Sonic the Hedgehog; a 2nd series rep

[FalKoopa]

That is partly why I think there is good cause for a 2nd Sonic rep.

So all you want is a noob-friendly character? The Mario series fits the bill better.

 

[final lap]

So all you want is a noob-friendly character? The Mario series fits the bill better.

There are noob friendly characters, but the inclusion of Sonic in SSB is in some extent meant to appeal to Sonic fans. For that reason he should be noob friendly, or failing that a 2nd Sonic character added.

Knuckles or Shadow would make sense, since either of them would appeal to most Sonic fans, and because they could be seen as being more powerful than Sonic, instead of merely being slower.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There are noob friendly characters, but the inclusion of Sonic in SSB is in some extent meant to appeal to Sonic fans. For that reason he should be noob friendly, or failing that a 2nd Sonic character added.

Knuckles or Shadow would make sense, since either of them would appeal to most Sonic fans, and because they could be seen as being more powerful than Sonic, instead of merely being slower.

Tails? Why don't you like Tails?!?!

And adding a character just because they would be "noob-friendly" is a terrible reason. Sonic can already be seen as noob freindly because of his AMAZING final smash!

 

[final lap]

A character's final smash shouldn't be a factor, at least not under the current smash ball system. (Granted, SSB4 will probably change it.)

If there are 4 players then technically you have a 1 in 4 chance in getting a final smash. But even after playing 4 games you might still not get one. (And being that we're considering noob-friendliness, a noob technically has an even less chance.)

Thus the final smash cannot be considered part of a character. It's merely a bonus.
Besides, the average player I think would be happy with the final smash no matter what it is, as long as it can't be effortlessly avoided. (and those final smashes should be fixed anyway)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A character's final smash shouldn't be a factor, at least not under the current smash ball system. (Granted, SSB4 will probably change it.)

If there are 4 players then technically you have a 1 in 4 chance in getting a final smash. But even after playing 4 games you might still not get one. (And being that we're considering noob-friendliness, a noob technically has an even less chance.)

Thus the final smash cannot be considered part of a character. It's merely a bonus.
Besides, the average player I think would be happy with the final smash no matter what it is, as long as it can't be effortlessly avoided. (and those final smashes should be fixed anyway)

Oh, but it is! It's part of their moveset and they were probably considered when balancing characters.

Your're math and reasoning is assuming a lot of things, but I REALLY don't want to get into that this late at night.

How is it a bonus if it is part of the character's moveset? That's like saying special moves are just a bonus.

 

[final lap]

they were probably considered when balancing characters.

I'm guessing many players disable final smashes altogether, which is something I'm sure the game makers had anticipated. And FS'es simply don't occur often enough to be used to balance a roster, so I would hope the game makers didn't actually do that. (granted, it's their game.. and they're the experts!)

With the smash ball system, only one player gets a final smash. The advantage goes strictly to that player. If a character is overpowered and has a bad final smash "to make up for it", that character is always better. It might explain why the final smashes are unbalanced.. it's simply because they didn't need to be. You will never lose from getting your final smash, no matter how useless it is. (A player will usually be happy to get their final smash at all.) And when someone else gets a final smash, your final smash being good or bad isn't relevant in the slightest. But it will make you feel stupid for picking a character solely for their final smash. Note that if this were PS All-Stars then things obviously would be different. I suspect SSB4 will change the final smash system in some manner

How is it a bonus if it is part of the character's moveset? That's like saying special moves are just a bonus.

Special moves can be used any time, all the time, as many times as you want. Not comparable.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm guessing many players disable final smashes altogether, which is something I'm sure the game makers had anticipated. And FS'es simply don't occur often enough to be used to balance a roster, so I would hope the game makers didn't actually do that. (granted, it's their game.. and they're the experts!)

With the smash ball system, only one player gets a final smash. The advantage goes strictly to that player. If a character is overpowered and has a bad final smash "to make up for it", that character is always better. It might explain why the final smashes are unbalanced.. it's simply because they didn't need to be. You will never lose from getting your final smash, no matter how useless it is. (A player will usually be happy to get their final smash at all.) And when someone else gets a final smash, your final smash being good or bad isn't relevant in the slightest. But it will make you feel stupid for picking a character solely for their final smash. Note that if this were PS All-Stars then things obviously would be different. I suspect SSB4 will change the final smash system in some manner


Special moves can be used any time, all the time, as many times as you want. Not comparable.

Special moves were a bad comparison. I will give you that. I stand by everything else though.

I am dead sure that Sakurai included FS in his balancing. I believe he said it somewhere but I have no way to prove it. Oh well.

You make all FS seem like killing sprees. Only one I would even consider calling that would be Sonic's. They can all be avoided. Most of them quite easily in fact. This was intentional so that FS were NOT game changers like you claim they are.

You also assume that all players have the same mentality. Players are not going to be happy if they get a FS and not do anything with it or fail to use it correctly.

 

[FalKoopa]

About Final Lap's previous post:

Why are you assuming that Sonic fans are necessarily noobs?

 

[final lap]

About Final Lap's previous post:

Why are you assuming that Sonic fans are necessarily noobs?

To some extent, I assume that everyone who plays SSB is a noob. But I assume it's even more true for Sonic fans, because they are generally a younger audience.

It depends why a character is added to SSB at all. If a particular character is added to attract more people to SSB, then perhaps it's only logical that character should be noob friendly.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To some extent, I assume that everyone who plays SSB is a noob. But I assume it's even more true for Sonic fans, because they are generally a younger audience.

It depends why a character is added to SSB at all. If a particular character is added to attract more people to SSB, then perhaps it's only logical that character should be noob friendly.

So...EVERY CHARACTER IN DA FREAKIN GAME?!??!?

That's terrible logic.

 

[FalKoopa]

To some extent, I assume that everyone who plays SSB is a noob. But I assume it's even more true for Sonic fans, because they are generally a younger audience.

It depends why a character is added to SSB at all. If a particular character is added to attract more people to SSB, then perhaps it's only logical that character should be noob friendly.

One of Sakurai's criteria states that the inclusion of a character must make people want to play the game.

Then, going by your logic, EVERY character in the game should be noob-friendly, lol.

And moreover, I think the people who bought the game solely for Sonic are a small minority.

 

[Junahu]

Sonic fans run the full gamut of demographics. The series has a low bar for entry, but a fairly deep system of momentum conservation that lends itself well to hardcore time-trialing and general showing off. A Sonic series moveset should be simple, with readily understood ideas and goals. But the moveset also needs the potential to be deep, to have those simple ideas play off one another and interact with the game-at-large.

Designing a moveset explicitly to be "noob-friendly" can end up with some unsavoury results, such as the game feeling grossly unbalanced at low-level play.


Edit: Wait, hold on. "Mario is a pick-up-and-play character but Sonic isn't"? Mario's moveset is actually pretty complicated, as none of his specials really advertise their uses. FLUDD and Cape are almost like jokes to a person first starting out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thing is, FLUDD IS a joke.

 

[final lap]

Designing a moveset explicitly to be "noob-friendly" can end up with some unsavoury results, such as the game feeling grossly unbalanced at low-level play.

In my opinion a game only needs to be balanced for high level play.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

In my opinion a game only needs to be balanced for high level play.

So make EVERYONE noob friendly? K.

 

[final lap]

^Not sure how that corresponds to what I said.

Though, some of the preceding posts sort of raise a broader issue: Why not make all characters noob friendly.
Or rather, how is it decided whether a character should be noob friendly or not.
But it is subjective, so nevermind. After all, my primary complaint with Sonic as a fighter is simply that he is too quick, not whether he is noob friendly in other regards. Sonic is 'final lap unfriendly'.

But I just thought of a theory when thinking of Pokemon Trainer. Being 3 characters in one, PT seems at least pretty complicated, but there's no reason for PT not to be, since Pikachu and Lucario are there to pick up the slack.
In other words, for characters of the same franchise, only one really needs to be noob friendly.

 

[Junahu]

In my opinion a game only needs to be balanced for high level play.

That's problematic if a game wants to attract a bigger audience. While it doesn't need to be totally balanced at low level, it needs to have a "perceived balance" so that new players can see that the game does actually have thought put behind it (and so that their matches aren't being dominated by specific characters all the time). Some sort of low level balance is crucial for the game to be enjoyed at low levels. Despite how 'patient and idiotic' people think new players are, they're probably the game's harshest audience, because they have absolutely no investment in the game and can simply go play something else the moment it feels too imbalanced to be fun.

Besides, it's not like both of these kinds of balance are mutually exclusive. If your basics are balanced, then it's going to be much easier to secure balance for both high and low level play.

 

[The Sword of Demise]

Amy Rose Moveset
Up B Rising Hammer swings hammer up as a recovery move
Side B Propeller hammer similar to ice climbers
Down B Bounce rolls into ball and slams down
Neutral B Tornado Hammer makes whirlwind that pushes away enemies
thats all i got

 

[3Bismyname]

Amy Rose Moveset
Up B Rising Hammer swings hammer up as a recovery move
Side B Propeller hammer similar to ice climbers
Down B Bounce rolls into ball and slams down
Neutral B Tornado Hammer makes whirlwind that pushes away enemies
thats all i got

I'd take Amy over Shadow anyday

 

[The Sword of Demise]

I'd take Amy over Shadow anyday

Me too if a good moveset could be made for her

 

[CalumG]

I'm gonna have to agree with the people who suggest Eggman as a character. I mean, if you think about it, isn't he the second most reoccurring character of the whole series? Aside from Sonic and the Black Knight, I can't physically think of a Sonic game that Eggman does not appear in.

This Brawl hack shows that he is not too big for the game in any sense, especially at normal height. Then of course, they could go the route of having him fight in a very compact mech, probably no taller than himself, a la Sonic The Fighters:

In fact, as people in the thread have discussed, I wouldn't actually mind Eggman being in an upgraded version of this very mech, but in a Modern Sonic style, with design features borrowed/upgraded from both the Egg Walker (see here) and the Egg-Robo (see here), topped off with a Metal Sonic-style propulsion system installed in the back of it. Most of his physical moves would be ripped straight from Fighters, and his specials would include, among other things: Egg-Robo's Beam Gun, a very good up B, and maybe the ability to spawn Badniks (Dedede style).

As far as little visual details go, he should be wearing his new attire but his mech should have the classic Eggman look adorned onto it, with the upside-down yellow triangles on a red base colour. He'd have to have an Eggman Nega alt colour scheme, obviously.

Aside from having a wealth of moves borrowed from other mechs though, Eggman's main redeeming feature should be his incredible aerial game for such a slow and heavy character. He should have multiple jumps using his mech's jet, a glide ability (to 'hover' across the stage, in a very classic sense), and a very promising recovery move.

The Smash team love their little details, so you know they'd pour a lot of love and care into a new, custom Eggman mech that represents the series as a whole.

 

[final lap]

So there's the other thread where you're asked to think of any 6 chars you would add.

This got me once again thinking in terms of choosing the Sonic reps based around the idea of a 4-character-limit. (since no series has more than 4 except Mario, but even Mario has 4 if you discount Yoshi)

So here's an assortment of combinations:

Sonic
Tails
Eggman
Knuckles
^ that's the obvious one, but groanworthy. But I guess it's not that bad, because at least we get Knuckles and Eggman.

Sonic
Tails
Knuckles
Amy
^ basically Amy replaces Eggman. This is the cast of Sonic Adventure 1, minus Gamma and Big.

Sonic w sword
Knuckles w sword
Shadow w sword
Blaze w sword
^ Basically, the Sonic Black Knight in SSB. It's an idea I had some time ago as a way to good characters like Shadow and avoid having to go through Tails first.

Sonic
Shadow
Silver
Eggman
^ teh 3 hedgehogs, plus Eggman

Sonic
Shadow
Silver
Amy
^ all 4 hedgehogs

Sonic
Shadow
Knuckles
Eggman
^ The original intended cast of Sonic Adventure 2. (before Tails and Rouge were added) (correct me if I'm wrong. I heard this somewhere and I know it's true)

Sonic/Werehog
Tails
Amy
Eggman
^ the cast of the Sonic Unleashed titles

Sonic
Blaze
Silver
Eggman Nega
^ An idea I only thought of just now. Nega Universe: The Roster. It makes a lot of sense as to explain why Sonic characters are in Smash (since these characters can travel between worlds) and is a terrific excuse to get Silver in the game.

P.S. BY THE WAY
I thought of Silver's moveset

B - psychokinesis (grab opponents, items, projectiles, and fling them at others)
B left/right - dash (attack and/or recovery)
B up - hover (recovery)
B down - ground slam (momentarily stuns opponents)

And here I thought Silver wouldn't work that well in SSB / PS All Stars

 

[Frostwraith]

4 Sonic characters? Keep dreaming. We'd be very lucky if we ever got a 2nd Sonic character and that is if Sonic returns.

 

[FalKoopa]

Meh, I hate the thought of more than 2 Sonic characters.

Play SSB Crusade if you want 4 Sonic characters (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow).

 

[8-peacock-8]

Four Sonic reps? Excuse me as I laugh at you. (Not really lol)

Seriously, there's no way we'd get four Sonic reps. It's like the time that one guy assumed SSB4 would be Nintendo Vs Namco.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Four Sonic reps? Excuse me as I laugh at you.

Seriously, there's no way we'd get four Sonic reps. It's like the time that one guy assumed SSB4 would be Nintendo Vs Namco.

Same guy actually.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Same guy actually.

Oh yeah. It's been a while so i forgot.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I highly doubt Sonic would get even another rep. There are plenty of other characters who should get in besides Sonic characters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Moreover I'm not sure why final lap thinks that Tails is a bad idea.

Tails is awesome!

 

[Junahu]

Practically speaking there's next to zero chance of the Sonic series attaining four character slots. But we shouldn't laugh at someone for wishful thinking. I mean, this board is wishful thinking central.

If Sega were sane, they'd push for as many character slots as they thought they'd get away with, which is why 2 characters feels so plausible for me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sorry while I say that the idea of having a second Sonic character is already laughable.

 

[FalKoopa]

Actually, I realised that he restricted himself to 4 characters just because he thought that Mario series had the largest number of reps at 4. I wonder what would he have written if he had realized that Pokémon has 6 reps.

 

[Deleted member]

As much of a Shadow fan I am, there is a constant struggle within me over who I'd rather see in Smash, him or Eggman.
Eggman is starting to edge out, though, simply because he's the most deserving character that's not Sonic, and seeing him alongside Nintendo's Rogues Gallery (Bowser, Ganondorf, Dedede, K. Rool (hopefully), Ridley (hopefully), etc.) would really tickle my fancy.

 

[final lap]

It's like the time that one guy assumed SSB4 would be Nintendo Vs Namco.

can't... breathe...

 

[8-peacock-8]

can't... breathe...

lol......

 

[volbound1700]

We have about a 0.01% chance of a 2nd Sonic rep so getting 4 seems near impossible, I would say 0.000000001% chance.

Tails should be the next in after Sonic. Perhaps Dr. Robotnik too. I think there needs to be more demand for a second Sonic character for their to be chance to have one. I don't see the demand.

 

[SureNsync]

Shadow wouldn't be a bad Sonic rep because he would fit in perfectly with the villains but I rather Knuckles, Tails or Amy get in over Shadow because Shadow's appearance is to similar to Sonic's while Tails, Knuckles and Amy would be more fun and different and I feel Shadow is to modern and isn't as iconic as Tails and Knuckles and a lot of Nintendo and Sega fans don't realize this but if Sonic was owned by Nintendo then he would have re-appeared in the next title of Smash Bros with 3 new reps...don't it make you kind of depressed?

 

[KurimuChizu]

IF you cant tell already, Im a BIG fan of Cream the Rabbit...her chances of getting in are fairly..FAIRLY low, but look at the new confirmed characters. Wii Fit Trainer? Shes completely outta the Blue, SO why not Cream? She hasn't had any playable spotlight since Sonic Free Riders, a game released back in November....of 2010...seriously? If Cream makes it in, I will Squeal for hours, days and years...that's how much i want her in. Her moveset would be mediocre and she be a ''light weight'' but i see her as i character used to rack up damage and finish off opponents with a Smash Attack~ Kinda like peach~


<------------Who are you again?.....Dr.Mario? How similar are you and Regular Mario?...I see....

 

[EddyBearr]

Wii Fit Trainer? Shes completely outta the Blue, SO why not Cream?

>Wii

Wii Fit Trainer reps all those "Wii" games that aren't a franchise. Wii Sports and etc. It's totally unexpected, and it filled two roles: The "wat" character, and repping the hard-to-realize-just-how-under-represented-they-were "wii games."

Sonic won't be getting a second rep. I actually think there's a good chance of Sonic getting cut to be honest.

Good riddance! Sonic games are the worst

 

[SonicMario]

Sonic won't be getting a second rep. I actually think there's a good chance of Sonic getting cut to be honest.

I agree that Sonic isn't getting a 2nd rep, but I'm pretty darn sure Sonic's likely staying.