Sonic Counters

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

@ Blue Shell.
wario's recovery sucks much more than sonic's... or most characters' for that matter...

Oh really? When you actually use his bike and/or your fart to recover, Wario's recovery is pretty amazing.

 

[BentoBox]

Wario's recovery is more than decent.

 

[ShadowLink84]

well... really only her Fsmash, U smash and Nair can be DId out of, but even with that, she's still a beast. Certainly better than sonic... but I digress, this isn't a zelda board.

You forgot her explosive teleportation and faster din's fire and sexy Nayru's love.

RAWR!

I think its still too early to start making discussions on who is better since we did after all think Marth sucked when we first saw him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay now WTF to you. How long have you played brawl with sonic? You are saying that the Gamecube controller is better than wiimote and nunchuck. I mean you probably only used gamecube controller. Wiimote with nunchuck offers best control with sonic and gamecube controller is outdated. Now how about you play as kirby and i play as sonic lets see who wins.

no... really, the wiimote is a gimicky controller. The GCN controller just works better. it's a standard gaming controller. Nothing about the wiimote makes it better in any way for using sonic, or any other charcter in my experience. and I really doubt you could make a convincing argument against it. I don't play a kirby... I play a sonic, a zelda, a Pokemon trainer, and a jigglypuff... and I'd take any of them against your sonic.... not that I could... I mean it's obviously an empty threat at this point.

you can't just post "the wiimote + nunchuck works better" and offer no reason why. And the fact that the GCN controller is older is not a valid argument.

and about wario's recovery... if you read the context, it's showing why he shouldn't use bite in an attempt to kamikazee... and I stand by it.... he just can't recover if the oponent breaks out before he/she dies.

 

[fouxs2]

I've seen Lucky play with Sonic, and I can say he doesn't seem to have problems with other fast players, and ***** slow players. Heck, he shows Sonic can be decent against basically anyone as long as you don't spam his KO moves. From my experience, his forward air, up smash and down throw are awesome damage builders even when weakened, I use them without fear, Sonic's grab game is awesome because of his speed and his range isn't that bad. Forward air can be comboed out of an Up B, short hop, normal jump, heck, you can use it quickly out of anything and the opponent is hopeless as long as you know what you're doing.

Also, I've seen VERY little people use Up Air at a combo string, it even combos as a chain of Up Airs if you're good enough, and even weakened I've seen it kill. Awesome move.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've seen Lucky play with Sonic, and I can say he doesn't seem to have problems with other fast players, and ***** slow players. Heck, he shows Sonic can be decent against basically anyone as long as you don't spam his KO moves. From my experience, his forward air, up smash and down throw are awesome damage builders even when weakened, I use them without fear, Sonic's grab game is awesome because of his speed and his range isn't that bad. Forward air can be comboed out of an Up B, short hop, normal jump, heck, you can use it quickly out of anything and the opponent is hopeless as long as you know what you're doing.

Also, I've seen VERY little people use Up Air at a combo string, it even combos as a chain of Up Airs if you're good enough, and even weakened I've seen it kill. Awesome move.

I guess I'll take this to mean that lucky is good, because sonic... well... is not. so if lucky is winning consistently, I'm gussing that he's better than who he's playing against.

Sonic isn't sucktacular or anything, but he's defenitely not "decent against basically anyone"

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Honestly, it really just seems like you're not too hot with him. =/

 

[Brown NITE]

Zeal my boy!!! i agree with you

 

[Hokkaido]

Actually, Sonic's grab game isn't so great; personally I had more trouble dodging Meta Knight's... The problem with Sonic is that his dashing grab doesn't move at the same speed as his running does, so you still need to be literally right next to your opponent when you do it (usually a no-no vs. heavy hitters and characters with longer range), and even if you do use his dashing shield grab, it's actually rather standard compared to that of the other characters.

On the other hand, Hyphen Smashing with the C stick while running at full speed will let Sonic keep his super-momentum, and will often move him right into the opponent for most of the damage it would do if you initiate it early- It works wonders, and I'd recommend using that more than trying to play the grab game.

 

[Lyoncet]

I guess I'll take this to mean that lucky is good, because sonic... well... is not. so if lucky is winning consistently, I'm gussing that he's better than who he's playing against.

I agree with Zeal. This statement works both ways.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree with Zeal. This statement works both ways.

no... honestly I know where my skill is in relation to those I tend to play. Omni and Pyro are better than me, but I'm better than everyone else. (this is, of course, among the group that I tend to play with, not the whole smashing community)

Anyway, sonic still has a tough time against most of my oponents who are anywhere near my skill level... and I honestly can almost never beat omni or Pyro with sonic, even though other characters do okay. I'm the best sonic out of the whole group though. I mean, none of the others EVER win with sonic which leads omni to believe that sonic might be the worst character in brawl period... I'm not inclined to believe that, but it's clear he's bad... I'm really not sure how you can believe differently.


and Hokkaido's right. Sonic's grab game sucks. Grabbing during a dash is a terrible idea with him... for some reason, his dash grab doesn't have the range that you'd think it should. maybe we'll find a way around that eventually, but so far it just doesn't work the way that you'd think it should.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

The way around it is just getting up in their face and grabbing. It's not like he has Ness' running speed. Just don't be predictable.

You're the best Sonic out of your group. That's like people that come to Melee tournaments and think they're going to win because they beat all their friends, then get 4 stocked 4 times and go home. Honestly, right now, everyone is finding different mileages with different characters. Just because you don't do well as Sonic doesn't mean that Sonic sucks. You're only a small part of the scene, and, if I recall, properly, neither you or omni was part of the scene later on. I could be wrong, I didn't check pools for any of the Pound tournaments, or anything like that, but I hadn't really even seen you guys in singles for any big tournaments. =/

EDIT: I digress, though. You lose a lot as Sonic, and therefore assume it's the character, and not how you play with him. Sonic is FAST, really fast. I played my first Sonic ditto two days ago, and I gotta say that his >b and vb have a LOT more priority than we thought they did, seriously. I played against him with Ike, and, while I was able to punish him for being predictable, I absolutely HAD to know where he was going, or else I couldn't hit him. Do weird **** with Sonic, play to make them look stupid, it works.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The way around it is just getting up in their face and grabbing. It's not like he has Ness' running speed. Just don't be predictable.

You're the best Sonic out of your group. That's like people that come to Melee tournaments and think they're going to win because they beat all their friends, then get 4 stocked 4 times and go home. Honestly, right now, everyone is finding different mileages with different characters. Just because you don't do well as Sonic doesn't mean that Sonic sucks. You're only a small part of the scene, and, if I recall, properly, neither you or omni was part of the scene later on. I could be wrong, I didn't check pools for any of the Pound tournaments, or anything like that, but I hadn't really even seen you guys in singles for any big tournaments. =/

EDIT: I digress, though. You lose a lot as Sonic, and therefore assume it's the character, and not how you play with him. Sonic is FAST, really fast. I played my first Sonic ditto two days ago, and I gotta say that his >b and vb have a LOT more priority than we thought they did, seriously. I played against him with Ike, and, while I was able to punish him for being predictable, I absolutely HAD to know where he was going, or else I couldn't hit him. Do weird **** with Sonic, play to make them look stupid, it works.

the thing is... EVERYONE in our group does poorly with sonic... I'm just the only one who isn't condemned to lose by using sonic. I AM used to his speed I really am. the problem is with is priority and his kill moves. nothing more. Using his speed is a great way to build damage and to flee/close gaps... but when push comes to shove,. sonic just can't finish the job well enough to be anything but bottom teir in my eyes.

 

[fouxs2]

You shouldn't worry about his kill moves. You strike me as someone who is always trying to KO someone once they get at the percentage you want. Sonic is NOT about that, you combo the character using your speed and if they get KOed in the middle, awesome. Try not worrying about killing someone, I mean it, you'll find it a bit... "calmer" than worrying about the KO.

Also, people forget that DAir is a good mindgame once you get used to the no lag height (using it so that when you hit the ground, you suffer no lag). Don't use it to hit your enemy, use it to get close to them and tricking them into attacking you, that's when you dodge and punish them for the opening or shield their move and grab them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You shouldn't worry about his kill moves. You strike me as someone who is always trying to KO someone once they get at the percentage you want. Sonic is NOT about that, you combo the character using your speed and if they get KOed in the middle, awesome. Try not worrying about killing someone, I mean it, you'll find it a bit... "calmer" than worrying about the KO.

Also, people forget that DAir is a good mindgame once you get used to the no lag height (using it so that when you hit the ground, you suffer no lag). Don't use it to hit your enemy, use it to get close to them and tricking them into attacking you, that's when you dodge and punish them for the opening or shield their move and grab them.

no... I'm playing the way you are saing pretty much... and it still doesn't work. I mean, I'll shift to a more KO oriented mode once my enemy gets enough damage that they can start DIing out of auto-combos (like the USmash or Fair) this is normally somewhere upwards of 150% damage, but usually before 200% damage... anyway, yes, sonic needs to be played differently, but, while that does make him better, it doesn't make him great... or even really good... just fair or passable

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'll agree there. He's not great, especially right now. Just not horrible.

 

[Lyoncet]

I think one of the problems here is that it's coming off as if we're questioning STHD's skills at this game in general. There are some folks who, for whatever reason, just do better (or worse) with certain characters and playstyles. For example, I beat everybody that I come across no question with Fox (keep in mind I'm talking casuals here), but no matter how hard I try, all my friends stomp me if I use Marth. It's not because I'm bad at Smash or because Marth sucks; it's because I'm just not a good Marth user. (I don't know how that's possible, but I somehow pulled it off.)

(Note that this following is not directed at STHD, but at the community in general)

My thought on the subject is that whether Sonic is god-tier or dumpster-tier, don't try to make him something he's not. If you don't do well with him, just move on to another character. Make claims about your experience with the character rather than general claims based upon isolated incidents. Nobody will (or at least should) take one person's opinion as gospel. Rather, just tell us your experience and we'll decide for ourselves what it means.

/end hippie "can't we just all get along" rant

 

[Sonic XD]

Um hedgehawg, you should see how the wiimote nunchuck works. The wiimote with nunchuck offers more flexibility and you dont have to move your fingers as much. With the gamecube controller all it is is just CLACK CLACK CLACK. The wiimote has better control because its thinner and lighter. In fact, I think that it is the best controller for using sonic.

 

[Lyoncet]

Since when are "thinner" and "lighter" traits of a good controller?

 

[Sonic XD]

Since when are "thinner" and "lighter" traits of a good controller?

I heard that the wiimote uses less finger movements.

 

[fouxs2]

True Lyoncet, and a bit off topic, but I suck as Marth too, and I seriously don't know how....

Thing is, Sonic needs work, come on, we thought Roy was top tier at first didn't we? We just need to learn his ins and outs. I can't really explain it, but I just rock with Sonic, I don't know if it's because I'm inherently (or however you spell it) good with him, because he fits my style, or whatever, but to me, he's good. Pretty thing about Smash: It's simple, but character play styles vary between them, so maybe Sonic just isn't for you, since his style as a character is different than something that would fit you better.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Wiimote+nunchuck is horrible for Sonic. It's horrible for Ike, IMHO. I've been practicing with it for the GameStop tournament. It's no gamecube controller, that's for sure.

Not bad, just not as good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ sonic DX... does this mean that you haven't actually played and that you are saying that you think that the wiimote+nunchuck would be better because of things you've heard about it?
regardless, my argument for the GCN controller is probably one that most people would agree with: it's more intuitive as a controller. Really the Wiimote is a gimicky controller for a gimicky system... but Brawl isn't a gimmicky game, so using a remote designed for gimmicky games as opposed to using a standard controller for a standard game doesn't make much sense... it's pretty clear that the game is designed with the GCN controller in mind... the other controllers are offered as options because it's not guarenteed that one will have a GCN controller. at least... that's the way sakurai makes it seem in the dojo.

@ everyone else.

I suppose that's true... I was rather poor in melee with most characters after I'd mained jiggly for a while because she plays so differently than anyone else... though I was still decent with my secondary: sheik.

I'm trying to get that same thing down with sonic... even at the detrimant of some other characters... and I'm starting to notice that I'm going into a sonic mode... I haven't had as much time to get into his groove, of course, but I think I'm at least down the right path... only there aren't any nifty tricks yet.

 

[Hokkaido]

@ sonic DX... does this mean that you haven't actually played and that you are saying that you think that the wiimote+nunchuck would be better because of things you've heard about it?
regardless, my argument for the GCN controller is probably one that most people would agree with: it's more intuitive as a controller. Really the Wiimote is a gimicky controller for a gimicky system... but Brawl isn't a gimmicky game, so using a remote designed for gimmicky games as opposed to using a standard controller for a standard game doesn't make much sense... it's pretty clear that the game is designed with the GCN controller in mind... the other controllers are offered as options because it's not guarenteed that one will have a GCN controller. at least... that's the way sakurai makes it seem in the dojo.

@ everyone else.

I suppose that's true... I was rather poor in melee with most characters after I'd mained jiggly for a while because she plays so differently than anyone else... though I was still decent with my secondary: sheik.

I'm trying to get that same thing down with sonic... even at the detrimant of some other characters... and I'm starting to notice that I'm going into a sonic mode... I haven't had as much time to get into his groove, of course, but I think I'm at least down the right path... only there aren't any nifty tricks yet.

I can see melee-veterans sticking with the gamecube controllers (we all do here), but it's possible for new players to use the wiimote or wiimote+nunchuck combo; we tried all three setups ourselves just for fun, and though we couldn't get used to either of the wiimote setups, they're not actually that bad by all means- you would just have to get used to using it.

The Wiimote on its own forces you to use up for jump (which is why I would never use it), but the nunchuck makes it actually a bit similar to the GCube controller.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I use up to jump anyway... and I hated the wiimote... it's impossible to finesse with that D-Pad. The nunchuck attachment made it more bareable... and the classic controller was better than both of those... but nothing seems to compete with the classic GCN controller... it's just made for the game... and the game's made for it.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Everyone else is poor with Sonic in your group because...

do the words HIGH LEARNING CURVE mean anything to them? I've both played Sonic AND seen what he can do, and what he can do is far beyond what I've been seeing other Sonics do. Both Snake and Sonic have really high learning curves, but it applies even more so to Sonic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Everyone else is poor with Sonic in your group because...

do the words HIGH LEARNING CURVE mean anything to them? I've both played Sonic AND seen what he can do, and what he can do is far beyond what I've been seeing other Sonics do. Both Snake and Sonic have really high learning curves, but it applies even more so to Sonic.

you know that you are rather abbrasive. and, while a high learning curve is one explanation... so is being bad in general.. and it's not like the two are mutually exclusive... who says that it's between:
"sonic is great but you don't know how to play him" and "sonic's terrible"

it can easily be, and, in fact, probably is "sonic's decent at best and is also one of the harder characters to play"

in a semi-sarcastic attempt to use your own argument against you: perhaps they reason that you are blaming sonic's learning curve for everything is because YOU can't play sonic and so you figure everyone else is having the same trouble.

honestly... there are learning curves, to be sure, but none are near so insurmaountable as you are making them seem.

 

[Sonic XD]

People that say sonic will be low tier havent played him enough, in fact i can probably play better than most of the smashers here with sonic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

of course... I have no doubt that you and you alone will unlock the secret that makes sonic a top teir character

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Lol, Sonic can shine. Also, you can throw rings as a projectile. More later.

jkjklolololol, sonic wishes.

Aww.... D:

 

[InterimOfZeal]

EDIT: aww... smashboards makes me double-post a lot. D:

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lol, Sonic can shine. Also, you can throw rings as a projectile. More later.

jkjklolololol, sonic wishes.

Aww.... D:

I actually wouldn't be a fan of shining.. I think it's a lame move BUT... I mean... how excited would you be if spring drops actually spiked without stage ricochetes?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

That would be ******** good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hey.. he nees a retarted good move... you know... like maybe it still acted like a spring when it fell and sprung them away.

 

[Napilopez]

I don't mean to go all Nntendo fanboy on you, and I havent't played the game, but I'd like to disagree on the topic of Wiimote + Nunchuck control.

The following is all opinion.

First of all the Wii and Wiimote aren't gimmicky, just new. Sakurai tried to the best he could to incorporate all control options well.

Honestly, what does the GCN controller have that the Wiimote + Nunchuck combo doesn't? I think its simply your muscle memory and custom of using the GCN contoller thats impeding you from appreciating this new control method.

If you haven't already, I would recommend you read this great article regarding Wiimote and Nunchuck control: http://www.wifiwars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281

It brings up great points as to why this may be at least as good as the GC controller and probably better.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the wii is nothing if not inventive... but this inventive nature leads it to feeling awkward and gimicky... I mean.. there's no reason to mess with a good thing. Smash and the GCN controller are tight... and since nothing really changed control wise from melee besides the inability to light sheild, the GCN controller still fits perfectly.

The other controlls just seem.... unecessary... like they were added so that the game would feel more like a wii game and so people who don't own GCN controllers can still play... but it doesn't seem like they work as well... and, yes, I've played with all controllers.. and, yes, some of my bias is because the GCN controller is familiar... I'm sure... but I can't see pros using anything but GCN controllers... not like pros are always right or anything <_<

 

[Napilopez]

I see where your coming from, but its how some people may have thought the N64 controller was a better option than the GC one for smash (I dunno why but some did =P). I'm pretty sure that if we had been forced to use the Wiimote + Nunchuck only, the pro's would be just as good or better than they will be using the GCN controller.

But hey, to each his own! I'll be using the Wiichuck definately.

So yea, maybe I shud get ack on topic

 

[BentoBox]

Playing with the mote/chuck is about as intuitive as using the claw with the GC controller; for the people who bother to master these setups, it works wonders and they can execute things a lot easier. But since wireless is frowned upon in competitions...

And it's kind of funny how until Sonic will not have proven to be able to compete to the likes of Olimar, toony and Marth, etc, this discussion will just stale around the fact that he has untapped potential.

< Is eagerly waiting for results ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I see where your coming from, but its how some people may have thought the N64 controller was a better option than the GC one for smash (I dunno why but some did =P). I'm pretty sure that if we had been forced to use the Wiimote + Nunchuck only, the pro's would be just as good or better than they will be using the GCN controller.

But hey, to each his own! I'll be using the Wiichuck definately.

So yea, maybe I shud get ack on topic

hmm.. well I mean, a big difference is that, at least the N64 and GCN controllers are standard gaming controllers... no gimicks... but I digress.. to each his own.... but I really don't see wiimote+ nunchuck as better in any way... especially this early on... it just blows my mind that people are thinking that.

 

[C-Dizzle]

LOW TIER, ive seen some sick stuff outta him, only if people use him right though.