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Sonic Matchup Export : King DDD

Tesh

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Discussing the DDD matchup.
Best places to strike to?
Best CPs?

What is Sonic's gameplan to stay ahead and score kills?

According to recent discoveries, DDD is apparently very good at killing anyone he can chaingrab.

Good starters for this matchup IMO are Lylat, YI and PS1(but be very very careful with the walls).

I would favor YI over Pictochat here due to the uneven ground and no walls.

Ban RC, Delfino, Castle Seige? Sonic is pretty good at avoiding DDD on those stages though right?

Camp him hard I say.

DISCUSS!
 

-LzR-

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Doesn't Dedede suck in RC? His crappy mobility and vulnerable recovery with the addition to be able to **** up by hitting your head on the part of the stages doesn't help either. I think Sonic wins on RC. Dunno bout this MU though. I can try to have a few games like in a few weeks.
 

Trillion

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I agree that RC is probably in our favor.

What about Halberd? Would the middle slope going downward mess up his chain grab and allow us to get out? We would have longer to fall and we would probably go further sideways before hitting the ground making it harder for him to grab and possibly giving us enough time to spring?
 

-LzR-

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Halberd is really good for Dedede. The size of the stage, being able to recover from everywhere and the small ceiling aids his best killmove too.
And the platform is just the perfect size for him.
 

WedginatorX

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Holding side-B against Cheese until he quits.
It's obvious that you want to try to take him to yi or picto. The better of the two here being picto because you need more room to work vs. Dedede than most characters. As already stated, rc would be a decent counterpick if you can't get rc or yi. Umm... FD or bf? I personally think they're alright vs dedede. Space is good. Veeeeeerry good.

Also, don't be a Wedge and trip into something that costs you the match. Loool.
 

Tesh

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But Pictochat has walls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw

Now you can play keep away somewhat, but you don't want to put yourself through that on your CP imo.

What do you guys think of japes for this matchup? Its not legal around here, but I feel like I would love a high ceiling in this matchup and DDD could easily be pushed into the water.
 

Kinzer

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For some reason it feels like it'd be very difficult to approach a D3 who has control of the mid platform and God forbid you have to approach. Though Japes is very rarely legal anymore, but the more I think about it, the easier to might be to get around. Spinshot will fly over D3, Spin Charging off a platform into the middle will go low real quick or whatever.

I'm not sure if there's any one good neutral to go to. Seems to me like D3 can platform pressure nice and easy, so going to BF over FD where it's just chaingrabs galore is probably personal preference if I didn't know better. I would avoid SV just because if you've successfully gone and pressured a D3 trying to recover, that one platform that's out there can save him and ruin all that trouble... and how often would Sonic need to use that platform himself anyway right?

That's just the standard 3 though. Not sure if anybody else has 5 or 7 to work with. Definitely YI if it's a starter and not banned (but when will that ever happen?).

Then again, who am I kidding? I'll be honest, I am scared of trying to recover against D3. If you try to recover onstage you risk eating a UTilt. Shoot for the ledge and you risk getting cypher gimped. Not always will you have the luxury of being able to recover very high so I'd like to avoid that spot myself if I can. Maybe in this case it might help you every now and then to have something stick out with a big sign that says "I'll save you!"

Oh also, if any of you either had to go to Delfino or CS, go with the latter. You may have to deal with the second transformation more often than you would with the one on Delfino, but at the very least you can camp the platforms. Even if the ones that can be destroyed get destroyed, if you just camp the outermost platforms hanging about, then assuming D3 makes an attempt to approach you, all you have to do is jump or weasel your way to the other side and repeat. I don't care if you're not in the lead, the risk of getting carried off into the blastzone is not worth it.

:093:
 

Tesh

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DDD is harmless on the 2nd transformation on Castle Siege. All you have to do is Spinshot over the top 2 platforms, he literally can't catch you. If he try to come up above the 3rd platform, you can get under him easily. The real problem is perhaps the transitions between transformations where there are no platforms. Depends on how fast the wii loads though.

Delfino seems worse as most of the transformations sort of favor him.
 

dean.

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I don't have much matchup knowledge to impart, but Rainbow Ride is one of Dedede's best stages against anyone he can chaingrab. There's a wall on the ship for wall-infinites, walk-offs on the top part (and a wall up there briefly) and he's not too bad on the moving-up part (he does have multiple jumps and b-air), though I guess he will just try to wait that part out. It's my prefered counterpick stage against all chaingrabbables except like Wario.
 

Mr. Johan

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The one time I played a DDD in tournament, it was as a CP character on RC when he beat me with his ICs on the starter. I did beat him that match, but it took a great deal of effort because I lost my first and second stocks before he did thanks to the CG-> Dsmash on the boat. Great and lucky position near the blastzone helped me win the match, but DDD is still great on RC and I would think it over before I try to take a DDD (or an IC player due to having a backup) to RC.

Recovering against a DDD, I would think, would be very tough. It's not that Sonic can't make it back onstage, but because every option he can choose when his double jump is gone can be covered by DDD's pivot grab, grab, or his Uptilt, leading to a kill with the latter, or kicking Sonic back offstage again (or ending with a kill) with the former two, repeating the process. Sonic has to be very clever when recovering so that he can force DDD to choose the wrong option, allowing himself to get back on ground and get back to running. It may be one of the few times where halting Sonic's descent with Dair and the Homing Attack can prove to be viable at times.

Grab destroys Spin Dash approaches easily and leads to pain, but DDD is so large that Spin Dashes + followups can rack up high amounts of damage regardless. DDD's ftilt is his longest ground move and is used for spacing, but I think Sonic can brake right outside its range, and Spin right at DDD before he can do anything after the move.

DDD's Bair is insane, they know it, we know it, everyone knows it. It has no lag to speak of and it has fantastic priority and range. Fair is slow-ish, but covers an enormous arc and is a kill move. I can't really comment much on Dair and Uair, but I think they can be DIed? Nair....isn't really used much, except maybe as a fastfall option.

DDD has either the slowest or the 2nd slowest overall horizontal air speed - Luigi's might be slower. And with Fair being on the slow side, Sonic can harass DDD with his own Fair and eat DDD's jumps (watch out for Inhale!). DDD's UpB does not have a hitbox as he is rising up, giving Sonic a bit of leeway to intercept it, but DDD can cancel the UpB at any point and descend immediately, so if the ledge is an option to grab, the DDD will likely go for it.

As far as special attacks go offensively, DDDs will be using Inhale and Waddle Dee Toss. Inhale is typically used when DDD is falling back to the ground so it can fight a land-sharking opponent. Inhale is also weird in that DDD can immediately Utilt characters if he decides to let them break out. I've seen videos where it works on Meta Knight, but does it work on Sonic too? As for WDT, They are easily powershielded, but be on the lookout for Gordos. Waddle Dees are mostly harmless, but Waddle Doos can prove to be a nuisance if left unchecked; moves refresh when hitting the Waddles, so there's little reason for Sonic not to knock them away with his ftilt or his Jab combo.

DDDs will be killing with Utilt, Bair if it's fresh, Dsmash, Fair, and most importantly, the new Dthrow - Usmash combo. The last one is daunting, as before Sonic was capable of avoiding DDD's kill moves easy, but now, Sonic will die at 130 to a grab. Trent mentioned before that it is wise to just stick to the edges in the MU so that Sonic won't take that much damage from the CG, but now it seems that idea is more important than ever at kill percents to avoid that Usmash.

I'm unsure about a verdict for the MU, but with that new CG-> Usmash present and omnipresent in the match, I can't see it being better than a slight disadvantage for Sonic.
 

Tesh

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I'm not 100% sure on the frame data on the Inhale release to uptilt. I constantly tried that against Tenki, and he would just footstool or spring away before the frame 9 uptilt came out. In any case, you only release that way if you mash out. If you don't mash out, he automatically spits you out. Any DDD trying to do this might walk to the edge in an attempt to trick you into mashing.

However if he inhales you out of spring (maybe from an edgeguard), you stay "helpless" if you mash out and get released.

Seems worse than slight disadvantage imo. I would place it somewhere within the 60:40 range overall. It really depends heavily on the stage though. This might be a matchup where brinstar could be usable to some extent.
 

Tenki

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oye tesh, find someone to try it on offline lol

Some things are awkward and don't work right online, like Ganon's side-B > dash attack. XD
 

B.A.M.

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This definitely seems at first glance like a 60:40, on some stages 55:45. You have to be able to know your limits in this matchup (kind of like the snake matchup). You gotta know where depending on his position whether or not he has the advantage. DDD standing at the edge? Advantage DDD. Which means we sit in our mid range comfortably and wait to punish what we can. Ftilt? PS and punish. Waddle Dee? shield and punish. If he continues to stay at the edge, use things like FH Fairs or FH fair > spring to wittle his shield and knock him off. IF you are playing a decent DDD dont be a moron and just spindash towards him when he hasnt committed to anything. Thats a free grab. ESPECIALLY with DDD's range.

Hold your spindash to get that shield down then wait for something to punish. At mid range its a wonderful tool vs the peguin. Sh ff uair cross overs also do well when D3 loves to chill near the edge; gets you in and if it lands you get a wonderful juggle. The greatest thing about this matchup is unlike Snake, DDD cant pelt you with anything mid range - long range without taking a risk. Which means we can juggle and wait. Rinse and repeat. Its rushing into this matchup which nets us a loss vs DDD. When you rush like that you place yourself in coin flip situations. Which isnt too bad initially because we should be racking up crazy damage, just as his CG does. Its the fact that he will die WAAY later and kill WAAAY earlier, that makes rushing a bad idea. Take your time, juggle and notice his positioning. You do so, and this matchup starts look like its in our favor.

You play safe and take your time this match feels almost like DK; in the fact that DDD cant really do anything to stop you from doing so. DDD has a hard time approaching. We can punish things at a much farther distance than other characters dream. Its pretty easy to see why this kind of playstyle hurts D3. If played properly I really see this matchup as a 50:50 maybe 55:45 us easily. Seriously, every Sonic main needs to try just being patient on the penguin. He seriously cant do crap.
 

Trent

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Play this match patiently. Man I've done like 2 or 3 write ups of this match already, it's somewhere on the boards. :laugh:

Stay back, be patient, bait attacks, and look for that opening. When the opening arises, combo the crap out of the fat ***. The second he lands back on the ground, run away again, and rinse & repeat. It's sure to annoy the player that he can't grab you since you're constantly out of his grab range.
 

XLR8TION

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hmm wut about taking D3 to fd? it just seems like a good place to try to camp him :L
 

Tesh

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Let's see.. D3..

That's a character you should never approach unless you KNOW there's an opening, or you're really good at feinting. SHFAir wrecks their shield, however they can grab you out of it if they time it right. For the love of god don't get greedy, don't fish for those kills. Just rack up damage and let the kill come naturally, don't expect to kill until 180+, unless you KNOW there's an opening.

Camp camp camp. Get that lead, and camp. Chill around the edge of the stage, so if you **** up and get grabbed, it's only one or two throws. If you're thrown off the edge, get back on ASAP, D3's edge guard game is ********. You're going to have to mix up your recoveries (Such as ASC -> Double Jump). Don't just blindly go for the edge. Take the extra damage if you have too, it's better than losing a stock.

D3 is such a basic character, just like Ice Climbers. All they want is grab. Bait the grab and punish, very simple. If they EVER try to pummel you in grab, you can break out of that easily due to his slow pummel. When you get to about 120%+, start looking out for those UTilts. Never approach him from above, or stay on a platform above him. If you find yourself in a nasty situation on a platform above him holding your shield, just jump. All you have to do, OoS Jump, lol.

Sometimes they like to mix in dash attack while they're chaingrabbing for people who are trying to break out, and catch them off guard. Easily avoidable with shield grab if you see it coming.

DON'T GET PREDICTABLE

Punish him whenever he throws a minion. There is so much lag on it, you can at least punish with a dash attack or SHFAir. Careful of Waddle Doos, I've seen some nasty Waddle Doo -> UAir combos from their electric attack if they're good. If they try to use swallow just spinshot -> BAir that crap. Rocket Hammer is laughable.

FSmash and the very tip of BAir (Perfectly spaced) will push a shielding D3 far enough away that you will not get grabbed. However, I've been grabbed a couple of times before my FSmash and BAir even went off, and if they perfect shield the hit, they get a free grab. Try at your own risk.

All I can think of right now, go ahead and ask any questions if you need answers. Just remember, there is NEVER a reason for you to approach if you're winning. Only approach if you see an opening, and be CAREFUL of getting baited to approach.

By Trent
:):):):):):):):):)
 

Trillion

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I think a stage that does not have long platforms for his chain grab is more important than how early he can kill you. Who cares if he has to get you to 115% to kill you or if he has to get you to 100% to kill you if he is able to get 35% per chain grab as opposed to only getting 15% per chain grab?
 

Kinzer

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... I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you, but are you saying that it doesn't matter how proportion the stage itself is, or the boundaries, or both?

I think something like Japes (though not exactly) with a high boundary line but not too much stage for him to work with might be best.

I can't really think of any better examples right now. FD and BF have like a 1:1 ratio with how big their stage land is and how far away their blastline is in relation to. Something like the 3rd transformation of Helbard might go something more like 1:0.35 in terms of stage:blastline. First transformatino of CS is like 0.65:1. Do note I'm just making these numbers up to get my point across, there's no (formal?) tally or counting system AFAIK.

:093:
 

Trillion

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... I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you, but are you saying that it doesn't matter how proportion the stage itself is, or the boundaries, or both?

I think something like Japes (though not exactly) with a high boundary line but not too much stage for him to work with might be best.

I can't really think of any better examples right now. FD and BF have like a 1:1 ratio with how big their stage land is and how far away their blastline is in relation to. Something like the 3rd transformation of Helbard might go something more like 1:0.35 in terms of stage:blastline. First transformatino of CS is like 0.65:1. Do note I'm just making these numbers up to get my point across, there's no (formal?) tally or counting system AFAIK.

:093:
I mean like where the boundaries are. For example, BF would be a better place to fight Dedede, than FD if they had the same blastzone lengths (I'm not sure if they do) because he can chain grab you farther on FD than on BF.
 

Tenki

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But then again, the length of how far his cg can go is relative to how far away you are from the opposite edge.

:|
 

Tesh

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you know how you can mash out of DDD's inhale "star" to gain control sooner? Well some characters can hit DDD on the way out like Metaknight and Lucario with massive hitbox fast dairs or ranged specials.

Can Sonic do any of this reliably? The only thing I've manged is homing attack (and it only works because people don't expect it), but can Sonic mash out and spindshot against the momentum and back air or something?

Tenki?

Kinzer?

Please?
 

Kinzer

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If you have gotten HA to hit why the Hell can't you get anything else to hit? :confused:

:093:
 

Tesh

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I've never tried anything else tbh. It just occured to me to consider spinshotting, but I don't know if the momentum would properly cancel being spit out.

Just as a mix up ofcourse. All DDD has to do to beat it is spit then uptilt and u die out of the homing attack. But with spinshot, the mix up gets tricky and u can airdodge through the uptilt and grab him perhaps.
 
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