Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Solharath]

Hardly much of a point to argue about it now. Get your money in now, Wizzy, I don't know how much you'll want to stay with Sonic after the patch.

 

[Solharath]

Double posting because whatever it's been a week.

So I helped run the Project M special on Show Me Your News a couple hours ago and I was able to confirm a couple things about Sonic.

Down B is, as expected, completely changed. No longer can you WD out of it, and it doesn't combo into just about everything when you link together a SD hitbox with SDJ, so that nair finisher is gonna have to put in a little more work to kill. If you're looking to WD out of spin, you best stick with Side-b, which as we know isn't frame 1, but Sonic's standard jump frames.

Also another thing to note with Down B is that it's actually fairly different in other aspects. It can only be charged so many times before it auto-fires, meaning you can sit on a shield for days on end, or juggle a spacie for an easy 10%. Eventually, Sonic is going to take off. That said, the highest charge does more damage and I believe knockback, so it's different that way, too. You can make the charge last the longest with timed 'B' presses to eek out the highest strength spin.

Didn't get to ask many other questions about Sonic before we moved on to the Meta Knight reveal and other changes. Still.

2.6 tomorrow. Get that hype.

 

[Arcalyth]

Those sound like a lot of really rational and awesome changes. I'm really excited for this update to drop. MK HYPE THO. Might have to put one of my other secondaries away for a little bit...

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I heard on Show Me Your News that there is no more WD out of Down B.
http://www.twitch.tv/showmeyournews/c/2586743
around 25 minutes, maybe.

 

[Wizzrobe]

everyone post in this thread.



Also, I have played a little and so far his HA seems pretty good still it seems they added just slightly more lag but not to the point where its useless. Blast attack is there still but I can't use it for the same stuff i used it for before.

spin is really dumb though as it cant do the spin > jump > instant nair on lots of characters now which i was worried about. I think i have found a use though

 

[O-Koa]

The only use I've found for his down-b is a run away mechanic, so far. I've been trying to use it almost never since 2.5 though so for me it's not that big a loss. His side-b has less of an arc when used in the air and now you can't air dodge out of up-b even after an aerial. This throws me off whenever I'm trying to recover.

 

[Wizzrobe]

The only use I've found for his down-b is a run away mechanic, so far. I've been trying to use it almost never since 2.5 though so for me it's not that big a loss. His side-b has less of an arc when used in the air and now you can't air dodge out of up-b even after an aerial. This throws me off whenever I'm trying to recover.

Side B is still good on ground it seems its just shortened

oh

 

[O-Koa]

Yeah I use side-b a lot on the ground. I still like it.

I can still jump out of it in the air, just not right away. I think its about the same window as the ground side-b.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Yeah I use side-b a lot on the ground. I still like it.

I can still jump out of it in the air, just not right away. I think its about the same window as the ground side-b.

Oh, it works for me now lol i dont know why it didnt before.

 

[O-Koa]

I can't seem to do a slow d-air anymore. I guess they took that out too.

 

[Solharath]

Crazy salty about no slowfall dair. That was a great tactic that added depth of choice to the character. I know Sonic had ALL the options before, but now he's just committed to everything he does ever.

Tch, ah well. At least Fair is stupid good now, so we'll have that until 3.0 before it gets nerfed again. Seriously, what the hell is up with Fair now it's so good.

 

[MasterRaichu]

I would really love to know the official reasoning for taking away the wavedash out of spindash, AND crippling the spindash with very visible reads and automatic release, all at once. The spindash+wavedash+tilt was a majorly good approach and shield-pressure option for sonic, and without it, makes it extremely tough to pressure. I would also love to know why they took the extra step to make the spindash completely telegraphed with blinks and auto-release, no matter what. It was absolutely not an overpowered move that required THAT much nerfing.

I'm also not happy about my side-B in the air losing the float options while recovering. This is also now totally telegraphed for my opponent. I have two total recovery options that both leave me wide open now.

To all the other Sonic players here: Has anyone found anything besides a slightly-stronger F-air to compensate for the Sonic nerfs? Or did they totally just **** up our main?

 

[Solharath]

Uhm, well, yes and no. Nair doesn't kill anymore, but I've been finding some use for it as decent damage dealing and combo extender. Sonic's tilts are mostly as good as ever, but killing our ftilt, nair, spin combos... it was really too many nerfs all at once. That said, this Sonic probably wouldn't be getting the flak it's getting if it weren't for 2.5 Sonic.

However, the point was to make everyone top tier. First impressions showcase a good character that no longer has the options to really take on the top tiers on equal footing. B-tier material, maybe less.

I still don't get why slow-fall dair was taken away. The move itself feels weaker as well, but I'll withhold that statement until the changelist is out.

In the end though, I think what I feared is exactly what happened. Other characters were buffed up, and Sonic was nerfed back down to where they were. Instead of balance, I'm seeing just a new set of imbalance.

But it's day one...ish. Maybe it'll all work out in the end.

 

[GeZ]

I think Sonic did get hit my the nerf train pretty hard but honestly his last iteration was insane. I'm not saying I don't think some of the nerfs were unnecessary but Wavedashing out of everything was insane and gave him stupid combo and pressure potential. I felt guilty about playing 2.5 Sonic just because I knew he was too good. His tools let players overcome a skill gap that should be worked through, and have a much MUCH higher reward for all tech skills.

New Sonic feels strange, but that's normal. It's day 1 of the new patch. We don't know what cool new tricks he has, and I think once people manage to escape the despair of the "what did we lose?" mind set, they'll find that he's still a fun, great, character. Just with different strengths.

As for new Sonic, his Nair doesn't kill anymore... But, it's got some interesting gimp potential and definitely fits better into combo's. Try SHFFL'ing it into Fair or Bair, Or for that matter, itself. I managed to get a rep of 3 of them into a Bair, which seems like a new tool. His Uair works much better with his new game. More stuff combos into it, and it combos into way more stuff. His Fsmash is faster, hits harder and has more combo potential. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think his Usmash might have a bit more brunt behind it. His Side B is still Wavedashable, just not right at the start. So it doesn't necessarily have the same application, but who knows what tricks it could be foreshadowing?

All in all, he feels more like a smash character now. I know that phrasing might seem toxic to some of you Blue Blur Denizens but I think it's the best way to describe the new changes. He's got more use for his tech skill, and a combo game that functions like the rest of the casts. I hope you guys give the new iteration a chance before throwing him away. I know I'll be rocking that new Purple Flash Color and spinning the days away for a while longer.

 

[MasterRaichu]

That's what it seemed like to me too. They wanted to balance him, but instead they totally decimated his play style. If anything, they could've done the following to 2.5b Sonic to even him out:

• make the homing attack slightly more telegraphed
• add a tiny bit more end-lag to things like his smashes & up-tilt to slow him down
• not make the side-b (pre-slide kick) a razorblade-type move

My opinion is that the 2.5b iteration of Sonic was perfect minus a few things that were slightly unbalanced. He's fast and has a lot of pressure, but he generally doesn't kill that fast, doesn't have a lot of priority. I play with pretty good players, and I can tell you from experience that he was definitely not OP as it was. However, his entire game was built on the shield pressure from spindash+wavedash and tech chases, and now they've made it extremely hard to play a combo/pressure game... IMO There was no good reason to make these terrible nerfs to him all at once.

 

[GeZ]

Maybe he plays a different game now. His new tools seem to lend themselves more to combo's than his old, breathe down your neck and flick your ear, pressure.

 

[MasterRaichu]

Maybe he plays a different game now. His new tools seem to lend themselves more to combo's than his old, breathe down your neck and flick your ear, pressure.

With any luck, you're right. I didn't see anything wrong with the previous iteration's overall game before though, it just needed some tweaking to balance it. It would be nice if the PMBR would stick to a Sonic iteration between releases in the future.

 

[Shell]

If it is any consolation v2.6 Sonic is the result of very deliberate attempts to increase commitment on attacks while keeping the majority of the character as similar as we possibly could. Being as he is the fastest character in the game, his polarized kit is naturally quite difficult to nail down perfectly.

We had several alternative versions of Spin Dash in testing which redefined the role of the move in a way that made it different but not necessarily worse.. but ultimately chose something more familiar with higher commitment.

We know that Sonic has a very unique playstyle, which can be fun to use and flashy to watch. As developers, though, it falls upon us to balance the fun of playing as a character against the fun of playing against a character. This is very subjective but the response on playing against Sonic was fairly negative by a significant margin, too wide a margin to dismiss as the product of subjectivity.

The tweaks that were put into place were those directly suggested by the active Sonic mains within the PMBR -- it's not just "us" dumping on "your" character, we like Sonic, too, even if it's hard to believe sometimes.

 

[MasterRaichu]

Shell, I understand the desire to add commitment to the moveset, but while the player definitely commits to the spindash now, it's also super telegraphed. Also, I found that even if you successfully attack with it, its hit trajectory largely puts Sonic within range of the opponent's [insert aerial attack here] while it leaves him completely defenseless.

The spindash is arguably the most extreme change to Sonic, but combined with the other minor tweaks, he's really at a huge disadvantage now, at least in the context of his previous play style. Can you give us some more details on the new intentions of Sonic's play style?

 

[Shell]

I myself am not a Sonic main, so I've really spoken in about as much depth as I can on the matter. Hopefully Sethlon or FireBallStars can get in here with some more depth.

In general try leveraging your amazing speed / DD / new Fair stats and slightly longer JC grab in the neutral game. Side-B can, afaik, still be pretty useful in the neutral game. Also play around with connecting Spin Dash hit into the Turn hit, I think there might be some potential there for setups, but I personally need to explore that more. Sorry I can't help more.

 

[MasterRaichu]

No problem. I appreciate the in-depth response! The PMBR has done really great work with P:M and I am not trying to throw pissed-off Johns in any way. I was just super happy with the previous play style before, and it seemed like the 2.6 nerfs were a knee-jerk reaction to somewhat unbalanced character doing slightly ridiculous things in combo videos.

 

[Juushichi]

My jokes and jabs aside, I think there are a lot of other parts of his game that Sonic players need to look at now. Cancelling into and out of your B moves is an extreme luxury that a lot of characters don't have (and in Spacies senses, probably should be nerfed) and with both the Down-B and Side-B changes, I think forces Sonic to have to play the neutral game more like many other characters in that regard. Shell alluded to it but I think this is what needs to be emphasized in the 2.6 Sonic game that I think was never really necessary in builds of the past.

Explore his grab and throw game, his dash dancing, moonwalking and mixup game... everything before the hit. Playing 2.6 Sonic as briefly as I have so far, I'm actually pretty interested to see where some of the non obvious combo game lies. Like Falcon, I think getting [to] your followups should not be a problem this character has, but now it's more of a question of with what do you follow up with.

I'm willing to guess that not many people have found out the answer to those things yet, but that's what playtesting is for.

Good luck!

 

[Wizzrobe]

I myself am not a Sonic main, so I've really spoken in about as much depth as I can on the matter. Hopefully Sethlon or FireBallStars can get in here with some more depth.

In general try leveraging your amazing speed / DD / new Fair stats and slightly longer JC grab in the neutral game. Side-B can, afaik, still be pretty useful in the neutral game. Also play around with connecting Spin Dash hit into the Turn hit, I think there might be some potential there for setups, but I personally need to explore that more. Sorry I can't help more.

the spin dash turnaround hit is what I have also found to be the best/only way to get anything started when hitting someone with spindash. It has different properties now that make it feel inconsistent when hitting with it but I'm still figuring it out.

 

[Sethlon]

I still don't get why slow-fall dair was taken away. The move itself feels weaker as well, but I'll withhold that statement until the changelist is out.

Slow-fall dair was not a Sonic-targeted change, it was a global one. MK could also slow fall his dair before the revision.

It is of note that SideB is almost unchanged from 2.5. The jump cancel-able frames are a little bit further now, but its still very good at pressuring shields with its multi-hits, leading into bair pressue on block and slidekick -> edgecancel shenanigans on hit. SideB wasn't really explored that much in 2.5 because downB was just flat out better, but its still a quite nice tool.

Shell, I understand the desire to add commitment to the moveset, but while the player definitely commits to the spindash now, it's also super telegraphed. Also, I found that even if you successfully attack with it, its hit trajectory largely puts Sonic within range of the opponent's [insert aerial attack here] while it leaves him completely defenseless.

The spindash is arguably the most extreme change to Sonic, but combined with the other minor tweaks, he's really at a huge disadvantage now, at least in the context of his previous play style. Can you give us some more details on the new intentions of Sonic's play style?

DownB is weaker, but I wouldn't say that its useless. While the skid stop (pressing shield on the ground while spinning around) isn't as fast as wavedash cancelling, is still fast enough to get away with some fake outs and maneuvering tricks. DownB charge -> release -> instant skid stop is a good way to bait out moves from your opponent, and hitting someone with the downB and then skid stopping far enough away is safe on shield/crouch cancel. DownB -> turnaround is a decent set up for some followups (as Wizzrobe mentioned), and is the safest way to downB at someone near the edge of a stage. At higher percents I've gotten stuff like downB -> skid stop just after hit -> uptilt. The reward isn't as good as in 2.5, but the risk for using it is still low if used right.

As for the intentions of Sonic's play style; he's designed to move away from spinning all the time and using other moves in neutral. His fair comes out fast and meteors opponents on the ground, leading to faster approaches and great combos, and is more rewarding against opponents in the air. His standing grab's range has been improved a bit, so dash dancing -> grab is more lenient. Both changes lead to him having a better out of shield game. Uair links to the strong hit better, and while nair doesn't have near as much kill power, Sonic can use it as an approach and then chase into other moves at the right percents. Overall his downB is worse, but most of his other options in neutral are better.

 

[Solharath]

Did not know about being able to skid stop my Down B. I'm not in the habit of pressing buttons in the middle of my moves. Cool idea, I'll see what I can do with it.

Yeah, the turn hits are very Squirtle-esque, and they're welcome, just... weird. I'm not saying it's great, just... well, it's something. Still, a lot of my old play remains intact, even if I can't get an ftilt kill on the edge of the stage anymore until 150%(Seriously, I know nerfing it was a priority but that much?), I am more in the gimping game for nair now(I believe it lasts longer?). So it's something.

Sonic 2.6. It's something.

 

[Bombitty]

Probably just in my head, but if I'm not mistaken, Fair's trade off for being better is longer endlag? I'm finding it much harder/impossible to run off the ledge->Fair and still have time to jump before dying on stages other than YS.
Nevermind I'm a big dummy

 

[Solharath]

You must be fast falling or something to die from Fair... But it's increased endlag came from the transition from 2.1 to 2.5, not between 2.5 and 2.6, I think. In any case, I haven't noticed it being longer.

...But yeah the global slow-fall change? Actually sounds pretty terrible, to be completely honest. I'd love to see that kinda option open up for characters with quick dairs and specialty moves like that, like Wario's Dair and ZSS DownB special kick. I really don't approve of not allowing that... but hey, that's me. I like options, you guys like commitment to moves.

Although seriously? Removing this is seriously the worst thing that's happened to Sonic. At least, for me. This is the old 2.0 Sonic, back when HA was like, never missing ever. It was really well balanced by 2.5. Removing absolutely all the options out of Down B makes the move feel like, Fox's Fair level situational.

 

[Bombitty]

Yeah I was aware the endlag was increased from 2.1. I figured it was just my head messing with me, but I used to pull it off every time in 2.5 even when fast falling. In fact I almost always use this method which forces FF. But for some reason it wasn't working as consistently, at least I thought so. But hey, I can still john about it til the change log is released, right?
See post above. I had caught a case of the dumb.

At least you can attack earlier from up-b. Probably the only good change made regarding up-b. I know it doesn't help much without being able to air-dodge afterwards, but not being able to wall jump after spring really irks me.

 

[O-Koa]

Something I found interesting is that footstooling after up-b grants you another up-b. I never noticed that 'till today. I'm not sure how helpful this is though.

 

[Nazo]

I enjoy the new Sonic, honestly. Sonic's style of play may have changed, but that doesn't mean he's bad now; Although I cannot mindlessly mash down-B on people's shields for pressure, I enjoy having to think before throwing out my down-b. Skid stop is definitely my new best friend when it comes to mind games and escaping my opponent's range, or just getting to the ledge faster. I like to look at Sonic's new design as more of a brawl-styled Sonic playstyle, where majority of the game is spent being evasive and pestering the opponent into opening themselves up (rather than being super aggressive with special moves), following up with quick combos that lead into gimps and gimmicks. Utilize Sonic's run speed as apposed to abusing spins to move about the stage.

tl;dr: He's like a ground version of Jigglypuff imo.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I feel like Sonic's biggest problem now is his horrible kill power. They should of kept his kill power from 2.5 the same and kept all the other nerfs then he would be fine.

 

[GeZ]

I agree. His Fair spike is one of the only ways I can guarantee a kill. What do you think about his gimping?

 

[Wizzrobe]

I agree. His Fair spike is one of the only ways I can guarantee a kill. What do you think about his gimping?

is his fair a spike now? I need to play a bit more with Sonic.

but overall his gimping is weaker.

 

[iLink]

I'm pretty sure it is still a meteor.

 

[jt5565]

I found that there is a active hit box that sends the opponent straight up when you jump mid spin charge. I was able to follow up with any aerial, smashes with a platform, and specials too.

 

[MasterRaichu]

Ok, so after my previous posts, I've spent a bit more time solo trying to figure out this new Sonic. Here's are my observations:

• F-smash is way stronger than it used to be. I was able to kill a Ganon with an uncharged F-smash on Battlefield at 74%.
• F-air is a lot faster. After I got used to the timing it was refreshing to have better control over it. Contrary to what people have been saying, you can definitely still land a F-air after connecting with a Blast Attack (i was worried about this because it's a great combo starter at lower percents, and thankfully it's still here).
• because of F-air's release speed, it really works a lot better when catching people on the edge with Side-B and rolling off. You can score a meteor against some characters nicely.
• N-air is slightly weaker but still has K-O potential. As others have said, accompanied with good tech skill, you can juggle opponents across-stage with it mid-game. I'm not too concerned about it.
• I feel like B-air is faster. Not sure if that's just me looking too hard for changes. When I get some real opponents in front of me we shall see.
• D-air falls fast, but I see that a strength instead of a weakness.
• U-air might have more combo potential, but it lost it's ability to kill from a springboard launch. Had an opponent up to 150% and couldn't kill with U-air at the peak of the springboard launch.
• Side-B's float options no longer exist, at least as they previously were. When holding Side-B mid-air before, you had a nice bit of speed control and float that could be used to recover well horizontally. It also helped when jumping out to guard the edge. Now the Side-B is affected more by your current gravity. When jumping and using side-B you get a tiny bit of lift, but when falling, you either hold to recover straight across, or press and release to drop. I feel like this has made Sonic's edge game a lot tougher.
• I think the Springboard itself has lost a bit of knockback. Some characters could previously be gimped by a well-placed springboard at higher percents, but now they seem to recover despite it.
• Tilts are good, dawg. Use em. F-tilt wins games for sure.
• Despite the addition of the skid-stop for mind games, the Spin Dash really lost a lot of what was good about it. You can't jump out of it while charging. You can't wavedash out of it. As I said before, the blinking really telegraphs it to the opponent. I like that it's retained the ability to change direction midair once you jump with it, which provides for a sneaky forward-momentum B-air here and there. I guess in the PMBR's eyes their goals have been met, because I am using it way less, but I'm still not certain at what cost to the character overall.

Obviously it's only been 2 days since the new release, so we've got a ways to go before we really figure out this character. My initial impressions are still that they went overboard with the nerfs, but there are some good things about the revamp, so we'll see.

 

[DireDrop]

What are people using to approach now? As someone said above, I find I have to play him more like I did in Brawl. I evade, runaway, and pester until my opponent messes up. I guess that's fine, especially since Sonic has a much better move set than he did in Brawl, but it was nice to be able to... just... Attack!

 

[Nazo]

What are people using to approach now? As someone said above, I find I have to play him more like I did in Brawl. I evade, runaway, and pester until my opponent messes up. I guess that's fine, especially since Sonic has a much better move set than he did in Brawl, but it was nice to be able to... just... Attack!

Well, if you grow tired of running away, you can always approach the opponent by crossing them up with Side-B from behind; it gives you many options out of it.


I may be the only one, but I feel as though footstooling opponents after down-B seems easier than it did in 2.5.

 

[DireDrop]

I totally forgot about footstooling. Can you combo into something else from that? Like dair or homing attack?

 

[Wizzrobe]

I totally forgot about footstooling. Can you combo into something else from that? Like dair or homing attack?

MK too god.