Sooo, CT ZeRo's initial tier list has Zelda dead last.

[KuroganeHammer]

That's the wrong way to think of Faore's Wind. You do realize that it's basically the same as Metaknight's Down-B, except with far greater range? And Metaknight's Down-B was a REALLY GOOD MOVE.

Stopped reading there.

Meta Knight down B is a good move?

Did you come back from the 2008/9 meta?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Stopped reading there.

Meta Knight down B is a good move?

Did you come back from the 2008/9 meta?

If you're going to be ignorant enough to refuse to acknowledge that Metaknight's Down-B is a legitimate good move, you don't understand fighting games at all.

Yes, Metaknight generally had other broken options that effectively could let him forget that his Down-B existed. That doesn't mean it was ever a bad move. Used correctly, it was FREE MOBILITY that your opponent could not react to, and needed to preemtively defend against. If you watch some of M2K's later Brawl matches, he actually uses Down-B quite a bit for this exact purpose.

Now let's add that land trapping and edge trapping are really good, and the fact Zelda's Up-B is a KO move. Zelda's Up-B is REALLY ****ING GOOD and you're insane if you don't accept that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

im losing brain cells from this discussion

im out

pce

(good luck @ Alacion with these guys. my prayers will be with you)

 

[Ffamran]

im losing brain cells from this discussion

im out

pce

(good luck @ Alacion with these guys. my prayers will be with you)

You could at least give your reasons for why certain moves are bad.

My personal opinion: All moves are bad; they don't instant-kill, therefore, all characters are trash tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He did give his reasoning. It just was really one-dimensional and short sighted and has effectively no understanding of how covering options ACTUALLY works.

I will restate, Zelda's Up-B is a REALLY GOOD MOVE. You can't use it mindlessly, but your opponent simultaneously can't mindlessly punish it either. Furthermore the sheer range on it gives you options for capitalizing on your opponent's openings and negative state that Zelda never had before, ESPECIALLY factoring that the move is able to KO. This is especially powerful in a game where edgetrapping and land trapping are both much stronger.

The claims that Zelda plays just like she did previously and is unviable as a result are unjustified. Yes she does have similar weaknesses, but unlike before, she has a real way to capitalize on an opponent's negative state. So she's very heavily risk/reward oriented. Getting in is tricky, but worth it when you have so many ways to confirm a kill.

 

[Alacion]

im losing brain cells from this discussion

im out

pce

(good luck @ Alacion with these guys. my prayers will be with you)

Okay, Jesse... if I don't die first.

She feels the same as Brawl to someone who is used to her working a certain way and who is used to a metagame that plays out the way Brawl's does. The game itself doesn't play the same, but you're arguing that this one character does?

Every single character has had surprises waiting in their moveset that people didn't expect. Farore's Wind is but one example of that. Link's running slash is another. Those are some easier to find ones. Do you know how long it took anyone in the Samus threads to figure out that her bombs had a larger hitbox and did more damage than they did in Brawl or Melee? Two weeks. Because people assume that Samus just played the same and didn't actually experiment or wait for a proper analysis. They only found that out because people were obsessing over pictures since they couldn't play themselves.



Also, I expect when you come back in three years the game will have been patched so massively as to be nearly unrecognizable.

First of all, I play Zelda in Melee and Brawl. I am totally familiar in her playstyles in both games.

Yes, every character had new additions and custom moves but that doesn't make everybody automatically equal. Farore's Wind has been buffed in two ways. One being that Zelda can no longer be edgeguarded. Two being Farore's Wind's insane knockback. While the latter is true, it can NOT be relied on. The ending lag is atrocious. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53G3xgDJ9y4, Farore's was used a lot and was often punished when being used offensively. When you're facing somebody like Bowser, you can't afford to, as a lightweight, overcommit especially with a move that is simple enough to figure out and punish.

Yes Smash 4 is new, but there are people with experience from past games with enough FUNDAMENTAL SENSE to know when something is good or bad. A gimmicky move like Farore's Wind is awful as an offensive option - no if, ands, or buts about it.

That's the wrong way to think of Faore's Wind. You do realize that it's basically the same as Metaknight's Down-B, except with far greater range? And Metaknight's Down-B was a REALLY GOOD MOVE.

The real reason this move is good is because of what potential options your opponent CAN'T cover. You can teleport in ANY GOD**** DIRECTION YOU CHOOSE. Being in range to hit your opponent means they HAVE TO BLOCK, and they can't just do this reactively. This puts pressure on your opponent's options, and lets you put them in a disadvantage without actually doing anything. If they shield, and you don't teleport towards them, you effectively have gained control over their movements.

The fact that this move KOs is even better, which gives Zelda many more risk/reward plays. Let's not forget that land trapping and edge trapping is REALLY GOOD IN THIS GAME. The real reason Zelda was bad in previous games was because she had basically 0 real KO setups on defensive opponents, which isn't the case in this game by a longshot.

Zelda to me is a very viable character. Yes, she has weaknesses approaching (though her air mobility is above average), and she has limited OOS options. But she has a strong recovery, good escape, and GREAT options for juggling and trapping people into kills.

Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape is awful. Used only in recovering to the ledge or as a landing mindgame. It's not a frequently used move and by far the least used special attack, and never used as an attack EVER. It still suffered from being edgehoggable as well.

Yes, Farore's can teleport you in any direction but realize that Farore's Wind is easy to react to... more so than most moves. As soon as Zelda starts swirling, you have a 1 second time frame (approximately) to react by shielding. If you don't teleport to the opponent, you have surrendered stage control and basically caused a reset... something you want only when you need to escape pressure.

Once people realize how easy Din's is cancellable and how to deal with Farore's Wind, Zelda will have a lot of trouble. Not sure if Zelda has KO setups in Smash 4... I suppose we will find out soon enough.

If you're going to be ignorant enough to refuse to acknowledge that Metaknight's Down-B is a legitimate good move, you don't understand fighting games at all.

Yes, Metaknight generally had other broken options that effectively could let him forget that his Down-B existed. That doesn't mean it was ever a bad move. Used correctly, it was FREE MOBILITY that your opponent could not react to, and needed to preemtively defend against. If you watch some of M2K's later Brawl matches, he actually uses Down-B quite a bit for this exact purpose.

Now let's add that land trapping and edge trapping are really good, and the fact Zelda's Up-B is a KO move. Zelda's Up-B is REALLY ****ING GOOD and you're insane if you don't accept that.

Mobility only towards the ledge. As a landing option, it's risky due to the landing lag of the move. Farore's Wind has been improved considerably, but it shouldn't be used the way you envision it to be.

He did give his reasoning. It just was really one-dimensional and short sighted and has effectively no understanding of how covering options ACTUALLY works.

I will restate, Zelda's Up-B is a REALLY GOOD MOVE. You can't use it mindlessly, but your opponent simultaneously can't mindlessly punish it either. Furthermore the sheer range on it gives you options for capitalizing on your opponent's openings and negative state that Zelda never had before, ESPECIALLY factoring that the move is able to KO. This is especially powerful in a game where edgetrapping and land trapping are both much stronger.

The claims that Zelda plays just like she did previously and is unviable as a result are unjustified. Yes she does have similar weaknesses, but unlike before, she has a real way to capitalize on an opponent's negative state. So she's very heavily risk/reward oriented. Getting in is tricky, but worth it when you have so many ways to confirm a kill.

Don't think punishes are mindless, but whatever. How has Zelda's game changed significantly? She had an aerial game in Melee, and a ground game in Brawl. In Smash 4, her best options are on the ground. High risk, high reward characters aren't that good. Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, and Olimar are all low risk, high reward characters which made them top tier material in Brawl.

Next~

 

[Ffamran]

He did give his reasoning. It just was really one-dimensional and short sighted and has effectively no understanding of how covering options ACTUALLY works.

I will restate, Zelda's Up-B is a REALLY GOOD MOVE. You can't use it mindlessly, but your opponent simultaneously can't mindlessly punish it either. Furthermore the sheer range on it gives you options for capitalizing on your opponent's openings and negative state that Zelda never had before, ESPECIALLY factoring that the move is able to KO. This is especially powerful in a game where edgetrapping and land trapping are both much stronger.

The claims that Zelda plays just like she did previously and is unviable as a result are unjustified. Yes she does have similar weaknesses, but unlike before, she has a real way to capitalize on an opponent's negative state. So she's very heavily risk/reward oriented. Getting in is tricky, but worth it when you have so many ways to confirm a kill.

I meant further reasoning. Yes, answering a question with "yes" is still a valid answer, but you have to/can back it up.

"X is a bad move". That's a reasonable answer, but giving more depth makes it more valid or understandable than just spouting say, "Warlock Punch sucks so much". Okay... Why? Silence, restatements, or childish insults like "You're a friggin' idiot if you're questioning why it sucks", is not enough or okay in a sense of sensible discussion.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Lol my point is that i've been punishing bad players using Farore's wind for years now, I think I know how to "shield and punish"

But my point is that I am no longer punishing it as easily which leads me to believe it's been buffed

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes Smash 4 is new, but there are people with experience from past games with enough FUNDAMENTAL SENSE to know when something is good or bad. A gimmicky move like Farore's Wind is awful as an offensive option - no if, ands, or buts about it.

You're stating the obvious. Don't ****ing use the move offensively. You use it as a PUNISH and for MOBILITY. It is REALLY GOOD for those purposes, and denying that is utterly insane.

Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape is awful. Used only in recovering to the ledge or as a landing mindgame. It's not a frequently used move and by far the least used special attack, and never used as an attack EVER. It still suffered from being edgehoggable as well.

A get out of jail free card that can't be reacted to is awful?

SERIOUSLY?

Yes, Farore's can teleport you in any direction but realize that Farore's Wind is easy to react to... more so than most moves. As soon as Zelda starts swirling, you have a 1 second time frame (approximately) to react by shielding. If you don't teleport to the opponent, you have surrendered stage control and basically caused a reset... something you want only when you need to escape pressure.

Note: your opponent HAS TO SHIELD when you are in range to hit them with Up-B. This is not a trivial commitment. The fact your opponent CANNOT ACTUALLY REACT to where you appear allows you to condition your opponent.

Once people realize how easy Din's is cancellable and how to deal with Farore's Wind, Zelda will have a lot of trouble. Not sure if Zelda has KO setups in Smash 4... I suppose we will find out soon enough.

Edge trapping and land trapping are REALLY REALLY GOOD IN THIS GAME. And Zelda hits hard.

I know it's an oversimplification, but seriously. I don't think you really understand just how viable her KO options are in this game. Yes, I'm completely aware she has poor approach and OOS options. But when all it takes is a random DA, D-tilt, or grab to give you the positional advantage you need to set up Din's Fire/Up-B traps or heck, just to get someone off the stage where they have to grab the edge and deal with how bad edge options are in this game, Zelda has extremely viable KO options.

Don't think punishes are mindless, but whatever. How has Zelda's game changed significantly? She had an aerial game in Melee, and a ground game in Brawl. In Smash 4, her best options are on the ground. High risk, high reward characters aren't that good. Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, and Olimar are all low risk, high reward characters which made them top tier material in Brawl.

Next~

Zelda's game isn't different except she has viable KO setups that don't actually rely completely on mistakes. And that alone means she's a MUCH better character than she was previously.

Zelda's game by the way isn't entirely risky. She still is incredibly strong on the defensive and hard to approach. Yes you're inevitably going to have to approach to make plays in several matchups, but at least in this game you have real setups.

 

[Alacion]

@ SFA Smiley The general consensus is that Farore's Wind has been buffed. You can't be edgehogged and the landing lag has decreased. The point I think some of us were trying to make is that Farore's Wind isn't a move you should be relying on to get KOs.

@A2whatever You're stating the obvious too.

So Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape is godly because Pierce of all people said so 4 years ago? Pretty sure a few posts down he says he hasn't tested this and that it's not a good option against Diddy Kong. I stopped reading there. Please show me vids of players using Dimensional Cape.

Pretty sure shieldstun has been reduced from Brawl which is not good news for Zelda. Killing with Din's? Maybe if they don't realize Nair still cancels Din's. Hoping the opponent DIs badly so you can kill them with the second hit of Farore's? Relying on random down airs to set up KO moves? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Keep in mind too that people survive longer than in Brawl, and Zelda still doesn't have favourable hitboxes on her sweetspots.

Please start winning tournaments with Zelda and enlighten us all. What are these viable KO setups? I'd like to see vids of that please.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Posted this a while ago. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24517835

There is some lack of matchup knowledge evident in some of the moments, but either way, I have more reason to believe that Zelda is in fact pretty viable in this game. She'll have counterpicks and thus won't be close to top tier, but her gameplan by all means has a relatively complete toolset. Primary weakness is she has to make a guess when approaching, but her ground moves are all very good. Jab, D-tilt, grab, and Dash Attack are extremely solid moves meaning Zelda EVENTUALLY WILL GET IN because she can viably play footsies. More importantly airdodge mechanic changes, edge changes, and the fact Up-B is a kill move means Zelda actually has a lot of options to capitalize on the opponent's negative state for the KO in a way that can't actually be avoided if she makes the correct read.

 

[Alacion]

http://youtu.be/53G3xgDJ9y4?t=1m35s

Posted this a while ago. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24517835

There is some lack of matchup knowledge evident in some of the moments, but either way, I have more reason to believe that Zelda is in fact pretty viable in this game. She'll have counterpicks and thus won't be close to top tier, but her gameplan by all means has a relatively complete toolset. Primary weakness is she has to make a guess when approaching, but her ground moves are all very good. Jab, D-tilt, grab, and Dash Attack are extremely solid moves meaning Zelda EVENTUALLY WILL GET IN because she can viably play footsies. More importantly airdodge mechanic changes, edge changes, and the fact Up-B is a kill move means Zelda actually has a lot of options to capitalize on the opponent's negative state for the KO in a way that can't actually be avoided if she makes the correct read.

Lol okay.

So what are all these options Zelda suddenly gets because Farore's has KO potential? Well I guess there are infinite values between 0 and 360 degrees?

You have to make the correct read for something "that can't actually be avoided"?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up-B having KO potential means you can't just run away from Zelda when she knocks you in the air. Her range at which she can land trap you for the KO is MUCH larger as a result.

Zelda previously could only kill you if you were explicitly in range of her Smashes or her aerials, which is a losing combination for a character that doesn't have much ground mobility. Furthermore, edgetrapping was much weaker in Brawl where stalling at the ledge effectively couldn't be punished, and you retained ledge invincibility for ledgehopping. This isn't the case in Smash 4, and you have to keep in mind that Zelda has very good tools for pressuring the edge.

And the point is, Zelda actually can realistically cover all her opponent's defensive options when they are in the negative state and KO you. Which she couldn't do previously. You basically were completely safe from Zelda if you were just moving away from her and shielding 90% of the time in previous games. So yeah, in Brawl, you work hard for that grab or DA, and you get virtually nothing from it if your opponent just chooses to DI away from you all day. The fact she has a HUGE range at which she can now land trap you with a move that KOs is not a small deal.

So I'm not kidding when I say when Zelda reads you, you can't avoid being KOed by her. Because that literally wasn't the case in previous games.

Let's also keep in mind that Zelda's survivability is good because of her strong recovery (Zelda has good options AGAINST ledgetraps), good air mobility, good escape, and generally strong defensive options. Being dependent on risk/reward to make plays though isn't completely a bad thing. Look at Brawl Snake. His entire game is viable entirely because of outrageous risk/reward ratios, in spite of his toolset overall being really telegraphed and limited. Snake can't kill you if you refuse to ever take risks against him (how does he deal with platform camping? He can't). Still one of the strongest characters in the game.

Smash 4 Zelda isn't quite that binary though, because again, you actually have a very large range at which you can viably trap someone for KOs, and because Smash 4 general landing/ledge physics make more setups generally viable.

 

[Rion]

It does feel similar to how in melee > brawl she seemed to get a lot of "upgrades", but in practice it just wasn't what she needed.

I was seriously hoping that with her separation from Sheik that they'd really somehow rework her core weaknesses a bit more but, alas. I sort of feel like it's a running joke with the developers to make all the Legend of Zelda characters as horrible as possible, haha.

On another note too, Zelda isn't a terribly often used character either in pretty much every iteration and I'm almost fairly certain it'll be the same for this one, so trying to push her metagame is going to be hard as well. The poor queen's just got a lot of **** stacked against her.

One thing that seriously bothered the hell out of me is how Phantom Knight could have been such a great move for her, but is crippled by irritating design choices:

-Being a projectile. They should have made it something that couldn't be reflected.
- NOT BEING ABLE TO STORE THE CHARGE. This is the biggest "what the hell" thing for me.

You're basically giving her a mid-range projectile that has to be charged a hell of a while before it can even go anywhere, that can't be reused immediately plus she's stuck long enough in the cooldown frames so she can't even capitalize on using it as a good "trapper" so to speak. PLUS the fact it doesn't even hit right infront of her and whiffs people too close to her.

Gimme us a break developer people.

Honestly if they had just let her store the charge on Phantom it would have made it an actually useful tool to keep opponents pressured rather than it's sort of niche use it appears to be right now.

I mean I'm still gonna use Zelda because she's always been my go to character, but it is frustrating that they just refuse to give her reliable tools and strategies or just outright do silly stuff like with Phantom and Din's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda's biggest problem in Brawl is she pretty much had 0 setups to kill you if you played conservatively against her unless your name was Bowser or Ganondorf. Yes, approaching is hard, and her OOS options are limited. Those aren't completely unworkable problems when you have decent footsies, and if I recall, her grab is better in this game.

In a game where land trapping and edgetrapping are REALLY REALLY STRONG, and where you have a KO option to chase people onstage who DI away from you, Zelda actually works in this game. Yes neutral is still uphill due to low grounded mobility, but Zelda is good at escaping traps due to her air mobility, and your capitalization options are FAR more reliable in this game.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Just, a question about Farore's Wind landing lag: is it way shorter when already on the ground?

Since Brawl, I use Farore's Wind offensively, and to me, it's was always a ground attack. I'm not a competitive player, but I remember that CPUs had trouble to counter it, even with their perfect shields (but, whatever you do, they knew where you were going ._.) So I wondered if it was the same in Sm4sh?

 

[ZombieBran]

Wow, many of you are pretty rude. Apparently disagreements on Smashboards can't be handled without anger.

 

[evmaxy54]

Wow, many of you are pretty rude. Apparently disagreements on Smashboards can't be handled without anger.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Popcorn?

 

[thesage]

The new up-b can still be shielded and then punished with a grab, nair, or u-smash. It's pretty easy to react to it fast enough, especially when you consider that people had to deal with fighting melee Fox lol.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Zelda turned out to be the worst character in the game.

 

[MrEh]

Wow, many of you are pretty rude. Apparently disagreements on Smashboards can't be handled without anger.

This is actually an improvement on what the Zelda boards used to be.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

did you draw that yourself

it's v. impressive if you did

 

[MrEh]

Maybe.

Spoiler

fml yeah I did

 

[A2ZOMG]

The new up-b can still be shielded and then punished with a grab, nair, or u-smash. It's pretty easy to react to it fast enough, especially when you consider that people had to deal with fighting melee Fox lol.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Zelda turned out to be the worst character in the game.

But Melee Fox was clearly top tier precisely because all the bull**** he could do was nigh unreactable, so your point is? You didn't deal with Melee Fox. You waited for him to screw up and then hoped your character could gimp him. Playing against the space animals in Melee is either a steamroll where your options are almost completely removed or in the best case scenario, a guessing game that is hugely in the favor of Fox and Falco. Again, you don't beat Melee Fox or Falco. You play hoping they mess up.

And no, Zelda Up-B is not easy to react to. If you shield and Zelda does not teleport to your location, you have sacrificed control, and Zelda gets effectively free repositioning. Zelda forces you to shield preemptively when she Up-Bs. She can either fake you out by teleporting in place, or teleport in any direction she chooses, which doesn't have to strictly be to your location. Or alternatively if she sees you committing OR if you are landing, she can easily punish you with her Up-B in those situations.

Zelda is quite viable in this game because she actually has real KO setups at many ranges that don't rely on the opponent messing up and just simply require safe reads that can cover all options. The fact land trapping and edge trapping is REALLY STRONG in this game makes her a lot better in this game when once your opponent is off their feet, they can only guess correctly to avoid your punishes which can all KO relatively early. Furthermore, Zelda is very good at getting back to neutral due to how versatile her Up-B is, which makes her actually difficult to kill if she's played well.

 

[Alacion]

Official Japanese tier list: https://game8.jp/matome/14157

Guess the Japanese aren't using Farore's Wind enough, am I right? I mean it kills at 90%, teleports you in 16 totally different directions, and is unpunishable on shield. The startup and landing on Farore's is like 5 frames so nobody can react to it.

I can even teleport in place, and it will surprise the opponent so bad that the shock guarantees a free punish. The initial hit of Farore's is a PM style DI trap that guarantees the second hit to land - regardless of the opponent's % and DI/Vectoring. Boy the Japanese sure are bad!

 

[BJN39]

^ Actually, has anyone tested yet whether or not Farore's can travel in MORE than 16 directions yet, like, maybe more exact directions?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Official Japanese tier list: https://game8.jp/matome/14157

Guess the Japanese aren't using Farore's Wind enough, am I right? I mean it kills at 90%, teleports you in 16 totally different directions, and is unpunishable on shield. The startup and landing on Farore's is like 5 frames so nobody can react to it.

I can even teleport in place, and it will surprise the opponent so bad that the shock guarantees a free punish. The initial hit of Farore's is a PM style DI trap that guarantees the second hit to land - regardless of the opponent's % and DI/Vectoring. Boy the Japanese sure are bad!

How about you read this.

Japanese tier lists tend to be based almost exclusively on tournament results as far as I can tell. At least that's the way it used to be for Brawl. Since there are only two major regions within Japan [Osaka/Kansai and Tokyo/Kantou] these tier lists are very polarized towards the characters their top players are successful with. In 2010 the "official" japanese Brawl tier list had Ice Climbers in D-Tier and Pit as the 5th best character because Kakera only about started to do well with ICs whereas Pit had a lot of top placings through Masashi and Earth. Even the fact that lain had placed 3rd at Apex with ICs wasn't recognized in their tier lists.

As far as that Smash 4 Tier list is concerned it's pretty clear that the characters who are up high will remain up high. Whether Sheik will actually be the best character in the game remains to be seen - I really doubt it. The only character I find really misplaced is Diddy Kong, whom I think should be very high on the list. But from the 5 top characters I had talked about earler, Japan has 4 of them in A- or B-Tier
The rest of that list is an approximation and a very faint one at best. Palutena as dead last seems like an exaggeration. Shulk and Falco are suspicioulsy low, Kirby also seems to be a bit low. On the other hand Charizard, Mario and Villager seem higher than they should be imo.

tl;dr, while their top 10 or so characters are probably accurate, there is evidence that suggests that anything below that is purely speculative and not actually representative of the maximum competitive potential of the characters.

Also clearly, you're a person who does not deserve to participate in analytic discussion. Come back when you show more respect and thought for it.

 

[Alacion]

I agree. Falco should be top tier like Zelda. He too can recover/travel in 16 different directions... can't understand why people don't see Falco's maximum competitive potential.

He has an unpunishable approach in his Side B, which is hard to react to and safe on shield. It forces opponents to shield against it. It even meteors opponents in the air. This gives him a VIABLE approach option in which to pressure opponents. Definitely on the level of Farore's Wind and Dimensional Cape.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Poor fool is a lost cause. Using hyperbole where none is needed and bringing up irrelevant details, all for the purpose of being spiteful and missing the greater point.

Congrats on being petty and unhelpful. You have strengthened my case, not that you actually understood any of it in the first place, though it's been stated in enough topics. And you've demonstrated enough of a lack of understanding for how covering options works, and an unwillingness to learn.

 

[BJN39]

It's like they legitimately think we have no idea what we're talking about

So, A2ZOMG, you're maining Zelda right? Just curious.

 

[micstar615]

O.o well things sure escalated quickly.

I think with the new physics of this game, Zelda will be more viable, however she'll still be lowish tier due to her having some of the same flaws. She's gotten some cute buffs and is overall probably the best iteration of Zelda we've had.

I just CANT at Sakurai giving her such a crappy projectile as a down B and giving her such meh custom moves. He previously stated that he reworked every character from scratch, seems like he didn't do much to change Zelda. I'll still have a lot of fun maining her though, and again I think she'll at least be viable this time around.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Down-B could be better. It has its niche uses though for giving Zelda some extra range on her ground game, so I'm not terribly upset with it.

Yeah, the statement that he was reworking characters probably mostly only applies to a few animations and textures. Otherwise it's pretty much a lie.

And no, I'm not maining anyone in this game. Maybe Ganondorf. MAYBE, because nobody is more entertaining. Otherwise I intend to attempt to play everyone in this game, and play whatever top tier I'm comfortable with on For Glory mode.

Though if they do balance patches, maybe I'll go back to Mario or G&W, my old mains. I'm sorta upset they got more nerfs than buffs atm.

I intend to make my presence observable in all the character forums, but there's only so much time to collect information, and the game is still new and vids are limited for some characters. Zelda just so happens to be of high interest right now because the character clearly had some very gamechanging buffs that can be easily observed on videos, which are being understated by some people. Yes, I will admit they don't make her top tier, and she's not likely to be high tier. But her gameplan in this game actually works and unlike the previous two games isn't actually completely shut down by playing a specific flowchart against her.

 

[Alacion]

I intend to make my presence observable in all the character forums, but there's only so much time to collect information, and the game is still new and vids are limited for some characters.

I fear for us all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I fear for us all.

Clearly, you have a reason to because you're outright terrible at analyzing games and only can resort to snide remarks to preserve your own self-worth.

Obviously since you can't actually contest my statements directly, I know I'm correct.

 

[BJN39]

Down-B could be better. It has its niche uses though for giving Zelda some extra range on her ground game, so I'm not terribly upset with it.

Yeah, the statement that he was reworking characters probably mostly only applies to a few animations and textures. Otherwise it's pretty much a lie.

And no, I'm not maining anyone in this game. Maybe Ganondorf. MAYBE, because nobody is more entertaining. Otherwise I intend to attempt to play everyone in this game, and play whatever top tier I'm comfortable with on For Glory mode.

Though if they do balance patches, maybe I'll go back to Mario or G&W, my old mains. I'm sorta upset they got more nerfs than buffs atm.

I intend to make my presence observable in all the character forums, but there's only so much time to collect information, and the game is still new and vids are limited for some characters. Zelda just so happens to be of high interest right now because the character clearly had some very gamechanging buffs that can be easily observed on videos, which are being understated by some people. Yes, I will admit they don't make her top tier, and she's not likely to be high tier. But her gameplan in this game actually works and unlike the previous two games isn't actually completely shut down by playing a specific flowchart against her.

Her buffs can't really be that game-changing if she can't get any higher than lower mid-tier.

If you really want GAME-CHANGING, Falco and Fox seem like better subjects of interest concerning that IMO. No real laser use is a big metagame shift.

Clearly, you have a reason to because you're outright terrible at analyzing games and only can resort to snide remarks to preserve your own self-worth.

Obviously since you can't actually contest my statements, I know I'm correct.

Please refrain from using such absolute and harsh statements. Not only could you be reported if it escalates, but Aleate is actually a very well-educated Melee AND Brawl Zelda player, and can be considered one of the better Zeldas in Brawl around, IMO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Her buffs can't really be that game-changing if she can't get any higher than lower mid-tier.

If you really want GAME-CHANGING, Falco and Fox seem like better subjects of interest concerning that IMO. No real laser use is a big metagame shift.

Zelda was BOTTOM TIER in Brawl and Melee. One of the three worst characters in both games. And her gameplan in both games literally died to a flowchart, meaning if you played following certain steps, she basically wouldn't ever kill you.

That isn't the case here. Yes you need to still take risks to approach, though having a standardized grab and a better Jab significantly helps. The real difference is Smash 4 Zelda has legitimate KO setups even if you're trying to just defend and run away from her.

Even if she's not SUPER STRONG, her gameplan is in fact far more complete than it has ever been, which if anything, makes her more fun and satisfying to play and analyze. Zelda in this game has a tool for functioning in most situations. She's quite well designed here. She isn't Ganondorf who actually does still suffer from the problem of being extremely vulnerable to flowchart defense and thus is almost undeniably the worst character in this game. Being changed from someone you could beat nearly on autopilot to a character that actually can thrive and succeed on some mixups is pretty big.

On the subject of Fox and Falco, Fox is the same character from Brawl except he just pokes with lasers slightly less and fewer abusive combos on him. Falco yeah, his long range control game was basically removed in favor of a better recovery and more consistent footsies, the latter of which he already was strong in.

Please refrain from using such absolute and harsh statements. Not only could you be reported if it escalates, but Aleate is actually a very well-educated Melee AND Brawl Zelda player, and can be considered one of the better Zeldas in Brawl around, IMO.

I'm well aware of that. That doesn't excuse him from being petty, unhelpful, and terrible at analyzing games.

 

[BJN39]

The real difference is Smash 4 Zelda has legitimate KO setups

~

I'm well aware of that. That doesn't excuse him from being petty, unhelpful, and terrible at analyzing games. I will not actively give special treatment to players for who they are,

^
To the first part, maybe you meant something else, but all of her "combo or, KO setup" moves should theroretically never connect into a KO move at KO% at least, on a large part of the cast. Vectoring appears to be more effetive for KB change at higher%, so Dthrow, Dtilt, and Utilt, can be Vectored and DI-ed to make a followup not possible. Along with this, those attacks are actually just too slow to end, and most characters can additionally jump out or airdodge to avoid a followup. I'm just saying that I don't think she has legit KO setups. Of course, under the same thought, neither will many other chars with "KO setups".


As for the SECOND part...

GURL BYE.​

 

[Alacion]

You act as if I was ever trying to argue with you - you're just entertaining us all. I mean, we stopped arguing against you because you're a lost case. First, you're arguing with Aero who is/was a BBR and Smash Lab member (if they even exist anymore). No matter what he said, he was wrong and he just gave up on you. Then I tried and gave up on you too. Then Rizen, who for the most part is never confrontational, even had to deal with your ramblings. It's not even the Zeldas, you're annoying the hell out of the other character boards too. That Japanese tier list is based on the opinions of many Japanese players, and you're using the opinion of one person to refute everything? Did I ever say it was absolute? It's something to discuss and you're blowing this out of proportion.

Let me be frank. You are so dead set in your own opinions that you are completely ignoring any argument we put against you. Remember when I asked you for KO setups and you never gave me any? Remember that bit about Dimensional Cape and your evidence was from a post 4 years ago from somebody who doesn't even play MK? I asked you for video proof and you never gave me any and still insisted I was wrong. (Those videos don't exist)

Keep in mind a lot of us have Smash experience in multiple games, and we have played enough to know which moves are good/bad and when to use them. That counts for something and I guarantee that initially, it will be experienced Smash players that dominate the Smash 4 scene because we can quickly figure out what works and doesn't. Obviously we're going to be wrong at times

Farore's Wind is NOT that great because despite what you think, it is heavily punishable based on actual gameplay as well as experience. Even theoretically, the start up is so obvious and the lag is still significant that there is no reason NOT to shield against it. After, it's an easy punish but you refuse to believe this.

Zelda still can't force an approach. Din's and Phantom aren't enough to survive the battle of attrition so Zelda will typically be the one going in. And no, that is not a good thing. You won't be using Farore's to get in unless you have a death wish.

Got work then class. Won't be responding to you A2 - can't wait to see you taking tournaments with Farore's Wind.

 

[micstar615]

Just wanting to add to the FW conversation (though I'm sure this has been stated) FW is VERY punishable if used offensively. It shouldn't just be whiffed or used as a reliable approach or attack option because it isn't.

However, it's one of the (if not the) best recoveries in the game and helps Zelda's survivability a ton. It's also got good utility allowing Zelda to: escape/punish/trap more effectively, overall it's a great move, but it can be bad if used stupidly imo, it's not a reliable offensive/approach move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

KO setups are easy for Zelda in this game. As I stated SEVERAL TIMES, you can legitimately land trap people with Din's. Throw it at them when they're a little bit above something like short hop height or something, and if they airdodge, you literally have enough time to F-smash. This didn't work in any other Smash games except on like...Bowser in Brawl, who had absolutely no landing options. Even if for some reason they have an aerial that might clank with it, that's also usually punishable either by slightly altering the timing you release Din's, or during the end lag frames of their move. Din's also can control the way your opponent recovers, which gives you more options for edgeguarding. Yes, that existed in Brawl, but edgeguarding with Zelda previously was near-suicide to attempt due to her Up-B being way worse for recovery. Even the simple fact that you can edgeguard safely is massive.

Edge trapping is also insanely strong in this game. If you aren't getting free kills from it now with a character like Zelda who has STRONG pokes and long ranged lingering hitboxes, you are missing out on a huge part of the character, because you can't edge stall your way out of edge traps in this game. Then there's the universal option of edge stealing which is relatively unexplored. Currently, it makes Ganondorf not a 100% complete lost cause when it gives him more ways to guarantee you die when he finally gets you offstage. Zelda on paper has a stronger B-air than Ganondorf, so checking to see if she can hit people with it after edge steals is important.

Finally, against people that try to land further away from you, the fact Faores is a KO option means you can cover landings at massive ranges even though your run speed is relatively slow. Also gives you options to read B-reversals and punish accordingly. Point being, Zelda can most definitely cover the necessary options to trap people into KOs in this game, which was not the case previously.

Yes, if you always knew where Zelda was going to teleport, Faores would be terrible. That's CLEARLY not how it works, and that is clearly why right now, Faores is a good move, because your opponent needs to react differently to punish you for teleporting different directions. Gets you out of juggle traps and edge traps easily. Then there's using it for land trapping, which you COULD do in Brawl, but the reward was nearly nonexistent making Zelda not scary at long range.

Yes, there's some really fast characters who can wait out the total duration of the move and punish you reactively if they weren't already committed to pressuring you. I'm not denying this. So don't throw out the move in neutral against those characters where they're in a position to reactively punish you. That doesn't change that the move is overall very strong for mobility that can get you out of traps and keep your opponent guessing. Zelda is VERY hard to juggle and can escape from edge traps much more easily than other characters BECAUSE Faores exists. Add her HUGE range at which she is able to potentially KO you for simply landing, it's a fantastic move, and denying that is in fact utterly insane.

And again, you never needed to state the obvious "DON'T USE THIS MOVE OFFENSIVELY UNLESS THEY'RE WIDE OPEN". That's ********, and nobody is denying Zelda needs to approach and her approach options are not entirely safe. She DOES have better footsies than before and her options to capitalize on the negative state are MUCH MUCH better than they were previously, due to land/edge mechanics, and due to Faore's Wind being a long distance KO option. Meaning Zelda CAN beat turtling in this game.

Honestly so much of your argument even if the majority of it is factually correct misses the bigger picture and dodges the actual main points that are being argued. That is particularly why you and Aerodrome are intolerable and shouldn't be in the discussions, because you are both equally wrapped up in the wrong irrelevant things. You want to claim I'm set in my opinion? That goes both ways. I will concede you made slightly better points about ways Faores is unsafe to throw out in neutral, but it still is not seeing the larger picture and factoring players understanding beforehand the CORRECT situations to be using options.

And to reiterate, nobody including myself is saying Zelda is top tier, or even likely high tier. She is however a very complete character in this game with good footsies, good survivability, and good KO setups. She IS slightly below average in neutral due to her lack of a safe air approach and low ground mobility, but that isn't unworkable.

 

[micstar615]

These gifs are the best things to come out of this thread xD