Splitting at Smash Tourneys and ROM 5

[Deleted member]

Chibo..... proofread your posts. I had to read the original post like 4 times just to understand what you are talking about.

Everyone keeps saying splitting shouldn't happen and it needs to be stopped. None of those people are M2K or the people who split with him. M2K splits because he a fan of hedging his bets. He doesn't like to gamble with money he already has. He doesn't take big risks and nothing you do is really going to change that mentality. He is ALWAYS going to want to split when money is on the line. Forbidding splitting isn't going to change his mentality even if you force him to go against it.

From what I have seen, people are angry at splitting because it makes finals more trivial and the players won't take them seriously. The knee jerk reaction is to say "no splitting". However, if we start thinking of the problem as "boring grand finals" rather than "splitting is bad", I think we might have some more interesting solutions.

If you really want to avoid boring grand finals at your events, give the player an incentive to play out finals. You can have your cash prizes but it would be very difficult to avoid splitting even if it is strictly against the rules. Make that incentive something that can't be split. Money can always be split after the event and it would be impossible to enforce anyway.

You could consider a prize system add one or two dollars to the venue fee and get something the winner can take home. You could consider free entry/venue fee to the next tournament in the series for the winner. Even if the players split the winnings they will still at least play out the set to get the incentive.

This is an excellent point that rephrases something I've already brought up in reply to AZ. Here is my post:

Regarding splitting - if splitting did not effect the outcome of a match, people would not agree to do it before they play. In the same manner, when a splitting agreement occurs, it is done before the players actually have earned the money they are already divvying up. If the TO does not like his finals being a sham, I would simply recommended DQing the splitters and awarding the prize money by shifting placements upward.

Not necessarily. A GF is essentially an imbalanced risk/reward evaluation with diminishing returns. So let's say 1st and 2nd place would get $700 and $300 respectively, you can assume that you "already have" the $300 but have yet to gain the other $700. This is inherently risky. Because humans are naturally risk averse, it's better to "already have" $500 on a split than it is to have the base $300 "and maybe another $400". Not only that, but BOTH players are hedging against their possible losses. Unless you have a good reason to think that you can beat your opponent, or if for some reason you think that the potential for pride is worth the difference, it makes more financial sense to split. The first situation is rare at our biggest tournaments, and the second is an unlikely line of thought because it conflicts with that risk aversion. To be honest, it's amazing that splitting is done as little as it is, since it's better for both players do to it fairly often.

As far as I can tell, we might have to both ban splitting, and state that you do not have any winnings guaranteed until payout after the tournament completion. We can't enforce what people do with their money, but we can still use incentives to guide behavior.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The real issue isn't about spitting, but throwing matches in general.

Some people already said it. You can't control what people do with THEIR MONEY after the tourney, but you can ENFORCE RULES to make sure people are playing to their best ability during the tournament. If it's obvious that a person isn't playing their best at a finals unless they have a damn good reason, it's simple: They have to forfeit. Sounds harsh? Probably, but players have no reason to goof around when they are that close at getting a shot a winning a national. It's a slap in the face to people that tried their best and didn't make it to top 3 and the community/streamers/staff
/etc. This isn't on just on the Top three either. Everyone in the community needs to do their part to at least try to prevent this from happening again. How do you expect FGC to treat us better when we can't even take pride in our own game?

Better question- why do you care what some outgroup thinks of your community? These are people that still think our decision on what to do with items was a cause of controversy between "East Coast purists and West Coast item users," no matter what you tell them. People that rag on every game that isn't their own; whether it's Smash or Melty Blood, it's a joke compared to Marvel and Street Fighter.

Also enforcing "Play well or get kicked out of the tournament and shunned" wat.

 

[The___cheese]

I don't like splitting because it changes what the goal is, and leads to scarier thoughts.

The thing to worry more about imo is people purposely losing to get each other to the money spots. This most likely doesn't happen much, but it is a slippery slope.

On a side note, wow a lot of old faces in here.

 

[Europhoria]

If it's obvious that a person isn't playing their best at a finals unless they have a damn good reason, it's simple: They have to forfeit. It's a slap in the face to people that tried their best and didn't make it to top 3

Wait what? How would you plan to determine this and why do you think you have the right to do it at all? Because they didn't work hard to get their skill and achieve that placing? lol What would you do in place of the forfeit anyways? Have the losers of the last match take their place?

If people don't like the situation they should get better and beat the other players instead of posting about how lame they are.

 

[Dre89]

People are only obliged to play finals seriously if it's spectator sport.

'Spectator sport' doesn't just mean having spectators at the final, it means that money is being put into the game (therefore into the winner's pocket) by people who don't actually participate in the event.

Most smash tournaments aren't spectator sports because the money usually only comes from other players paying their entry fee for that event, which is technically paying a fee for a chance of winning a larger sum of money.

The only people who have the right to tell players how to play finals are companies who sponsor events, and/or contribute money in some other form apart from entering the event.

 

[unknown522]

^ I kinda like this post.

And for the guy who said that everyone dislikes splitting, aside from the 3 that split:

1. KK did not split

2. I did not ask to split and actually declined the split like 4 times before finally giving in

3. I did not offer to split in like over a year. I'm the one who gets asked usually. The only reason it was made public was because we were asked if we were splitting. If you wanted us to lie, then sure

 

[GimR]

People are only obliged to play finals seriously if it's spectator sport.

'Spectator sport' doesn't just mean having spectators at the final, it means that money is being put into the game (therefore into the winner's pocket) by people who don't actually participate in the event.

Most smash tournaments aren't spectator sports because the money usually only comes from other players paying their entry fee for that event, which is technically paying a fee for a chance of winning a larger sum of money.

The only people who have the right to tell players how to play finals are companies who sponsor events, and/or contribute money in some other form apart from entering the event.

what if the Tournament host hires a streamer to come to the event and stream? Wouldn't that count as the same thing? the TO and streamer put money into it to make this happen. In this case I lost $300


Edit: BTW, Unknown I did not say anything about the split. I'm not stupid enough to let it be known because that makes us look bad. The commentators realized it was happening and before I could get them to be quiet about it they started talking about it. At that point there was useless for me to stop them.

 

[TheTantalus]

I just read most of chibo's examples, and they are really poor

almost half of them are project:m tournaments, which technically isn't even a game

1 was a 10 man brawl tournament
1 split was 2 VA players who traveled all the way to mid NC and got the top 2 spots out of 25ish
1 was a decent sized melee tourney
3 or 4 of them were mid or low tier tournaments.

I don't mind seeing low tiers/P:M split out. But real tournies should be played out. Gonna need to find some better examples than that though.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol @ PM tourneys not being real tourneys

 

[Svetsunov]

I honestly don't give a crap about splitting as long as we still get real matches and it's kept relatively under the table. The knowledge of splitting really ruins the hype of a match(See ROM5) and Hype is important to the ssbm scene.

 

[PieDisliker]

I don't see anything wrong with splitting as long as it's kept under the table and it doesn't have an effect on GFs. It's their money, they decide what they want to do with it. Just don't tell anyone about it and work out the deal after the tourney. It's virtually the same that way.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I allow splitting in my events.

Both people earned their placing, and if they want to split their money, they can go ahead.
If first place won $50 and 2nd won $20, the top two entrants are garunteed either of those sums of money. If the split it to $40 and $40, fine by me. They both agreed, it's practically already their money in my book.

I like it better when they don't split, but idk.

 

[DYC]

I allow splitting in my events.

Both people earned their placing, and if they want to split their money, they can go ahead.
If first place won $50 and 2nd won $20, the top two entrants are garunteed either of those sums of money. If the split it to $40 and $40, fine by me. They both agreed, it's practically already their money in my book.

I like it better when they don't split, but idk.

Bump for splitting apparently creating more money at this guy's tournaments.

 

[Somaiah]

If it isn't a spectator sport, fine, split the money.

If it isn't against the rules, fine, do what you want.

If it wasn't about the money, fine, you played your best.

Where's the competitive spirit? The spectators and viewers weren't entitled to a good show, but you lot sure as hell didn't give them one (I was personally disappointed). Still, props to Jason for giving somewhat of a s***.