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Wolfs ground game really shouldnt concern a Sonic too much as u shouldnt be close range with him anyways. Mid range is the best thing for us. It allows us to evaluate the situation, and utilize cross ups easily due to our speed. Once Wolf is in the air, rushing fairs force him to commit to something early if he wishes to punish them. Spacing uair is something he really cant do much about. The only problem with Wolf is I feel its slightly harder to get in than Marth if a Wolf does what he should. However staying mid range where our run crosses in like 3 frames, SH aerials, grab, spaced ftilts, fsmash shenanigans got us covered.
Most importantly, his fall speed makes it harder for him to punish aerial follow ups if whiff, and side b his landing with go thru any aerial due to its invincibility and you could always shield and grab too if need be. Its fairly easy to spring or run away with spin dash from any of wolfs follow ups. Wolfs move set may appear more capable, but the fact of the matter is we are going to rack damage far more quickly than he will, and in this matchup with gimping and edgeguarding being definite alternatives to take a stock, this match is far closer that it appears. 55-45 Wolf. Definitely a doable match. Wolf has solid tools, but they are not punishing us enough vs the amount of damage we can do if we get it in. Fighting him at mid range initially is where Sonic has a chance. Doing close range battles arent as bad as falco, but theyll still get you.
shine is best in the sonic matchup to prevent aerial followups, but its not as effective if he stays on the ground.
Sonic better at escaping pressure than wolf IMO.
Sonic is a punisher megarob. the most common tactic is to bait ant punish. you are putting yourself into so much risk and so much pressure if you rely on punishing one the most unpredictable characters with that move.
like all spacies, wolf is vulnerable to harassment offstage, and sideB is 99% used in all recoveries by the star fox characters. this is how sonic will usually get his chance to kill you, in case you didn't know, and early gimps that can occur help make up for his lack of reliable kill moves, which you as wolf have.
The big quoted part is exactly what I said, Wolf destroys sonic in the air. Except for if Wolf is directly above sonic, then U-air can be hazardous. This is a match up where mix ups are very important, like all match ups with Sonic. I get that sonic is a punisher, so is Wolf. Wolf should not just jump in the air around where he thinks sonic is going to be, he has to wait for the jump frame to come out and know where he is in location to the shine/bair/fair. If wolf reacts at the same time as Sonic, he'll win every time in horizontal aerial combat, which is the majority of the match up.
And yes, Wolf should always try to recover on stage, that's his primary goal, to stay in the safe zone. Off-stage throwing is excellent in this match, yes.
You are making the mistake of assuming that we always have to follow up the exact same way.
For example: mind games.
Sonic can kill without HAVING to bait you into making a mistake. It IS our favorite way since it nets us earlier kills, but it can still be done even without baiting you, it's just harder. A bair, a forward smash, a down smash, spring gimps (not extremely viable or widely used, but more viable on wolf than other characters.), spring > up air kills such as after an up throw, fair can interrupt and hit fox and falco through their illusions if timed correctly, and while I can not say for sure, I believe that this should hold true for Wolf as well.
No, you are making the mistake that I'm assuming you are going to do the same thing over and over, I'm not saying that, someone else said I was saying that. You have to watch what your opponent does and how far he is from where he can hit you and where you can punish him. Misjudging that is the entire metagame FOLKS, plus mind games. Wolf has a laser, F-smash and Dacus that all have a lot of range. Sonic has SPEED=run-PS-grab.
You watch your opponent, if you hear/see a jump followed "Spring" you better believe Shine is coming out soon after, otherwise smart Wolf will coast away into blaster range. VS Metaknight, wolf can shine through his Up-B and safely make it back on stage, but that takes split freaky timing and is often just guessing what move is coming. AD can be a good option and I know I mix it up. Your attack is slower and is easier to time. I know you can AD into nair if I mess my shine timing up/predict, and if so, good work, I'm probably dead :-) AD is a bad idea against MK because you will get tornadoed, just like AD is bad vs Sonic, you'll get punished a lot for it but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Also, a good wolf will never let himself get put into a situation where you can F-smash him without him being a moron and SD or AD into one, seriously.
(I'm waiting for Blank, an Iowa player, to just destroy me at the next tourney with Sonic due to all my smack talk.)
If you are wolf, you have 2 playstyle options (from my experience). #1 Aggro. You shoot lasers in the air so they barely hit sonic while he stands. This may force an Air dodge as he is coming towards you. You should F-smash him. He may D-tilt at you to get around this and it could combo you. You want to start bairing into their shield and hope they try and grab you, into an F-smash or more bairs. Remember, your Jab destroys everything sonic will throw when he's in range.
#2. Defensive. Shoot lasers and punish with Shines when in the air, D-throw shield grabs when available, otherwise F-smash. Avoid all damage and camp like a mofo. Remember, back air is the safest move in the world.
Once they get into killing percent you wait until the right time and either D-smash them or Fair them. Focus on staying on the stage (AT ALL TIMES) instead of forcing a risky kill.
If you are sonic-You should focus on getting wolf off stage. You can't do the usual "Melee Falco drill" which is camp by the ledge and hope he kills himself or allows himself to get throw him off, because Sonic has no projectile, so your goal should be to stay in the middle of the stage unless Wolf is off it. Grabs are godly in this match-up. Your D-tilt and up-tilt are really good moves at low%. Also, jump Spring works because Wolf is expecting the grab and when you jump, he's gonna drop his shield and try to punish usually. (Free damage is free damage, guys, take the 3% like we do with Shine.)
Wolfs ground game really shouldnt concern a Sonic too much as u shouldnt be close range with him anyways. Mid range is the best thing for us. It allows us to evaluate the situation, and utilize cross ups easily due to our speed. Once Wolf is in the air, rushing fairs force him to commit to something early if he wishes to punish them. Spacing uair is something he really cant do much about. The only problem with Wolf is I feel its slightly harder to get in than Marth if a Wolf does what he should. However staying mid range where our run crosses in like 3 frames, SH aerials, grab, spaced ftilts, fsmash shenanigans got us covered.
Most importantly, his fall speed makes it harder for him to punish aerial follow ups if whiff, and side b his landing with go thru any aerial due to its invincibility and you could always shield and grab too if need be. Its fairly easy to spring or run away with spin dash from any of wolfs follow ups. Wolfs move set may appear more capable, but the fact of the matter is we are going to rack damage far more quickly than he will, and in this matchup with gimping and edgeguarding being definite alternatives to take a stock, this match is far closer that it appears. 55-45 Wolf. Definitely a doable match. Wolf has solid tools, but they are not punishing us enough vs the amount of damage we can do if we get it in. Fighting him at mid range initially is where Sonic has a chance. Doing close range battles arent as bad as falco, but theyll still get you.
I like this. But I don't think rushing fairs is that great of an idea because our fair beats it, and if we see a long duration move coming right at us, we will take the damage and take it, especially if we are in the air, the trajectory on Fair is awesome.
Shine's hitbox doesn't come out until the invincibility is gone right? So if you shine into a hitbox that lasts past the invincibility, you trade right?
Kain when I mention Marth's fair and other useful OoS stuff to intercept Sonic's approaches, I meant moves that punish hard and lead into other things. Btw does jumpshine lead into anything relaibly? MRM seems to think so, but you didn't say anything about it.
Kain what is "proper" use of shine? You mean hitting with it? It doesn't look like it would be safe on shield/whiff. That was kind of my point anyway. If you screw up and read your opponent wrong, its not too rewarding.
Anyway I guess we can all agree than Shine is a useful defensive mix up eh?
if you notice when I talk about shine use, it's all in the air. Unless I see you charging a smash attack, I'm not going to shine on the ground, it's too risky, wolf doesn't have to do stupid things to win this match-up.
Shine's hitbox doesn't come out until the invincibility is gone right? So if you shine into a hitbox that lasts past the invincibility, you trade right?
pretty sure the hitbox comes after the invincibility yeah, but shine's hitbox has trandscendant priority, if the attacking hitbox lasts through the shine's invicibility it'll still get beaten by the actual shine afaik.
some one would have to test that out to see.
as for reliable follow ups from jumpshine, if you shine them and they're behind you bair
if they're in front of you and you land after the shine then jab combo's
those're the only ones i know about
pretty sure the hitbox comes after the invincibility yeah, but shine's hitbox has trandscendant priority, if the attacking hitbox lasts through the shine's invicibility it'll still get beaten by the actual shine afaik.
[1] Except for if Wolf is directly above sonic, then U-air can be hazardous. This is a match up where mix ups are very important, like all match ups with Sonic.
...
[2] If you are wolf, you have 2 playstyle options (from my experience). #1 Aggro. You shoot lasers in the air so they barely hit sonic while he stands. This may force an Air dodge as he is coming towards you. You should F-smash him. He may D-tilt at you to get around this and it could combo you. You want to start bairing into their shield and hope they try and grab you, into an F-smash or more bairs. Remember, your Jab destroys everything sonic will throw when he's in range.
#2. Defensive. Shoot lasers and punish with Shines when in the air, D-throw shield grabs when available, otherwise F-smash. Avoid all damage and camp like a mofo. Remember, back air is the safest move in the world.
Once they get into killing percent you wait until the right time and either D-smash them or Fair them. Focus on staying on the stage (AT ALL TIMES) instead of forcing a risky kill.
[1] Speaking of U-air, I hope everyone knows that Sonic's U-air has some really weird horizontal-range business on the first hit. I wonder how that fairs (heh) vs Wolf's B-air?
[2] Question @ orange part:
How does that force an airdodge? (I'm imagining you're saying shooting aerial lasers at Sonic - or do you mean with Sonic in midair?)
btw, my point about lasers and Sonic's "half of FD" zoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBDwEq8c4P0#t=44s
In the video, his original distance was a little further than about half the stage, but any closer would have been much more comfortable spacing, allowing for more variety in punishment.
Here, he gets greedy on the second laser and tries to shieldgrab, but the Sonic could have easily hit the ending lag of with a F-tilt/D-tilt instead of trying to dash (you can do attacks to use powershield's IASA frames but not dash, sadly enough :/)
@ bairs: Ah, lol
I remember my friend started throwing up dj mixups into his game, but eventually I started pshield camping bairs (punished with aerials, or grabs, if I got in close enough) or just running away.
Random question: If you (as wolf) is in midair without jumps and the opponent is say 1/3+ stage distance away below you, would you prefer the person be in front or behind you? And how do you protect your landing? B-air, n-air, laser..?
Tenki, first hit Uair is pretty good horizontally for a uair, but it won't do much vs Wolf's bair. The best you could even dream of is a trade, and that would suck.
I think you would wanna get Wolf from the front like DK. His Fair hitbox is shaped like Marth's (right?) and its most disjointed at his eye level.
I was thinking more diagonally below b-air. There's no way in hell I'd think u-air could take b-air on purely horizontally lol.
As for front/back, yeah, I was thinking that. So it's more likely we'd be facing wolf's back, which would be much safer (for them) in terms of ability to read/punish b-airs.
This is more of a player-based idea but I was thinking of say, staying around/outside that zone (in the picture) and either running in when he's facing forward/firing lasers or trying to get under/behind him. But if we go in front of them, I can't imagine much more they'd be able to do while landing aside from mixing it up by wavebouncing.
Don't forget about RAR. It doesn't matter which way Wolf is facing, lol. He can throw out a Bair whenever he wants, and also canceled Fairs are good too because of the disjoint on that hitbox. I've heard it even beats out Marth's Fair.
Shine > Sonic's everything and it can even beat MK's everything too.
Wolf can do a laser to a RAR bair that is basically the same as Marth's sword making him 100% impossible to approach. Or he can use his fair which is the same as Marth's sword too.
Sonic has slow kill moves and has to trick you into spot dodging and landing in a forward smash to get the kill and if you just dont fall for the trick, then Sonic will NEVER kill you. Wolf can kill 1,000,000 times better.
Wolf 100 : 0 Sonic - Write it up, I think we're done. However, now that I understand Wolf properly, I have to wonder why he isn't top tier?
Tenki, first hit Uair is pretty good horizontally for a uair, but it won't do much vs Wolf's bair. The best you could even dream of is a trade, and that would suck.
I think you would wanna get Wolf from the front like DK. His Fair hitbox is shaped like Marth's (right?) and its most disjointed at his eye level.
Lol MagMarth. I agree fully about the distace sonic should be funish most of wolfs zoning strategy whike giving him just enough space to simply run away if things get hairy. I still don't think his lasers affect sonic as badly as people say. Snake and falco is much worse and sonic can manuver around those okay. Plus I forgot about side b punishment. This just confirms to me even more how even this is.
basically what Magnum (2 posts above me) is trying to say is that the vast majority of people in this thread are bad and this is why we dont do matchup discussions with other characters boards anymore.
arguing with you people is stupid especially when i can beat every single one of you. but its ok, when I embarass my man Joseph Raucher at pound, you guys can feel free to just tell me how much better of a player I am than him as opposed to just admitting that this is an even matchup.
I may have missed this somewhere, but where do you Wolf mains like to CP in this matchup? Just a run down of your 4 best stages and 4 worst stages for this matchup and why you love/hate them.
I assumed Brinstar would be great vs Sonic, but I don't really know.
Also, could someone post some good videos of the matchup being played well from both ends? I don't know of any, but I'll be willing to wait for K.I.D. vs Seagull or something.
basically what Magnum (2 posts above me) is trying to say is that the vast majority of people in this thread are bad and this is why we dont do matchup discussions with other characters boards anymore.
arguing with you people is stupid especially when i can beat every single one of you. but its ok, when I embarass my man Joseph Raucher at pound, you guys can feel free to just tell me how much better of a player I am than him as opposed to just admitting that this is an even matchup.
basically what Magnum (2 posts above me) is trying to say is that the vast majority of people in this thread are bad and this is why we dont do matchup discussions with other characters boards anymore.
arguing with you people is stupid especially when i can beat every single one of you. but its ok, when I embarass my man Joseph Raucher at pound, you guys can feel free to just tell me how much better of a player I am than him as opposed to just admitting that this is an even matchup.
i cheese pizza wherever i want; under bridges, in vast green fields of poppies and clovers, lazily sauntering near the pounding roar of a beautiful waterfall...
Shine > Sonic's everything and it can even beat MK's everything too.
Wolf can do a laser to a RAR bair that is basically the same as Marth's sword making him 100% impossible to approach. Or he can use his fair which is the same as Marth's sword too.
Sonic has slow kill moves and has to trick you into spot dodging and landing in a forward smash to get the kill and if you just dont fall for the trick, then Sonic will NEVER kill you. Wolf can kill 1,000,000 times better.
Wolf 100 : 0 Sonic - Write it up, I think we're done. However, now that I understand Wolf properly, I have to wonder why he isn't top tier?
related to matchup discussion:
Doesn't wolf have a bunch of lag while using laser? I thought about the possibility of him using a laser facing away to turn if he jumps facing you (since facing backwards is better), but all I keep seeing is a laggy move to hit lol.
else:
lolchillman
imo take from the thread what information you can get. It's not like a final conclusion to a matchup ratio will affect your overall gameplay, but picking up things like what they like to do in certain situations is valuable.
Like now I am under the impression that Wolf likes to combo break with shine/jump shine. And apparently they like F-smash less as a kill move but more of an inbetween thing..? Fresh B-air can work as a kill move? I'll watch out for those especially then when Wolf loses a stock then.
I'll keep these things in mind for when I play a Wolf that knows his character better in a match.
It's like trying to get better [at reading] using wifi - sometimes the overall outcome of the match goes to your loss but you might pick up on some habits and get better at reading in the long run.
Shine > Sonic's everything and it can even beat MK's everything too.
Or he can use his fair which is the same as Marth's sword too.
Sonic has slow kill moves and has to trick you into spot dodging and landing in a forward smash to get the kill and if you just dont fall for the trick, then Sonic will NEVER kill you. Wolf can kill 1,000,000 times better.
Wolf 100 : 0 Sonic - Write it up, I think we're done. However, now that I understand Wolf properly, I have to wonder why he isn't top tier?
VS MK Shine beats Tornado and Loop, which is pretty nice, but it far from shuts down MK, that match requires a lot of work and mental conditioning.
VS sonic Wolf has an easier time killing than sonic, but it's by no means easy and the shine is hard to combo into kills, nair to d-smash is better at that. Wolf has about 4 reliable killing moves and if bair is fresh that's 5. (F-air/D-smash/U-tilt/smash).
100-0 was a joke I made earlier, but I honestly think 60-40, especially after watching some videos, there are some good sonics out there.
I may have missed this somewhere, but where do you Wolf mains like to CP in this matchup? Just a run down of your 4 best stages and 4 worst stages for this matchup and why you love/hate them.
I assumed Brinstar would be great vs Sonic, but I don't really know.
Also, could someone post some good videos of the matchup being played well from both ends? I don't know of any, but I'll be willing to wait for K.I.D. vs Seagull or something.
Trent said he hated Brinstar but he'd win every time I took him there.
I love every stage VS sonic other than YI/Picto/Siege, but I don't even play a sonic on a level other than neutrals+Picto, so yeah. I'd assume Rainbow would be annoying too.
Trent and I never recorded any matches and I didn't want to be a **** and save the matches from Jokers a few weeks ago because he was out of practice. But I will try and save some in the future.
Cancelled? How high does he have to be to have autocancel F-air?
I'm just wondering about falling F-airs. If it's got some landing lag, then it's not all too good as a landing protector.
related to matchup discussion:
Doesn't wolf have a bunch of lag while using laser? I thought about the possibility of him using a laser facing away to turn if he jumps facing you (since facing backwards is better), but all I keep seeing is a laggy move to hit lol.
F-smash is a really weak killing move, it's worse than Samus's from knockback stand point IIRC.
Fair cancelling works similarly to cancelling Ganons Dair, you have to input jump and attack basically simultaneously. I still mess it up sometimes on uneven stages like Lylatt and YI. Wolfs fastfall is garbage and I think it would mess up the cancelling, so I personally would only FF a f-air if it was for a kill.
If you shoot a laser in the air and land, there is less lag, just like lots of people.
Fair cancelling works similarly to cancelling Ganons Dair, you have to input jump and attack basically simultaneously. I still mess it up sometimes on uneven stages like Lylatt and YI. Wolfs fastfall is garbage and I think it would mess up the cancelling, so I personally would only FF a f-air if it was for a kill.
If you shoot a laser in the air and land, there is less lag, just like lots of people.
My problem with shine isn't that I doubt that it has the properties to stop the attacks. It's a disjointed thing that has a hitbox that reaches far outside your hurt box. So, I have no problem believing that it can even hit MK out of his tornado. I'm totally down with that. The main issue that I am trying to bring up is that I highly doubt that you can reliably time the shine to hit Sonic the majority of the time, especially if we are in position to follow up on an attack that we already hit with. We have a LOT of options when we are in that situation and an intelligent Sonic will not just use the exact same follow up EVERY time, so how could you possibly stop us with it every time or even most of the time? I think it would work SOMETIMES, but not even MOST of the time.
If you Full hop a laser then you have time to jump afterwards and even fire off another jumped laser. I have no idea what you mean by landing cancellations.
My problem with shine isn't that I doubt that it has the properties to stop the attacks. It's a disjointed thing that has a hitbox that reaches far outside your hurt box. So, I have no problem believing that it can even hit MK out of his tornado. I'm totally down with that. The main issue that I am trying to bring up is that I highly doubt that you can reliably time the shine to hit Sonic the majority of the time, especially if we are in position to follow up on an attack that we already hit with. We have a LOT of options when we are in that situation and an intelligent Sonic will not just use the exact same follow up EVERY time, so how could you possibly stop us with it every time or even most of the time? I think it would work SOMETIMES, but not even MOST of the time.
You don't seem to understand what shine is/does. It neutralizes combos. By shining, Wolf escapes whatever strings you may setup. For example:
Sonic's like to Uthrow>Utilt at low percents or Uthrow>Uair. Wolf can just shine after the Uthrow. Shine isn't an end all solution, but it's very useful and might as well replace an airdodge for Wolf. There is no reason Wolf needs to airdodge if he has shine because that in itself protects him better. Though like an airdodge, even shine can be baited.
If you start going into theorycraft then I'm done posting because you can't use IF/THEN statements to explain matchups.
I think was MDM is trying to say is that shine may get Wolf out of things that are usually guaranteed, but Sonic doesn't have much of that stuff in his core gameplay anyway. It does get to theorycraft at the point I suppose but as this is a matchup discussion , it doesn't hurt to know what 90% of Sonics are going to try to do. Its pretty effective if you don't have a billion jumps or an aerial grab.
Perhaps we can get back to talking about stages? Anyone still in this discussion, if you could just tell me what (in your opinion) are the best and worst stages to start on and counterpick to in this matchup.
For Sonic I would say starting on YI or PS1 is what you want, but FD also seems fine. Avoid Battlefield.
For counterpicking, the 3 best choices seem to be YI, Pictochat and Rainbow Cruise(though Wolf should be perfectly fine on most of the stage). Avoid Brinstar, Battlefield and Halberd I'd say.
Frigate is a fickle stage. Sure sometimes the ledgeless part can be useful against average recoveries, but even then Wolf could probably just make it over the ledge at the cost of some damage. Then you have to deal with the fact thats its way too small for Sonic to do what he wants to do and the 2nd transformation seems just fine for Wolf. Its completely random how much time will be spent on either transformations.
I wouldn't want to bank too much on things randomly screwing the other guy over when there are definite things there in his advantage.
The stage is small. Not talking about the blast zones, but the actual ground to fight on. This makes it much easier for Wolf to fight in his comfort zone (close range and in the air). You don't wanna play an aerial game against Wolf unless the reward is higher for you (exploiting his weak recovery). Which is the difference between Rainbow Cruise and Frigate in this matchup. Thats how I see it anyway.
If you Full hop a laser then you have time to jump afterwards and even fire off another jumped laser. I have no idea what you mean by landing cancellations.
You don't seem to understand what shine is/does. It neutralizes combos. By shining, Wolf escapes whatever strings you may setup. For example:
Sonic's like to Uthrow>Utilt at low percents or Uthrow>Uair. Wolf can just shine after the Uthrow. Shine isn't an end all solution, but it's very useful and might as well replace an airdodge for Wolf. There is no reason Wolf needs to airdodge if he has shine because that in itself protects him better. Though like an airdodge, even shine can be baited.
If you start going into theorycraft then I'm done posting because you can't use IF/THEN statements to explain matchups.
Clearly you know nothing about what you are talking about at all.
You don't get an "escape follow ups free card" out of your shine. We have a billion options that don't require baiting the shine and our bair outreaches the shine. I don't have to theorycraft to tell you that you can't possibly predict us everytime to shine us just right.
Also, why are we even having this matchup discussion with people who don't even know their own character well enough to know that hopping the laser doesn't shorten it's cooldown lag? We can't expect a decent discussion when the other side doesn't know Sonic or even know their OWN character. This is ridiculous.
You're wrong. If you tech in front of Wolf we get a free jab. We aren't guaranteed anything other then Jab if you tech in place. If you tech roll then we can fsmash because it takes forever.
Wolf should never die till the 180's verse Sonic. Sonic can cp YI, but then Wolf can camp the top platform.
Fairs are ******** more then any other move by Wolf. It just ***** him and is always the kill move generally. Wolf can space Bairs and ours are faster and better then Sonics. We have a projectile. And we can't be baited from Fsmashs even if our landing is predicted because we can shine Sonic.
Shine has invicibility and Sonic can't really punish Jumpshine.
Wolf is top ten in weight and very heavy. Sonic is mid weight.
Matchup synopsis: 60-40 Wolf's favor.
He is harder then Fox vs Sonic and maybe even Falco. Those characters are light and easier to recovery predict/gimp. Wolf can scar through the stage and laser plank for better positioning.
Speed, Espy, Shado, and Wedge will likely agree with me. Before X ****riders pop in as usual, X consistently loses to Choice in Wolf vs Sonic from the times they played. I'd MM any Sonic player to this day still. MM'ing Kid at pound 5. I wanna MM Espy and X too. Speed won't MM me, but if he ever did then I would gladly accept.
Bolded parts for emphasis. I played Choice at MLG in some friendlies and i didnt even know it was him! The last game we played, he. would. not. die. He was at like 230 or something like that and he dsmashed me.
Fair is just...i dont know if this is the deal with other Sonics but fair always gets me @ kill %. The spacies just have it out for me. Inb4usuckandino.
I'll MM soon, dont worry. You know me and shado's tricks. But really, I agree with what wedge said about this MU. I honestly dont think this is even.
Clearly you know nothing about what you are talking about at all.
You don't get an "escape follow ups free card" out of your shine. We have a billion options that don't require baiting the shine and our bair outreaches the shine. I don't have to theorycraft to tell you that you can't possibly predict us everytime to shine us just right.
Also, why are we even having this matchup discussion with people who don't even know their own character well enough to know that hopping the laser doesn't shorten it's cooldown lag? We can't expect a decent discussion when the other side doesn't know Sonic or even know their OWN character. This is ridiculous.
Clearly you know nothing about what you are talking about at all.
You don't get an "escape follow ups free card" out of your shine. We have a billion options that don't require baiting the shine and our bair outreaches the shine. I don't have to theorycraft to tell you that you can't possibly predict us everytime to shine us just right.
Also, why are we even having this matchup discussion with people who don't even know their own character well enough to know that hopping the laser doesn't shorten it's cooldown lag? We can't expect a decent discussion when the other side doesn't know Sonic or even know their OWN character. This is ridiculous.
