwards logic isn't out of place in Smash Brothers as all.

And honestly, now that we've got tournament results to back Mewtwo up, I feel like its safe to say his low weight is justified.

The problem is that he's too big, and, in addition to that, he's also floaty. That means that a weight value of 74 is actually a value of about 65 when hit with vertical attacks, this, compounded with Mewtwo's large hurtboxes, is what makes Mewtwo die earlier than Jigglypuff off the top of the stage. That is exactly why Mewtwo needs a weight buff; his current weight is inaccurate to how light he really is, by increasing his weight value, it would allow him to be floaty without being uselessly frail.

----------------------

>Implying Mewtwo isn't top tier in Smash 4
OR
>Implying Smash 4 isn't a real game on the Smash 4 Mewtwo forums

Oh yeah I remember you, you're that troll that I ignored.

Mewtwo isn't top tier in Smash 4
and
Project M isn't a real game, last time I recalled.

welp, back to ignore for you

 

[Krysco]

About weight issues: It's pretty clear they wanted him to be a lightweight. Now that his mobility and tools are really good, I say it justifies the low weight. I tend to think of Mewtwo as Smash 4's Akuma/Gouki: Both have good neutral, both have solid tools, mobility, hit hard, but have low weight/health as a weakness. You don't want to give guys like these too much weight/health. Trust me on this.



NAir's already a bad tool for neutral, and M2's infinite is...not really worth it. You're doing that Footstoo > DJC Disable for what? 1% per single hit? You can do better damage with a basic followup.

It's still an infinite, a series of repetitive buttons presses that rack up damage, no matter how slowly while the opponent has close to nothing they can do to stop it once it starts. I was against the one ZSS had on Robin at the games launch, the custom ones Pika had and Falcon still has, the ones Peach had and has and apparently Pac-man has access to them too although I've never seen a video showing that last one. I'm against all of those and Mewtwo's too.

 

[Deleted member]

It's still an infinite, a series of repetitive buttons presses that rack up damage, no matter how slowly while the opponent has close to nothing they can do to stop it once it starts. I was against the one ZSS had on Robin at the games launch, the custom ones Pika had and Falcon still has, the ones Peach had and has and apparently Pac-man has access to them too although I've never seen a video showing that last one. I'm against all of those and Mewtwo's too.

It doesn't matter. It's still too weak to be used for anything. Not only is it technically demanding, but it also only does 1% per iteration. Mewtwo needs all the help he can get. Besides, nobody complained about Wobbling and Brawlbbling, so what's so different about this?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Mewtwo isn't top tier in Smash 4

Abandongo has already proven that he's viable at high level play. If tournament results aren't good enough for you, then there's no point in trying to change your opinion, I suppose.

I know better than to put too much effort into trying to argue with you.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Mewtwo needs all the help he can get.

This just tells me that you're a whiner. Mewtwo is a fantasic character now.

They changed meta knight's ladder combo, bayonetta's o-deaths, and even a similar infinite peach had. Why should mewtwo keep his? He doesnt need it.

Maybe YOU need it, though. :/

 

[Krysco]

It doesn't matter. It's still too weak to be used for anything. Not only is it technically demanding, but it also only does 1% per iteration. Mewtwo needs all the help he can get. Besides, nobody complained about Wobbling and Brawlbbling, so what's so different about this?

People DID complain about the ICies stuff in the previous Smash games and it's the big reason people are happy that they're gone in this game and the amount of damage doesn't matter. Your goal is to rack up damage on your opponent till you can send them off the stage and lose a stock. Alternatively, you can stall out the timer and have more stock or equal stock and less percent than your opponent to win. The infinite greatly helps that by slowly but surely damaging the opponent while you yourself are safe and you can end the infinite with a ko move. Back in Melee and Brawl, a rule had to be made where you don't wobble or chain grab or do a team combo in doubles that makes your opponents damage exceed %300 because once a wobble, Brawl IC chain grab or certain team combos start, you COULD theoretically do it until the timer ran out, literally preventing your opponent from doing anything. These infinites are not much different. There's a bit more leeway since Diddy, MK and Olimar are immune to it and small characters like Kirby and Pika are hard to keep it up consistently, plus it doesn't even work at lower percents but it's still an infinite on numerous characters.

Mewtwo is already a fine character with many great things going for him. Getting more wouldn't hurt him but he does not need an infinite and Nintendo has shown through patches that they are willing to get rid of infinites, they don't want them and neither do I.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I hope I didn't start a bruhaha with all this talk of buffs. I'm just of the opinion that lower-tiers should be buffed before high-tiers get nerfed. Not touting the Brawl- mentality, but...

 

[Krysco]

I hope I didn't start a bruhaha with all this talk of buffs. I'm just of the opinion that lower-tiers should be buffed before high-tiers get nerfed. Not touting the Brawl- mentality, but...

I agree with your opinion but tier placements don't matter to me when it comes to infinites. Peach is only mid and I want hers gone. If Pac-man has one, I want it gone and he's certainly not top tier. Puff, Ganon or Zelda could have one and I'd want it gone, no matter how slowly damaging it is, how technically demanding it is or if it even works on only 1 character like the ZSS one. I'd show more disdain for Falcon's but customs are largely banned so I don't see it as a big deal.