Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[~TBS~]

sonic is complex. very complex. and i need confirmation on this. pit is technical, but a good sonic will find out a way to get out and around that.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't know how technical Pit can be, but I know that being able to know every single bit of Sonic is hard enough on it's own, but to be able to keep track of all of it in combat... myeargh...

 

[ROOOOY!]

, i do believe pit is a more Technical character then sonic but not saying he is absolutly better....
What do yall think?

You were so close to being good too. I actually agreed with the rest of your post and agreed on the ratio, but then you said that.

GG.

 

[infomon]

ROOOOY, what do you find wrong with that statement?

 

[Browny]

i think pit has a small advantage... only coz when i play a certain pit mainer on wifi (the only one in know, offline included), i can get generally 2-3 stock his other mains but his pit gets me down to 1 stock too often for me to feel comfortable with the matchup, and i know im a great deal better than this player.

so meh. i know my experience is limited lol. in be4 wifi means nothing, but its all ive got to work with atm

 

[ROOOOY!]

@ Infzy

The 'more technical character' part.
Fairy boy has no AT's outside his Paulentas Bow, and even they're pretty ineffectual against most characters. Sonic has more technical depth in his Down B then Pit does in his whole moveset.

 

[Kinzer]

Inb4needsmoarPitmatchupexperience.

10 Falcon Ponchos.

 

[Conti]

@ Infzy

The 'more technical character' part.
Fairy boy has no AT's outside his Paulentas Bow, and even they're pretty ineffectual against most characters. Sonic has more technical depth in his Down B then Pit does in his whole moveset.

Oh and im sorry i completely disagreee with that... Pit Has Alot of AT's you probably have not gone against a more advanced pit, A Beginner that uses pit plays like that (i sure as hell did, i was a f'ing sniper all i did was arrow and like run around and FSmash... I Stunk)... now to a comment to what i was saying before you got me a little wrong...

Sonic is technical, i never said he wasnt, i tried him for like a week, he to me is very hard to control his movement because ... well hes sonic lol =]
but a good player that can control his movement, use the B attacks and such, for mindgames (like my freind, he can be very unpredictable sometimes) like some of you here make sonic technical... Ill look at some sonic threads check out what Sonic has to offer compaired to what i have seen with pit and get back to you all...

NOTE: the only reason why i dont like this kind of thread is because 95% of us here is just really good with our main and never cared to look at the techniques of the other characer (i know i didnt =\)

 

[Kinzer]

Why not just tell us the most common AT's a Pit is going to be using in real combat, spare us the one-in-a-millions.

Be reasonable, if you do, We'll start pulling useless ATs out our *** too if we see something that shouldn't be happening too often if ever, like Pit's DTilt spike.

 

[Conti]

Lol, Pit's Dtilt, is mainly used as a combo starter (sheild pokes too), i have used that in an edgeguard sometimes, but it does work... but back to what i was looking into...

Well i read 3 of your sonic guides and 3 Pit guides, Compaired them, and well... (here comes to flames, please be nice...) Pit has more the More Technical Aspect...

If you dont beileve me here are some links to 3Sonic Guides, 3Pit Guides and A Couple Technique instruction Videos For Pit and Sonic... Look and Compair, and please understand that i do beileve Sonic is a good character, he just isnt as technical of a player as Pit... (No Flames Please)

Sonic Guides:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190101 (Sonic Threads Offical Guide)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184030 (pretty good)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154329
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209326

Pit Guides:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181610 (Pit Threads Offical Guide [Note All the Advanced Tech Stuff Have Their Own Threads If You Click on their links with videos on How-to])
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177160(I liked this one)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152567

Technique Videos (Sonic)


EDIT:NOT DONE have to eat dinner =]

 

[Camalange]

Why not just tell us the most common AT's a Pit is going to be using in real combat, spare us the one-in-a-millions.

Be reasonable, if you do, We'll start pulling useless ATs out our *** too if we see something that shouldn't be happening too often if ever, like Pit's DTilt spike.

:/

We don't care if you have MORE, we care about how many of those are actually commonly used.

 

[Kinzer]

We got each others' backs, huh Camal?

We're too good.

 

[Camalange]

We got each others' backs, huh Camal?

We're too good.

True dat.

I appreciate Conti's efforts though, he actually seems intelligent :D
I just wanted to make sure he was aware that having commonly used ATs is more important than just having a lot of useless ATs.

 

[Conti]

:/

We don't care if you have MORE, we care about how many of those are actually commonly used.

If someone use same attacks commonly, then that someone is a bad brawl player (not sayn u are bad im saying a player who does common stuff)...
I variate everything, you use ur B moves to make people guess what you may do,where you might go, i might Wingdash and change up my movement, and either move up or back off, using an arrows or F-tilt or something...
Your currently asking basically the skill level of a player, and like any character, they become unpredicatable as they variate their attacks... thats what makes a good player, thats how mindgames are even created, unpredicatablity... Thats why i dont like these types of threads because its like a lost cause, i beileve im right, you beileve ur right, its like the same thing in real life with views on religion and politic and ect...
So if you would like for me to tell you what i use most commonly here is a simple thread which i overlooked i do most of this as well as much more... (look at second post)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190383

I also have to say there are some useless AT's with pit, but you work around them...
At 1st i thought Pits Dair was useless but it is a good combo starter for getting someone off the ground into the air, Some of his attacks may seem uselss but its just something you have to adjust to...

 

[ROOOOY!]

...
I'll let Kinzer and Camalange handle this because they're pretty steak.

I'll just go ahead and say.

(From your main guide which is the AT Index :

Pit Specific Advance Techniques

*Arrow Looping
* Infinite jump (Wing refresh/renewal)
* Wing Canceling
* Wing Dashing

Pit specific "tricks" (They do have uses)

* Angelic Step, The
*Angel Ring Technique (ART)
*Gliding Techs
* Wing Landing


Dude I knew of all of these, I actually suspected that there may be more lol. Half of those are pretty pointless, anyway.

Like I said before, I'll use the techs in Sonic's down B to compare.

ASC
ASCSC
Spinshot
VSDJ
SDR
SDJ

And like...loads more I'm forgetting because I'm busy doing something else. Nothing against you or anything kid, but I would say anybody who fully understood or at least had general advanced knowledge of each character would say that Sonic is way more technical then Pit.

But to be honest, I don't really care :\

 

[Kinzer]

WTH is ASCSC? I've never heard of that and I play Sonic.

Also I thought SDR was just a silly acronym to describe the rolling motion Sonic does once he releases SC or lands the SD hop.

But this is just Spin attacks alone, we have a way to get more horizontal distance of Sping by just airdodging. There's more of course, but that's the most memorable trick I know right now.

And then there are the bad "ATs", like air-tripping. :/

also Roy, does that mean I can post Haunter now?

 

[Conti]

This is hard as hell, i sorta dont care as well... one thing i should stress is...

Player Skill > Character Ability

(also as a note, those are just like B move Techniques, there are Techs with A moves but idk, dont feel like looking for a guide by this point)
Pit is Capable of alot of things, Sonic is capable of alot of things, their playstyles are COMPLETELY Different,
I have to fight a sonic every week, he is always a challenge but i know what to expect, Him and I have many long battles because of the mindgames and such we do...

Oh and i Love Sonics ASC... that is a good move, i wish pit had something similar to that...

So GF, I Tried and i hope everyone understands that compairing characters is like one of those things that is hard to accomplish... (lol like i said with Religious views, its pretty much one of those types of things)... I Enjoy my pit and will probly never switch my main ever, just as many of you will remain sonic for a long time... Thats pretty much all i have to say

 

[Camalange]

If someone use same attacks commonly, then that someone is a bad brawl player (not sayn u are bad im saying a player who does common stuff)...
I variate everything, you use ur B moves to make people guess what you may do,where you might go, i might Wingdash and change up my movement, and either move up or back off, using an arrows or F-tilt or something...

Mkay...but I'm not referring to using the same moves over and over. That DOES relate to player skill (someone not knowing how to do tilts) but I mean Sonic has ATs that he RELIES on to win a match. I guarantee any Sonic that doesn't use ASC, Spinshot, SideB cancel, etc. at this point of Sonic's metagame are scrubs.

Now if you could share WHICH ATs are important to Pit's game, then I'd be more than happy to discuss them. But things like Wingdashing and Arrow-Looping are very situational things.

 

[Kinzer]

What's GF mean now?

regardless, the community (or rather the few people actually participating in this matchup discussion) can more or less agree this matchup is even, neither have any favor, it's all about player skill and who is better at mindgames/working around the opponents' character's brickwalls.

No johns.

 

[Conti]

Mkay...but I'm not referring to using the same moves over and over. That DOES relate to player skill (someone not knowing how to do tilts) but I mean Sonic has ATs that he RELIES on to win a match. I guarantee any Sonic that doesn't use ASC, Spinshot, SideB cancel, etc. at this point of Sonic's metagame are scrubs.

Now if you could share WHICH ATs are important to Pit's game, then I'd be more than happy to discuss them. But things like Wingdashing and Arrow-Looping are very situational things.

Ok before i answer this Quote, GF is kinda like GG... (GG=Good Game, GF=Good Fight).. its like the same meaning... if you ever played runescape (yes that crappy game) you'd know what GF means =]

Ok now i rely on a couple things, this is saying if im going for a KO i guess... oh and i RARELY Arrow Loop, i feel it is useless, because well its very situational and well idk doesnt work effective...
Well to start off I go for back airs alot, which my opponent will normally block but it will position me for a F Air or DSmash.... (basic)... I use WingDashing to position myself for FTilts, D Smashes, Shorthop Bairs or even just to position my oppoenent closer to the edge (WoI has like a wind push effect, pushes people kinda like squirtles Water gun)... Glideshifting is amazing, because glides are very useful for K0'ing... Glideshift is awsome because its a very quick move that changes pits positioning for where my opponent thinks i will be alot... F Throw off edge, i like to K0 by edgeguarding, either wasting ones jumps with my arrows (say if its metaknight) using Wing Renewal WoI to fly up to my opponent and F Air... idk alot of player movement adjustments, like Pivioting... Angelic Step (which i havent mastered idk why)... idk Dair to Uair can K0 aswell... I do whatever i need to, to position myself for a good combo or k0, buncha junk..I do use my arrows but not spam like, just to force someone to powersheild or start a combo, very good for being Aggressive or Defensive... I beleive alot of pit is Player Adjustment...

 

[Chis]

I suggest we move on to another character now.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[ROOOOY!]

ASCSC = Aerial Spin Charge Shield Cancel.

I'm like the only one to call it that, which is a shame really, because acronyms are funfunfun.

And Kinzer, you've been allowed to post haunter for ages. Boxob gave everyone in the sbr permission to, as long as they don't suck.

I play melee, so therefore don't suck.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rooooy needs to stop being a ****.

pit is mad technical.

pit and oli are the 2 characters that come to my mind when i think of characters possibly more complicated than sonic.

point is, pits ATs are very "niche"y as in they all have there place.
But because certain people either cant or dont do certain ATs and because of teh vast array of playstyles for the two characters, this match really comes down to player skill moreso than most matches in the game.

50-50

 

[ROOOOY!]

no u
. .

 

[Kinzer]

Olimar is not technical, what takes to play him is memory and knowing which pikmin is best for which situation. Though I must admit that on its own is quite deep, I feel sorry for how the Oli boards who do their moveset discussion, they have to have like 5 different versions.

 

[da K.I.D.]

a rose by any other name...

 

[infomon]

pit is mad technical.

pit and oli are the 2 characters that come to my mind when i think of characters possibly more complicated than sonic.

Hurray, some sense from a Sonic!

Add to your list Ice Climbers, Diddy, ... Yoshi if you go for his crazy draconic reverse wavedashey stuff, + his chaingrabs (ok those are easy)..... maybe even Link and Snake.

Well like, I guess the problem is differing opinions about what it means for a character to be "technical". In my books, it's asking how much tech skill is required to be in full control of the character. It's not the amount of ATs that are in their game, it matters how hard they are to pull off. It's not how many different options you have in a situation, it's how tedious it is to space, time, and input them, and how much you're doing this during a match.

Sonic has a lot of intricate tedious properties that require memorizing and adjusting to. That means the character has technical depth, for one use of the word technical, but it doesn't mean he requires tech skill, which is what I call a "technical character". Sonic's fast and some things do need tech skill, like if you're trying to dash into properly spaced B-reversed side-B grab-cancels.

But my understanding of Pit is that he requires way more tedious crap like that throughout his whole game, if you're going for an expert Pit who knows how to wingdash and stuff, properly, as in not spamming it all the time but using the ATs where they make sense.

Like how spamming SH ASC SCs with Sonic looks cool, but is easier than actually using those properly where it makes sense; in particular, using them to respond to your opponent's response to your moves. However, being a heavily responsive character means Sonic's difficult to play, but not difficult to control in the "tech-skill" sense.

Just my opinion.

 

[da K.I.D.]

some people think that melee doesnt require tech skill as much as just muscle and preconceived combo memory, and in that case, id be inclined to agree. im thinking about making a thread about how brawl has grown and really isnt as campy/defensive/easy/basics as everyone still thinks.

 

[Kinzer]

K.I.D, you will get buried in dumb posts and you would be flamed until nothing remained but ashes.

 

[Phaigne]

To tell the truth, I highly respect what you just said, da K.I.D. Brawl has evolved. I'm not posting this to say that though, just to say that Pit is a technical character. I don't know how he compares to Sonic, but a lot of his ATs have uses. Arrow Chasing is very good for any matchup, I wouldn't be worried about any other ones too much in this matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Technical aspect of a character does not reflect on a matchup. if it can be done it will be done.
Why are we discussing technical skill anyway?

 

[Kinzer]

Something lead to it.

Enough of that though, SL, give us your opinion for Pit if you would please, before we move on, cause I'm really looking forward to Wario.

 

[Phaigne]

Technical aspect of a character does not reflect on a matchup. if it can be done it will be done.
Why are we discussing technical skill anyway?

This isn't really true. If a character has a lot of technical ability, they have more options that can affect the matchup. But I know what you are getting at.

 

[Boxob.]

I didn't give EVERYONE in the sbr Haunter privileges..

You have to be at least decent, or a good poster.

I'll give you an example of what is considered not Haunter worthy. Vyse is such a scrub right now with Sonic, he might as well post Ninetails everywhere.

But SonicMaster five ***** so hard, He can use Haunter.

Tenki, while a scrub of highest Caliber, (I hope he knows I'm kidding when I say that lolol) makes great, helpful posts. So Haunter, he may use.

Wario's a ****ing douchebag.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This isn't really true. If a character has a lot of technical ability, they have more options that can affect the matchup. But I know what you are getting at.

Then we discuss the options rather than the character being more technical etc etc.
That and we have to analyze how useful those techs are because if you have 200 AT's and none of them are really useful, its equivalent ot having, well...nothing.


Ayways I gave my opinion in the Pit thread.

I Think it is 50-50 primarily because Pit and Sonic don't have anything over each other.

Ftilt is very useful when facing Pit on the ground, it outranges and clanks with EVERYTHING that pit can toss at you on the ground (except a few).
So zone him with your Ftilts and Bairs because pit really dislikes it.

Of course Pit does have answers and one must be wary especially at long distance and aerial battle.
pit obviously outclasses Sonic but one good flaw in Pit's aerial game is his range. he has incredibly narrow disjoints to his attacks so Sonic has methods of maneuvering around them.
Don't float around at long range and do NOT use your spincharge/spindash as a direct means of approach.
Dashing and spinshots are a much better option.
Why? Arrows.
They are an excellent tool in baiting the opponent and as soon as Sonic spincharges, you've limited your options to where Pit can answer you rather well.

oh and don't use homing attacks, seriously, uair hurts and Sonic has nothing sthat he can break it with.
Recovery wise neither character is easily gimped so don't bother, aim to tack on damage since neither character will die short of a KO.
both characters can also have issues KOing, Sonic with his terrible attack speed and Pit with his lack of range so space properly and it'll become equally hard for Pit to land that finishing blow.

Or toss steak at him.

I'll start on Wario.
65:35
<_<

 

[Kinzer]

So does that mean no Haunter for me?

 

[Boxob.]

Er, pit? Ungimpable?

Errrrgh.

 

[Boxob.]

So does that mean no Haunter for me?

I haven't played you, at all, nor have I SEEN you play.

Wanna play? lolol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Er, pit? Ungimpable?

Errrrgh.

CTRL+F ungimpable not found.

 

[Kinzer]

Yeah sure why not, I'll get on Lag-Fi.