Sonic vs. Lucario

[Chis]

Why did they make a separate thread for this and not just wait for Lucario's turn in match up thread?

 

[TwinkleToes]

Then whats the point in bringing him up hahaha

I'm sure he has an amazing Sonic but if he's one of the best Sonic's and he still can't win tournies then that should tell you something.

Right. It tells you that Sonic sucks. Thank you captain obvious.

 

[Napilopez]

Not sure how your opinion on this matchup changed so drastically in only 3 weeks.

Buuuut...

I'm 2500 miles away from you. I'm sure we would have sweet intercourse with wifilag.

Oh, my opinion changed based on my perspective on the matchup and my abilities mostly. Because I was a very aerial based Sonic, with an only average groundgame involving mostly spindashes/spincharges. After playing some better Sonics however, I realized the importance of Sonic's grab game to add to his ability on the ground. Since I started doing much more out of grabs and capitalizing on Sonic's speed, and less trying to fight lucario in the air, this match-up seems much less troublesome.

Anyways, I've actually had better connections with people in the west coast than east coast peeps, lol. I have a very good internet connection. Also, if the match only has input delay and isn't "laggy" then its not such a big deal. Id rather have a half second input delay than have a match with a sporadic connection. Although Sonic is admittedly one of the characters most impacted by wi-fi lag, because of his running speed and the precision often required to use him correctly.

I'll play any lucario. Friendlies, and no attitudes. I just really want to know more about this match-up.

 

[Chis]

> Lucario mainers: >
> Sonic mainers: >

Never ending war

Thanks who ever made this topic, just when we start to be productive you make at topic like this. Next time post this in the correct thread and do not waste thread space.

 

[jogues_street]

A few mains from this board have gotten me interested in what the general opinion of this matchup is like.

Discuss.

I would say that it would be Sonic that would win and not just because he's my favourite character also because he's fast and lucario moves like me-two but mew-two is no good!!!!!

 

[Napilopez]

Lol, what jogues said. That made me lol.

Edit: Oh and Jogues dude person, Lucario runs. Mewto just floated/flew.

 

[MarKO X]

KID I don't even see you on this list.

The only Sonics I see placing are like 8th or 9th place out of 20 lol.

Clearly, he's the player named Goggles. He uses both Sonic and Lucario, he places well, and that's why he feels this can up his credibility, which it should. Being number 6 in your area isn't bad at all.

 

[Chis]

KID I don't even see you on this list.

The only Sonics I see placing are like 8th or 9th place out of 20 lol.

Puffball64. I don't need to say anymore except that you clearly haven't done your homework on Sonic at all and just came to the Sonic board with assumptions.

 

[R4ZE]

90% of sonic boards doesnt know jack **** about sonic, i woudlnt expect any one who mains any other chars to know anything either.

 

[Napilopez]

Puffball64. I don't need to say anymore except that you clearly haven't done your homework on Sonic at all and just came to the Sonic board with assumptions.

Sorry Chis, but I don't think theres any need to attack Timbers. While he did make some blatantly incorect assumptions about Sonic, he simply wanted the opinion on the match-up from the Sonic Boards point of view, and then suddenly this erupted into a Sonic-Lucario boards rivalry, lol. I am pretty sure that he was saying he only sees Sonic's placing 8th or 9th out of 20 on that the list KID posted, and not in general. He himself acknowledged 3000 as a respectable Sonic.

But Yea.

 

[Chis]

Not really attacking. It just seems like this is going nowhere and why didn't they wait for Lucario's turn in the community machup discussion thread.

 

[Tenki]

> Lucario mainers: >
> Sonic mainers: >

Never ending war

Thanks who ever made this topic, just when we start to be productive you make at topic like this. Next time post this in the correct thread and do not waste thread space.

It's more like

Lucario mainers: > > >
Sonic fanboys: >
Sober Sonic mains: >

fixed.

 

[BloodGod22]

I think Lucario is overrated....
But thats my 2 cents.

 

[Napilopez]

Congrats on your first post.

Spoiler

10+1 posts

 

[ShadowLink84]

no he hasn't

He has won 2 two of which he beat out Sethlon's Falco.

pity they aren't more recent things have been quiet as of late.

In anycase Samuelson what about the other Lucario mains that don't place 1st?
So far only blood and Azen so does this mean all the other Lucario's suck since they don't win as consistently?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Because..Aurasphere...sucks..

*Snerk* Uh, no. It doesn't. And even if it did, that still wouldn't be an applicable argument. Want to know why? Because even if Aura Sphere sucked (It doesn't, and you're an idiot if you think it does), it would still be infinitely better than any tool Sonic has to force an approach from Lucario, because he has NONE.

Why the hell do I have to explain this to you? It's pretty common sense.

It's more like

Lucario mainers: > > >
Sonic fanboys: >
Sober Sonic mains: >

fixed.

Hahaha.

For my part: As I mentioned before, my only issue is with the Sonics who think this is a neutral matchup. (I don't think anyone has actually gone so far to suggest Sonic has the advantage, although that would be humorous) I'm pretty sure anyone reasonable will agree Lucario has the advantage here. I, for one, haven't given any comments as to how large that advantage is, because I don't like assigning numbers to matchups. Alls I'm sayin' is, it's not neutral.

 

[Umby]

Enter ShadowLink84, who potentially forces everyone to make tl;dr posts.

 

[ROOOOY!]

*Snerk* Uh, no. It doesn't. And even if it did, that still wouldn't be an applicable argument. Want to know why? Because even if Aura Sphere sucked (It doesn't, and you're an idiot if you think it does), it would still be infinitely better than any tool Sonic has to force an approach from Lucario, because he has NONE.

Why the hell do I have to explain this to you? It's pretty common sense.

Ugh.
Dig this. Aurasphere is a pile of ass and fail from long range. Sonic doesn't have to approach because AS's from long range aren't an issue because they're easily avoided if you have two functioning limbs and aren't pants on head ********.
That means to a certain extent that Lucario will have to come close-ish to start using Aurasphere's effectively. Even then, Sonic's ground speed and air speed via spinshotting means you don't have to get blue sphere's of gay in your face.
Aurasphere's suck against Sonic. I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise.

 

[Umby]

I dunno. Lord dguy did something against me a while ago, I believe, and it was something like SH Aura Sphere to another Aurasphere. I imagine now I could still dash and shield the lower sphere, but on the fly when I'm trying to Spinshot, that can stop me in my tracks for a second.

 

[Timbers]

these noob lucario mains just probly havent fought a sonic that knows "what mean ASC" ... because it pretty much ***** lucario. in regards to sonics kill moves... if your talking about from the middle of the stage.. ASC(fresh), dsmash, bair, and fsmash are the best. chase kills included? he has dair, fair, uair, and HA to tac on in that case.
lucario is hard to approach with uair, but all the other stuff really hurts him.
sonics strong point is where lucarios weakness is, and that is off-stage. sonic is fast enuff to avoid all the other crap that lucario has. sonic may have a harder time approaching lucario than other character (not by much), but how is a lucario supposed to approach a sonic eh?

on a side note. dark sonic, i will be at the next gigs.. I challange you to a game of chance. (i will probly lose becuzz i suck at sonic dittos)

but for the sake of improvemnt anyway.

you're an idiot

Because..Aurasphere...sucks..

nonono.

Why did they make a separate thread for this and not just wait for Lucario's turn in match up thread?

because you guys are on week #4. Lucario is on the last week. Do you really think I was going to wait until next May for you guys to do this matchup lolol?

Puffball64. I don't need to say anymore except that you clearly haven't done your homework on Sonic at all and just came to the Sonic board with assumptions.

you're an idiot.

Ugh.
Dig this. Aurasphere is a pile of ass and fail from long range. Sonic doesn't have to approach because AS's from long range aren't an issue because they're easily avoided if you have two functioning limbs and aren't pants on head ********.
That means to a certain extent that Lucario will have to come close-ish to start using Aurasphere's effectively. Even then, Sonic's ground speed and air speed via spinshotting means you don't have to get blue sphere's of gay in your face.
Aurasphere's suck against Sonic. I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise.

aurasphere is terrible at longrange.

Sonic still can't ever force an approach. I think this is more ridiculous than Ike mains claiming they force Lucario to approach because Lucario is incapable of just standing there.

And for however many times I've said this, stop assuming that aurasphere is a spammable projectile. It's only good when it's half-charged/full-charged. baby auraspheres are terrible.

 

[MarKO X]

Aurasphere is awesome, don't doubt it.

1st place finishes are irrelevant in a thread about a particular match-up, correct me if I'm wrong.

Tenki's logic analysis is pretty much correct. (When is he wrong?)

It's 70:30 on paper in favor of Lucario, and somewhere between 60:40 and 50:45 in favor of Lucario when good players are taken into account.

 

[Chis]

Timers you're an idiot because you insult people with backing your 5 word statements with FACTS

Now stop trolling and go back to school.

 

[ROOOOY!]

aurasphere is terrible at longrange.

Sonic still can't ever force an approach. I think this is more ridiculous than Ike mains claiming they force Lucario to approach because Lucario is incapable of just standing there.

And for however many times I've said this, stop assuming that aurasphere is a spammable projectile. It's only good when it's half-charged/full-charged. baby auraspheres are terrible.

I didn't particularly mean that Lucario has to approach. It's more him getting in range of Sonic's safer approaches because as we both agree Auraspheres from long range suck.

My main point is that I don't know how Auraspheres are going to ruin Sonic's approach. As you said, you can't spam them to cause that much of a barrage. Sure, they will on the odd occassion, but it's not even close to being consistant.
And once Sonic's up-close after he's approached, he outperforms Lucario.

Sonic'll have issues if he approaches hazardously and for some reason floats around mid-range, which is where Lucario is at his strongest.

 

[Timbers]

Sonic still has to approach Lucario headon. Luc's ftilt alone is enough to stop Sonic's grounded or shorthopped approach. Aurasphere is just there to keep Sonic from abusing his groundspeed. Obviously the additional damage that will come from this is a nice add-on. Spamming it is stupid. half/full charged is effective. This is true against any character.

 

[Timbers]

Timers you're an idiot because you insult people with backing your 5 word statements with FACTS

Now stop trolling and go back to school.

you're still an idiot and didn't read any of this topic.

You're not worth my time. If you want my "facts" then go read my posts.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Enter ShadowLink84, who potentially forces everyone to make tl;dr posts.Then beats them over the stick for actually making them

Added something to your post if you don't mind.

Sonic still has to approach Lucario headon. Luc's ftilt alone is enough to stop Sonic's grounded or shorthopped approach.

Woah no it isn't. mind you all of Sonic's approaches are cancelable. So if you plan to stop his Sh antics it won't affect him since he can isntantly go into another approach.

So when you pop out the Ftilt I can use my spincdash or ASC to plow right through.
Ftilt isn't enough to stop him,.
its Lucario's aerial game that has to be used because that is where Sonic is most effective.

Aurasphere is just there to keep Sonic from abusing his groundspeed.

At which point he can spinshot and cancel that spinshot into an ASC and get back onto the ground.

Aurasphere is okay in the matchup but not an excellent means of slowing down the ground movement.
I can always just spindash through it and continue towards you.

Obviously the additional damage that will come from this is a nice add-on. Spamming it is stupid. half/full charged is effective. This is true against any character.

The damage?
That depends on when the aurasphere hits.
A fully charged aurasphere will not break the spincharge or spindash unless Sonic has traveled roughly half the distane of FD.

No fighting please.

 

[Samuelson]

Because..Aurasphere...sucks..

Yeah! Aura Sphere is soooo bad, probably one of the worst projectiles in the game. Somebody needs allow this guy right here in the SBR.

 

[Samuelson]

In anycase Samuelson what about the other Lucario mains that don't place 1st?
So far only blood and Azen so does this mean all the other Lucario's suck since they don't win as consistently?

Dguy places top 5 consistantly. Stauffy has placed well but can't go to tournies anymore because he's of college. BoA used to place really well with Lucario but he stopped using him. I think djpwn places pretty good with Lucario also.

Sorry about the double post.

 

[Chis]

you're still an idiot and didn't read any of this topic.

You're not worth my time. If you want my "facts" then go read my posts.

And you're a bigger idiot for not using common sense and searching the first page for 2 seconds before making a pointless topic. Keep your Lucario spam to your own boards. The Sonic boards already have enough of spam thank you.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I didn't particularly mean that Lucario has to approach.

Then don't try to refute me when I say he doesn't.

What the hell is so hard about thinking before speaking for you folks?

And you're a bigger idiot for not using common sense and searching the first page for 2 seconds before making a pointless topic. Keep your Lucario spam to your own boards. The Sonic boards already have enough of spam thank you.

You haven't made one relevant or worthwhile post in this entire thread. Does that not qualify as spam somehow?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah! Aura Sphere is soooo bad, probably one of the worst projectiles in the game. Somebody needs allow this guy right here in the SBR.

Yeah, I'd explained myself later on.
I meant against Sonic. And this is because Aurasphere tries to stop Sonic's main 'strength' (ground speed) by using it. It doesn't help that Sonic's airspeed is about as good as his ground speed when spinshotted, and considering Aurasphere can't be spammed Lucario can't control the air and the ground approach at the same time.
So..yeah. STFU.

And for Timber who actually made a valid point other than being sarcastic and 100% useless, I agree that f-tilt creates a massive problem for Sonic. My ASC cuts through it when it wants to though, that move is weird.

 

[Timbers]

Added something to your post if you don't mind.


Woah no it isn't. mind you all of Sonic's approaches are cancelable. So if you plan to stop his Sh antics it won't affect him since he can isntantly go into another approach.

So when you pop out the Ftilt I can use my spincdash or ASC to plow right through.
Ftilt isn't enough to stop him,.
its Lucario's aerial game that has to be used because that is where Sonic is most effective.

At which point he can spinshot and cancel that spinshot into an ASC and get back onto the ground.

Aurasphere is okay in the matchup but not an excellent means of slowing down the ground movement.
I can always just spindash through it and continue towards you.

The damage?
That depends on when the aurasphere hits.
A fully charged aurasphere will not break the spincharge or spindash unless Sonic has traveled roughly half the distane of FD.

No fighting please.

I'm only talking about the approach options while grounded. I've already been over Luc's airgame. I'd say that Luc's fair is a better tool to counter Sonic's approach than his ftilt. I think you walked in during a bad part of this discussion though, so I won't hold it against you lol.

I don't understand these "I can just spindash through it" arguments. That's like me saying "I can always wait for you to spindash before using it."
Aurasphere is excellent only because it forces approach here. If Lucario was ever forced to go onto the approach in this matchup I wouldn't speaking as confidently as I do right now about the matchup being in Luc's favor. Luc has a better defensive game than he does an offensive one.

I hope you're not naive enough to say that Sonic is capable of dodging every aurasphere ever. It hinders Sonic's ground movement. Giant projectile coming towards you I think is enough reason to put your shield up, which brings you closer to Lucario, but still only "midrange."

Luc likes midrange.

Sonic has invincibility frames for half of FD? Lol where did you come up with that?

And you're a bigger idiot for not using common sense and searching the first page for 2 seconds before making a pointless topic. Keep your Lucario spam to your own boards. The Sonic boards already have enough of spam thank you.

Lucario is the last character on your matchup list.

You're currently on #5.

Get bent.

Yeah, I'd explained myself later on.
I meant against Sonic. And this is because Aurasphere tries to stop Sonic's main 'strength' (ground speed) by using it. It doesn't help that Sonic's airspeed is about as good as his ground speed when spinshotted, and considering Aurasphere can't be spammed Lucario can't control the air and the ground approach at the same time.
So..yeah. STFU.

And for Timber who actually made a valid point other than being sarcastic and 100% useless, I agree that f-tilt creates a massive problem for Sonic. My ASC cuts through it when it wants to though, that move is weird.

I don't know why a Lucario would ever throw an aurasphere at a grounded Sonic when he's far enough away to jump over it entirely and spinshot.

shorthopped baby auraspheres are always nice to throw out once in a while, and they do control space well. It's just they move too slow to use this in repetitions, and the BAS hold no priority at all to make it a risky tool when midrange isn't so midrange.

The ftilt hitbox probably wasn't out, or was already ended. The hitbox lingers for a pretty good while, but the 9 frame startup is still enough to be punished if the Lucario reacts too slowly.

 

[Chis]

How do I get bent?

This is why I love the internet. Being flamed by a stranger over a video game character. Good going. Good luck with your life!

 

[Youko]

Since you all can't discuss anything without flaming each other, you are causing problems and avoiding the warning we gave earlier.

 

[Napilopez]

People here please, stop fighting like little kids and lets try to have an intelligent discussion

I'm only talking about the approach options while grounded. I've already been over Luc's airgame. I'd say that Luc's fair is a better tool to counter Sonic's approach than his ftilt. I think you walked in during a bad part of this discussion though, so I won't hold it against you lol.

I don't understand these "I can just spindash through it" arguments. That's like me saying "I can always wait for you to spindash before using it."
Aurasphere is excellent only because it forces approach here. If Lucario was ever forced to go onto the approach in this matchup I wouldn't speaking as confidently as I do right now about the matchup being in Luc's favor. Luc has a better defensive game than he does an offensive one.

I hope you're not naive enough to say that Sonic is capable of dodging every aurasphere ever. It hinders Sonic's ground movement. Giant projectile coming towards you I think is enough reason to put your shield up, which brings you closer to Lucario, but still only "midrange."

Luc likes midrange.

Sonic has invincibility frames for half of FD? Lol where did you come up with that?

I don't know why a Lucario would ever throw an aurasphere at a grounded Sonic when he's far enough away to jump over it entirely and spinshot.

shorthopped baby auraspheres are always nice to throw out once in a while, and they do control space well. It's just they move too slow to use this in repetitions, and the BAS hold no priority at all to make it a risky tool when midrange isn't so midrange.

The ftilt hitbox probably wasn't out, or was already ended. The hitbox lingers for a pretty good while, but the 9 frame startup is still enough to be punished if the Lucario reacts too slowly.

First of all timbers, I'm apologizing for the "blatantly incorrect assumptions" part. It was too harsh and not truly indicative of what I meant to say. I meant to say you came in here with some misinformation/lack of information. And you are correct to say that the Sonic mains had false assumptions as well, although I wouldn't say we had most. More of a balanced lack of knowledge, lol. Anyways, I'd like to intelligently discuss this match-up, in a friendly matter. Really, admitting that we have a disadvantage would help us in the match-up anyways.

I just don't think the disadvantage is great.

Now onto your points, you are correct that auraspehre forces an approach. Sonic will eventually have to move, which is fine by me. And you are also correct in that Sonic won't dodge every single aurasphere.

"I don't understand these "I can just spindash through it" arguments. That's like me saying "I can always wait for you to spindash before using it.""

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but In the time it takes you to release an aurasphere, Sonic can release a spindash, so I don't quite see the validity of your argument here. Unless you're trying to combo into an AS or something, but in that case its not an aurasphere specific thing.

Baby aurasphere can be annoying if shorthopped. Not a big issue, but it can sometimes yield a free small amount of damage.

Also, Shadowlink was not implying that he has invincibility frames for half of FD, rather that for about the distance of half of FD, Sonic's spins have enough priority to clang with an aurasphere, although I think its more like a third. Most of the claims of sonics low priority, at least on the ground, come from people using spindashes from way too far and after they have been staled too much. Otherwise, spindashes have the ability to clang with a ton of moves.

And yea Im about to leave to home, so hopefully I can play one of you guys once I get there XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dguy places top 5 consistantly. Stauffy has placed well but can't go to tournies anymore because he's of college. BoA used to place really well with Lucario but he stopped using him. I think djpwn places pretty good with Lucario also.

Sorry about the double post.

Have they won consistently? Earlier you were saying that because 3000 hasn't won many times may mean he is not good he also has among the lesser amount of tournament placements.

meanwhile you have X who has placed in the top 8 consistently no but has won less times than 3000.

Again the argument you provided was that if a sonic user hasn't won, this would mean the user sucked.

I'm only talking about the approach options while grounded. I've already been over Luc's airgame. I'd say that Luc's fair is a better tool to counter Sonic's approach than his ftilt. I think you walked in during a bad part of this discussion though, so I won't hold it against you lol.

Eh I walked in when you were speaking about grounded options so I mentioned it.
hence I also mentioned in my post about Luc's airgame.

I don't understand these "I can just spindash through it" arguments. That's like me saying "I can always wait for you to spindash before using it."
Aurasphere is excellent only because it forces approach here. If Lucario was ever forced to go onto the approach in this matchup I wouldn't speaking as confidently as I do right now about the matchup being in Luc's favor. Luc has a better defensive game than he does an offensive one.

You do not understand the statement do you?
if Sonic is in midrange and you bring out an aurasphere, sonic has enough priority during the spindash to break through it and get in close to lucario.
hence it is not a really good move to use against Sonic.
it isn't, you hold it until I spindash.
its you release I break it and get in close.
If you don't release it you don't release it and I am free to continue on as I would.

Lucario is not forced to approach but his defensive game relies on zoning the opponent so he can maintain an advantage.
Sonic on the other hand is very adept at spacing and can get around many of Lucario's tools.
Hence the statement from earlier.

I hope you're not naive enough to say that Sonic is capable of dodging every aurasphere ever. It hinders Sonic's ground movement. Giant projectile coming towards you I think is enough reason to put your shield up, which brings you closer to Lucario, but still only "midrange."

I'll ignore the first statement cause it was just stupid.

yeah big giant projectile coming at you. What do I do? That depends on the character.
For Sonic this is not a major issue for him.
Its method is to force the approach as you said, and zone the opponent, but because Sonic can break the aurasphere instead of simply avoiding it, he has many more options.
Aurasphere is good but doesn't work as well in this amtchup.

Luc likes midrange.

Sonic likes close range.

Sonic has invincibility frames for half of FD? Lol where did you come up with that?

i dislike addressing stupid things like this but I feel it necessary otherwise it will get out of hand.
I stated that aurasphere won't BREAK the spincharge/dash until the distance because of priority. It will clang it won't break.
If i was talking about invincibility frames why even bother mentioning aurasphere breaking the spincharge?

Lucario is the last character on your matchup list.

You're currently on #5.

Get bent.

This means what exactly?
Whatever doesn't matter, the whole point was that its best not to mention the matchup until the sonic forums get to it.
mainly for two reasons.

1.There is not information.
2.It is better to have the collective knowledge rather than having people spread out.

If we had Olimar, Lucario and peach going on at the same time it would be a bit more of an issue. Considering there aren't that many peiople with the experience of those matchups they would take even lnger.

Chis should not have spoken so heatedly.

I don't know why a Lucario would ever throw an aurasphere at a grounded Sonic when he's far enough away to jump over it entirely and spinshot.

No need to jump just spinshot.
The ground baby auraspher eis what they meant as mentioned in a post earlier.

shorthopped baby auraspheres are always nice to throw out once in a while, and they do control space well. It's just they move too slow to use this in repetitions, and the BAS hold no priority at all to make it a risky tool when midrange isn't so midrange.

ther eis also the issue that Sonic can Sh a Fair and break it which isn't so nice either since it means letting Sonic close the gap.

The ftilt hitbox probably wasn't out, or was already ended. The hitbox lingers for a pretty good while, but the 9 frame startup is still enough to be punished if the Lucario reacts too slowly.

No it actually cuts through it but that is due to some weird properties of the ASC.
This does occur less often when the move has been used repeatedly though.

Then don't try to refute me when I say he doesn't.

What the hell is so hard about thinking before speaking for you folks?

What is so hard about reading?

He corrected himself earlier saying he did NOT mean Lucario had to approach. he meant that Lucario had to move a bit to keep Sonic in midrange.

 

[ShadowLink84]

**** compy of mine

 

[Timbers]

Shadowlink, I'm going to have to refuse responding to the majority of that, as most of it is based on the assumption that spincharge is capable of breaking through full auraspheres.

It can't.

At 0%, full aurasphere clanks with Sonic's fully charged sideB, when he's travelled about 1/8 of FD.

Uncharged sideB's are outprioritized by full auraspheres at any percent.

For things unrelated to that assumption:

-I could have sworn you guys were using Jeepy's chart layout for your matchup thread (Lucario being the last on this list). I guess I'm thinking of another board. Regardless, I have no desire to know about Sonic's other matchups, which is why I'm not going to wait for a discussion on it.

EDIT: Oh nevermind you are:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510

 

[Xsyven]

Lucario mains suck.