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Sonic Sez

Exceladon City

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
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The Lonesome Crowded Midwest
Alright, so I'm totally stealing this idea from the ICs.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297005

It's a thread about mental notes that you take whenever you're practicing and jotting them down. So, I think this will be a pretty good thing to utilize. Especially, if you're a scatterbrained mess like me. So compile a bunch of your personal notes that you refer to when you're practicing and I'll archive them here.

With that being said, let's get this underway!


:sonic:NOTES:sonic:


K.I.D Goggles

-If your opponent gets your first stock off first, and they are at kill percent, dont get antsy for the kill. calm down, stay safe and remember their low% set ups and avoid those. if you can do that, youll usually be able to punish naturally with something that kills.

-I know it gets annoying when you pull that good bait and hit with the ASC at 190 and it didnt kill, but your first priority should be not dying/getting hit, and hitting/killing second.


Kuraudo
-Should you get the first stock, don't be antsy to build up damage or go aggro. It's most advised to play an extremely passive-aggressive game when you're in the lead, punishing mistakes and then resetting the situation. The clock works in your favor as the fastest character in the game. Make them play your game to reduce the chances of losing your stock and otherwise forcing more aggression out of you.

That being said, do not spend the entire game running away. Unfortunately, there are plenty of characters who can capitalize on predictable habits if you constantly try running away.

In conclusion, when you have the lead as Sonic, the #1 thing to keep in mind is to be very selective in the fights you pick with your opponent.


InCom
-NEW PLAYERS (and maybe a few old ones): You will suck. You'll screw up, you'll SD, you'll get outplayed, you'll get read. I'm in that stage myself. Work through it. When you lose in Brawl, it's because you made mistakes. When you make mistakes, it's an error in knowledge (of opponents, of characters, of stages), focus, or technical skill.

-ALWAYS be thinking. If you go on autopilot in tournament, you will lose. If you go on autopilot in practice, anything you learn will not stick. Finally, do not let ANYONE or ANYTHING keep you down. Yes, you suck now, but you won't suck forever IF you keep your head up and keep moving forward.

tl;dr Knowledge, focus, technique, thought, optimism. The best have 'em.


Sonic Storm/Joshua
-Once the opponent gets to 145-150%, don't start thinking that now's the time to nail the Fsmash, Bair, or the Dsmash. Becoming single-minded to get the kill will just lead you to making predictable movements, taking damage, and possibly getting KOed yourself. Just continue to tack on small bits of damage while still maintaining a safe position and a safe game; the wider percent gap, the better, and it's not like those three moves are going to suddenly stop KOing at higher percents. And remember that 3 moves - Uptilt, Nair, and Uthrow - become KO options 30-40% later, and those moves are below reaction time, making them somewhat easier to connect with.

Long and short of it, don't suddenly change your style as soon as the opponent is in KO percentages. Continue the hit-and-run style Sonic excels at, and wait for the opportunity to present itself to hit with one of your better KO moves (laggy move, rolling, land-camping, etc.), and if that opportunity never comes, the other three moves can do the job nicely.


Excel
-Learn your problem areas and conquer them. If you can't identify them, have someone critique you; they may see more than you.

-It's annoyingly easy to fall into patterns with Sonic. Whether it's approaching, defending, getting kills or something as simple as running away, you need to know how to mix-up everything you do or it's curtains.

-Learn the percentages, spacing and decay for all attacks; Bair and Dash Attack, especially. It's very important to know when and where the move -is- punishable and when it -becomes- unpunishable and how often you should use them.


Kojin
-Be able to identify from a basic matchup standpoint the opposing characters main zoning/footsies tools before the match even starts. Then adjust depending on their dependencies of certain moves.

-Know the matchups that require more emphasis on spacing with moves like bair, and which ones allow more usage of your spindashes. I simplify most matchups like this and if helps give me a clear goal headed into a match.

-Use the clock. Sonic racks up damage very quickly off mistakes so you can afford to not to rush at them simply because they have a life lead. take your time when searching for that opening, but do it in a fashion the keeps sonic moving or keeps sonic unpredictable, outside of their maximum smash/ tilt range.

-Against good players, most gimmicks only work once in a set, if at all. I try to limit myself to one trick a match.

-If getting the kill is too risky, then go for the time out to force the opponent to approach. This also applies to if you get an early kill/gimp in the game. make them work for their kill if they are behind, even if that means they have to chase you for extended periods of time.

-Get a general idea of the out of shield options of the characters you play against the most in your region, then for most matchups. This will play a factor into how often you will get a chance to bait spot dodges and attacks and punish. For example, Sonics should be more prepared to bait and punish spotdodge> jab attempts from yoshi more than others, know why and exploit these flaws to simplify sonic's strategy.


B.A.M
- Always know what typical DI for main punishing option at certain percents so that you can get at least one easy follow up
- know your frame traps vs certain characters
- capitalize on the angle of your opponents weakest aerial; thats where aerial frame traps are most potent
- remember that dash attack awesome for punishing ppl who are trying to space you due to its long reach and easy follow ups when you hit with the very last hitbox.
- SPACE UAIR ALWAYS. it makes juggling so easy. its sh ff variant is a really nice approach again medium to large characters and is even valid vs small characters who are aerial heavy. it is one of the safest approaches provided ur buffering is on point

- cool down. dont be too eager to buffer otherwise miss the buffer window. its a big window, so just relax and wait for it. ish aint like some other fighters

- remember to always your conditioned punishes to full effect. dont waste time conditioning just for one hit (unless it kills) wait for the perfect opportunity for max output.

- at mid high percents relax on the bair usage unless a definitive read is there ( or if your grab game is workin out) our easy juggling usually refreshes it in time for an offstage kill with a bair.

- If the kill is coming to you, revert to safe damage and our strong dash shield game. Combined with pummels, uthrow and fthrow do a ton of damage allowing us to open up other kill options like uair, utlit, and gimps.

- always be aware of 80 -95% for characters. if you can punish a mistake with ftilt, tipper dtilt, or jab combo you have a jab lock ( least likely) or a tech chase. this could end up with an opponent offstage allowing for a potentially 'early' kill via edgeguard.

- always watch recoveries in three advantageous positions: on the ledge with invincibility, on the edge, or at the tip of fsmash's range from the edge. running off and being aggressive is good when they are pressured, however watching their recovery from those areas give a ton of options that you can punish with provided ur reaction speed is there. It also gives a ton of information of an opponents goto which may prove useful in for an early stock gimp

-when you are ahead a stock, remember you can reset every bad situation by running away. use our strong dash shield and spacing options. you can maneuver around them while doing these things to appear that you are the aggressor. After they are in the air, then you can be aggro and create a bigger lead. Also if spindashing, delay it at times to see what theyd try to punish it with. Knowing what theyre going for is invaluable.

- MOST IMPORTANT: understand what spacing makes them tick. use your speed to figure out where they get uncomfortable and their response. All you need is that one hit to start the damage racking. This makes it safer to get it in.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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if your opponent gets your first stock off first, and they are at kill percent, dont get antsy for the kill. calm down, stay safe and remember their low% set ups and avoid those. if you can do that, youll usually be able to punish naturally with something that kills.
 

Kuraudo

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Kuraudo
Evidently, to continue from what KID said, should you get the first stock, don't be antsy to build up damage or go aggro. It's most advised to play an extremely passive-aggressive game when you're in the lead, punishing mistakes and then resetting the situation. The clock works in your favor as the fastest character in the game. Make them play your game to reduce the chances of losing your stock and otherwise forcing more aggression out of you.

That being said, do not spend the entire game running away. Unfortunately, there are plenty of characters who can capitalize on predictable habits if you constantly try running away.

In conclusion, when you have the lead as Sonic, the #1 thing to keep in mind is to be very selective in the fights you pick with your opponent.
 

Life

Smash Hero
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NEW PLAYERS (and maybe a few old ones): You will suck. You'll screw up, you'll SD, you'll get outplayed, you'll get read. I'm in that stage myself. Work through it. When you lose in Brawl, it's because you made mistakes. When you make mistakes, it's an error in knowledge (of opponents, of characters, of stages), focus, or technical skill. Moreover, ALWAYS be thinking. If you go on autopilot in tournament, you will lose. If you go on autopilot in practice, anything you learn will not stick. Finally, do not let ANYONE or ANYTHING keep you down. Yes, you suck now, but you won't suck forever IF you keep your head up and keep moving forward.

tl;dr Knowledge, focus, technique, thought, optimism. The best have 'em.
 

Kuraudo

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Mostly because that piece of advice seems more universal then specific to Sonic in the "Sonic Sez" thread? That's just me, really. And one can argue that what you and I said isn't that specific either. But for the most part, Sonic is the one that stands most prominent with those bits of advice.

What IC said is good and can work. Was just saying from a Sonic perspective, that's all. To me, what he said was more just improving your mindset as a player in general.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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I took this thread as

"what we need to remember the days before and going into a big tourney"

it doesnt matter if its sonic specific or not. I dont even play 100% sonic, but theres stuff that I need to make sure i remember going into pound so that I can place to my skill level.
 

Mr. Johan

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Sonicboom93
Once the opponent gets to 145-150%, don't start thinking that now's the time to nail the Fsmash, Bair, or the Dsmash. Becoming single-minded to get the kill will just lead you to making predictable movements, taking damage, and possibly getting KOed yourself. Just continue to tack on small bits of damage while still maintaining a safe position and a safe game; the wider percent gap, the better, and it's not like those three moves are going to suddenly stop KOing at higher percents. And remember that 3 moves - Uptilt, Nair, and Uthrow - become KO options 30-40% later, and those moves are below reaction time, making them somewhat easier to connect with.

Long and short of it, don't suddenly change your style as soon as the opponent is in KO percentages. Continue the hit-and-run style Sonic excels at, and wait for the opportunity to present itself to hit with one of your better KO moves (laggy move, rolling, land-camping, etc.), and if that opportunity never comes, the other three moves can do the job nicely.
 

da K.I.D.

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I know it gets annoying when you pull that good bait and hit with the ASC at 190 and it didnt kill, but your first priority should be not dying/getting hit, and hitting/killing second.
 

Life

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KID: Yeah, it is pretty similar come to think of it. I just took the general "you suck, here's why" theme (that neither of us invented, I should mention) and crystallized it into a small list for easy reading. After all, who knows more about sucking than me? :awesome: (inb4doubleentendres)

I also made a similar post in (I think it was) Verm's thread (which is in either general or tactical, IDR)... well, that's not the first time I've made a post along those lines.

I might rewrite it into a Sonic version sometime IDK.
 

Trillion

Smash Ace
Joined
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This is true for any character, but even more so for Sonic than most. Do not let yourself be predictable. Try using every move that you have in as many ways as possible. (It's easy to forget to look for your tilts for example.)
 

Mr. Johan

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Sonicboom93
Sonic typically has 4 methods to punish a character for using a move. In no particular order of potency:

1) Grab
2) Spin Dash
3) Dash Attack
4) Smash Attacks

In order to maximize your damage output for an attempted punishment option, it's important to know what is going to hit in the amount of time it takes for you to register and react to an attack and decide to punish, the mechanics of each of Sonic's moves, and how fast the move you're trying to punish is. For example, I personally love Dash Attack against Game and Watch, since it is fast enough and has enough range displacement to punish GW's almost lag-free moves, and can sometimes outspeed a Smash Attack if your reaction speed is good. K.I.D. seems to like to punish Pikachu's Smash Attacks (particularly the Dsmash) with Sonic's own Fsmash. Side B Spin Dash grants Sonic a tiny bit of invulnerability, which can be used to punish an up-close move; as it's slower and more often used for defense over Down B, it can also be used over Spin Charge to punish spotdodges from people expecting a Down B.

It's also important to consider what grants you a favorable position or what puts the opponent in a bad position. For example, if you can punish Snake with either Dash attack or Grab, it's more viable to use the slower grab as it puts Snake in the air and allows for land sharking.

Deciding what can punish what takes a lot of experience and practice in every matchup, but is essential for Sonic's damage racking game, and is sometimes necessary to get that KO, so it's important to look at frame data and decide from that, the best course of action for any given moment.
 

da K.I.D.

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I believe the above synopsis is absolutely perfect.

except for the fact that number 5 on that list should be tilts.
 

JayBee

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jamesbrownjrva
Be able to identify from a basic matchup standpoint the opposing characters main zoning/footies tools before the match even starts. Then adjust depending on thier dependancies of certain moves.

Know the matchups that require more empashis on spacing with moves like bair, and which ones allow more useage of your spindashes. I simplifiy most matchups like this and if helps give me a clear goal headed into a match.

Use the clock. Sonic racks up damage very quickly off mistakes so you can afford to not to rush at them simply because they have a life lead. take your time when searching for that opening, but do it in a fashion the keeps sonic moving or keeps sonic unpredictable, outside of thier maximum smash/ tilt range.

against good players, most gimmicks only work once in a set, if at all. I try to limit myself to one trick a match.

If getting the kill is too risky, then go for the time out to force the opponnt to approach. This also applies to if you get an early kill/gimp in the game. make them work for thier kill if they are behind, even if thay means they have to chase you for extended periods of time.

Get a general idea of the out of shield options of the characters you play against the most in your region, then for most matchups. this will play a factor into how often you will get a chance to bait spot dodges and attacks and punish. for example, Sonics should be more prepared to bait and punish spotdodge> jab attempts from yoshi more than others, know why and exploit these flaws to simpify sonic's strategy.
 

Exceladon City

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Learn the percentages, spacing and decay for all attacks. Especially, Bair and Dash Attack. It's very important to know when and where the move -is- punishable and when it -becomes- unpunishable and how often you should use them.
 

da K.I.D.

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wheres kinzer?

i remember talking to him and i think bam about a dash attack research thread, seeing when stuff was safe and would combo into grab? did that ever happen?
 

Exceladon City

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wheres kinzer?

i remember talking to him and i think bam about a dash attack research thread, seeing when stuff was safe and would combo into grab? did that ever happen?
Well fresh DA on D3 at 55 sets up for a grab but you have to initiate the DA just outside of D3's max grab range. You also have to input buffer the turnaround after it.
 

Kinzer

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wheres kinzer?
I'm here.

I'm going to go into the game again today and get some number crunches. I've been asked to look for some ZSS stuff so while I'm there I'll go ahead and get some Sonic stuff too.

Mainly DTilt though, but is there anything else I could help you get ready for since you brought it up?

:093:
 

Exceladon City

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I'm here.

I'm going to go into the game again today and get some number crunches. I've been asked to look for some ZSS stuff so while I'm there I'll go ahead and get some Sonic stuff too.

Mainly DTilt though, but is there anything else I could help you get ready for since you brought it up?

:093:
Where is my replay at Kinz?
 

Kinzer

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Where is my replay at Kinz?
Uh...?

You never got back to me on that.

That day I pulled an all-nighter and you caught me when I was about to crash and take a nap/sleep that afternoon and probably some, if not all of the night. I asked if you could send it to me at a later time/date because I can't check back on messages once I close AIM/shut down my computer. I assume you found someone else to take care of it or had a change of mind.

If you don't mind then, give me the download link and I'll put it up. It's just one match anyway, right?

:093:
 

Mr. Johan

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Sonicboom93
Vertical Spin Dash Jump. Understand the intricacies of this move.

VSDJ can be used in three specific and situational niches, but can be effective nonetheless when the cases arise:

1) attacking someone who rolled just behind you or who is air camping right above you, putting them right into the path of the hitbox.

2) it gives Sonic a greater jump height than his FH, with a faster startup, which can be used to avoid a low attack, or give you specific spacing against someone above you or near you in the air.

3) It's the last method to cancel a Side B, and the only method to cancel Down B other than waiting out the cooldown frames from the charge.

The last one is particular. It's not really difficult for people to differentiate a Side B from a Down B, but those same people only typically see VSDJ from a canceled Side B. Canceling a Down B with it can be useful against those who see the Down B and are rushing in, preparing to shield the Down B hit. It's also a neat variation to use when the jump arc of an instant-jump active Down B doesn't look like it'll be effective but you still want to keep pressure, i.e., someone is recovering or gliding at a 60+ degree angle.

Knowing not only that you have a VSDJ, but also different ways to apply a VSDJ, will only open more options for you to use from a neutral stance.
 

Tesh

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On number 2, what do you mean by faster startup? It takes a bit longer to side B then jump than it does to just jump. I don't think you can do anything until frame 8 when charging side b.
 

Kinzer

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Oh this reminds me:

If you must recover low, be sure to keep a note that you always have a couple of options when you Spring jump. All of them have their ups and downs.

1: Airdodge. This one is self-explanatory. This will allow you to avoid any grab-happy opponent who likes to cipher-gimp you with no way of getting back onstage. The problem with this however is that some people will expect you to do just that and punish your landing on the way back down.

2: Aerial. A bit more on the risky side being that your opponents can cipher gimp you, nevermind that a properly spaced attack can eabt out most, if not all of your aerials. The upside to this is that it gives you a counterattack on the way up for those who are unprepared; and if timed right you might just be able to avoid being cipher-gimped.

Those are just two. Something else to keep in mind is that just because Sonic can't snap to the ledge and has the added risk of being cipher gimped doesn't mean you should ignore the ledge all-together. You have no idea how often this has saved me from a punish on landing either via airdodge or aerial cover. You just need to be careful that your opponent doesn't try to hog the ledge while you couldn't Spring Jump high enough to land on the stage should you have performed the Spring Jump at that low.

It does sort of help with the last option that some stages allow you to walljump below or right on the ledge itself, so should your opponent time the invincibility just right you have ways to delay that time and as a final act of counter-measurement you should be able to footstool jump off their head.

:093:
 

Life

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Actually, there is a spacing (apparently, an incredibly tight spacing) with Spring where Sonic DOES snap to the ledge. It's like right at the beginning of the jump. I have a replay file and snapshots to prove it, but I gotta put them online if I want them to count, AND I haven't been able to replicate it consistently sooooooo yeah. Totally situational but it exists.

As for something relevant to the thread... think I'll expand on my earlier post.

FOCUS:

Don't zone out with Sonic. More than any other character, an autopiloting Sonic is a dead Sonic. Don't let your opponent's trash talk, momentum, reputation, etc. get to you. You have up to 8 stocks with which to win the game. Play EVERY stock like it's Game 3 and you're about to die. Don't get hit.

KNOWLEDGE:

Know the character inside and out. For that matter, know all the other characters. Know when to use your secondary (Lucario and Falco, at least, for me--I second Marth). Know all the stages. Know your opponents' habits (ie. learn them REALLY FAST, or play everybody a ton).

TECHNIQUE:

Make sure you can platform cancel on SV and the like. Watch your spacing. Know how to use Sonic's invincibility frames (usmash, spring, spin dash all have them, maybe more IDK). Jab lock set ups... DACUS... There's probably more.

THOUGHT:

I might just combine this with Focus TBH. But while you can't pay attention to what your opponent is SAYING, you MUST pay attention to what they are DOING. Look for tells, look for patterns. If it's a new MU to you, ask what the opponent can do to **** you ("Hm, this Ice Climber player keeps trying to grab me...") and avoid it.

OPTIMISM (aka Conclusion):

Always ask yourself what you're playing the game for. If you want to win, play to win--abuse the timer, camp all day, plank with MK, whatever you gotta do. However, I think most of us here have a slightly different goal: win with Sonic. Hopefully, this post helps you do so.

No johns, no sandbagging, no limits
 

B.A.M.

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Bambatta
- Always know what typical DI for main punishing option at certain percents so that you can get at least one easy follow up
- know your frame traps vs certain characters
- capitalize on the angle of your opponents weakest aerial; thats where aerial frame traps are most potent
- remember that dash attack awesome for punishing ppl who are trying to space you due to its long reach and easy follow ups when you hit with the very last hitbox.
- SPACE UAIR ALWAYS. it makes juggling so easy. its sh ff variant is a really nice approach again medium to large characters and is even valid vs small characters who are aerial heavy. it is one of the safest approaches provided ur buffering is on point

- cool down. dont be too eager to buffer otherwise miss the buffer window. its a big window, so just relax and wait for it. ish aint like some other fighters

- remember to always your conditioned punishes to full effect. dont waste time conditioning just for one hit (unless it kills) wait for the perfect opportunity for max output.

- at mid high percents relax on the bair usage unless a definitive read is there ( or if your grab game is workin out) our easy juggling usually refreshes it in time for an offstage kill with a bair.

- If the kill is coming to you, revert to safe damage and our strong dash shield game. Combined with pummels, uthrow and fthrow do a ton of damage allowing us to open up other kill options like uair, utlit, and gimps.

- always be aware of 80 -95% for characters. if you can punish a mistake with ftilt, tipper dtilt, or jab combo you have a jab lock ( least likely) or a tech chase. this could end up with an opponent offstage allowing for a potentially 'early' kill via edgeguard.

- always watch recoveries in three advantageous positions: on the ledge with invincibility, on the edge, or at the tip of fsmash's range from the edge. running off and being aggressive is good when they are pressured, however watching their recovery from those areas give a ton of options that you can punish with provided ur reaction speed is there. It also gives a ton of information of an opponents goto which may prove useful in for an early stock gimp

-when you are ahead a stock, remember you can reset every bad situation by running away. use our strong dash shield and spacing options. you can maneuver around them while doing these things to appear that you are the aggressor. After they are in the air, then you can be aggro and create a bigger lead. Also if spindashing, delay it at times to see what theyd try to punish it with. Knowing what theyre going for is invaluable.

- MOST IMPORTANT: understand what spacing makes them tick. use your speed to figure out where they get uncomfortable and their response. All you need is that one hit to start the damage racking. This makes it safer to get it in.
 
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