Sooo, CT ZeRo's initial tier list has Zelda dead last.

[☆Jazz☆]

The Queen of Hyrule doesn't deserve low tier!

She suree doesn't.

 

[KatKit]

She seems alright.

The more smack I hear about her, the more that I want to become good with her. She has a lot more potential than some people realize.

 

[BJN39]

She has a lot more potential than some people realize.

Do you mean SSB4 Zelda has more potential than 'we' realize? Or do you mean Zelda in general...

Because let me tell you, If you mean Brawl/Melee Zelda...sis....


Brawl and Melee Zelda are among the most depthless characters in their games, and offer no secrets or tricks to even have potential from. Everything about Zelda is known. No potential.

With that in mind, Zelda in SSB4 is shaping up to be VERY similar to Brawl Zelda. Where do you think that puts Zelda's potential?

 

[Captain Zack]

As a Zelda main in every iteration of Smash. Analyzing the footage from everything it seems even though her moves do less, they can combo. I saw Utilt+Utilt+Up smash during the demo. People need to get that this IS NOT BRAWL. Characters WILL be different!

 

[ECHOnce]

As a Zelda main in every iteration of Smash. Analyzing the footage from everything it seems even though her moves do less, they can combo. I saw Utilt+Utilt+Up smash during the demo. People need to get that this IS NOT BRAWL. Characters WILL be different!

They are different, as Zelda is. But the changes have all been considered, and our consensus here and elsewhere about SSB4 Zelda is that they're not nearly enough to get her past low/low-mid tiers as she is now. Some changes have arguably been buffs, but if she wanted to get anywhere, she would've needed few to no nerfs at all...which she definitely has at least a few of now from Brawl --> SSB4. Read prev page + other threads. There'll hopefully be more buffs before release, but it's hard to get hopes up when Nintendo has attempted to balance her in Melee/Brawl game and fallen short both times.

 

[Z1GMA]

Well, let's hope Sakurai realizes how bad she currently is, and also listen to the ppl who has played the demo.

Phantom, especially, is super-disapointing atm -- I personally think it that the Phantom itself should act similar to Ike's Quickdraw.
I do like the change in her Utilt, though, but that's pretty much it.

I still have faith in her beeing adjusted, though.

 

[Smashplayer]

How odd!!!

I don't agree with zeros judgement

Zelda has actually received more improvements than what everybody has noticed.
For a start her dash speed is faster and her second jump is higher ( she's also less floaty)
Her neutral a has a tiny bit more range and can be done in quicker succession
Dash attack has a sweet spot
Up tilt is faster and made for combos now
Forward tilt is also much faster and is good to KO ( good horizontal knockback)
Down tilt has a bit longer range and less ending lag
Down smash is faster , less lag
Nayrus love is faster
Dins fire has a larger explosive radius, more KO power and better speed
Farores wind is much faster, sweet spots ledges, does more damage and can KO
Up air does 1% more damage
Down air can do 3% more damage
Back throw is a better kill move
And even zeldas lightning kicks have been adjusted ( positioning closer to melee)

If you guys want to see some good gameplay of her in action to analyse for yourselves I recommend 2yesgaming, gamexplain, vgbootcamp, beanman25jr, yoshiller, zykrex, nintendoworldreport, and EWnetwork.. I doubt she will be top tier but possibly mid tier or mid low tier. The only major problems she faces is the slowness of dins fire and phantom slash and the landing lag of her lightning kicks. But anyway these were just his first impressions I guess we just have to wait until the tier list officially comes out

 

[Ganreizu]

I don't agree with zeros judgement

1) Don't quadruple post.
2) This was posted in ****ing june. It isn't relevant anymore.
3) Welcome to smashboards.

 

[slimjim]

If you guys want to see some good gameplay of her in action to analyse for yourselves I recommend 2yesgaming, gamexplain, vgbootcamp, beanman25jr, yoshiller, zykrex, nintendoworldreport, and EWnetwork.. I doubt she will be top tier but possibly mid tier or mid low tier. The only major problems she faces is the slowness of dins fire and phantom slash and the landing lag of her lightning kicks. But anyway these were just his first impressions I guess we just have to wait until the tier list officially comes out

Please be careful of even double-posting or you'll get warned. Quad-posting is NOT allowed, and could lead to a ban. I am not a mod, but please be careful in the future.

 

[Hokori]

@ Smashplayer , Though I've already merged your posts, as others have stated, please don't Double+ Post in the future (consider this as a verbal warning). Use the "Edit" feature in the bottom left section of your posts.

And yeah, there was no need to bump this topic at all. Especially knowing that these were initial impressions from a good while ago.

 

[Smashplayer]

Sorry I didn't know

 

[Alacion]

The information we gathered during E3 wasn't the most optimistic for Zelda honestly... especially given her incredibly poor showing at the Invitational. At the time, I was pretty much inclined to agree with the initial tier list.

Things are a bit different now that we have more solid information and seeing Zelda in practice.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

The information we gathered during E3 wasn't the most optimistic for Zelda honestly... especially given her incredibly poor showing at the Invitational. At the time, I was pretty much inclined to agree with the initial tier list.

Things are a bit different now that we have more solid information and seeing Zelda in practice.

Doesn't she have a different build now than from the E3 demo?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Doesn't she have a different build now than from the E3 demo?

nope :D

 

[Alacion]

http://morchudat.tumblr.com/post/97705258893/beginning-smash-4-thoughts

GO

 

[KuroganeHammer]

let's be real

he put marth in d tier

/canned laughter

 

[BJN39]

http://morchudat.tumblr.com/post/97705258893/beginning-smash-4-thoughts

GO

I'll enjoy it while it lasts. >_>

Anyways, when we DO get to tier lists, when the BR or whatever votes, I say we purposefully put Zelda at least 3 places lower than whatever she was gonna be, so that she can either at least START bad, and/or get to actually MOVE UP on a tier list. ('.')b

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can see the tier list already

50th Ganondorf
51th <empty>
52nd <empty>
53rd Zelda

 

[BJN39]

I can see the tier list already

50th Ganondorf
51th <empty>
52nd <empty>
53rd Zelda

PERFECT. This is exactly what I had in mind. That way on the 2nd tier list, she can go up to 52nd! :D

 

[Alacion]

Obviously you want Zelda to be dead last so:

1) You can still use her in low tiers.
2) You have a somewhat legit john for losing.
3) Winning results in the opponent being totally humiliated.

 

[BJN39]

All of those sound about right to me.

Hey, we can argue "but she was terripoop in brawl, and she r don't LOOK much different. Obvi she's low tier" We've got this low tier argument in the bag! Then we can win ALL those low tier tourneys that happen.

 

[ECHOnce]

http://morchudat.tumblr.com/post/97705258893/beginning-smash-4-thoughts

GO

Something here doesn't seem to quite add up...

Rosalina placed in mid-tier, just a few days after a certain duo got cut?
My salty senses are tingling!

 

[Alacion]

Because I know how much you all love these:

/v/ Tier List: http://i.4cdn.org/v/1411441446356.png

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Great! Love it Kevvy!

It's similar to my thoughts. Except Little Mac.

Spoiler: my list~

King Koopa and Queen of Hyrule Tier:
Bowser, Sheik

Top:
Rosalina, Zero Suit, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Mii Fighters

High:
Bowser Jr., Wario, Lucina, Marth, Lucario, Greninja, Pit, Dark Pit, Palutena, Meta Knight, Sonic

Mid:
Peach, Jigglypuff, Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, G&W, DK, Diddy, Toon Link, Ike, Robin, Pikachu, Charizard, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager, Captain Falcon, Ness

Low:
Zelda, Link, Ganondorf, Samus, Little Mac, Dedede, Fox, Falco, Olimar, Pacman

Roll Tier:
Megaman

 

[Skyblade12]

The information we gathered during E3 wasn't the most optimistic for Zelda honestly... especially given her incredibly poor showing at the Invitational. At the time, I was pretty much inclined to agree with the initial tier list.

Things are a bit different now that we have more solid information and seeing Zelda in practice.

You mean, people who have been playing with a single incarnation of Zelda for the past dozen years suddenly find that one that has been rebuilt from the ground up, that has different strengths, different weaknesses, and a totally different play style did not actually provide a balanced, measured, and fair assessment of how the new Zelda stands on her own merits?

My reality has been shattered.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Except she doesn't. She's the same Zelda but with a better up tilt.

Zelda was nerfed heavily with the replacement of her down B.

 

[Skyblade12]

Except she doesn't. She's the same Zelda but with a better up tilt.

So we just missed Farore's Wind being able to KO characters at 30% somehow?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It doesn't KO at 30%, it KO's midweights at about 90% AT BEST.

It's still not a move that you're going to use to hit people with.

GGGAARGHRRGRH IM TELEPORTING AT YOU, PLEASE DON'T PUNISH ME

 

[Skyblade12]

It doesn't KO at 30%, it KO's midweights at about 90% AT BEST.

It's still not a move that you're going to use to hit people with.

GGGAARGHRRGRH IM TELEPORTING AT YOU, PLEASE DON'T PUNISH ME

So we have exact frame data for every attack, in-depth analysis of every hitbox, knowledge of any and all sweetspots she may have, and a decently formed metagame with distinct foci and all valid play styles analyzed and decided already?

Geez, I'm behind the times.

 

[Banjodorf]

I remember when the first Brawl tier lists came out. The first legit one. DK was higher than Diddy (Only by one, but seriously.)

The game's going to change alot, and honestly I'm not going to take any list seriously when the game isn't even out in the west.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

when i read posts like this it takes a toll on my emotional health

So we have exact frame data for every attack, in-depth analysis of every hitbox, knowledge of any and all sweetspots she may have, and a decently formed metagame with distinct foci and all valid play styles analyzed and decided already?

Geez, I'm behind the times.

Zelda's moveset doesn't work.

She feels the same as Brawl, where you could easily argue she was as bad (if not worse) than Ganondorf. She still is plagued by the same problems. It's safe to say that she'll be horrible this game too.

I remember when the first Brawl tier lists came out. The first legit one. DK was higher than Diddy (Only by one, but seriously.)

The game's going to change alot, and honestly I'm not going to take any list seriously when the game isn't even out in the west.

Guess who was first on that list?

Meta Knight.

Just because a list is early doesn't invalidate the whole thing.

I expect my list to be wrong. I want to come back in 3 years and laugh because of how the metagame will have developed from everyone thinking Bowser is top tier to mid tier etc.

But I'm fairly certain (90%) she'll be low tier or worse.

 

[Banjodorf]

when i read posts like this it takes a toll on my emotional health

Zelda's moveset doesn't work.

She feels the same as Brawl, where you could easily argue she was as bad (if not worse) than Ganondorf. She still is plagued by the same problems. It's safe to say that she'll be horrible this game too.


Guess who was first on that list?

Meta Knight.

Just because a list is early doesn't invalidate the whole thing.

I expect my list to be wrong. I want to come back in 3 years and laugh because of how the metagame will have developed from everyone thinking Bowser is top tier to mid tier etc.

But I'm fairly certain (90%) she'll be low tier or worse.

Oh, hey, hey, I sure wasn't saying they're completely innacurate! Meta Knight's place never changed, and I think Snake was second on the list, and he didn't change much.

Outside of top tier they sure did change though. Olimar moved up 8 spaces and firmly stayed in top the rest of Brawl's lifespan. So did Diddy.

There's definitely characters that are more solid than others right now. From what I've watched (still gotta wait that 9 days to actually play ) ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina and Bowser seem like wrecking balls. This game's going to have an interesting metagame I think. My point was mostly that I think for this particular game, things are going to shift alot. And hell, we'll probably have balance patches (wtf even is that to the non-PM Smash community?) that'll mix things up.

 

[Skyblade12]

She feels the same as Brawl to someone who is used to her working a certain way and who is used to a metagame that plays out the way Brawl's does. The game itself doesn't play the same, but you're arguing that this one character does?

Every single character has had surprises waiting in their moveset that people didn't expect. Farore's Wind is but one example of that. Link's running slash is another. Those are some easier to find ones. Do you know how long it took anyone in the Samus threads to figure out that her bombs had a larger hitbox and did more damage than they did in Brawl or Melee? Two weeks. Because people assume that Samus just played the same and didn't actually experiment or wait for a proper analysis. They only found that out because people were obsessing over pictures since they couldn't play themselves.



Also, I expect when you come back in three years the game will have been patched so massively as to be nearly unrecognizable.

 

[Ffamran]

See, Zelda? This is what happens when you drop your sword when surrendering. At least Ganondorf kept his sword in a sheath.

Welp, whatever I guess, we'll just wait since tiers change all the freaking time.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Not really in this convo just saying that on for glory offensive Up-B seems to work better.

I dunno if it's because it's bigger or you have more control or what but it's harder to punish (right now at least)

 

[Alacion]

If Zelda ever uses Farore's offensively, all you have to do is shield then punish.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If Zelda ever uses Farore's offensively, all you have to do is shield then punish.

It's almost like people don't know what a shield grab is!

 

[A2ZOMG]

It doesn't KO at 30%, it KO's midweights at about 90% AT BEST.

It's still not a move that you're going to use to hit people with.

GGGAARGHRRGRH IM TELEPORTING AT YOU, PLEASE DON'T PUNISH ME

That's the wrong way to think of Faore's Wind. You do realize that it's basically the same as Metaknight's Down-B, except with far greater range? And Metaknight's Down-B was a REALLY GOOD MOVE.

The real reason this move is good is because of what potential options your opponent CAN'T cover. You can teleport in ANY GOD**** DIRECTION YOU CHOOSE. Being in range to hit your opponent means they HAVE TO BLOCK, and they can't just do this reactively. This puts pressure on your opponent's options, and lets you put them in a disadvantage without actually doing anything. If they shield, and you don't teleport towards them, you effectively have gained control over their movements.

The fact that this move KOs is even better, which gives Zelda many more risk/reward plays. Let's not forget that land trapping and edge trapping is REALLY GOOD IN THIS GAME. The real reason Zelda was bad in previous games was because she had basically 0 real KO setups on defensive opponents, which isn't the case in this game by a longshot.

Zelda to me is a very viable character. Yes, she has weaknesses approaching (though her air mobility is above average), and she has limited OOS options. But she has a strong recovery, good escape, and GREAT options for juggling and trapping people into kills.

 

[EddyBearr]

Sorry I didn't know

I miss you. Seeing you exist on these boards makes me feel good, but not seeing you since Thursday makes me sad. We didn;'t meant to scare you off.

OT: I think it is impossible for lightning kick to ever be the worst character. The design is just above other potential bad characters. If she has combos into kick, and if her other moves are faster/better in general (with lightning kick being good again) like the info seems to be, then she's a good character for this kind of game.

 

[Ffamran]

If Zelda ever uses Farore's offensively, all you have to do is shield then punish.

Funny, your post has Zelda as the background.

I just realized something: why does Zelda even use Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, and Nayru's Love anyway? She never used them in any Zelda game that I'm aware of and Din's Fire doesn't even work like that - it'd be more like Nayru's Love and Ike's Eruption combined. Sure, magic, but she could have other moves for that. I guess this might be an early character thing since Zelda was never shown engaging in combat until Wind Waker - as far as I'm aware of.

Sort of off topic, but: What if Zelda didn't appear in Melee, but made her first appearance in Brawl instead? This ignores anything related to Sheik; Sheik and Ganondorf still appear in Melee. One, people would say that time spent on Zelda would be used for Ganondorf with a Spaceworld 2000 move set. Maybe not, but Zelda's move set would be heavily influenced by Wind Waker and Twilight Princess - she fights in Wind Waker and is shown carrying a rapier in Twilight Princess implying should would and could fight if needed. As a result: she'd be similar to Link and Marth - her neutral B would involve a bow and (light) arrow and she might have used a rapier, a weapon that Marth's fighting style in SSB is based on with the tipper. Heck, she might be similar to Ganondorf with Dead Man's Volley - Possessed Zelda fight in Twilight Princess.