Sonic vs Sheik

[Kinzer]

By really hard you mean impossible.

-agrees with Flamingo-

Please go play a half-competant King Dedede who knows about the infintie as Donkey Kong, and then tell me that is the same situation as Sonic vs Sheik.

HM YOU THINK SHEIK RELIES ONLY UPON FTILT. HAH.?? Although it may get him out of a complete lock, you, my friend, have no chance then. Seriously. Us skilled Sheiks don't rely upon a tilt "lock" we can combo and perform mix-ups with it. Play a larger variety of skilled* people before you say stuff like that.

Aren't you quite the airhead? God I really didn't want to flame, but it seems like being a jerk is the only way this is going to be addressed.

Since when did I say Sheik is ALL FTilt? The only thing I said was Spring was one way to get out of the lock (and IMO the best option AFAIK). Now why are you combinig the entire community that play Sheik, I doubt every single one of you is competant, and in my eyes you are starting to look like some kind of troll/ignorant player. I'm not denying that Sheik has the combos (Z'OMG in Brawl?!) and mix-ups, but the problem is like everything else not broken in this game, requires setups! Finally I could tell you the same thing, I HAVE played highly skilled people, both Offline and On, maybe you should try it yourself.

I don't play sonic or play many others either. But I don't know needles only are going to really shut sonic down on large flat stages.

I know sonic can gimp very very well with fair and bair and shiek's recovery isn't the best.

I don't know about priority but ftilt definitely out ranges sheiks stuff dtilt isn't horrible either.

If sonic can get sheik into the air she is in a bad spot uair and fair pose a huge problem up there and his ground speed lets him close distance fast while you are trying to get back down to the ground.

Now don't get me wrong, this match is definitely in shieks favor , it is hard for sonic but far from impossible. A smart sonic who picks and choses his oppertunities could definitely win a match.

This guy, I like him so far.

Edit: Ankoku is a pretty cool dude too.

He posts vids of Anther's Sonic.

 

[Tenki]

tristaaaaannn where are youuuuuu

I don't play sonic or play many others either. But I don't know needles only are going to really shut sonic down on large flat stages.

Needles don't really shut Sonic down. I mean you can knock him out of spindash and dash attack and that's about it. If he shields it, well, it's not like Sheik can move much while he's still shielding so there's not much gained or lost if he's doing a running "approach", except he'll have covered distance and gotten closer to you, which makes any whiff more dangerous, considering he can cover a fourth of FD in 15-17 frames :/

random tidbit for people not too familiar with the matchup:

Spindash is NOT a good direct approach!

If you try to use them when your opponent is in a neutral state, your opponent can do mean things to you out of shield. Spindash>aerial is easily punished if shielded, and many characters can hit him out of it (beat out, not clang) with projectiles.

That said, you should mainly use spindashes for lag. Startup, ending, landing, and online lag. But offline, don't overabuse it - you'll get destroyed by anyone familiar with the matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its best to ignore people like Flamingo since they're just flame baiting anyway.
Since we agree on the going ons on the matchup would it be agreeable to suggest 60:40 in Sheik's advantage?

I haven't really played many Sheik users who switch to Zelda so i cannot really comment on when they are combined.

 

[Tenki]

Just think of Zelda as solving all of Sheik's KO problems :<

Transformation tends to be done if you flub a KO move and send Sheik high above/off-stage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I usually pursue with a spincharge jump and process to harass since the transformation takes a bit moving from Sheik to zelda and Zelda doesn't do so very well in the air 9thugh when her aerials do connect it does tend to hurt quite a bit T_T)

 

[Anther]

lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxwKRyrBmww

 

[Tenki]

lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxwKRyrBmww

Haha, yeah.

Me: *gets hit by fourth spindash in a row* ...Wait, what am I doing? *needle*
Anther: *gets hit out of spindash*
Me: I forgot I had this thing!
Anther: Oh no!

lol.

cool@pshielding then grabbing chain. I lol'd when you waited for Ankoku to laugh (OFFGUARD!) and then ran in and broke the chain camp.

Ryoko's version was like, spacing the chain near max range, then chain dragging aggressively (not spinning) whenever I was inside it.

 

[Kinzer]

Sorry Anther, did I name-drop you?

Anyway I kind of feel the Sonic/Sheik matchup being 65/35 in Sheik's favor, but I said 60/40 just because more people agree on this... is there something I'm missing or am I underating Sonic and his Steak?

 

[Anther]

I was name dropped pages ago, it's all good =].

 

[Zankoku]

It's definitely in Sheik's favor, I just don't know by how much.

Again, I'm incompetent with the chain.

 

[Tenki]

Sheik's startup lag is superior to Sonic, but her duration and ending lag are still very punishable in Sonic terms. There's also the whole off-stage thing though. Needles stop spindashes, but like I mentioned, it's a really bad habit to try to start spindashes either long range or when your opponent isn't going to be in some sort of projected lag. And chain is only really a problem on certain platform stages.

Anther might have something there with pshielding the chain camp, but I'm not sure if either of our examples (Ryoko's perfect chain//Anther breaking through) are 100% valid lol.

Like I said last time, Ryoko poked out towards max range first, then chaindragged when I was inside. But conversely, it was online so even when I did powershield it, I held shield for far too long, so I couldn't see if it was possible to punish OoS.

Anther pshielded and punished right away but Ankoku didn't exactly chaindrag often, it was more of flailing the chain wildly when he was in-range.

iono, maybe the An-team can go confirm/deconfirm this legend of the perfect chain camp :<

or just answer this:
If you pshield 1 hit of chain, does it grant you temporary invulnerability against its other hits?

 

[Zankoku]

To answer your question, no.

 

[Kinzer]

Okay, now I'll post something that people can agree on.

Battlefield is a big no-no, but are there any other counterpicks that Sonic would want to avoid if possible?

Seems like with the same things, Green Greens can be of some trouble... Jungle Japes as always (I hate that place anyway), and perhaps Weegee's pad/ Halberd/ etc.

Wait a minute... there are a lot of stages with non-moving platforms that Sheik can abuse on Sonic, we have NOTHING to counter that except the competence of the Sheik player...

What do we do, I feel all we CAN DO is just start charging SpinCharge to it's fullest, time it somewhat carefully, and hope we go around fast enough...



Pessimism out of the way, what stages does Sheik do below-average on? Any stages Sonic would want to go to maybe?

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik does below average on stages she can't have full control over. That would be uhh...

Corneria... Distant Planet..... well basically any stage that's probably banned in the East Coast for being stupid lol.

 

[Anther]

Maybe in sheik's favor by a smidgen. I think if I played a less loosey goosey style ... the matchup would get a lot sexier for sonic. And I the absence of an abundance of platforms makes the match less sheik's advantage, since needles are a bit annoying for the way I'd want to play sonic against the lady.

Just run around powershielding. XD, but if she spams dtilt you're screwed.

 

[Kinzer]

What do you mean full control Koku?

If we take a look on Corneria, can't Sheik just play the same Chain-camp game under Fin? And isn't Sheik's lack of K.O. moves (don't hurt me I don't play Sheik, I just fight them) supplied by Corneria's natural blastzones? (Eh Sonic gains the same benefit there.)

Although mentioning Distant Planet, I see Delfino Plaza as a useable CP.

Neither Sheik or Sonic have a Spike, so both can't abuse the water AS WELL. Some of the walkoff stages might make Sheik's "combos" killmoves, assuming they can carry Sonic with them to the blastzones, but this is effey. Sheik's fastfall doesn't really allow for heavy under-platform gaming, So Sonic is somewhat safe when the stage takes off, and etc.

There's Delfino Plaza, and then there's Final Destination with all the room/SV for the same reasons.

Long Story short, Sheik has a LOT more places she can take Sonic than vice-versa... and here I thought Sonic had no bad stages (with the exception of JJ/Pictochat/any stages the Sonic PLAYER doesn't prefer)

Edit: Anther, you can't talk like that, you're an elitist now, tell them how much less Sonic sucks!!

Also Needles seem to only prove a nuisance for normal Sonic play, but this is Sonic we're talking about, and Needles have a bit of commitment to them.

Personally, you gotta prefer the air for this one.

 

[Zankoku]

Basically whacked out terrain makes it harder to aim Sheik's relatively precise attacks, and things that force fighting on an angle aren't so good either.

 

[Tenki]

If we take a look on Corneria, can't Sheik just play the same Chain-camp game under Fin? And isn't Sheik's lack of K.O. moves (don't hurt me I don't play Sheik, I just fight them) supplied by Corneria's natural blastzones? (Eh Sonic gains the same benefit there.)

She can't do it under the fin. I think you can use the hanging ledge thing to get some invincyframes then drop a spring overhead or something like that.

chaincamping is only theoretically unbreakable if Sheik is in a position where Sonic can't drop a spring overhead.


edit:

Anther, do you ever side-B before you double jump when recovering? o_O;

 

[Anther]

A lot actually. It's my pseudo spinshot ;_;.
I started doing it probably the day after those vids were recorded though. I incorporate really slowly XD.

 

[Tenki]

Oh.

Those recent vids of you were like "oh i'm near the KO wall" --> "i'll just double jump now while i'm really far from the stage"

;_;

 

[ShadowLink84]

XD I like spinshotting even though its worse than sideB~double jump

 

[thecatinthehat]

I remember back in the day. When we would spinshot instead of sideb > DJ to recover. Just to prove that we could. lol

So the actual matchup... I'd say 60-40 Sheik?

 

[Anther]

Sweet, turns out not being bale to spinshot has worked out to my advantage XD.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anther stay as Pikachu or you risk getting Dtilted.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Anther stay as Pikachu or you risk getting Dtilted.

I see what you did there.. ...


Anther... spinshot is still pretty handy. I'd suggest learning it. It's good for approaches. Hell, I think I use it more for approaching rather than recovery.

 

[Anther]

It's just so hard...

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's just so hard...

The A button also acts like the Y.
Press B then A and you'll spinshot easily.

its very useful against some characters.

 

[Kinzer]

This thread is now the "help Anther encorperate Spinshot" thread. GET TO IT!

So yeah, there's that, and then is there somewhere that explains the whole matchup with Sheik/Zelda put together? Either way it's somewhere between 55-45 and 65-35 for sure.

 

[Browny]

try this method:
down + press b ONCE, c-stick in the direction you want to jump.

That works in the air and on the ground. Its like the easiest tech ever :O the other method (where you jump immediately out of a side b) is much harder imo

 

[Tenki]

try this method:
down + press b ONCE, c-stick in the direction you want to jump.

That works in the air and on the ground. Its like the easiest tech ever :O the other method (where you jump immediately out of a side b) is much harder imo

that only works if he's rising. otherwise he'll fastfall ;__;

if he doesn't want to fastfall, he'd better learn the side-B version lol.

imo the Sheik matchup is between 60-40 and 65-35.

probably 65-35 if you take into account Sheik--> Zelda because Zelda makes up for Sheik's kill-move problems.


edit/reply to Gf2tw:
Tap jump on?
That won't work with tap jump off.
10 anther s

 

[Jim Morrison]

I find Spinshotting with Side-B + up on control stick easier than A D:

 

[thecatinthehat]

For the Side-B, I usually use down on the c-stick. IDK... there's something about the c-stick that makes timing AT's a piece of cake. Like, it's the same way with DACUS.

 

[demodemo]

how did this thread get so many replies in like two days..

 

[Kinzer]

You're acting like you're surprised.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic invasion.

Yea Tenki, I ALWAYS play with tap jump on.

 

[Tristan_win]

how did this thread get so many replies in like two days..

This is the power that will raise sonic up the tier list demo, sonic sucks balls but he has a fan base so strong that eventually he will be in mid tier just because of placements.

It's gonna happen, just you wait.

 

[East]

So then Sheik's do we agree that it is better to solo with sheik against sonic?

And everyone, can we come to the conclusion that Sheik vs. Sonic is a 60:40 in Sheik's favor?

And will someone please tell me what the heck steak is about? It might be important in the matchup.

 

[M@v]

I agree with the 60:40. Its pretty funny that sheik's needles Slap sonic's approaches across the face. I usually stay sheilk vs sonic, but switching to Zelda for kills isnt a bad thing.

 

[Blistering Speed]

This is the power that will raise sonic up the tier list demo, sonic sucks balls but he has a fan base so strong that eventually he will be in mid tier just because of placements.

It's gonna happen, just you wait.

Smashboards isn't a representation of the tournament scene. Although the Sonic boards spam the place up with steak, the amount of Sonic users in tournament is still very limited.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree with the 60:40. Its pretty funny that sheik's needles Slap sonic's approaches across the face. I usually stay sheilk vs sonic, but switching to Zelda for kills isnt a bad thing.

Read the topic you'll see needles only stop Sonic when he does things that are generally not good to do.

So then Sheik's do we agree that it is better to solo with sheik against sonic?

And everyone, can we come to the conclusion that Sheik vs. Sonic is a 60:40 in Sheik's favor?

And will someone please tell me what the heck steak is about? It might be important in the matchup.

Agreed on matchup ratio.
As for steak it is a joke on boxob.

He said he was going out with Sonic and would bring back a winning steak.
he meant winning streak but yeah.

Sonic boards do love steak but they are knowledgeable most of the time.