Spider-Manfia: (Game Over! Roles Posted)

[Kirby King]

Didn't think so, but Nick's explanation works I guess. I was wondering if someone in a scummasonry might have told him to daykill someone for fun, since I wasn't sure why a new player would do something like that unprompted.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Ok well looks like it was fake in that case

Unvote
Vote Nicolas


Call it OMGUS if you want, I think its sorta justified.

I won't blame you. I sorta regret doing the fake daykill... but I don't see how it exactly hurts the town. The only information it gives the mafia is that I can't daykill. However, you could say that it is bad taste. The reason I did it is because... well, I was curious to see what response I would get. (When it was done in Tommafia 2, it sparked a lot of discussion, and the target claimed to be bulletproof... but I believe he turned out to be mafia.) Well, I suppose in this case, I'm the one who ought to apologize.

 

[Handorin]

I'm still waiting on my answer from Nic. He seems to think a fake daykill is more helpful though.

 

[KevinM]

Also at Kiki if you want my real answer I don't think anyone is incredibly suspicious persay. No one worth a vote though.

If I'm gunning for anyone, it would be Marshy for his pseudo coasting when he's a lot better player then that.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I mean you can take this as a defense since OMG I'm one of the two torn between most people, but honestly right now its not scum hunting for a lot of people it's waaambulance play.

huh...thought i heard Frozenflame in here for a second

If I'm gunning for anyone, it would be Marshy for his pseudo coasting when he's a lot better player then that.

Marshy did this in HP mafia too, where he well..ended up as mafia. Actually, now that I think about it, the games that I've played with Marshy he's coasted through unnoticed.

 

[Nicholas1024]

You can be confusing and protown at the same time. At the same time, if I constantly change my playstyle, then if I AM a power role, how is mafia supposed to know. Also, if I am mafia, how is town supposed to know?



I can't accidentally make a joke. How else am I going to tease character roles and mafia stereo types.

Also, I address why I answered the way I did earlier. +The questions weren't really asked of me. I guess you could say it might be one part of my playstyle.

See above for why you want to be hard to read. Wouldn't you say Tom is also hard to read, except he has the same playstyle each time.

Also, how exactly how have I been "unhelpful"? Other than being slightly confusing at times.
What have YOU done more to help?

I don't mind you making a joke. I just think that there's a point where its time to become serious. Also... it would be best if you just tried to be helpful in discussions. Changing your playstyle to make yourself hard-to-read does not help us in an way. Besides, unless you specifically stated "Hey guys, I'm the (insert power role here)", or heavily implied that, then how would mafia know if you were a a power role? (especially on D1, when you have no more information than the rest of us and no night abilities have been used) I mean, being evasive in your questions implies that you are evading questions because you have something to hide. True, the questions weren't asked of you, but you still admitted to answering them evasively.

Finally... as to you being unhelpful. This is because you have been confusing over semantics at the beginning, and have been somewhat evasive since.

As to what more I've done to help...

I've done everything I could to spark discussion, help it along, and reveal mafia. I also given out several times my reads on certain players, and been as open and transparent as possible without revealing my role. I think I'll appeal to the crowd here. Who's been more helpful so far, me or Handorin?

 

[Rockin]

Who's been more helpful so far, me or Handorin?

I'm gonna say Handorin cause he didn't scare us with a fake daykill ability.

Vote: Nicholas

It's all fine and dandy that You're trying to spark discussion or trying out new stuff, but if you're gonna keep doing crap like that, you're just gonna hurt down, whether you like it or not. Seriously, I feel you're not taking this discussion in seriousness.

So unless you want to get lynch, Knock it off.

 

[Handorin]

I don't mind you making a joke. I just think that there's a point where its time to become serious. Also... it would be best if you just tried to be helpful in discussions. Changing your playstyle to make yourself hard-to-read does not help us in an way. Besides, unless you specifically stated "Hey guys, I'm the (insert power role here)", or heavily implied that, then how would mafia know if you were a a power role? (especially on D1, when you have no more information than the rest of us and no night abilities have been used) I mean, being evasive in your questions implies that you are evading questions because you have something to hide. True, the questions weren't asked of you, but you still admitted to answering them evasively.

Have you read any of the other posts I made? I clearly state why it is a good idea to be hard to read even if you are town. +If you are hard to read, then you have a better chance at winning at mafia (and don't get all sad when mafia win. This game isn't all about town).
Over a period of time, most people tend to do certain things as certain types of role. If you eliminate it, then you live longer (in terms of night kills).

Finally... as to you being unhelpful. This is because you have been confusing over semantics at the beginning, and have been somewhat evasive since.

Honestly, no one cares. It was a joke. It was not helpful. I can not think of a reason why it would be. The way you word it is the MAIN reason why I am 'unhelpful'. I agree, I have been somewhat evasive.

Now I want you to go back, find bits of posts where you think I was intentionally evasive, quote it, and state why YOU think I might have been evasive.

As to what more I've done to help...

I've done everything I could to spark discussion, help it along, and reveal mafia. I also given out several times my reads on certain players, and been as open and transparent as possible without revealing my role. I think I'll appeal to the crowd here. Who's been more helpful so far, me or Handorin?[/QUOTE]

I think the only bit where you 'sparked' discussion was your fake daykill. Most of your other posts are game questions, answering questions, restating something, johns.

 

[Evil Eye]

No Good Spidey-Lovers:




junglefever (1): Handorin

Eor (1): Tom

KevinM (1): Kirby King

Handorin (1): Nicholas1024

Nicholas1024 (2): KevinM, Rockin

With 17, it takes 9 to lynch!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Firstly: Go to sleep Evil Eye.

Secondly: I don't understand why people are finding Nicnasty scummy enough to vote for. I'm not very good at reading people but Nicholas has yet to do anything suspicious in my eyes. He has been incredibly open and it looks as though he is actually trying hard to catch scum. I mean, if I was a new player and mafia, I don't think I would post as much as he has been or attempting to make conversation invoking posts. It would be alot easier for a new player to just coast/lurk especially if they are worried about everything they say. Nicko over here has put his thoughts out there and has been atleast trying to contribute more than atleast half the players so far. His logic/thinking may be faulty at times, but what more do you expect from a new player. Also, if he continues to post as much as he does, and is scum, than I am certain he will mess up and be caught, especially since he lacks experience. [No offense]

I also don't see how his daykill thing was scummy. I mean I can't really think of many situations where something like that[fake/joke daykilling] would hurt town.

I just want people who are voting/fosing him to explain where they are coming from because I am not seeing it.

 

[Nicholas1024]

1. Does anything strike you as suspicious or comment-worthy about Eor?

2. Does anything strike you as suspicious or comment-worthy about Handorin?

3. What advice do you have to give to the new players like Nick? Is there anything you wish you had been told before your first game, TMNT Mafia?

4. What about Mex who has played 1 game before as scum in Tomafia 3? Do you have any advice for him?

5. What about Sharpevil, who is adjusting to a new style of play?

6. What do you think about a Day 1 No Lynch? Why is it an acceptable solution, or why should we try to avoid it?

7. Do you think someone with a one-shot power should use it now, when there are a lot of players alive and a good potential to live through the night with their results, or later when there are less players so a better chance of getting a worthwhile result while running the risk of dying between now and then?

8. What do you think about a mass roleclaim?

9. Do you think Macman is suspicious at all for voting me and putting me at L-5, with a possible but unprobable executioner?

10. If you had to choose between killing Yaya or Rockin right now, which would you kill? Why A and why not B?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I will go ahead and answer.

1. That guy is always mafia.
2. Rule #1. Hard to tell for sure though, he likes changing playstyles.
3. I wish I was told that games like Hellhouse are uncommon and are much more simple. Also, I wasnt in TMNT. Sounded fun though >______________>
4. I don't know who Mex is. But I will tell MexicanBJ to take things on a post by post basis. What he posted, where he posted it in conjunction with others, and why he posted it.
5. Since he has only made 2 game posts, I have been largely unaware of him. But I would say throw all of that experience out the window except the detective part. Then work on that.
6. I think it put's us in a dangerous situation in terms of numbers. Even numbers aren't great for us to be on, so we have to hope there isnt a SK. If there is, we hope a bp is hit.
7. DO IT DOC, DO IT.

Spoiler

If we NL

8. Not now.
9. No. Mainly because I was pretty much clueless there was such a thing as an executioner, though I am not surprised.
10. Yaya. He is less active in general.

Now I want you (Tom) to answer the same questions.



Sorry, Joker is in Batman, not Spiderman.

I regarded my playstyle above.
I wouldn't say I'm a clown in real life. Ask Tom though.

So, here's question by question
1: No useful information given. "That guy is always mafia" hardly helps us out.
2: Admittedly, you couldn't really give any info on this one.
3: No advice given, you simply remarked about not being in TMNT mafia.
4: Another joke, along with the advice to take things one post at a time.
5: Normal advice. Solid, but nothing special.
6: I thought we'd agreed that no-lynch is BAD. Especially with all this nice discussion to work with. (There was a fair bit of it before you made the above post.) Admittedly, you were against it, but not firmly. I wouldn't consider a no-lynch at this point.
7: I'm curious to what you would think if that "power" was a one-time daykill...
8: You'd answer this way even if you were scum, nobody wants a mass-roleclaim this early, and standing up for it could make you suspicious.
9: Agreed.
10: Killing off players on the basis of inactivity isn't usually the best idea. However, neither had said much of anything to go on.

So, to summarize, out of 10 questions, you gave nothing useful on 1 and 3, basic advice on 4,5. Couldn't give advice on 2, gave advice on #6 that I disagree with (I wouldn't even consider a no-lynch at this point.) Your advice on #7 I also disagree with, I think you should save it until you get a scum-tell, and use it then. Your answer to #8 is basic stuff, saying otherwise could make you suspicious, we agree on #9, and on #10 its basically flipping a coin.

Also, when have you really given your opinion on a player? Could you quote a post to show me where? That's what I think is really useful. You've been using humor as a facade, so you can dodge some of the questions. There is a time to be serious, and we have reached it. I think you've been using humor to be evasive to try to avoid leaving tells so people won't recognize you as MAFIA.

As to your most recent post...

On being hard-to-read. This is not equal to being evasive. If you want to be "hard to read", then answer questions straight up, just like if you were town. Take a page out of Tom's book. (note: I was incorrect in blasting you for being "hard to read" in my last post. I should have blasted you for being evasive, and using that as an excuse for being "hard to read".)

I've raised ideas several times. They have helped spark discussion. I've repeatedly given my opinion on the most suspicious players, along with several others that have been more "under the radar", as you put it. As to a lot of my posts being about game questions, answering questions... what's wrong with asking questions, and isn't answering questions a helpful and (depending on the question type) pro-town thing to do? Also, although I have restated things on occasion, this helps to reinforce the point, and state that I agree with said opinion. Finally, I have not been johning in my posts. I defy you to point out where I have "johned".


You've been twisting my words, and misrepresenting my posts. I've had enough, and I'm pushing for your lynch, NOW!

Unvote
Vote Handorin

Just to drive the point home.


@Rockin

Seriously, how does my fake daykill hurt the town? I mean really... Give my information on why it hurts. All the new information that I've given the mafia is that I can't daykill. The town now knows that as well. So, why does it hurt the town? I was fishing for reactions with it. (And I'd say I've gotten some.)

 

[Handorin]

First of all, gratz on prompting what I believe is my longest post ever in mafia (despite most of it being quotes).
I'll delete parts I'm not responding to.

3: No advice given, you simply remarked about not being in TMNT mafia.
6: I thought we'd agreed that no-lynch is BAD. Especially with all this nice discussion to work with. (There was a fair bit of it before you made the above post.) Admittedly, you were against it, but not firmly. I wouldn't consider a no-lynch at this point.
7: I'm curious to what you would think if that "power" was a one-time daykill...
10: Killing off players on the basis of inactivity isn't usually the best idea. However, neither had said much of anything to go on.

ACTUALLY, on No. 3 I did answer part of the question. Actually, kinda. I misread it as after my first game. But Hellhouse had a lot of people and very unique roles. It was very unique and slightly through off my perception of mafia game at the beginning.

I'm not sure how you got how I wasn't firmly in the slightest from my response on No. 6. I brought up that we don't want to because the longer we stay on even numbers, the worse it us for us. The only point you might get confused is the next question where I say "if we NL", which is a viable option even if we don't like it. It has happened before. That is why I brought it up.

I thought it was obvious that Tom meant night action, but I guess not. But using a one time day kill is like signing a death sentence: One, town might lynch you. Two, mafia will shoot you because Vigs usually still have night kills and... Thress, doc won't be there to protect you more than likely.

If we don't kill inactives, then mafia won't. They do not help town at all, and give mafia an easy scape goat or allow them to easily manipulate them.

So, to summarize, out of 10 questions, you gave nothing useful on 1 and 3, basic advice on 4,5. Couldn't give advice on 2, gave advice on #6 that I disagree with (I wouldn't even consider a no-lynch at this point.) Your advice on #7 I also disagree with, I think you should save it until you get a scum-tell, and use it then. Your answer to #8 is basic stuff, saying otherwise could make you suspicious, we agree on #9, and on #10 its basically flipping a coin.

Blah Blah. Proved most of it wrong above. Although on #7, obviously you don't do it randomly. You assume I did, and I bet you assumed Tom meant random. So while you say you disagree with me, you agree. What if you get that scum tell Day/Night 1? Would you still use it?

Also, when have you really given your opinion on a player? Could you quote a post to show me where? That's what I think is really useful. You've been using humor as a facade, so you can dodge some of the questions. There is a time to be serious, and we have reached it. I think you've been using humor to be evasive to try to avoid leaving tells so people won't recognize you as MAFIA.

I will exclude you.

So I feel these two people have been flying under the radar:
King Kirby and Circus Rhymes with Jerkus

@Tom, Jungle, Nic, and MBJ:
What do you think of them so far?
Has there been anything that has caught your eye?

Semi-opinion here. I shouldn't have to explain more when my real intent was to ask questions and get responses I still have NOT received other than jungle (and an acceptable one from you). I will address this again at the end of this.

And...that's it really, just skimming my posts. All my other posts answer questions, asks questions, or focus on game mechanics (which I think is more important than most think).
Also...

As to your most recent post...
On being hard-to-read. This is not equal to being evasive. If you want to be "hard to read", then answer questions straight up, just like if you were town. Take a page out of Tom's book. (note: I was incorrect in blasting you for being "hard to read" in my last post. I should have blasted you for being evasive, and using that as an excuse for being "hard to read".)

You're fault.
Also, Tom is more of a pressure, asking question, type of guy. He has yet to answer my question to him.

I've raised ideas several times. They have helped spark discussion. I've repeatedly given my opinion on the most suspicious players, along with several others that have been more "under the radar", as you put it.

List of examples (excluding me):

Well, its nearly a given that most (and perhaps all, who knows?) of the votes weren't real, but still, 4 joke votes on the same character is against the odds.

For example, Macman did a 4th vote on Tom after it was pointed out that Tom had a lot of votes on him for this early in the game. (Mentosman8 pointed that out and voted Macman) Also, after I unvoted Tom, Macman posted "Don't let him scare you Nicholas". This line of reasoning might lead to a dead end, but its as good of a way to start as any other I can think of. Does anyone have a better idea to pursue?

I voted Handorin, because Medi made some points about his line of reasoning, which still doesn't make sense to me. I had thought that we were getting serious at the time, and so assumed that Medi's vote was serious, as was the post that Handorin made. (Don't mafia members try to raise confusion?) However, it seems that I was premature in assuming that the joke phase was over. Well....
Unvote

I hadn't seen that, but rereading the posts, I agree that Kirby King seemed to go on the defensive.

However, I'm torn at this point between voting for KevinM, and Handorin. Both have seemed suspicious. KevinM put a vote on MexicanBJ for no reason (besides an unsupported "I think your scum") and expected a meaningful response, while Handorin has been unhelpful... Well,

Vote Handorin

I believe that vote is being used to prod Eor to answer his question. (Which I've forgotten by now... )

On other matters... I see suspicion indicators on both Mexican and KevinM. The main indicators of suspicion in my mind for MexicanBJ is that he hasn't been helpful despite posting a lot, and he said (post 119) that he thinks the scumhunt is impossible at this point, and anyone who thinks otherwise is being naive. He seems to have no desire to scumhunt or help the town. If I had to guess, I'd say he's independent.

As for KevinM, I can guess why he voted for Mexican at this point, but just giving a vote, and no reason, and expecting Mexican to give some meaningful response really just doesn't seem logical. Also, he hasn't been exactly helpful either, besides harping on people to stop commenting on Tom's black font.

As for a few other people...

Tom: Has been logical, helpful, and discussion provoking the entire game. No suspicion.
Handorin: That bit where he was confusing about semantics (which he later admitted he did on purpose) raises suspicion. He also carried the joking too far into D1 (in my opinion) He hasn't been too terribly helpful either.
Junglefever: Has not given me any reason for suspicion as of yet.

That's my analysis so far. Comments anyone?

Ok, that pretty much sums it up. 4 of 28 posts. One of which was really any good. Other than a couple weak posts on me and Kevin, it was a different person each time. Remind me how this is repeatedly? Also, you never properly answered my question. Flying under the radar means being present but not entirely visable (aka, posting, but no one has seemed to take notice of them much).

As to a lot of my posts being about game questions, answering questions... what's wrong with asking questions, and isn't answering questions a helpful and (depending on the question type) pro-town thing to do?

Nothing. It's good you did. I was just listing stuff you did in general. But obviously helping people understand game terms or mechanics is antitown.

Also, although I have restated things on occasion, this helps to reinforce the point, and state that I agree with said opinion.

After 2 MAYBE 3 times something is stated, it gets old. We don't really need 50 people saying "I agree it is bad to NL", "I also think....", or the worse is just a simple "I agree with *person*" (No differences)

Finally, I have not been johning in my posts. I defy you to point out where I have "johned".

Ok.

Wow. I took so long to post that no less than 3 people did a ninja on me...

I knew I forgot something...

Well, I'm out of ideas.

Vote me
Because I haven't come up with something useful yet.

Well, it was my normal reaction. You vote me, I vote you. I am new to this after all. So.... now what?

Unvote Tom

You've been twisting my words, and misrepresenting my posts. I've had enough, and I'm pushing for your lynch, NOW!

Unvote
Vote Handorin

Just to drive the point home.

No u.



@Tom, MBJ, and....Nic (I want a proper answer no johns I clarified what I meant)
I'm still waiting on answers

So I feel these two people have been flying under the radar:
King Kirby and Circus Rhymes with Jerkus

@Tom, Jungle, Nic, and MBJ:
What do you think of them so far?
Has there been anything that has caught your eye?

 

[Kirby King]

+If you are hard to read, then you have a better chance at winning at mafia (and don't get all sad when mafia win. This game isn't all about town).

Wrong. This game is about winning, so yes, this game is all about town--unless, well, you're not town. You're advocating being suspicious just to prolong your own life. That's not a pro-town mentality, it's pro-Handorin.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Define what you mean by "john". I thought it meant complaining and making unneeded excuses.

 

[Handorin]

Wrong. This game is about winning, so yes, this game is all about town--unless, well, you're not town. You're advocating being suspicious just to prolong your own life. That's not a pro-town mentality, it's pro-Handorin.

No, I'm advocating being hard to read, which does not equate to being suspicious. If it comes around to being a biproduct, then it's something people might need to take a second glance at.

If I played like this as a power role, do you think mafia would kill me? Nah. Especially since they can't tell if I'm doing the same thing I did last time I was a power role.

@Nic- Yes, Johning does mean you are making excuses.

 

[Circus]

Very strange. Did any of the following set off scum bells in anyone else's ears (I noticed Kiki posted in response to some of this, but he doesn't seem quite as up-in-arms about it as I am)?

Have you read any of the other posts I made? I clearly state why it is a good idea to be hard to read even if you are town. +If you are hard to read, then you have a better chance at winning at mafia (and don't get all sad when mafia win. This game isn't all about town).
Over a period of time, most people tend to do certain things as certain types of role. If you eliminate it, then you live longer (in terms of night kills).

Emphasis mine.
If you ARE town, then you should be treating this game as if it IS all about town, because that's how you win. For a townie, it's not about living as long as possible (though it helps if you don't die), it's about HELPING YOUR SIDE WIN, whether you live or not. As a townie, the prospect of a mafia win should not be acceptable to you. This whole paragraph implies that you care much more about your own life than meeting the town's win condition, but the bolded part specifically implies that you actually don't even care if the town meets it's win condition at all.

This brings me back to a post you made a little earlier.

You can be confusing and protown at the same time. At the same time, if I constantly change my playstyle, then if I AM a power role, how is mafia supposed to know. Also, if I am mafia, how is town supposed to know?

Emphasis mine (again).
Did you just overtly state that you are intentionally playing so that if you are mafia it's harder for the town to know? Because if you're town, you shouldn't even have to present the option.

See above for why you want to be hard to read. Wouldn't you say Tom is also hard to read, except he has the same playstyle each time.

Tom is also hard to read, but in completely the opposite way that you are. Tom is usually so active and townie-looking that he just fools people into trusting him when he's actually mafia. You, on the other hand, flat-out say "hey maybe I'm town or am i deal with it" in hopes that you're just too much of an enigma for anyone to want to risk killing you. I don't like when I see people only thinking of themselves rather than the town as a whole. It is anti-town behavior.

Decision made. Vote: Handorin

Also, you didn't answer the second half of my question:

Would I be correct in believing that Sharpevil, Rockin, Marshy, Yaya, and Redcell are "on" your radar then? If so, what do you have to say about them? If not, why did you only mention that Kiki and I were under your radar?

One last thing.

If I played like this as a power role, do you think mafia would kill me? Nah. Especially since they can't tell if I'm doing the same thing I did last time I was a power role.

If the mafia has any reason not to kill you, it's because you've made yourself very hard for the town to trust, not because they're unsure of whether or not you have a power role.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Well then, if johns = excuses...

Wow. I took so long to post that no less than 3 people did a ninja on me...

This is a comment that I took so long to post, that 3 different people ninja'd me. This isn't an excuse.

I knew I forgot something...

This isn't an excuse either. It's one of those "I shouldn't have forgotten that." comments.

Well, I'm out of ideas.

Vote me
Because I haven't come up with something useful yet.

This is a joke vote. How is this an excuse

Well, it was my normal reaction. You vote me, I vote you. I am new to this after all. So.... now what?

Unvote Tom

I was asked why I voted for Tom. This is my answer. Again, not an excuse.


So, I fail to see where I've "johned".

 

[Kirby King]

Very strange. Did any of the following set off scum bells in anyone else's ears (I noticed Kiki posted in response to some of this, but he doesn't seem quite as up-in-arms about it as I am)?

To be honest I heard indy bells more than I heard scum bells. If Hando's scum he has no reason to garner so much suspicion from town--that's a self-preservation instinct against scum so he doesn't get nightkilled. If he just wanted to not get lynched (like if he's scum) he could easily have just talked a lot less and drawn less attention to himself.

 

[Evil Eye]

No Good Spidey-Lovers:




junglefever (1): Handorin

Eor (1): Tom

KevinM (1): Kirby King

Handorin (2): Nicholas1024, Nothing Rhymes With Circus

Nicholas1024 (2): KevinM, Rockin

With 17, it takes 9 to lynch!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

To be honest I heard indy bells more than I heard scum bells. If Hando's scum he has no reason to garner so much suspicion from town--that's a self-preservation instinct against scum so he doesn't get nightkilled. If he just wanted to not get lynched (like if he's scum) he could easily have just talked a lot less and drawn less attention to himself.

This. This exactly what I was thinking when I read all this. It seems to me that he is trying to tell us that he's trying to hide it from everyone, town and mafia.


On a flip note however, usually most indy's (...a not idiotic one anyway) would try to side with the town, and it shouldn't really be that hard for them, as they do not have any communication with the mafia members. So I have actually no ****ing idea what Handorin was trying to express other than it seems like every man for himself.

FOS: Handorin

I don't want to vote him because I'd rather find scum tell then indy tell, but if we have to choose (and we have 10 days to find more) than this will eventually become my vote.

 

[Rockin]

@Rockin

Seriously, how does my fake daykill hurt the town? I mean really... Give my information on why it hurts. All the new information that I've given the mafia is that I can't daykill. The town now knows that as well. So, why does it hurt the town? I was fishing for reactions with it. (And I'd say I've gotten some.)

You shouldn't be even faking a daykill, let alone let Mafia know what you have. We are Town. We should stick together and keep all kinds of PRs concealed until the time is needed to reveal it to the group. What if someone thought you had a Vig pr? What if for some gay reason that KevinM actually died right there, how would you explain yourself? 'Oh, it wasn't me! I don't have a vig power role.' What's your proof? And so what if you just gave them a false pr. Mafia would just check that off the list and may figure out the possible power role you got.

Don't go for an reaction like that next time. It could backlash on you in the worst way.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Also nicholas the only reactions you've gotten is that you're an idiot for pulling something like that. i don't think that's what you were looking for.

 

[MexicanBJ]

ok, on the fake day kill:

1. i agree with nick in that it doesn't actually hurt the town THAT much, as it only gives away that he can not actually day kill

2. i agree with jungle. you really haven't gotten that much of a positive response (positive meaning useful for scumhunting) people are pretty much annoyed at you, which isn't necessarily horrible i guess

@ handorin's question about KK and Circus:

i find KK pretty suspicious now that you mention it. he posts semi-often but not really of much substance

yes Circus has also been under the radar and i definitely think he needs to post more but i'm not that suspicious of him right now

finally, i am starting to get pretty suspicious of handorin too. yes, it makes sense that if he were mafia he wouldn't want to bring so much attention to himself, but i also think he's being a little too defensive

and despite his HUGE post, im not sure he actually answers everything nick says

so like jungle: FOS: Handorin

this could turn into a vote but he has the most currently and i dont want to escalate anything

 

[MexicanBJ]

i fail FOS: Handorin

 

[Handorin]

Emphasis mine.
If you ARE town, then you should be treating this game as if it IS all about town, because that's how you win. For a townie, it's not about living as long as possible (though it helps if you don't die), it's about HELPING YOUR SIDE WIN, whether you live or not. As a townie, the prospect of a mafia win should not be acceptable to you. This whole paragraph implies that you care much more about your own life than meeting the town's win condition, but the bolded part specifically implies that you actually don't even care if the town meets it's win condition at all.

Emphasis mine (again).
Did you just overtly state that you are intentionally playing so that if you are mafia it's harder for the town to know? Because if you're town, you shouldn't even have to present the option.

That paragraph doesn't even mention me living as long as I can. No, it isn't all about town. But since you brought the subject, the longer you live, the longer you can help. So if you are a power role (in which I have said a lot -_-) you WANT TO be hard to read as I have stated many times. There are different ways to do that. Welcome to my style of changing styles.

Yes, basically. I'm giving a good general way to win as any role. As such, it is proper to mention every possibility. I'm tired when I see (more elsewhere than SB) people cry that "so and so hammered wrong and caused town the game. Ban him/her for throwing the game." No, it's more of mafia played a good game like they were supposed to.

If people treat as a town deserving game, then there is only so far you can go. When you are town, you will be hard pressed to know who is mafia if you don't know how a mafia will act or what they will say. If you can learn to think like the mafia, it is easier to outsmart them. The same goes for being mafia, what would you do as town? Always look at both sides of the argument.

Decision made. Vote: Handorin

All going as planned.

Also, you didn't answer the second half of my question:

Really? Even after me explaining the meaning at least TWICE you haven't figured it out. You two are NOT ON my radar, you were FLYING UNDER everyone's radar. Take a look at it and you will find an answer. If you can't find it, go look for my other explanations. You have obviously been skimming my posts only after what you posted. (Looks like Mex got it)

One last thing.
If the mafia has any reason not to kill you, it's because you've made yourself very hard for the town to trust, not because they're unsure of whether or not you have a power role.

Nooooooooooooow let's take a trip down memory lane back to junior high school where it all began where Nic couldn't take a joke. And then all this went down. So whose fault is it really? I'll answer the question this time. Not mine -_- I state the unbiased facts, and especially on my favorite topic of mechanics.

Well then, if johns = excuses...

This is a comment that I took so long to post, that 3 different people ninja'd me. This isn't an excuse.

This isn't an excuse either. It's one of those "I shouldn't have forgotten that." comments.

This is a joke vote. How is this an excuse

I was asked why I voted for Tom. This is my answer. Again, not an excuse.

So, I fail to see where I've "johned".

Well, technically they are. On the last two quotes, look at the last two sentences. It's like saying "Sorry I'm late, a hit every red light." That's an excuse john.

 

[MexicanBJ]

this might just be me, but handorin's argument dont exactly make sense. he seems more intent on ****** every one of Nick's points, which to me seems really defensive and anti-town

so for now: Vote: Handorin

 

[Handorin]

Also, I might add, you can make it hard to read your self, but drop tells different of what you are. Like...you are bomb, but you drop cop tells. You are making yourself hard to read as a bomb and help the town out at the same time.

this might just be me, but handorin's argument dont exactly make sense. he seems more intent on ****** every one of Nick's points, which to me seems really defensive and anti-town

so for now: Vote: Handorin

Well duh. You want me to be not defensive and even more evasive? Then I'll look oh so more scummy.

Also, the last post was in regard to Circus.

Except the part where Nic doesn't fully grasp what I mean by john. I'm just taking everything down to a simple part. I broke down what he did in a list, he was like "LOL WHERE DID I JOHN?" And I told him some posts I thought were johns (however simple it might be)

 

[Kirby King]

Also, I might add, you can make it hard to read your self, but drop tells different of what you are. Like...you are bomb, but you drop cop tells. You are making yourself hard to read as a bomb and help the town out at the same time.

You also make yourself look uber suspicious to the real cop. I don't see why that's helpful.

 

[Handorin]

You also make yourself look uber suspicious to the real cop. I don't see why that's helpful.

Because when you are shot by mafia, you go boom and take one of them out.

And if cop investigates you, then he gets an inno. So the only option left is he's a godfather or indy (depending how the GM decides to give reports on indies)

 

[Eor]

this might just be me, but handorin's argument dont exactly make sense. he seems more intent on ****** every one of Nick's points, which to me seems really defensive and anti-town

so for now: Vote: Handorin

Wait, since when is being defensive anti-town? How is trying to make sure you don't die a bad thing for the town?

 

[Nicholas1024]

Yes, and if the cop investigates you because of you being suspicious, then that's one investigation that could have been used somewhere else. Also, he might counter-claim you, beliving you to be mafia, and then everyone loses. I think the risks WAY outweigh the benefits. Bad idea.

 

[Kirby King]

Okay, so that's potentially useful... if you're a bomb. If you're something that doesn't kill anyone who tries to kill you (i.e. most roles) your example is markedly less applicable.

And you're still robbing the cop of a legitimate investigation. Why would you try to get the cop to investigate you? How does that benefit the town more than the cop investigating someone else who's suspicious, and possibly getting a guilty? What if the cop simply reasons that you're probably lying since, well, he's the cop? (And yeah you can have multiple cops and different sanities, but not all players will reach that conclusion.) Plus if it looks like you're claiming cop, the real cop might simply be compelled to counterclaim you--again, maybe not the smartest play, but definitely within the realm of possibility.

You're doing things that are suspicious and trying to justify them as pro-town. At best you're distracting the town from looking at other suspects and at worst you're scum (or independent).

 

[Nicholas1024]

Wow. A double ninja!

 

[tmw_redcell]

Decision made. Vote: Handorin

All going as planned.

Why did you say that, Handorin? If you're going for what I think you are, then saying this runs counter to it, and if you don't have a better explanation than what I can think of, then you're not going for what I think you are and are just putting on the show of it.

Also, I might add, you can make it hard to read your self, but drop tells different of what you are. Like...you are bomb, but you drop cop tells. You are making yourself hard to read as a bomb and help the town out at the same time.

This however I think is a reasonable thing to say and is not something to jump all over. It might not be the best example, but pretending to have a role you don't can definitely be pro-town. A better example than the bomb might be, if you're vanilla then you'd give hints that you're the doctor, so the mafia kills/roleblocks/whatevers you instead of whoever the real doctor is. It's not perfect since again, the real doc would be suspicious of it and might think it's a mafia either setting up a fakeclaim to draw out the real doctor, but the goal is to do it so that the doctor can do his thing while the mafia wastes a kill on you instead of a power role or wastes their roleblock on you, which would be overall pro-town if done right with the trade-off of the doc being suspicious of you. Part of the strategy relies on the actual doc not outing himself just because someone else is making doc hints that other plays (hopefully the mafia) would pick up on.

 

[Circus]

To be honest I heard indy bells more than I heard scum bells. If Hando's scum he has no reason to garner so much suspicion from town--that's a self-preservation instinct against scum so he doesn't get nightkilled.

As I was writing (and re-writing and re-writing) my response to Handorin, I was hearing indie bells too. However, indie bells and scum bells both hurt my ears, so I don't really care which ones he's ringing louder. Self-preservation is certainly more indicative of an independent than someone in a scummasonry, but I would think a member of the mafia would be likely to show similar characteristics if badgered enough, since one lynched mafioso is a bigger blow to their side than one dead townie is to ours. I would still expect a singular mafioso to be much more desperate to stay alive than a single townie. Though I guess I haven't actually seen any precedent of this myself.

If he just wanted to not get lynched (like if he's scum) he could easily have just talked a lot less and drawn less attention to himself.

But he did say that he's playing the way he is in order to be difficult to read. As a mafioso that makes sense if he knew people look for mafia amongst the inactive names. Just because he's not lying low, the typical, safe mafia strategy, doesn't mean he's unlikely to be mafia, as he has specifically expressed interest in being atypical regardless of his alignment.

Though overall, I guess I do agree that independent is most likely.

Handorin, there are so many individual things that I want to counter in your response to me that it would be incredibly obnoxious to try and quote box it to you. So I'm just going to try to get to the big points and hope it covers most of what I want covered.

The fact is, even if it's good for townies to live longer than for them to die N1, it's still not as important as helping the town as a whole. I certainly hope I don't die anytime soon, but I'm not going to intentionally be evasive and confusing to the town just because I think it could keep me alive longer. That is not helpful. I would much rather try to establish myself as someone worth trusting and risk the mafia killing me for it (as if I would be at the top of their list), than be someone that the town can't rely on.

The main reason you give for intentionally being hard to read is that you don't want the mafia to know whether or not you have a PR. But that's not a good reason, because it is not at all difficult to be transparent to the town without revealing a PR. You make it sound as if you have to pretend you might not be a townie in order to keep your PR hidden if you have one. It makes no sense to me. Your PR's anonymity is not in any danger when you just present clear opinions and ideas to the town. If you are town, I would consider the playstyle you're currently using to be a really, really bad one, because it's making it impossible for me to trust you. Even townies with PRs don't have so much to hide that they have to intentionally confuse their own side.

And I completely understand what you mean by flying under the radar. My question still applies because Kiki and I were not the only ones who had not had discussion centered around us. In fact there are still plenty of people that fit that bill. It is clear to me that you are once again being evasive or just flat-out belligerent, as it is easy to see that the second half of my question still stands. You just assumed I didn't understand you and wrote it off. At this point, I don't care. You've answered it well enough by avoiding it with such determination.

 

[Handorin]

Yes, and if the cop investigates you because of you being suspicious, then that's one investigation that could have been used somewhere else. Also, he might counter-claim you, beliving you to be mafia, and then everyone loses. I think the risks WAY outweigh the benefits. Bad idea.

Except that it might semiclear you.

Okay, so that's potentially useful... if you're a bomb. If you're something that doesn't kill anyone who tries to kill you (i.e. most roles) your example is markedly less applicable.

And you're still robbing the cop of a legitimate investigation. Why would you try to get the cop to investigate you? How does that benefit the town more than the cop investigating someone else who's suspicious, and possibly getting a guilty? What if the cop simply reasons that you're probably lying since, well, he's the cop? (And yeah you can have multiple cops and different sanities, but not all players will reach that conclusion.) Plus if it looks like you're claiming cop, the real cop might simply be compelled to counterclaim you--again, maybe not the smartest play, but definitely within the realm of possibility.

You're doing things that are suspicious and trying to justify them as pro-town. At best you're distracting the town from looking at other suspects and at worst you're scum (or independent).

It's not the only thing it's useful for. -_- You could just want to protect the real one. It's all on a case by case basis. Breadcrumbing doesn't mean a straight out claim, and if a real cop actually picks up on the crumbs and decides to claim, that is pretty dumb. You don't even need to waste an investigation. There are only 2 or 3 possibilities: they are a different sanity cop, they are mafia faking, they are a indy. You can take care of that later in the game. It's almost exactly like KK claiming cop in HP mafia and investigating Harry Potter.

You can do ANYTHING in this game, and people can take it as either protown or promafia. Should I just stop giving examples of ways to play the game? What ever I say seems to be bad and against the town. Do I need to hold your hand and walk you through every play ever thinkable in a mafia game?

And I haven't done anything except defend myself for the past while is defend myself. I have not taken it upon myself to keep attention. Every explanation requires another explanation. Other people were being discussed, but because one guy doesn't understand a joke, he goes Rambo after me and then everyone follows suit.

Ummm....semi edit? I'm adding this before I post (preview post ftw) I noticed redcell and circus posted.... so don't expect all answers in this post

 

[Handorin]

Why did you say that, Handorin? If you're going for what I think you are, then saying this runs counter to it, and if you don't have a better explanation than what I can think of, then you're not going for what I think you are and are just putting on the show of it.

It was a joke more than anything. But if you think I am, you better convince the rest of the town. They seem to think otherwise.

I would still expect a singular mafioso to be much more desperate to stay alive than a single townie. Though I guess I haven't actually seen any precedent of this myself.

Why should a townie try any less hard to live than a mafia member? 1 less town is 1 step closer for a mafia win. While the town takes more steps toward a win, shouldn't you be trying to avoid a mafia win at all cost? (Sounds like something I have heard before...)

The main reason you give for intentionally being hard to read is that you don't want the mafia to know whether or not you have a PR. But that's not a good reason, because it is not at all difficult to be transparent to the town without revealing a PR. You make it sound as if you have to pretend you might not be a townie in order to keep your PR hidden if you have one. It makes no sense to me. Your PR's anonymity is not in any danger when you just present clear opinions and ideas to the town. If you are town, I would consider the playstyle you're currently using to be a really, really bad one, because it's making it impossible for me to trust you. Even townies with PRs don't have so much to hide that they have to intentionally confuse their own side.

I know, you've told me before. I got it. Hopefully you will enjoy my next playstyle more. Also, check out redcell's post above yours. Maybe you will listen to him.

And I completely understand what you mean by flying under the radar. My question still applies because Kiki and I were not the only ones who had not had discussion centered around us. In fact there are still plenty of people that fit that bill. It is clear to me that you are once again being evasive or just flat-out belligerent, as it is easy to see that the second half of my question still stands. You just assumed I didn't understand you and wrote it off. At this point, I don't care. You've answered it well enough by avoiding it with such determination.

Or you could have simply stated you understood and I could have answered. But since you won't listen now, I will tell everyone else wanting to know:
They weren't really on my radar at that point in the game. I just wanted to hear what a few other people thought on a couple other people (just like how Tom occasionally asks questions to people)

 

[Sharpevil]

It was a joke more than anything. But if you think I am, you better convince the rest of the town. They seem to think otherwise.

It seems like more of a desperate, childish move than anything. Obviously, having more votes isn't going to be part of your plan unless you're the jester. (wouldn't martyr be a better name for that role?) If you are the jester, though, you're a very good one. What I think I see is the classic sort of last resort to make people nervous about voting for you, one you could easily take back later. It mostly just makes me think you're an independent.

There have been a fair number of other good arguments made against you as well, mostly by Circus. You've been deliberately making yourself difficult to trust in the name of possibly protecting a power role, and you seem more worried about yourself than the town. In addition, you've just about completely halted the game's scumhunting, (except of course that directed at you) and seem more intent on discussing mafia theory for your own benefit. On the whole, you appear to be hurting more than helping. I was on the fence in my last post, but I think I've seen enough reason to give you my vote.

Vote: Handorin

 

[Kirby King]

FWIW I haven't voted for Handorin yet because I agree with junglefever's thinking. We have ten days left before deadline and even giving him three or four votes at this point puts us at risk of falling to some serious oneism. I'm still inclined to think Handorin is independent rather than scum, and there's a lot of scumhunting that can still be done before we give up and just decide to lynch Handorin.

Unvote Vote: Tom

It's been so long, dude! You still have a vote on Eor--still have a beef with him? Getting any vibes from Handorin (indie, scum... other) that you'd like to share? Any vibes from anyone else that you'd like to share? I think Hando asked you a question or two too.

Hey EE: can we get a mod prod on Medi and Yaya?

 

[Tom]

1. Does anything strike you as suspicious or comment-worthy about Eor?

2. Does anything strike you as suspicious or comment-worthy about Handorin?

3. What advice do you have to give to the new players like Nick? Is there anything you wish you had been told before your first game, TMNT Mafia?

4. What about Mex who has played 1 game before as scum in Tomafia 3? Do you have any advice for him?

5. What about Sharpevil, who is adjusting to a new style of play?

6. What do you think about a Day 1 No Lynch? Why is it an acceptable solution, or why should we try to avoid it?

7. Do you think someone with a one-shot power should use it now, when there are a lot of players alive and a good potential to live through the night with their results, or later when there are less players so a better chance of getting a worthwhile result while running the risk of dying between now and then?

8. What do you think about a mass roleclaim?

9. Do you think Macman is suspicious at all for voting me and putting me at L-5, with a possible but unprobable executioner?

10. If you had to choose between killing Yaya or Rockin right now, which would you kill? Why A and why not B?

Some people asked me to answer my own questions, and I do think the best way to respond to how Circus and Handorin responded to mine would be in responding to them myself:

1. The first comment Eor made in the game was directed at me, and he said (paraphrasing), "If you're just going to act like BabyJesus then we should just lynch you now, stop it," at a time when I'm confident I was not acting like BabyJesus and Eor's remark seemed to come out of nowhere. This feeling that Eor was only half-way invested in the discussion he jumped into that I got was magnified by the fact that Eor then immediately recanted his vote saying (paraphrasing) "oh sorry I didn't notice how many votes were on Tom," showing that he in fact wasn't fully paying attention. Now that I had the idea that Eor was not fully paying attention to the game, Eor then responded to something Mediocre said.

So unless you think you've found somebody who you think is working with Spider-Man, keep it to yourself.

Freudian slip?

Kidding. Just thought it was funny

But I'm not really into keeping role speculation to yourself. I agree that people shouldn't be saying "I bet Medi is the cop/doc", but other then that I don't see any problem with it

/edit

If you look at this, it clearly looks like Eor calls Medi out for a Freudian slip when Medi says that people who are working with Spider-Man should be outed. But that makes no sense, because people who are working with Spider-Man are MAFIA in this game, and people working against Spider-Man are TOWN. Combining this with the theory that Eor wasn't fully invested in the game, which is heightened by the fact that the post I'm quoting was actually originally just the words "Freudian slip?" but then he added the rest in EBWOP (edit by way of post for those of you who are new), it seems like Eor doesn't realize that though he is aligned with Spider-Man, the majority of us are aligned with the Sinister Seventeen.

The "Freudian slip?" comment is revealing of scum as a serious comment and doesn't make sense / isn't funny at all as a joking comment. So it just continued to pile onto the feeling that I got that Eor was scummy, which also wasn't helped by the fact that Eor waiting a very long time to address my questions when I repeatedly asked them. Then when he did, he said "it was a joke," again and I had to ask him to clarify what the Freudian slip in the joke would be until he said that "there isn't one, that's the joke."

I've gotten bad vibes from Eor all day, is the moral of the story.

2. IIRC at the time I wrote this question, Handorin has not yet jumped directly into the spotlight like he is now. He has been playing in a purposefully joking manner under the premise that it makes him less readable to his opponents, albeit in a way that makes him counter-productive and confusing. As others have commented and cited my regularly super active, mentor-like and town-looking play regardless of my alignment, you don't need to be confusing nor jokey to be harder to read. And you don't need to consistently change your playstyle to be harder to read. I can sympathize with the lynch that is forming on Handorin, but I think we need to continue discussing our options and wait longer. Though, Handorin, off the top of my head you have crumbed that you are vanilla, bomb, and jester, which is not helping your defense. You also suggested that you could be mafia and town wouldn't know how to read you; I hold very strongly the belief that a townie should never call himself mafia, should never entertain the possibility just to make a null point, should never include himself in a suggested lynch pool, and should never vote for himself for any reason. Scum will sometimes leak it by nature and accident, so when townies fight for their lives and never do it, it makes it easier to punish scum for it... alongside the fact that it has never helped anyone town-aligned to justify their own lynch.

3. The advice that I would give Nick is to continue playing exactly the way he is. He is being very active, fairly outspoken, argumentative and listening. That's a great way to play. I would also suggest to him that he is never careless with his vote in a lylo/mylo situation, to avoid the mafia piling on your quicklynch against another townie, which is how I lost my first game ever.

4. To MexicanBJ, I suggest that he keep playing the way he is, and maybe flesh out his posts with more of his opinions.

5. To Sharpevil, I would ask that he post more often and when he posts, address everything around you, because it makes it easier to discuss more and it makes it easier for other players to know where you stand and get a feeling of your alignment.

6. No Lynch is an acceptable route when you are completely unsure about the lynches that the day has ended up boiling down to. It really is a logical fallacy of false dilemma when you are forced to make a real (excluding hypotheticals for discussion) decision between killing person A and killing person B, because there are always others who are playing who are lynch candidates and you can always No Lynch. However, if the day has had a good amount of discussion and feeling that this Day 1 has had, I feel that a NL would be the wrong decision and we should work towards one we are comfortable with today.

7. For clarification to Handorin and Circus who failed to answer this question, a one-shot ability does not mean a 1-shot vigilante ability or a single nightkill. There are one-shot cops who have only one investigation for the whole game, there are 1-shot investigators or 1-shot custom roles like in TMNT when Cao had a 1-shot mutagen vialgun that allowed him to depower one player. And I see the pros and cons for both using your power before you worry you die and saving it for endgame where you have better odds to get the result you want, and normally I save my powers to close to endgame, as you can see in HP mafia, though because the final day in that game was actually 2 townies, 1 indy, and 3 mafia, we lost the game. Cruel situation, but I still feel I made the right decision saving my daykill one more day instead of shooting when 1048576 and Macman were both viable targets but died later that night and flipped town.

8. I think a mass role-claim is a poor idea on Day 1 or 2, but as the game progresses further and we recognize whether or not this game follows the current SWF trend where each player has at least one ability or special trait, it could end up being viable because the mafia and independents will have to scramble to legitimize themselves against the town-based patterns that will become evident. But I believe a nameclaim should always come first or with a roleclaim and never after. Or at least, I have not been shown a situation where roleclaim would have been better first.

9. I do not think Macman is scummy at all for the vote he put on me, and I focused more on the people who said he was.

10. The answers that I got for question ten REALLY irked me because I seriously asked which you would rather kill if forced to kill one of them, and even underlined HAD to kill, and Circus still said he would rather kill neither. To be quite frank, I don't believe he deserves the insight he could gain from my opinion if he is going to refuse to answer it himself when I made my question quite clear.

With 17 players, I am betting....

3/4 mafia
1 SK
1 Other Indy

With 17 players I'm betting 4 mafia (or 3 with a recruiter) and 2 independents, one of which could be a lyncher and the other could be a serial killer (working with Spider-Man flavor/knowledge here).

So I feel these two people have been flying under the radar:
King Kirby and Circus Rhymes with Jerkus

@Tom, Jungle, Nic, and MBJ:
What do you think of them so far?
Has there been anything that has caught your eye?

Gambler's fallacy aside, I think its about time Kirby King played a mafia role. He is a very good player, his town-alignment can tip a game towards the town's favor, and I value his input greatly, so he will always be caught by my eye. I think Circus should be more active but by the time I'm posting this I think he has been. As a player, I have seen that Circus is good with discussion and regularly navigates through tricky words and possibly laid traps.

On the note of the indy role, I think we should keep it on the backburner for a little bit. He doesn't win unless he's the last one standing. There's more than one mafia, I would agree that there is most likely 3 or maybe even 4. I'm not saying if you think you've found someone you think is an indy not to speak up about it and tell why, I'm just saying that, especially early in this game, that it would be more beneficial to our win condition to focus on the mafia rather than the indy.

No.

No, no, there wasn't a freudian slip, the joke was acting like I thought there was. I figured people would read my saying "freudian slip?" and be like "wtf", so I posted the "kidding" part. It was like, making a joke that we should role claim, but only the doc and cop.

I do not want to accept this as a satisfactory answer, so at this time I'm going to go with how I feel and I'm not going to. I wish you would do more than what you have, which has basically been to chime in, leave, and chime in on a very small part of a bigger discussion.

yea, i actually completely think the whole "freudian slip" thing with eor is a huge misunderstanding on your part tom and interpreted it the way eor says he meant it to be

overall, i think tom's making eor look more suspicious that i actually find him and i think his taking the vote away after he saw that tom had too many backs that (and yes you could argue that this is just a good play on his part but i believe it was genuine)

Okay.

Alright, here's my two bits. I haven't actually found that much to be suspect yet, but two things stick out in my mind.

The first post that bothers me is Kirby King's response to Handorin's accusation of flying under the radar. It kind of disturbs me that he immediately hit handorin with a barrage of questions. I know they're not really very defensive on the outside, but I still feel like there's something going on underneath. It strikes me as being kind of like an OMGUS.

The second post that bothers me was, interestingly enough, in Handorin's response to Kirby King's response to Handorin's accusation of flying under the radar. In it he says: "This style of play is brand new, and it's something I try to do each game. It's one of a few ways (I believe) makes it hard to read a player." If he is, in fact, pro town, wouldn't he want to make that readily apparent? I suppose this could mean that he's hiding a pro-town power that he's had before, but it also makes me suspicious that it was a sort of Freudian slip.

I don't feel comfortable voting for either of them yet, but those are the two that I've noticed acting strangely.

This is the kind of post that I wish I could get out of Yaya and Rockin more. Yaya lurks a lot lately and I find it unacceptable.

I hadn't seen that, but rereading the posts, I agree that Kirby King seemed to go on the defensive.

Also, about Handorin... he's seemed suspicious all game. First he was confusing about semantics on purpose, then he admitted being evasive on some of the questions asked, and then he called that "a new playstyle". The thing is, why would you want to be "hard to read", unless you're mafia/independent? (Correct me if there is another reason...)

However, I'm torn at this point between voting for KevinM, and Handorin. Both have seemed suspicious. KevinM put a vote on MexicanBJ for no reason (besides an unsupported "I think your scum") and expected a meaningful response, while Handorin has been unhelpful... Well,

Vote Handorin

Regardless of who you are "torn between," keep your sights on a lot of people. Keeping them on two has a bad tendency of making you want to lynch the one when the other becomes less attractive, when there are more than 2 players.

Sorry about doing this to you guys, but after reading about it Tommafia 2, i just had to do it here.

(Waits for someone to post that facepalm picture...)

No, and it shouldn't be common at all, its entirely stupid and only hurts the town.

The faked daykill scared me and spiked my nervousness, most definitely, but in Tomafia 2 when the "daykill" happened, McCloud reacted poorly which was what Marshy was looking for. So it's not entirely stupid and doesn't only hurt the town. It just shouldn't be done that often, and shouldn't be done in a way that made Nick look terribly misinformed and attracted loads of attention towards himself.

I'm gonna say Handorin cause he didn't scare us with a fake daykill ability.

Vote: Nicholas

It's all fine and dandy that You're trying to spark discussion or trying out new stuff, but if you're gonna keep doing crap like that, you're just gonna hurt down, whether you like it or not. Seriously, I feel you're not taking this discussion in seriousness.

So unless you want to get lynch, Knock it off.

This post really set off some of my flags, but maybe its just Rockin's playstyle that continues to do this (as it obviously did and is in TLI Mafia). You start out by falling into the false dilemma of Handorin or Nick, and then voted Nick because he scared you with the fake daykill. You then comment that its "fine and dandy that he's trying to spark discussion" but if he "continues, he's only going to hurt the town." I don't follow that logic. If its fine that he is trying to spark discussion, then it's fine that he's doing it. If It's not, it's not. Pick one. You then say that he's not taking the discussion seriously, which would be acceptable if Nick laughed off the fake daykill, but that's the opposite of what he did. He admitted that it had its faults, and he has addressed everything and discussed everything. He is most definitely taking the discussion seriously, and I have been able to get more of an acceptable read off of him than off of you, Rockin. At the end, you remark that he should "knock it off or get lynched." Knock what off? As I remarked earlier in the post, while the fake daykill shocked me, I didn't find it find anti-town.

Don't confuse the anti-town sentiments you feel towards a random REAL day-kill with one that turns out to be fake. They are two different things.

You shouldn't be even faking a daykill, let alone let Mafia know what you have. We are Town. We should stick together and keep all kinds of PRs concealed until the time is needed to reveal it to the group. What if someone thought you had a Vig pr? What if for some gay reason that KevinM actually died right there, how would you explain yourself? 'Oh, it wasn't me! I don't have a vig power role.' What's your proof? And so what if you just gave them a false pr. Mafia would just check that off the list and may figure out the possible power role you got.

Don't go for an reaction like that next time. It could backlash on you in the worst way.

In all seriousness, the mafia can't know if he has a daykill or not, because the daykill format could have been evaporate: target_player or eat: target_player or electrocute: target_player or any sort of flavored daykill pertaining to his character. Also, what does "We are Town, we need to stick together and keep all kinds of PRs concealed," even have to do with Nick fakekill?

FWIW I haven't voted for Handorin yet because I agree with junglefever's thinking. We have ten days left before deadline and even giving him three or four votes at this point puts us at risk of falling to some serious oneism. I'm still inclined to think Handorin is independent rather than scum, and there's a lot of scumhunting that can still be done before we give up and just decide to lynch Handorin.

Unvote Vote: Tom

It's been so long, dude! You still have a vote on Eor--still have a beef with him? Getting any vibes from Handorin (indie, scum... other) that you'd like to share? Any vibes from anyone else that you'd like to share? I think Hando asked you a question or two too.

Hey EE: can we get a mod prod on Medi and Yaya?

I agree with everything that was said in this post except the vote on me.