Social Spoon Sword Social

[---]

Garchomp: Was waiting for this one to be announced. Would like to see a bit more diversity in the roster but it's hard to argue with a land shark.
Braxian: It's grown on me, but I'm still mixed on the Delfox line as a whole given their mixed designs. That said, it's good to see another middlestage Pokemon, a Gen 6 Pokemon, and a spell caster could lead to some interesting animations.
Mewtwo: THANK YOU. Shadow Mewtwo felt really out of place IMO. Will it have it's own moveset or just be a costume?

Movie 19: That new picture just reeks of character/gives me Lucario vibes. Hopefully that means the movie won't go with the standard legendary formula.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Garchomp: Was waiting for this one to be announced. Would like to see a bit more diversity in the roster but it's hard to argue with a land shark.
Braxian: It's grown on me, but I'm still mixed on the Delfox line as a whole given their mixed designs. That said, it's good to see another middlestage Pokemon, a Gen 6 Pokemon, and a spell caster could lead to some interesting animations.
Mewtwo: THANK YOU. Shadow Mewtwo felt really out of place IMO. Will it have it's own moveset or just be a costume?

Movie 19: That new picture just reeks of character/gives me Lucario vibes. Hopefully that means the movie won't go with the standard legendary formula.

Judging by fighting game standards, Mewtwo and Shadow Mewtwo only have stat differences. Hope this one has Y instead

 

[Metallinatus]

Yes! Regular Mewtwo finally in! And I agree.... wtf is a starter stage 1 doing in there? I would have liked Delphox instead....
Wait, isn't Fennekin a support? That opens possibilities for many other Pokémon that have a support pre-evolution.

Abadango just posted a new tier list. Thoughts on Mewtwo's position or any others? Rows are not ordered.

Personally, I think that's about right for Mewtwo at the moment with a possible rise in the future. Still pretty early to tell. Way better than how people used to think of him.

I question his other positions though. I think Ike, DK, Link, Falco, Kirby, and WFT are too low. Jiggs is too high and should also be in E tier I think. DH is pretty high. I'm very surprised that Cloud is as high as he is right now, but he could potentially justify that with more time. I think he's very powerful.

RIP Lucina ;-;
I think that Mewtwo is well placed, but Samus.... arrrgh, still way underrated. And Ike too in that case.... he should be way higher o.O

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes! Regular Mewtwo finally in! And I agree.... wtf is a starter stage 1 doing in there? I would have liked Delphox instead....
Wait, isn't Fennekin a support? That opens possibilities for many other Pokémon that have a support pre-evolution.

Namely, Greninja.

RIP Lucina ;-;
I think that Mewtwo is well placed, but Samus.... arrrgh, still way underrated. And Ike too in that case.... he should be way higher o.O

I tried to cheer up the Samus boards by reminding them of the constant little changes she got through the patches (I was kind of sick of hearing that she was "ignored" just because she hasn't gotten a MAJOR change plus nothing in the most recent patch), and I pretty much got branded as an idiot who knew nothing about how bad Samus is. I get that working as hard as they do to advance her metagame in the face of naysayers who don't even fully understand her shortcomings could make anyone bitter, but...

 

[LRodC]

I too feel that Samus is underrated. Not great, just underrated. Kind of like pre-patch Mewtwo actually IMO. She just needs a couple important adjustments. I think if she had a way to kill confirm into Screw Attack like ZSS can with the boost kick, people wouldn't be trashing her so hard.

 

[Metallinatus]

Namely, Greninja.



I tried to cheer up the Samus boards by reminding them of the constant little changes she got through the patches (I was kind of sick of hearing that she was "ignored" just because she hasn't gotten a MAJOR change plus nothing in the most recent patch), and I pretty much got branded as an idiot who knew nothing about how bad Samus is. I get that working as hard as they do to advance her metagame in the face of naysayers who don't even fully understand her shortcomings could make anyone bitter, but...

She has a lot of flaws, namely, hitboxes flaws that DID get ignored every patch....
But even with those ridiculous purposily flaws, she is a combo machine that can get you on high damage pretty quickly and has a lot of kill potential....
That is enough to grant her a mid-mid tier, at least.

EDIT:

I too feel that Samus is underrated. Not great, just underrated. Kind of like pre-patch Mewtwo actually IMO. She just needs a couple important adjustments. I think if she had a way to kill confirm into Screw Attack like ZSS can with the boost kick, people wouldn't be trashing her so hard.

Actually, although not as easy to land as with ZSS, Up Air, Up Air, Up B is a thing with Samus too.

EDIT2: Just remembered.... falling Up Air into Screw Attack is an even better kill confirm.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Glad to see RegularTwo in, although pretty much everyone was expecting it.

I don't know, Kirby, Charizard, Roy, WFT, DK, Lucas and Ike seem way too low; specially DK and Ike who have gotten very powerful since the updates came through. And Cloud is too high, the guy is good from what I've seen but some of his perceived power is merely people not being used to him yet, like Bowser during the first months of Smash 4.

Along with the Pokkén Tournament updates, there's apparently some new information in regards to Volcanion's involvement in the next Pokemon movie...

Spoiler

Apparently, this Volcanion despises humans, which really isn't anything new, since we've seen incidents like that before with the Kanto region Mewtwo and Sinnoh region Arceus. What we don't know is what caused Volcanion to hate humans to begin with.

This information came directly from Serebii.net.

You know, Pokemon movies are more enjoyable the less Ash and co. are on-screen. I enjoyed Mewtwo Awakening despite being a so-so movie, the parts where Mewtwo would battle against the Genesect army were very intense; until Ash showed up and starts spouting his crap about "fighting is bad!". He is just merely there to get in the way of the good stuff and throw some double-standard speeches.

 

[!Blue!]

I too feel that Samus is underrated. Not great, just underrated. Kind of like pre-patch Mewtwo actually IMO. She just needs a couple important adjustments. I think if she had a way to kill confirm into Screw Attack like ZSS can with the boost kick, people wouldn't be trashing her so hard.

Though im not a samus main....have you tried falling upair that auto cancels to screw attack.

Lol nvm just saw someone said that

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I too feel that Samus is underrated. Not great, just underrated. Kind of like pre-patch Mewtwo actually IMO. She just needs a couple important adjustments. I think if she had a way to kill confirm into Screw Attack like ZSS can with the boost kick, people wouldn't be trashing her so hard.

It doesn't really help when you know that Samus has one of the worst offensive games of any fighter, and her mobility isn't very hot either.

 

[Sonicninja115]

As long as Garchomp can go underground I'm good.

RE: Tier list.
Japan is very different. Some of the placements are plain wrong, but others are according to their meta. And most of the CCI agreed that Metaknight might end up being top 5 material. Even the mains.

Re: Samus
And just take ZeRo's advice. Don't go to Duck Hunt.

@MewSquared Great! I am looking forward to seeing your Mewtwo then!

 

[meleebrawler]

It doesn't really help when you know that Samus has one of the worst offensive games of any fighter, and her mobility isn't very hot either.

See, even that aspect of her is better than it looks. At the very least when it comes to approaching and dealing damage, she's unquestionably better than these guys:

And debatably better or equal to: (default)

Her mobility, outside her fall speed is pretty much average (key point: unlike Mewtwo, Samus is heavy), and even has one of the best initial dashes in the game coupled with a great dash attack.

 

[Krysco]

Garchomp and Braixen are just meh to me. Not Pokemon I hate but not ones I care for either. Don't really care for the movie either (though on an M2 related note, I watched Mewtwo Returns last night.)

As for the tier list, I'm not knowledged enough to say who's too high or too low outside of gut feeling. It's not in order too. Cloud and Duck Hunt too high, Ike and Ness too low. Then again, I feel like Ike to NA is Duck Hunt to Japan. This really good character that the other region just doesn't understand (or the different meta influences their position.)

As for Samus in particular, she just...doesn't function the way she's supposed to in this game. From what I've read, she doesn't even make much use of her missiles. She's more of a spacer/cqc fighter than she is in other games. She'd be more campy based if her missiles weren't so bad. Same thing applies to Zelda and to a lesser extent Falco. They're both meant to force approaches but can't. At least Falco has a respectable cqc.

More positively, Mewtwo seems in a good spot.

 

[Aninymouse]

Braxien is cool. Would have never asked for it, but it looks like it's going to be cute and have a lot of attitude, so that should make it fun to watch.

Garchomp cannot be denied, apparently. It's cool. We needed a Ground and a proper Dragon, anyway. I have a feeling I'll really like its play style based on the pictures.

Regular Mewtwo looks fierce. I think it's the smaller eyes. It makes him look way more sinister, compared to the Smash Mewtwo. I dunno. I think I prefer Mewtwo with huge anime eyes. I'm glad he's in the game, at least! He better not be low tier, for ****'s sake...

And hey, we get another reveal tomorrow, too! Pretty nice.

 

[TailLover]

Braxien is cool. Would have never asked for it, but it looks like it's going to be cute and have a lot of attitude, so that should make it fun to watch.

Garchomp cannot be denied, apparently. It's cool. We needed a Ground and a proper Dragon, anyway. I have a feeling I'll really like its play style based on the pictures.

Regular Mewtwo looks fierce. I think it's the smaller eyes. It makes him look way more sinister, compared to the Smash Mewtwo. I dunno. I think I prefer Mewtwo with huge anime eyes. I'm glad he's in the game, at least! He better not be low tier, for ****'s sake...

And hey, we get another reveal tomorrow, too! Pretty nice.

one thing that disappointing me in Pokken is that Mewtwo's tail looks shorter and not as thick per say as it is in smash 4, which is rather disappointing to a tail lover like me. It's still a nice tail, but still a bit sad, that said I have 3 other pokemon with big tails now in this game this is really the last thing I can actually complain about.

 

[Sonicninja115]

one thing that disappointing me in Pokken is that Mewtwo's tail looks shorter and not as thick per say as it is in smash 4, which is rather disappointing to a tail lover like me. It's still a nice tail, but still a bit sad, that said I have 3 other pokemon with big tails now in this game this is really the last thing I can actually complain about.

doesn't Braixen have a tail?

 

[TailLover]

doesn't Braixen have a tail?

yeah, but those kinds of tails aren't really my preference, though it is still nice.

Anyway, to say something not related to my tail love, I played a friend online with Mewtwo and did well so I'm starting to feel more confident in Mewtwo, playing him online still sucks, but I want to make the Cloud/Mewtwo combo work and I don't get much offline opportunity so I have to make due with what I have.

 

[meleebrawler]

As for Samus in particular, she just...doesn't function the way she's supposed to in this game. From what I've read, she doesn't even make much use of her missiles. She's more of a spacer/cqc fighter than she is in other games. She'd be more campy based if her missiles weren't so bad. Same thing applies to Zelda and to a lesser extent Falco. They're both meant to force approaches but can't. At least Falco has a respectable cqc.

Where exactly is it said that the design intent behind Samus is to keep the opponent out at all costs?
Her trophies highlight her weaponry but it's not like Melee Zelda's trophy which all but states that it's better to be defensive and punish.

Missiles may not be good at keepaway, but the super ones still slow down the opponent and work as low-commitment landing traps (as opposed to charge shot), while the regular ones bait reactions from a distance, particularly against aerial opponents. Imagine if Mewtwo had a projectile to bait airdodges that didn't use up Shadow Ball's charge.

Other M pretty much served to establish that Samus isn't afraid of going CQC when necessary, and that (as well her design in general) is reflected in Smash 4.

Besides, if you still insist on playing a full keepaway game with Samus, that's what Relentless Missiles are for.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Abadango just posted a new tier list. Thoughts on Mewtwo's position or any others? Rows are not ordered.

Personally, I think that's about right for Mewtwo at the moment with a possible rise in the future. Still pretty early to tell. Way better than how people used to think of him.

I question his other positions though. I think Ike, DK, Link, Falco, Kirby, and WFT are too low. Jiggs is too high and should also be in E tier I think. DH is pretty high. I'm very surprised that Cloud is as high as he is right now, but he could potentially justify that with more time. I think he's very powerful.

Lucina's still way too low, I don't think people give her any fair credit. She's definitely not bottom 5 material PLUS she's not THAT different from Marth, so putting her a tier down just is foolish. There are other questionable placements, like MK & Cloud being top 5 when they seem more top 10/15, Roy is lower than he should be, Ike has been considered the best Fire Emblem choice, but is put lower than Robin here...I think I'ma just move on.

RIP Lucina ;-;

I'm fine with her being lower tier, makes her more of a unique choice, but she's definitely not that low.

Mewtwo: I felt him and Greninja still needed to be in the game, so this is nice to see.
Braxien: Surprising choice, especially another fire starter over a water starter or another grass starter, but hey, at least it's mid stage over final.
Garchomp: While I didn't think this would happen, I'm not really surprised either.

 

[U-Throw]

Mewtwo's cyan palette swap is my favorite.

Braixen is an odd choice for Pokkén Tournament, in my opinion, mostly because of the fact that she's a Stage 1 Pokémon. Delphox, as a Stage 2 Pokémon, seems like the more logical choice, in my opinion, although Delphox doesn't have the presence in the Pokémon anime that Braixen has. I suppose that would be the reason for her inclusion over Delphox. In any event, even though I don't really care for Braixen, she looks like she could be an interesting fighter, so I'm willing to give her a chance. Garchomp looks cool, as well. I mean, who doesn't love draconic land-sharks? Seriously, though, I think he'll be an interesting fighter, especially if he makes full use of his Ground-type side. And, finally, regular Mewtwo! I'm actually quite excited for him, even if he turns out to play identically to Shadow Mewtwo. I honestly thought that Shadow Mewtwo would be the only Mewtwo we got, so this is a quite a pleasant surprise for me! Hopefully, since Shadow Mewtwo looks like a souped-up Mega Mewtwo X, regular Mewtwo will Mega Evolve into Mega Mewtwo Y instead. That'd be nice. Now, I just need to figure out which version of Mewtwo I'm going to main...

As for the tier list, I don't feel like I'm at an adequate enough skill-level to make sound accusations, but I do feel like Lucina is too low, and, to a lesser extent, maybe Dr. Mario, as well. Mewtwo seems about right, though, so that's nice.

 

[Krysco]

Where exactly is it said that the design intent behind Samus is to keep the opponent out at all costs?
Her trophies highlight her weaponry but it's not like Melee Zelda's trophy which all but states that it's better to be defensive and punish.

Missiles may not be good at keepaway, but the super ones still slow down the opponent and work as low-commitment landing traps (as opposed to charge shot), while the regular ones bait reactions from a distance, particularly against aerial opponents. Imagine if Mewtwo had a projectile to bait airdodges that didn't use up Shadow Ball's charge.

Other M pretty much served to establish that Samus isn't afraid of going CQC when necessary, and that (as well her design in general) is reflected in Smash 4.

Besides, if you still insist on playing a full keepaway game with Samus, that's what Relentless Missiles are for.

Eh, mostly just the fact that she has two (three if you count both missiles separately) projectiles and in every game except Other M, she fights from far away with her arm cannon. Her moveset has hardly changed from what it first was in 64 which only had Metroid, Metroid II and Super Metroid to base a moveset off of.

Her frame data (I believe?) and moveset also don't lend themselves too well to cqc. Ftilt is weak up front and stronger at the foot, similar to all of Marth's attacks, jab is less reliable than other jabs, fsmashs sweetspot is at the tip, her grab being a tether which is better for grabbing those further away rather than up in your face.

I guess I'm spoiled by the fact that her missiles lagless landing allowed her to camp more effectively with them in previous games. They seem to serve a similar purpose to Din's Fire and Falco's Blaster, forcing approaches but they don't do that too well since they are so easy to block, avoid or outright destroy. Falco's in a similar situation since I'm spoiled by his lagless landing on Blaster. If they never had that in previous games, I'd look at them as less campy. Fox at least has the speed and lack of endlag on his Blaster to show that he's not campy.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Have you guys tried dtilt-empty hop-JC Usmash at the 100-110% range? It is a viable frame trap. I am going to look into it more, but it seems inescapable.

 

[Metallinatus]

Samus is not that Falcon "in your face" character, but she is definitely not a camper too.... at least not in Smash 4, her projectiles completely sucks on that regard. As you mentioned, she has some sweetspots on her tips, that's because she is a spacing character more than anything.... that and a bait a punish character too, just waiting for the opportunity to strike a Dash Attack/falling Up Air/Up Tilt that can lead to good damaging combos.

 

[420quickscoper]

Samus isn't that bad, but she isn't that good.

On the topic of Abadango's bottom characters, I disagree with Lucina being the worst character. But to be honest with you, I don't think that Lucina isn't bad, really. I feel that she's outclassed by Marth, she lacks results, and overall doesn't have many tools to work with. I think that Jigglypuff should take the number 1 spot for the worst, honestly. Zelda and Jigglypuff are top 2 worst for me. Zelda is basically a character with very few strengths and some glaring weaknesses, but I think Jigglypuff has slightly more strengths but a lot more weaknesses. He's not far off to that.

Roy being bottom 4? Have to disagree, Roy ain't that bad.

It seems like the characters with good spacing are being put up higher, which is an explanation why some rush down characters aren't very high. For Abadango, apparently, Mewtwo is number 24 in the game. Honestly, this would be my position for him - 24-21th spot. I think he's better than a LOT of characters.

 

[Deleted member]

You guys do realize that considering Aba is a Japanese player, his opinions or moreso based on the Japanese metagame (even if he still does go to American tournaments, my point still stands) most likely? It's why a lot of positions seem very whack to us, especially Lucina. Even then I don't understand when top players here in the US list her as bottom 10 or even worse bottom 5. A gorl with a frame 10 fsmash that kills most characters at the 60-70% range when near the ledge and is actually relatively safe on shield ain't bottom tier material, especially since she's gotten buffs in like almost every patch so far lol

 

[420quickscoper]

May not be the right place to say this, but I've been thinking about the Mewtwo vs Ryu matchup, and I think that Mewtwo does quite well against him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh cool, Garchomp in Pokken. I like Garchomp.

Lucina's still way too low, I don't think people give her any fair credit. She's definitely not bottom 5 material PLUS she's not THAT different from Marth, so putting her a tier down just is foolish. There are other questionable placements, like MK & Cloud being top 5 when they seem more top 10/15, Roy is lower than he should be, Ike has been considered the best Fire Emblem choice, but is put lower than Robin here...I think I'ma just move on.

I've been trying very hard to pick up Lucina as a secondary ever since Smash 4 came out, but the better at Smash I've gotten, the more underwhelming she seems. Her lack of a tipper really hurts her ability to edge guard, and I've found its significantly more difficult to get a kill with her than with Marth.

A skilled Marth shouldn't really have problems spacing the tipper most of the time, so the fact that Lucina doesn't have sour spots isn't a huge advantage either.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

So I missed a lot. Here's everything.

Garchomp? YES. Deserves a spot, especially after hiks starring role in the 2014 Championships.
Braixen? Well, it's unique. I guess I'll warm up to her like I did Corrin. Delphox would have been too slow, anyway.
Mewtwo? Looks like I'll really be getting into this game now...

Aba's tier list? Again, Japanese metagame is interesting. Seeing Ness so low and Pit so high... it's very interesting. Also, Cloud and MK for S tier? Nah. Cloud isn't without weaknesses, and MK still has his deficiencies in range. (Oh wait, he's an MK main. That explains that...)

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Oh cool, Garchomp in Pokken. I like Garchomp. I've been trying very hard to pick up Lucina as a secondary ever since Smash 4 came out, but the better at Smash I've gotten, the more underwhelming she seems. Her lack of a tipper really hurts her ability to edge guard, and I've found its significantly more difficult to get a kill with her than with Marth.

A skilled Marth shouldn't really have problems spacing the tipper most of the time, so the fact that Lucina doesn't have sour spots isn't a huge advantage either.

But she isn't Marth, you can play her as though she WAS Marth, or you could take advantage of her lack of sour/sweetspots and come up with different approaches Marth would suffer from. Either way, she's not far from Marth tierwise and she is definitely not one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[ZephyrZ]

But she isn't Marth, you can play her as though she WAS Marth, or you could take advantage of her lack of sour/sweetspots and come up with different approaches Marth would suffer from. Either way, she's not far from Marth tierwise and she is definitely not one of the worst characters in the game.

Well, what kind of approaches can she do that Marth can't? You say she isn't Marth, but she basically is. Literally the only difference is the tipper.

Lucina can't edge guard well, can't combo well, can't juggle well, has slow attacks and has a very weak neutral game. Her only advantage is her disjoints. Marth's only slightly better because his tipper ups his damage and KO power a bit, but he's not amazing either. Even if Lucina isn't the single worst in the game, she's got to be down in the lower tiers somewhere. She just has a lot of weakness and not a lot of strengths.

It's easy to say your character isn't that bad, because no character is absolutely horrible in Smash. But if there are Dedede mains, Zelda mains, Ganondorf mains, Samus mains, and Charizard mains all saying their character isn't the worst in the game...then who is?


....I feel like the bad guy here.

 

[Metallinatus]

Honestly, Lucina does more damage than Marth's sourspot in every move, and sometimes the sourspot's knockback can work better than the sweestpot's one, specially for building combos or strings, so that is an advantage Lucina has.... I guess.

 

[Krysco]

I swear I've seen every low tier be claimed to not be bottom 5 material even though someone has to be. At the very least, I've seen that said the least with Puff and Zelda. Here's my totally inexperienced belief of the bottom 5: and as much as I love him . If I were to do a bottom 10... and then it gets iffy. ? But tips.? Kill throw, combo throw, fast, not the worst recovery.? MLG, his mu vs Fox being decent and his frame data.? She can at least do what she's intended to do...it's just not that good.? Similar to Palu but she's basically been redesigned be it through changes in the character or changes players have made between games. Honestly, at least one of the Miis are probably somewhere in there but they hinge entirely on what is and isn't allowed for them plus they have the least developed meta.

As for Lucina, I don't believe there's a single move Marth has where he can get punished on hit for landing a move with a sour spot outside of like...dair, Dolphin Slash and maybe Dancing Blade? Latter being more so because people fall out of it than the sourspots. Lucina would be able to approach differently if she wasn't stuck with Marth's frame data. He's meant to be a fencer, keep people at his tipper range, his frame data works with that. Lucina doesn't care where she hits with her sword so long as she hits but she doesn't have even a single frame shaved off any attack to support a more aggressive playstyle. The lowered height is just insult to injury.

 

[Deleted member]

My Smash 4 weekly is this Saturday. I'm gonna pull out for the first time in tournament and see how it goes. If things get rough I'll switch to.

 

[Aninymouse]

May not be the right place to say this, but I've been thinking about the Mewtwo vs Ryu matchup, and I think that Mewtwo does quite well against him.

From what I've seen, yeah, Mewtwo does well against Ryu as long as you don't get Utilted... Shoryuken kills Mewtwo hella early.

I swear I've seen every low tier be claimed to not be bottom 5 material even though someone has to be. At the very least, I've seen that said the least with Puff and Zelda. Here's my totally inexperienced belief of the bottom 5: and as much as I love him . If I were to do a bottom 10... and then it gets iffy. ? But tips.? Kill throw, combo throw, fast, not the worst recovery.? MLG, his mu vs Fox being decent and his frame data.? She can at least do what she's intended to do...it's just not that good.? Similar to Palu but she's basically been redesigned be it through changes in the character or changes players have made between games. Honestly, at least one of the Miis are probably somewhere in there but they hinge entirely on what is and isn't allowed for them plus they have the least developed meta.

As for Lucina, I don't believe there's a single move Marth has where he can get punished on hit for landing a move with a sour spot outside of like...dair, Dolphin Slash and maybe Dancing Blade? Latter being more so because people fall out of it than the sourspots. Lucina would be able to approach differently if she wasn't stuck with Marth's frame data. He's meant to be a fencer, keep people at his tipper range, his frame data works with that. Lucina doesn't care where she hits with her sword so long as she hits but she doesn't have even a single frame shaved off any attack to support a more aggressive playstyle. The lowered height is just insult to injury.

I don't agree with your bottom 10 picks at all.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree with your bottom 10 picks at all.

I concur. Literally anybody who says Mac or Shulk is bottom 10 knows nothing about either characters, lmao. Mediocre, maybe. Bottom 10? I disagree.

And considering Marth, Charizard, Doc and Samus for bottom 10? bruh. Samus just got top 8 at a major this week. And it's good you didn't put Palutena there in the end, a player here in Central Florida is #1 on our PR and mains Palutena. His name is Prince Ramen.

As much as I'd want to disagree, I can see why you think Dedede is bottom 10.

 

[Aninymouse]

I concur. Literally anybody who says Mac or Shulk is bottom 10 knows nothing about either characters, lmao. Mediocre, maybe. Bottom 10? I disagree.

And considering Marth, Charizard, Doc and Samus for bottom 10? bruh. Samus just got top 8 at a major this week. And it's good you didn't put Palutena there in the end, a player here in Central Florida is #1 on our PR and mains Palutena. His name is Prince Ramen.

As much as I'd want to disagree, I can see why you think Dedede is bottom 10.

I used to think DeDeDe was botton 10. Then I found Girthquake. Now I'm a BeBeBeliever.

 

[Deleted member]

I used to think DeDeDe was botton 10. Then I found Girthquake. Now I'm a BeBeBeliever.

Girthquake is absolutely amazing. We can't forget Big D either.

A Dedede main actually got 33rd place at Dismantle 2, so I guess that's something. JUST ONE SPOT SHY OF TOP 32 DAMMIT.

 

[TailLover]

the problem with placing characters down there is that most of the characters in this game have good stuff to them, they all have things that they can do, and other than the clear top characters it's really hard to truly judge the bottom characters accuratly. They are mostly a huge pool of characters that no one knows the true power of really.

 

[Deleted member]

the problem with placing characters down there is that most of the characters in this game have good stuff to them, they all have things that they can do, and other than the clear top characters it's really hard to truly judge the bottom characters accuratly. They are mostly a huge pool of characters that no one knows the true power of really.

Exactly.

Exhibit A:

 

[TailLover]

Exactly.

Exhibit A:

another thing people need to realize is that even in a very balance game someone has to be the worst, that doesn't mean they can't do anything, they are just the worst in a balanced game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Eh, mostly just the fact that she has two (three if you count both missiles separately) projectiles and in every game except Other M, she fights from far away with her arm cannon. Her moveset has hardly changed from what it first was in 64 which only had Metroid, Metroid II and Super Metroid to base a moveset off of.

Her frame data (I believe?) and moveset also don't lend themselves too well to cqc. Ftilt is weak up front and stronger at the foot, similar to all of Marth's attacks, jab is less reliable than other jabs, fsmashs sweetspot is at the tip, her grab being a tether which is better for grabbing those further away rather than up in your face.

I guess I'm spoiled by the fact that her missiles lagless landing allowed her to camp more effectively with them in previous games. They seem to serve a similar purpose to Din's Fire and Falco's Blaster, forcing approaches but they don't do that too well since they are so easy to block, avoid or outright destroy. Falco's in a similar situation since I'm spoiled by his lagless landing on Blaster. If they never had that in previous games, I'd look at them as less campy. Fox at least has the speed and lack of endlag on his Blaster to show that he's not campy.

Didn't I just say the point of missiles is not to camp opponents out or force approaches? Like you said, the only reason they were decent for this in past games was due to missile cancelling. Here, you shoot them only when you see an opening, such as landing or dashing straight at you, like in the Metroid games where you don't shoot missiles willy-nilly (not until the end anyway) unless you know they'll hit and cause damage.

Compare that to Falco's Blaster, which is more difficult to react to and is transcendent too, so you'll almost always at least trade in ranged combat. Much better to use repeatedly from a distance.

Her moves also have very good startup in general (certainly better than Mewtwo's for the most part), including the oft-maligned jab. Only utilt and grab are really slow (but the former has good endlag making it pretty safe on shield). Fsmash is also pretty fast for how strong it can be (it's decently powerful even on sourspot). It's the endlag on the moves that leave her open if she's not precise.

Samus is not that Falcon "in your face" character, but she is definitely not a camper too.... at least not in Smash 4, her projectiles completely sucks on that regard. As you mentioned, she has some sweetspots on her tips, that's because she is a spacing character more than anything.... that and a bait a punish character too, just waiting for the opportunity to strike a Dash Attack/falling Up Air/Up Tilt that can lead to good damaging combos.

She's a lot like Mewtwo, except a bit more aggressive-minded in her spacing, mainly thanks to the better startup on most of her moves and Charge Shot (plus extra weight for a bit of a cushion against mistakes). Where Mewtwo dances around you poking now and then waiting for you to mess up, Samus relentlessly harasses you into making that mistake and seizes the opportunity with lightning speed.