Sonic Matchup Export : Wolf

[_Kain_]

Sonic has a billion options? What a godly character

 

[~TBS~]

I once heard a wise Sonic main say we have many "options" but in given situations, only 5% of them will work. Oddly enough i remember that. Dont know if that holds true vs different chars but kayz?

If Sonic bairs wolf's shine, wont his foot just get hit?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I once heard a wise Sonic main say we have many "options" but in given situations, only 5% of them will work. Oddly enough i remember that. Dont know if that holds true vs different chars but kayz?

If Sonic bairs wolf's shine, wont his foot just get hit?

If Wolf initiates the shine when you're going to bair then Sonic gets sent slightly back and Sonic takes like 2-3%. If Wolf is just sitting in his shine then he is like a sitting DUCK.

 

[Tenki]

^ that

I thought shine was an issue of timing than range :/
That's how I treat it, anyway.

I mean it's the same way with Sonic's side-B and u-smash invincy frames - if he's invincible, he wins lol.

Even if Sonic had xmove that outranged and hit through shine, shine is more often used as a combo breaker and as such, you'll probably get better returns baiting it and just mixing up your juggle timing than throwing out xmove and hoping he shines it

 

[Trillion]

Try outreaching a move with invincibility frames on startup with bair....I'm sure you will beat shine with bair if you keep trying...Wait...Nope.

SPEED, explain why his statement is faulty vs Wolf/Sonic matchup.

I'm not talking about hitting you during invincibility frames. That would be ********. On the same frame that the hitbox for shine comes out, if I am spaced right, then my bair will beat your shine. Nobody here is questioning that you can win if I try to hit you during your invincibility frames, that's obvious. Shine's hitbox is out for 7 frames. That's not a very long time. You have to have uber - good reflexes to predict my move and my spacing and time it correctly to beat me out with that small window. Shine will work sometimes, and it will give you a 2 - 3% damage on me. In the meantime, the other 70% of the time that shine DOESN'T save you, I'll rack up much more than 3%. Risk/Reward Ratio says that if I ever meet up with a Wolf player in a tourney, then I hope he tries to shine his way out of every follow up. Because, I'll win if he does.

 

[Tesh]

Didn't someone post a video earlier of a non spaced bair beating shine? It didn't make any sense at all to me tbh. There would have to be a gap in the invincibility or perhaps......

Are Wolf mains 100% certain that shine has its maximum range on the first frame it hits? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnPyoypNDw&t=01m20s That just doesn't make any sense to me. Sonic is right next to Wolf when it comes out and it doesn't do anything at all to him.

 

[SoupaSonic]

The stage is small. Not talking about the blast zones, but the actual ground to fight on. This makes it much easier for Wolf to fight in his comfort zone (close range and in the air). You don't wanna play an aerial game against Wolf unless the reward is higher for you (exploiting his weak recovery). Which is the difference between Rainbow Cruise and Frigate in this matchup. Thats how I see it anyway.

Are there any other stages besides RC, YI, and Picto that give sonic an advantage? I wanna know cuz YI is likely gonna get banned and I don't really like RC or Picto.

 

[Trillion]

@ Tesh - I'm not sure, but I found something else pretty awesome so that we don't even need the bair.

There is a video of Kinzer vs. Lycan in our video thread that shows that our upsmash's invincibility is longer than their shine's invincbility and that it hits them lolol. So, upsmash is a safe way of punishing the shine if you predict that they will use it.

Go to about 1:57-ish in this video (I don't know how to copy/paste a link to start the video at a specific spot)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Jo39kJww

 

[Tesh]

You just add " &t=01m57s" to the end of the url.

Also what happens int hat video isn't our Upsmash having more invincibility. Wolf's invincibility ends as the hitbox comes out. Kinzer likely just got invincibility as the hitbox was coming out for shine.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, it seems to have been more of a staggered timing rather than a direct clash between their invincibility frames.

Again, it really is more of baiting+punishing than a challenge of priority.

 

[Trillion]

In this vid that Infzy made, it shows that, in the upsmash animation, Sonic bends, then as he jumps he faces to the side and that is where his invincibility begins.
(Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r9HGU39qXo&t=00m58s )

Compared to Kinzer's vid.
(Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Jo39kJww&t=01mm57s )

This last GIF was taken from the Wolf boards guide. As you see, the pink color of the shine comes out and it passes through MK before he is hit by it. It is actually larger during the invincibility frames, then it compacts when the hitbox is active and remains compact as a reflector for as long as it is held after that.

Take another look at the Kinzer pic and you will see that the invincibility frames for Sonic are active AND that the pink color is not a compact shield around wolf, demonstrating that Wolf indeed DID have invincbility.

So, at somepoint during that time, both sides did have invincibility frames. The only question in my mind is if he had all 7 frames or not. However, it may not matter if he had all 7 or not. In Infizy's vid where the pic I took came from, the homing attack passed all the way through Sonic's body, hit the ground, bounced, and then upsmash's hitbox caught the Sonic who did the homing attack. So, i do not have a count on how many frames of invincibility that is, but I think it is at least 7.

 

[Tesh]

My point is still that Upsmash has less frames invincibility than Shine. Its not longer like you said, it just showed up at the right time in that instance.

Also our upmsash is more punishable than their shine thats for sure.

 

[Trillion]

My point is still that Upsmash has less frames invincibility than Shine. Its not longer like you said, it just showed up at the right time in that instance.

Also our upmsash is more punishable than their shine thats for sure.

How many frames would you say it took for homing attack to go all the way through Sonic and then hit the ground? IMO, it's at least 7.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If you try to Usmash me (LOLWUT), I'm gonna punish was something harder (Like Dsmash).

MagnificentMarth seems to not have any Wolf experience at all. I don't think he realizes the differences in moves between shine and ______.

Shine beats every attack in the game when both are used at the same time except Wario's Fsmash if he Fsmash's 2 frames faster then Shine (This is because of superarmor).

 

[Trillion]

If you try to Usmash me (LOLWUT), I'm gonna punish was something harder (Like Dsmash).

Sounds like theorycraft. We aren't discussing whether or not you can bait me to upsmash at the wrong time.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Shine shouldn't be the move you're scared of @____@. Dats Fair. Fair is the answer to the Sonic matchup...It's the only move I just can throw out constantly and have no worries vs Sawnik.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont whiff.

 

[WedginatorX]

dont whiff.

Don't lose to K9's snake.

 

[Tesh]

Wolf's fair isn't safe on shield rising or falling. Its just like Ganon's autocancelled Dair/Bair/Uair. Sure you have no landing lag once you land, but you still have 20 dead frames before you land and bad end lag if you fast fall. Wolf won't get punished with a Smash for it because he can drift away, but Fair isn't safe on shield at all. Shield drop dash into fair/nair/uair or dash grabbing the landing will work fine.

So I wouldn't say you can throw it out constantly without worry. In the situation we were discussing, Sonic would be land camping Wolf for follow ups. Fair would be a bad idea because the hitbox would either be low enough to hit sonic but with horrible landing lag, or way above sonic with a pointless autocancel. Shine would be good here (right) if you need to hit sonic, because you do get enough of a frame advantage to jab him right?

 

[Trillion]

90% of the time, I'm not worried about Wolf's fair tbh. I'm only worried about it when he's below me and I'm high %.

Most of the time, Wolf will not find himself in a very good position to use it based on the range that Sonic will try to keep between himself and Wolf. (Refer to the picture Tenki had made)

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf's fair isn't safe on shield rising or falling. Its just like Ganon's autocancelled Dair/Bair/Uair. Sure you have no landing lag once you land, but you still have 20 dead frames before you land and bad end lag if you fast fall. Wolf won't get punished with a Smash for it because he can drift away, but Fair isn't safe on shield at all. Shield drop dash into fair/nair/uair or dash grabbing the landing will work fine.

So I wouldn't say you can throw it out constantly without worry. In the situation we were discussing, Sonic would be land camping Wolf for follow ups. Fair would be a bad idea because the hitbox would either be low enough to hit sonic but with horrible landing lag, or way above sonic with a pointless autocancel. Shine would be good here (right) if you need to hit sonic, because you do get enough of a frame advantage to jab him right?

Full retreated fairs are unpunishable and very safe.

 

[Trillion]

Full retreated fairs are unpunishable and very safe.

I think saying "unpunishable" is a stretch. Sonic can cover the entire Final Destination in about 60 frames (1 Second)

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic storm just posted a video of him vs a wolf where the first move of the match was wolf shooting a laser, and the sonic running half the length of the stage, powershielding the laser, and running the rest of the stage and still being able to hit the wolf before he could move.


you are underestimating sonics punish potential.

 

[_Kain_]

sonic storm just posted a video of him vs a wolf where the first move of the match was wolf shooting a laser, and the sonic running half the length of the stage, powershielding the laser, and running the rest of the stage and still being able to hit the wolf before he could move.


you are underestimating sonics punish potential.

The wolf could of moved. He just didn't

The wolf didn't even play the MU right and still won. Idk how that would be good evidence

 

[Mr. Johan]

1) That was on Delfino, where the bottom platform is small-ish

2) Wolf could have probably jabbed by the time I DAed.

3) This was pools where everyone still got into bracket next day. Holms may have not been trying, and I may have subconsciously restricted myself. No optimal play from either character either way, so not much evidence for the MU can be extracted from the video.

4) @Kain/other Wolfs, how narrow is Wolf's Bair hitbox? It's got stellar horizontal range, sure, but what about vertical? Is it narrow enough that Sonic can crouch with his Dsmash to avoid Bair SH level on a level stage, kind of like how I did it on the island at the beginning of the match as Wolf was falling toward me? No chance for sure on reacting to an instant SH bair unless the Wolf is super-predictable, but if the Wolf is feeling daring/dumb and is approaching with Bair, Dsmash seems like it can be an OK option to fight that.

 

[_Kain_]

1) That was on Delfino, where the bottom platform is small-ish

2) Wolf could have probably jabbed by the time I DAed.

3) This was pools where everyone still got into bracket next day. Holms may have not been trying, and I may have subconsciously restricted myself. No optimal play from either character either way, so not much evidence for the MU can be extracted from the video.

4) @Kain/other Wolfs, how narrow is Wolf's Bair hitbox? It's got stellar horizontal range, sure, but what about vertical? Is it narrow enough that Sonic can crouch with his Dsmash to avoid Bair SH level on a level stage, kind of like how I did it on the island at the beginning of the match as Wolf was falling toward me? No chance for sure on reacting to an instant SH bair unless the Wolf is super-predictable, but if the Wolf is feeling daring/dumb and is approaching with Bair, Dsmash seems like it can be an OK option to fight that.

Dsmash can prolly avoid a regular SH bair if done at thr right time and connect once he falls back to the ground. Not a FF bair tho. It is pretty narrow vertically

 

[Tesh]

Full retreated fairs are unpunishable and very safe.

unpunishable..... Even if it hits on the last possible frame perfectly spaced, we have time to shield drop and dash attack you into fast faller combos at most percents. There are at LEAST 20 frames to punish and you don't go as far as metaknight does after tornado. Your full retreat isn't so much distance that Sonic can't get you. You might even get grabbed.

I would say its pretty safe though. Probably won't get punished if the other guy wasn't expecting it. But I wouldn't say you can throw it out constantly and get away with it.

Which brings me to my next question. Does uneven ground screw up your autocancels badly for Fair? Would wolf be perfectly comfortable on stage on lylat? What about Pokemon Stadium 2 and Jungle Japes? Does Wolf have a hitbox video/thread?

 

[MegaRobMan]

You might even get grabbed.

That's happened to me before :L

I read all of this stuff over again and I don't know much else to discuss, 60:40 sound good? Wolf should ban YI at all times, Picto if necessary.

 

[WedginatorX]

The wolf could of moved. He just didn't

The wolf didn't even play the MU right and still won. Idk how that would be good evidence

Pretty much this lol.
Just because the matchup's being played doesn't mean that's how you play the matchup.

 

[Espy Rose]

I once heard a wise Sonic main say we have many "options" but in given situations, only 5% of them will work. Oddly enough i remember that. Dont know if that holds true vs different chars but kayz?

If Sonic bairs wolf's shine, wont his foot just get hit?

That would be me that said that.

Sonic has one of the largest selection of options in Brawl...they just all suck.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

In this vid that Infzy made, it shows that, in the upsmash animation, Sonic bends, then as he jumps he faces to the side and that is where his invincibility begins.
(Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r9HGU39qXo&t=00m58s )

Compared to Kinzer's vid.
(Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Jo39kJww&t=01mm57s )

This last GIF was taken from the Wolf boards guide. As you see, the pink color of the shine comes out and it passes through MK before he is hit by it. It is actually larger during the invincibility frames, then it compacts when the hitbox is active and remains compact as a reflector for as long as it is held after that.

Take another look at the Kinzer pic and you will see that the invincibility frames for Sonic are active AND that the pink color is not a compact shield around wolf, demonstrating that Wolf indeed DID have invincbility.

So, at somepoint during that time, both sides did have invincibility frames. The only question in my mind is if he had all 7 frames or not. However, it may not matter if he had all 7 or not. In Infizy's vid where the pic I took came from, the homing attack passed all the way through Sonic's body, hit the ground, bounced, and then upsmash's hitbox caught the Sonic who did the homing attack. So, i do not have a count on how many frames of invincibility that is, but I think it is at least 7.

Those pictures really dont do sonic justice for the IFs on that move.

Though honestly if your looking for IFs in brawl look for white flashing frames. 1-8 frames on Wolf isnt a long period of time. However if you really want to tinker around with the IFs on his shine like i have, get out bob-omb. Place them on platforms or on the main stage, shine them and wolf shouldnt receive any damage.

Looking at 1/4 slow down in training mode, if you upb on sonic you can see IF on sonic midway through the height of his spring jump. It doesnt matter if your off the stage and spring, or SH spring. The IF comes out at the same time.

Sonickupo can back me up when i say those frames on those pictures sonic does not have IF. As online i've grabbed sonic out of his upb on DDD.

 

[Tesh]

Sometimes instead of invincibility, hurtboxes shrink, disappear and move into the background. Which is why looking for flashing frames isn't 100% proof.

 

[Trillion]

Those pictures really dont do sonic justice for the IFs on that move.

Though honestly if your looking for IFs in brawl look for white flashing frames. 1-8 frames on Wolf isnt a long period of time. However if you really want to tinker around with the IFs on his shine like i have, get out bob-omb. Place them on platforms or on the main stage, shine them and wolf shouldnt receive any damage.

Looking at 1/4 slow down in training mode, if you upb on sonic you can see IF on sonic midway through the height of his spring jump. It doesnt matter if your off the stage and spring, or SH spring. The IF comes out at the same time.

Sonickupo can back me up when i say those frames on those pictures sonic does not have IF. As online i've grabbed sonic out of his upb on DDD.

The pictures I am showing are his up smash. Not his up b. So, that's where your problem is. You should check the sources I listed to see what I am talking about or at the very least READ what I typed before saying that I am wrong. Thanks.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

It really doesnt look like a usmash then again the picture quality is pretty bad. Then again I HIGHLY question YOUR methods of thinking especially when your using youtube videos as a means to get screen shots for FRAME DATA. Screen shots is a feature which you can clearly do in brawl kiddo.

And yea your right about that Tesh, which is why actually playing the game and playing more matches allows you more opportunities to experience all the weird physics that can happen

 

[Trillion]

It really doesnt look like a usmash then again the picture quality is pretty bad. Then again I HIGHLY question YOUR methods of thinking especially when your using youtube videos as a means to get screen shots for FRAME DATA. Screen shots is a feature which you can clearly do in brawl kiddo.

I described what you were looking at next to the picture and I linked the videos for you to watch for yourself. I don't care if you "question my methods." Watch the videos and see for yourself what I am talking about before you go spouting nonsense without even reading or watching. If you can't even do that, then you need to seriously GTFO of this thread because you are not only being unhelpful, you are also being completely distracting due to the fact that you have to be corrected since you can't read or watch the video before commenting.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this really isnt your concern dark.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I read all of this stuff over again and I don't know much else to discuss, 60:40 sound good? Wolf should ban YI at all times, Picto if necessary.

Numbers are arbitrary; what one thinks of 6:4 as a slightly advantageous matchup, one can see it simply as advantageous. And even then, people's perceptions of the degree of "advantageous" can vary.

I can agree with Wolf having a solid advantage over Sonic though. Not a slight advantage, not a major advantage, just an advantage.

Unless it's on Brinstar or BF. If it's on either of those two, holy ****.

 

[MegaRobMan]

60-40 means that the Wolf will win 60% of the time, 6/10 is slightly advantageous, +1 from even.

 

[Tesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAp5qOG-xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h237wcMA9-4

A "top" Sonic just lost to a top Wolf. Looks like a hard counter.

 

[MegaRobMan]

LOL at the last kill on the first vid.

Edit: Not exactly a ringing 60:40 endorsement, but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlSauuOFl5g