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[420quickscoper]

Just wanted to say, you guys are a really nice community of Mewtwo players.

 

[Aninymouse]

Abadango's bottom half of his tier list is a total mess. The top half looks agreeable.

A bunch of characters need to move up. It might "look funny" to have such a massive mid tier, with almost no one in low tier, but that is an accurate representation of the game as it really is.

I agree with Abadango that Robin is underrated, but Robin needs to get 8th at MLG before I'll ever put Robin above Ike.

Very nice. There's a lot of good pictures there, especially considering that the 3DS version doesn't take as good ones as the Wii U version.

Taking screenshots is actually a really underrated thing. In Smash, there are so many possibilities for good photos. There are 55 different characters plus the Miis that can be pretty much anyone, and there are a ton of stages and assist trophies/Pokemon to take into account as well. I'd actually consider taking some pictures myself for both versions.

Thank you!

Yeah, in Melee, one of my favorite things to do was to mess around in camera mode for hours. One of my sisters has a Gamecube memory card with all my best pictures on it, lol. I'm doing it pretty inconsistently with Smash 3DS, but this huge, colorful roster makes it way more fun. If I had a local friend to team up with, I'd be able to pull off some more complex shots.

In general, I find Japanese players take better screenshots than most other countries, at least in Smash 3DS.

 

[LRodC]

Okay guys, I'm not sure if everyone here pays attention to ZeRo's videos on YouTube, but on his recent Marth analysis video, I had made a comment asking for what he thinks about post-patch Mewtwo, since he said that pre-patch was awful, but of course we all know Mewtwo's so, so much better now.
My comment's already gotten about 112 likes! But... it's also gotten an extremely negative amount of comments, being almost at 62 with it just being one big debate on whether Mewtwo has gotten out of low-tier now. It's been namely me and one other defending him, but people just won't listen to what I'm saying and are downright dismissing his strengths simply because of his flaws.
One person even said that
"His whole moveset is just situational at best. His combos are situational, his specials are situational, his kill moves are, well, situational. They all work well, but only under the correct circumstances (which usually aren't met). When summed up, Mewtwo is a glass Canon with good kill potential and proper tools, but the larger half of the roster can usually nullify those tools with their own. He's a gimmicky style character, meant to use unorthodox play styles to score stylish and humiliating kills. But as far as competitive viability goes he is outclassed."
...Which I don't even know how to respond to.


Also, Mewtwo at 18th? I mean... I guess I like it? But then it's still feels like some might very dislike his placing there...

I like ZeRo a lot and I think he's a good influence on the competitive scene in general since he gives very constructive advice and feedback to the community, and he's always encouraging others to get better to match his level, which is good for the game.

However, a lot of his followers, and plenty of Smash players in general, aren't too capable of independent thought. Most people follow him because he's simply the best player currently. They establish the current popular opinion as the standard unless something challenges that, such as an opinion of one or a few top players or significant results. For example, ZeRo posted his 1.1.4 Marth impressions, which were positive. This got people paying attention to Marth. Now say that he never posted a video at all. How much do you want to bet that people would still call him a mediocre or crappy character even with his buffs received if ZeRo didn't say something about it?

Now, let me go to Mewtwo. We're the Mewtwo forum so we know his strengths and we know his weaknesses. However, the current stigma with quite a few characters, such as Mewtwo (weight), Little Mac (recovery), Robin (speed), and Shulk (frame data), is that the flaws of the character are obvious and designed as intentional flaws with their design, so it's not exactly tough to point these out and they're not very subjective. It's not like saying "Roy has a crappy neutral" which is a tougher flaw to point out and identify. This is called tunnel vision where you can't see or underestimate any good points of a character and just focus on the bad points. People also do this the other way around and focus only on the good things of a character and ignore the bad points. Both are poor and both are biased ways of looking at things.

Basically, the only way to really solve player stigma is to have results backing the characters up enough so that they can be erased and that top players' opinions change due to those results. It's not exactly an easy thing to do.

People also have to look at every character objectively. "Does this character have tools that make up for their flaws?" "Do the flaws hurt this character's strengths?" "How relevant are both their strengths and weaknesses?"

Personally, on Mewtwo... I'm not exactly sure as of right now. I think his current position on the official tier list is pretty accurate at the moment, give or take, but I think he has good potential to rise. To me, he hovers around high low tier to low mid tier.

 

[Mikau Anaki]

As a Link main, the buffed recoveries only serve to make previously low-tier characters more competitively viable. It's really hard to go from Sm4sh Link back to any previous games because his recovery used to be so ****. I kinda wish they'd bring back Melee's tether mechanics. I only played Melee as a small child so I never knew you could grapple to walls.

Problem is if they're gonna take a spell from Ganondorf it's probably going to be the Dead Man's Volley magic ball, which as Dedede has proven is SO effective. TP Ganon does use magic... on horseback.

It seems that Demitri Maximoff is basically what some people want Smash Ganondorf to be.



Too bad Hyrule Warriors has him using the Warlock Punch (admittedly with an added projectile), so it's probably too ingrained by this point.

As he is Ganondorf pretty much DOES embody the way he fights as a boss: very slow moving (TP Ganondorf pretty much runs as fast as Smash Ganondorf) while hitting like a truck. He just needs a little extra something, like floating or a teleport move.

I actually think the volleyball thing would be awesome. I'm pretty sure that mechanic was included in that Project Ganondorf mod. It will be different than Dedede. WIth King Dedede, once the opponent hits the Gordo back, you're pretty screwed b3ecause that thing is going a million miles an hour. With Ganondorf, it would function like it does in the games: It starts off slow-moving but gains speed each time it is reflected, thus making it harder to continue reflecting over time. It could also do more damage each time it gets reflected, rewarding the player's skill in keeping it going for so long.

Very nice. There's a lot of good pictures there, especially considering that the 3DS version doesn't take as good ones as the Wii U version.

Taking screenshots is actually a really underrated thing. In Smash, there are so many possibilities for good photos. There are 55 different characters plus the Miis that can be pretty much anyone, and there are a ton of stages and assist trophies/Pokemon to take into account as well. I'd actually consider taking some pictures myself for both versions.

Shame you need a freaking SD card to save screenshots. I can't count the amount of times that I had to pass up the opportunity for a spectacular photo. I'm also a little annoyed that it automatically saves photos when it's so easy to accidentaly press the screenshot button. Pause the game, set down the controller..come back- oops! Looks like I accidentaly bumped one of the triggers again! They gave us the option of saving or discarding in Brawl, why remove it?

 

[LRodC]

Shame you need a freaking SD card to save screenshots. I can't count the amount of times that I had to pass up the opportunity for a spectacular photo. I'm also a little annoyed that it automatically saves photos when it's so easy to accidentaly press the screenshot button. Pause the game, set down the controller..come back- oops! Looks like I accidentaly bumped one of the triggers again! They gave us the option of saving or discarding in Brawl, why remove it?

Do or did you have a Wii? If so, you probably had an SD card that you used for it since its flash memory was anemic. You can use that one to save pictures on. If not, it's fairly cheap to get one now.

I do agree about the triggers though. That's annoying.

 

[meleebrawler]

I actually think the volleyball thing would be awesome. I'm pretty sure that mechanic was included in that Project Ganondorf mod. It will be different than Dedede. WIth King Dedede, once the opponent hits the Gordo back, you're pretty screwed b3ecause that thing is going a million miles an hour. With Ganondorf, it would function like it does in the games: It starts off slow-moving but gains speed each time it is reflected, thus making it harder to continue reflecting over time. It could also do more damage each time it gets reflected, rewarding the player's skill in keeping it going for so long.

No, they just replaced Warlock Punch with a cape (moving it to a taunt).

As a Link main, the buffed recoveries only serve to make previously low-tier characters more competitively viable. It's really hard to go from Sm4sh Link back to any previous games because his recovery used to be so ****. I kinda wish they'd bring back Melee's tether mechanics. I only played Melee as a small child so I never knew you could grapple to walls.

Or you could just play Corrin if you want wall-grappling.

 

[LRodC]

I highly prefer the tether mechanic from Brawl onward compared to the Melee one. The Melee tethers (I think it was just the Links and Samus?) were fun, but the ones we have now are way more practical in an actual match. There was usually little reason to ever use them in Melee and the free fall state was pointless. If it wasn't for Link having a ledge grabbing tether in Brawl, he probably would've had the worst recovery in that game. And he was already in that running.

 

[Metallinatus]

I highly prefer the tether mechanic from Brawl onward compared to the Melee one. The Melee tethers (I think it was just the Links and Samus?) were fun, but the ones we have now are way more practical in an actual match. There was no reason to ever use them in Melee and the free fall state was pointless. If it wasn't for Link having a ledge grabbing tether in Brawl, he probably would've had the worst recovery in that game. And he was already in that running.

Wut? No reason? To EVER use? It's impossible to play Samus competitively without tether in Melee lol
And tethers themselves were better in Melee because of the wall grabs, the reason why they may seem better now it is because of changes of everything else in the game, the physics, the improved air mobility, the much better recoveries themselves, etc.

 

[LRodC]

Wut? No reason? To EVER use? It's impossible to play Samus competitively without tether in Melee lol
And tethers themselves were better in Melee because of the wall grabs, the reason why they may seem better now it is because of changes of everything else in the game, the physics, the improved air mobility, the much better recoveries themselves, etc.

Yeah I'll be honest, I never really played much of 64 or Melee so I don't know as much in depth about those games as I do with Brawl and Smash 4 since I started taking Smash seriously with Brawl. However, I do like the applications of tethers now more than I did in Melee. They feel easier to use and you can even attack with them with little risk.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I always forget to leave a comment on Zero's videos asking him to do one on post-patch Mewtwo...

 

[Smashifer]

I always forget to leave a comment on Zero's videos asking him to do one on post-patch Mewtwo...

You could, but be prepared for a bunch of comments along the lines of "he still sucks" or others trying to prove you wrong at all costs.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

You could, but be prepared for a bunch of comments along the lines of "he still sucks" or others trying to prove you wrong at all costs.

It's YouTube. Comments on YouTube are usually toxic...except maybe in the case of cute animal videos. I wouldn't be surprised if people find something to argue about in those types of videos anyways.

 

[LRodC]

It's YouTube. Comments on YouTube are usually toxic...except maybe in the case of cute animal videos. I wouldn't be surprised if people find something to argue about in those types of videos anyways.

Actually, those are toxic too because of insane people that think everything is animal cruelty.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Hey guys! Was messing around in training mode with M2's U-Tilt and I found some interesting strings that might help us with bigger characters...maybe. I tested these on DK I was able to consistently get 40-60%.

I have found better strings when DK is behind me. Granted he needs to be far enough that it sends him upwards behind us, and not in front of us.

Utilt-Uair-Bair-Pivot F-Tilt = 40%
Utilt-Bair-FF-Uair-Fair = 41%
Utilt-Bair-FF-Utilt-Bair-Pivot F-Tilt = 45%
U-tilt-B-Air-FF-Utilt-Bair-Bair = 49%
Utilt-Bair-FF-Utilt-Bair-FF-Usmash = 52%
Utilt-Bair-FF-Utilt-Bair-FF-Utilt-Bair-Bair = 67%

Sadly they all require a lot of precision and I'm aware none of them may be fullprrof, which is where N-Air comes in. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to properly get a good string going with N-Air so I might post more about that later. What do you guys think??

 

[FalKoopa]

M Mikau Anaki
Please don't double post. If you want to add something, use the Edit button. Thanks.

 

[Furret24]

M Mikau Anaki
Please don't double post. If you want to add something, use the Edit button. Thanks.

Surprising to see you just pop up here.

 

[Browny]

So you guys seen Abadangos new tier list? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca_rhghUMAAakZm.jpg

Characters are NOT ranked within tiers.

Gotta say, personally I've been feeling more and more like Mewtwo is top 25 which I actually said yesterday. People are really starting to clue on that Mewtwos neutral game is extremely good. Everyone likes to compare characters to sheik and say their character has a bad neutral game, that just skews your perception.

 

[420quickscoper]

So you guys seen Abadangos new tier list? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca_rhghUMAAakZm.jpg

Characters are NOT ranked within tiers.

Gotta say, personally I've been feeling more and more like Mewtwo is top 25 which I actually said yesterday. People are really starting to clue on that Mewtwos neutral game is extremely good. Everyone likes to compare characters to sheik and say their character has a bad neutral game, that just skews your perception.

I thought his neutral was decent to okay. Is it really that good? Is it way up there?

Edit: The more I think about that... I kind of understand.

 

[LRodC]

So you guys seen Abadangos new tier list? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca_rhghUMAAakZm.jpg

Characters are NOT ranked within tiers.

Gotta say, personally I've been feeling more and more like Mewtwo is top 25 which I actually said yesterday. People are really starting to clue on that Mewtwos neutral game is extremely good. Everyone likes to compare characters to sheik and say their character has a bad neutral game, that just skews your perception.

I'm questioning his placement of Zero Suit Samus. I've almost never seen her in a tier other than top, so I'm interested in why she's there. I also like his optimism of Mewtwo as a main of the character, but I'm not quite sure if I'd place him that high personally (or Robin and Lucario). I'd put him in the tier below, but he's a much better player than I am so maybe he knows something I don't.

Duck Hunt seems optimistic as well, but Japan likes him better than we do.

 

[420quickscoper]

I'm questioning his placement of Zero Suit Samus. I've almost never seen her in a tier other than top, so I'm interested in why she's there. I also like his optimism of Mewtwo as a main of the character, but I'm not quite sure if I'd place him that high personally (or Robin). I'd put him in the tier below, but he's a much better player than I am so maybe he knows something I don't.

Duck Hunt seems optimistic as well, but Japan likes him better than we do.

Duck Hunt has Brood and I'm sure Brood has some notable stuff over there.

What's strange about Mewtwo's placement is that I don't really notice much Mewtwo play over there... or is that just me, I don't really watch many tournaments anyways. The only notable Mewtwo over there is Abadango, right? As far as I know. And he doesn't really use him that much in tournaments, but with how high he places him I think he might take him out for a walk.

Abadango thinks that ZSS is overrated, probably because her neutral isn't that good.

 

[Browny]

Abadango used Mewtwo vs Rains sheik a few days ago and was beating him comprehensively before he saw a pot of gold deep underneath battlefield and went for it.

At least that's the only reason I can come up with as for why he SD'd going so low, when sheik was on stage and not pressuring him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Two things to catch up on the conversation.
1. Ganondorf is not a problem, as he actually appears in multiple Zelda games as the Gerudo King. On the other hand, Sheik is ONLY in Ocarina of Time and Hyrule Warriors. That's it. Why do we still have Sheik when we can have Impa instead? I'd take a Sheikah with a halberd over the monstrous top tier we have now any day of the week.

It's never good to have a character cut from Smash. Sheik's been here since Melee. She's got a lot of loyal fans that would of been upset if she was cut.

Just look at Ice Climbers. Who cares about that game? Even if you get past that the physics were awful, it's still not that remarkable of a piece of Nintendo history. Yet there are still a ton of people who'd buy Popo and Nana in an instant, even if they never even played their original game back on the NES.

 

[Murlough]

I like Abadango's list but I think alot of it is overly optimistic.

I don't get the ZSS being so low. I personally think Lucas is better than Ness but I could easily be wrong. Mewtwo's place makes me happy but I doubt an official list will ever put him that high. What the **** happened to Greninja? He isn't that bad. WFT is definately better than GrannyDorf (fun character though). I'm glad he realizes how good Bayo is. Why is Luigi so low now? Lucario.......just no.

I'm gonna end it there as I'm rambling and am not really in a position to make an tier-list myself. I just figured I'd share my thoughts.


Overall, I like the list....even if I'm a bit nit-picky.

 

[U-Throw]

On the other hand, Sheik is ONLY in Ocarina of Time and Hyrule Warriors. That's it. Why do we still have Sheik when we can have Impa instead? I'd take a Sheikah with a halberd over the monstrous top tier we have now any day of the week.

I mean, I guess I can understand your sentiment here, but cutting Sheik and replacing her Impa seems a little extreme, in my opinion, especially when Impa has enough moveset potential to play totally different from Sheik. Why cut one in favor of the other when you can have both? If Impa uses the Giant Blade, I can see her playing loosely similar to Cloud, but with a few more magical attacks, especially since she has hydrokinesis in Hyrule Warriors. Alternatively, Impa could wield her Naginata (which I assume is the same thing as a halberd) and use pyrokinesis instead, which would probably mean that she would get a totally unique playstyle. Of course, if we're talking about naginata users, Chewgi is my first choice. Plus, in my opinion, cutting a character because they're top-tier is a little silly, seeing as you can always just nerf them into a lower tier. I dunno. I guess I would rather have both Sheik and Impa, rather than putting Impa in Sheik's place. This is all just my opinion, of course.

As for Abadango's tier placement of Mewtwo, I'd say that it's probably just a little too high. I'd probably move Mewtwo down to 23 or 24, maybe even down to just outside the top 25. I don't think Abadango's placement of Mewtwo is too far off, though. I can't really speak for many of the other characters on the list, but it is bizarre to see Zero Suit Samus so low, and I was under the impression that Pit was marginally better than Dark Pit, not the other way around. The patches may have changed something, however.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I mean, I guess I can understand your sentiment here, but cutting Sheik and replacing her Impa seems a little extreme, in my opinion, especially when Impa has enough moveset potential to play totally different from Sheik. Why cut one in favor of the other when you can have both? If Impa uses the Giant Blade, I can see her playing loosely similar to Cloud, but with a few more magical attacks, especially since she has hydrokinesis in Hyrule Warriors. Alternatively, Impa could wield her Naginata (which I assume is the same thing as a halberd) and use pyrokinesis instead, which would probably mean that she would get a totally unique playstyle. Of course, if we're talking about naginata users, Chewgi is my first choice. Plus, in my opinion, cutting a character because they're top-tier is a little silly, seeing as you can always just nerf them into a lower tier. I dunno. I guess I would rather have both Sheik and Impa, rather than putting Impa in Sheik's place. This is all just my opinion, of course.

As for Abadango's tier placement of Mewtwo, I'd say that it's probably just a little too high. I'd probably move Mewtwo down to 23 or 24, maybe even down to just outside the top 25. I don't think Abadango's placement of Mewtwo is too far off, though. I can't really speak for many of the other characters on the list, but it is bizarre to see Zero Suit Samus so low, and I was under the impression that Pit was marginally better than Dark Pit, not the other way around. The patches may have changed something, however.

I heard the list didn't put each tier in any order, so it's not really saying one character within a tier is better or worse than another character in the same tier.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Dark Pit is arguably better than Pit, though. Electroshock Arm got an awesome buff, so now it's actually a kill move. That's great for a character with such limited kill options.
Pit still has the better arrows, but even his arrows are still only meh. Electroshock, however, is pretty decent.

 

[Murlough]

Base Mewtwo in Pokken tournament may end up with his Y mega. The new Corocoro released and while Serebii hasn't stated it you can see the Y form on the page in the 3D style of Pokken so my hopes are up.

No new characters as of yet though.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Base Mewtwo in Pokken tournament may end up with his Y mega. The new Corocoro released and while Serebii hasn't stated it you can see the Y form on the page in the 3D style of Pokken so my hopes are up.

No new characters as of yet though.

I think it's pretty much a guarantee.
"Finally, it lists standard Mewtwo as being able to use moves such as Hyper Beam."
It seems Mewtwo and Shadow Mewtwo will have different movesets, like Pikachu and Pikachu Libre.

 

[420quickscoper]

mfw ZeRo does a Kirby analysis and not a Mewtwo analysis
let's face it, he absolutely doesn't care about M2
I'll be actually surprised if he's next

at this point, I don't know if I even care,

 

[Murlough]

Look again.
"Finally, it lists standard Mewtwo as being able to use moves such as Hyper Beam." - Serebii

Regular Mewtwo was pretty much guaranteed to get in in some form or another. It'd be really strange to have a shadow version but not the actual thing.

We've known base Mewtwo would be in for a while. I just don't want both base and shadow Mewtwo to get the X mega form.

And yeah it said that.....why does that matter?

 

[ZephyrZ]

We've known base Mewtwo would be in for a while. I just don't want both base and shadow Mewtwo to get the X mega form.

And yeah it said that.....why does that matter?

Ah, yeah, I just caught that and fixed it just as you quoted.

But point being, it seems stand Mewtwo will have its own moveset. If it's a separate character, there's no reason for it not to use Mega Y form instead.

 

[Browny]

mfw ZeRo does a Kirby analysis and not a Mewtwo analysis
let's face it, he absolutely doesn't care about M2

Seeing as he lives in SoCal, hes eventually going to notice what Mewtwo can do thanks to RichBrown.

Zero only cares to do analysis videos if a lot of people have been wondering, so that's what we all need to do.

Just start... wondering about Mewtwo.

 

[420quickscoper]

Seeing as he lives in SoCal, hes eventually going to notice what Mewtwo can do thanks to RichBrown.

Zero only cares to do analysis videos if a lot of people have been wondering, so that's what we all need to do.

Just start... wondering about Mewtwo.

It's funny, because Mewtwo is probably the most wondered about character since 1.1.3. He probably got the biggest buff.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

Base Mewtwo in Pokken tournament may end up with his Y mega. The new Corocoro released and while Serebii hasn't stated it you can see the Y form on the page in the 3D style of Pokken so my hopes are up.

No new characters as of yet though.

I'm pretty sure the pic with Y was for some announcement for Pokemon Tretta. You can see the regular Mewtwo next to it is a different design from the Pokken Tournament one.

 

[Murlough]

Ah, yeah, I just caught that and fixed it just as you quoted.

But point being, it seems stand Mewtwo will have its own moveset. If it's a separate character, there's no reason for it not to use Mega Y form instead.

Gotcha. Yeah that is exactly what I'm hoping for. I really don't like X. I figured Base would get Y until someone in the Pokken thread in the Nintenzone showned a picture of base Mewtwo's X form looking straight out of Pokken. So this new Corocoro image is very interesting.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm pretty sure the pic with Y was for some announcement for Pokemon Tretta. You can see the regular Mewtwo next to it is a different design from the Pokken Tournament one.

...Oh dang, I forgot Pokemon Tretta existed. And the screenshot's even got the logo...

Still, though, it'd be weird if they made Mewtwo two seperate characters and gave them both the same Mega.

 

[Murlough]

I'm pretty sure the pic with Y was for some announcement for Pokemon Tretta. You can see the regular Mewtwo next to it is a different design from the Pokken Tournament one.

...Oh dang, I forgot Pokemon Tretta existed. And the screenshot's even got the logo...

Still, though, it'd be weird if they made Mewtwo two seperate characters and gave them both the same Mega.

My hype just died. ;-;

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I'll even annotate the picture to show instances it says Tretta. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

 

[Murlough]

What is Pokemon Tretta?

 

[420quickscoper]

okay, soo...

I feel kind of proud of myself.
I feel that achieving a good Mewtwo at the young age that I'm at is kind of... stunning to me for some reason.
But since I'm young I've got a ton of time to improve
have any one of you seen my 1.1.2 play, where I posted a video of my play?
well.
thanks to 1.1.3...
I'm a lot better now.