Sonic Counters

[Sonic XD]

There are characters in the game that counter each other. Who do you think counters Sonic? Is it diddy or luigi?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well... in my experience, Luigi and Kirby so far are complete **** against sonic... he just can't get around their high priority aerials... not to mention most of their moves are stronger faster and higher priority in general.

 

[Sonic XD]

Why do you think kirby is a sonic counter?

 

[Sonic XD]

Double posted

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

because kirby is too small for sonic to hit with a lot of his sand-by moves, such as U smash. and his finisher, F smash is hard to connect with too... plus. Kirby's superior airgame, and ungimpable recover means that there isn't much that sonic can do, at all, to hurt him... much less kill him.

 

[Sonic XD]

What about Sonic's Bair?

 

[Brown NITE]

Luigi definitely does well against Sonic. Kirby seems like he will, but I haven't played him yet.

Oddly enough, Metaknight isn't too bad, despite his massive priority/disjointed hitboxes. I dunno why yet, though, but I really don't mind the match-up.

Also, all Sonic mains should pick up Zelda, mmhmm. Feels nice to kll below 100%

Edit: this is zeal

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

odd... sonic is my main, followed by zelda as my... well... she'll be my main anytime I want to win.

but metaknight isn't a problem because he can't kill super easy. and he's someone that sonic actually can kill at low damages... All of metaknight's kill moves leave him prone and sonic's Fsmash outprioritizes and outranges a lot that metaknight could do to him.


as to Sonic XD about Bair.... um... both kirby and luigi can outrange and outspeed sonic's bair. and can also outpower it... there's just no way that we know of to get around these poor match-ups for sonic. It just looks like a sonic vs. an equally skilled, or even slightly less skilled luigi or kirby won't turn out well for sonic

 

[Sonic XD]

There are many small characters such as pikmin and olimar, but sonic KOs rely on speed and recovery gimping.

 

[SonicMario]

I'm more interested on who does Sonic counter. Which characters does Sonic do best against?

 

[Espy Rose]

Also, all Sonic mains should pick up Zelda, mmhmm. Feels nice to kll below 100%

odd... sonic is my main, followed by zelda as my

Strange...

I was thinking about making Zelda a secondary...

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I'm more interested on who does Sonic counter. Which characters does Sonic do best against?

Seconding this question!

 

[Sonic XD]

Sonic can counter characters like olimar and some larger characters like D3. Sonic users have to watch out for certain characters like kirby and luigi.

 

[Brown NITE]

Soni does NOT counter D3. He does really well against Olimar, and I really don't mind the Sonic v Snake match-up too much.

Sonic has to watch out for high-priority characters, mainly those with range. Oddly enough, he does fine against Metaknight, and I don't mind vsing Marth. Lucas is my worst match-up right now, and Ganon is kinda a pain, too.

EDIT: Zeal, lolololol

Also, Sonic has to watch out for people that make posts regarding him when they haven't played the game. =D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sonic actually doesn't do poorly against dedede... if we can manage to improve his game, he has the potential to counter him... but thus far... I've only gotten him to really spank a bowser or a DK... though I can put a hurtin on a ganon as well.

but yeah... there's really a whole lot of problems on the sonic boards with "never-played-it"s saying how to use sonic and how he does in certain matchups due to youtube.

I'm thinking sonic's gonna take a lot of work... but his unique playstyle has the potential to counter a few characters which would otherwise be much better than him.

 

[Lyoncet]

I'm curious to see how he fares against Ike. The long recoveries just scream punishment (does that sound bad?), but those hitboxes man...

Actually, I think Sonic will be a counter to anybody who's playing over wi-fi. You could do more with him than any other character in that .5 seconds of your opponent's input lag.

edit: Interesting about seconding Zelda. I'm holding out judgment until I get the game, but I'm strongly considering Sonic/Ike in that order.

 

[Sonic XD]

sonic actually doesn't do poorly against dedede... if we can manage to improve his game, he has the potential to counter him... but thus far... I've only gotten him to really spank a bowser or a DK... though I can put a hurtin on a ganon as well.

but yeah... there's really a whole lot of problems on the sonic boards with "never-played-it"s saying how to use sonic and how he does in certain matchups due to youtube.

I'm thinking sonic's gonna take a lot of work... but his unique playstyle has the potential to counter a few characters which would otherwise be much better than him.

Ganon can no longer use L-cancelling, which makes ganon very slow. Ganon is likely nerfed.

 

[Hokkaido]

Ganon's actually a beast in this game once you get used to his new form. Many of his attacks combo now, so if you slip up as Sonic, you'll pretty much just die. Not to mention his forwardB in mid-air is a kamikaze when not over the floor.

Ike can also rip Sonic apart, mainly due to his ultra-priority (I really think at this point that it's one of the highest if not the best priority in the game) and reach. It's not so bad gimping an Ike player with projectiles, but with the fact that Sonic actually has to go out and meet him makes it risky on his part... not to mention it usually takes a high amount of damage to get him out there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well... ike is flinchproof while recovering making him darn hard to gimp... and despite his slow speed, the fact that he can probably KO sonic from 0% damage makes him a big threat.

Ganon is very new, he plays incredibly differently. but not all of his combos are sure things, so if you can wriggle out, you are okay. it's easy to see the ganon-cide recovery coming, so it's easy to avoid unless you are already attacking when he does it. Sonic's reidiculous veritical recovery means that ganon's spike doesn't normally finish him. Sonic can gimp ganon's recovery... well... I mean, you can't easily gimp any recoveries in brawl, but this is one of the easier matchups to gimp a recovery. true, ganon doesn't need to do much to pull out a victory, but sonic should be sufficiently quick enough to make it hard for ganon to land his attacks. and ganon is slow enough that sonic might actually land a Fsmash, Dsmash or Bair (Though ganon's air game is still scary)

Playing sonic normally means being patient, smart and quick to get in and out..

 

[fouxs2]

Sonic does well with characters with laggy atacks in general, thanks to his speed, and characters that can't outpreoritize his aerials. But characters with high priority, well, we'll just have to find a way right? This is how we develop in Smash, learn and adapt.

 

[Shade_666]

I'm curious to see how he fares against Ike. The long recoveries just scream punishment (does that sound bad?), but those hitboxes man....

well... ike is flinchproof while recovering making him darn hard to gimp... and despite his slow speed, the fact that he can probably KO sonic from 0% damage makes him a big threat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7TqMgfUipY

Here is a vid of Sonic Vs Ike his speed of course out matches Ike's which gives him a big advantage and the way this sonic player edge guards is pretty interesting, he uses the Spring of the ^B in the air to hit Ike. I found this pretty interesting because it can go pretty low and doesn't leave sonic open to counter attack

 

[Digital Angel]

I'm more interested on who does Sonic counter. Which characters does Sonic do best against?

Sonic doesn't counter anyone because he blows, except maybe Yoshi, Bowser, and DK but all of those characters suck so it's not saying much. I've played Sonic only five or six times since the Japanese version came out and I'm already thinking about switching mains to TL. Like I think literally there will be a good deal of match ups Sonic will not be able to win no matter how good his player is barring the other person sucking completely. This is how badly Sonic is out-prioritized.

I realize Sonic hasn't been completely fleshed out yet, no one has really but his priority will doesn't give us much room to work. At this point it's looking as if Sonic will be high-low at best and maybe that's being too generous.

Yes, I am pretty pissed about this.

 

[Sonic XD]

Sonic doesn't counter anyone because he blows, except maybe Yoshi, Bowser, and DK but all of those characters suck so it's not saying much. I've played Sonic only five or six times since the Japanese version came out and I'm already thinking about switching mains to TL. Like I think literally there will be a good deal of match ups Sonic will not be able to win no matter how good his player is barring the other person sucking completely. This is how badly Sonic is out-prioritized.

Actually sonic can counter olimar because olimars pikmin are hard to hit sonic with.

 

[Sonic XD]

Oops double post.

 

[Hokkaido]

Actually sonic can counter olimar because olimars pikmin are hard to hit sonic with.

Don't think so; A good Olimar player's pretty hard to beat if you don't pressure them, and his smashes are simply ridiculous (without considering even which Pikmin is used). Though Sonic's great for in-and-out's, he's not so amazing compared to other characters with greater damage/priority at pressuring.

If that's not the case, then just consider me talking out of personal experience =/.

 

[Lyoncet]

Sonic doesn't counter anyone because he blows, except maybe Yoshi, Bowser, and DK but all of those characters suck so it's not saying much. I've played Sonic only five or six times since the Japanese version came out and I'm already thinking about switching mains to TL.

I think we've found the problem.

Of course, that is merely logic, and people aren't moved by logic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Don't think so; A good Olimar player's pretty hard to beat if you don't pressure them, and his smashes are simply ridiculous (without considering even which Pikmin is used). Though Sonic's great for in-and-out's, he's not so amazing compared to other characters with greater damage/priority at pressuring.

If that's not the case, then just consider me talking out of personal experience =/.

my personal experience mirrors yours. While sonic kills pikmin easily if the olimar you are playing is dumb enough to spam "pikmin throw", sonic should be terrified of olimar's smashes... not to mention olimar's high damage, high knockback, high priority air game, and how hard it is to connect vs. an olimar.


and, @ Digital Angel, spring dropping is a really common tactic with sonic... one of his better moves actually

 

[Sonic XD]

Using a wiimote + nunchuck makes sonic easier to use and makes sonic more effective. Hedgehawg might have been using GC controller. Wiimote + nunchuck gives better control.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Sonic doesn't counter anyone because he blows, except maybe Yoshi, Bowser, and DK but all of those characters suck so it's not saying much. I've played Sonic only five or six times since the Japanese version came out and I'm already thinking about switching mains to TL. Like I think literally there will be a good deal of match ups Sonic will not be able to win no matter how good his player is barring the other person sucking completely. This is how badly Sonic is out-prioritized.

I realize Sonic hasn't been completely fleshed out yet, no one has really but his priority will doesn't give us much room to work. At this point it's looking as if Sonic will be high-low at best and maybe that's being too generous.

Yes, I am pretty pissed about this.

So you haven't played other slow characters.

I've had no difficulty beatiing out somebody like Zelda, who's much better this time around, and Marth's not as dangerous as somebody like Metaknight.

Oh, and I bet your spacing/pressure game sucks. Actually you know what, I think that's the entire reason you're failing as Sonic, and as well a lot of people.

 

[Digital Angel]

So you haven't played other slow characters.

I've had no difficulty beatiing out somebody like Zelda, who's much better this time around, and Marth's not as dangerous as somebody like Metaknight.

Oh, and I bet your spacing/pressure game sucks. Actually you know what, I think that's the entire reason you're failing as Sonic, and as well a lot of people.

You haven't even seen me play. :/ And dude, beating your scrubby friends doesn't count as beating a character. Anyone can stomp on nubs.

You can't even spam Sonic's good moves B-Air and F-Air because then you have virtually nothing to KO with because the knock back will blow because of the spam rule or whatever. I still haven't been able to get an F-Smash off consistently on anyone good. I want to Sonic to be good as anyone but unless someone is able to find a way to get around his priority. You can only be so unpredictable when you **** priority and have like 2 1/2 decent KO moves and maybe 2 good damage building moves.

I mean yeah, Sonic's play will drastically change from here but so will the other characters who look like they are inherently better than him. It doesn't look like people are going to be pulling advance techs out of their ***** that could have a chance at making Sonic better either like in Melee.

 

[Lyoncet]

You haven't even seen me play.

True, but...

I've played Sonic only five or six times since the Japanese version came out.

I think it's safe to say that your meta-game could use a little development.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wow

You haven't even seen me play. :/ And dude, beating your scrubby friends doesn't count as beating a character. Anyone can stomp on nubs.

You can't even spam Sonic's good moves B-Air and F-Air because then you have virtually nothing to KO with because the knock back will blow because of the spam rule or whatever. I still haven't been able to get an F-Smash off consistently on anyone good. I want to Sonic to be good as anyone but unless someone is able to find a way to get around his priority. You can only be so unpredictable when you **** priority and have like 2 1/2 decent KO moves and maybe 2 good damage building moves.

I mean yeah, Sonic's play will drastically change from here but so will the other characters who look like they are inherently better than him. It doesn't look like people are going to be pulling advance techs out of their ***** that could have a chance at making Sonic better either like in Melee.

wow this whole post reeks of epic failure and yes i know that phrase is overused and corny. but its the only thing that accurately reflects the crap that this kid is spewing. i dont even know where to begin rufuting all of the WRONG that was here but ill try...
#1. if ppl only had 4-5 worthwhile moves the devs. wouldnt give them a full moveset. i mean, even ganon's u-tilt from melee had its place and time. so dont say any of his moves are worthless just because "you played the game 4 or 5 times" and got wrecked

#2. if you are good enough, you can ALWAYS be more unpredictable. look at gimpyfish

#3. Are you Sure you like Sonic, cause if you did you spend less time complaining and more time getting better with the char. thats what STHD did.

#4. did you ever think that the reason you suk with sonic and that you cant land a f-smash or win a match is because you SUCK at THE GAME!!! you even said your self anyone can stomp on a nub. it works backwards too. Getting beat by your friends that are better than you at the game does not necessicarily mean sonic is a bad char.

so you can go ahead and switch to TL just because he looks like he's better than anybody else. while the REAL sonic fans will stay honest and true to our char. and make him great no matter what

 

[Hokkaido]

Aside from Snake/Ike/Kirby, I play Sonic probably the most out of the other characters. I'll admit I don't have a 100% familiarity for a feel in his moves, but I can definitely play him well enough to beat my friend's mains (Dedede/Meta Knight) occasionally... And even with that, I've had a difficult time deciding who he'd be good against, since it's hard to measure exactly how much skill two players of different characters need to have it considered an "equal match of skill but with different characters".

 

[Digital Angel]

True, but...



I think it's safe to say that your meta-game could use a little development.

Fair enough, but Sonic would have shown at least some promise by now if he was going to have a chance at being good. Honestly, I really hope I eat these words because I would love for Sonic to be good. He's my favorite video game character ever. I'm not giving up on Sonic as a main yet, he'll be my secondary character I try to develop once Brawl drops in a couple weeks.

wow this whole post reeks of epic failure and yes i know that phrase is overused and corny. but its the only thing that accurately reflects the crap that this kid is spewing. i dont even know where to begin rufuting all of the WRONG that was here but ill try...
#1. if ppl only had 4-5 worthwhile moves the devs. wouldnt give them a full moveset. i mean, even ganon's u-tilt from melee had its place and time. so dont say any of his moves are worthless just because "you played the game 4 or 5 times" and got wrecked

#2. if you are good enough, you can ALWAYS be more unpredictable. look at gimpyfish

#3. Are you Sure you like Sonic, cause if you did you spend less time complaining and more time getting better with the char. thats what STHD did.

#4. did you ever think that the reason you suk with sonic and that you cant land a f-smash or win a match is because you SUCK at THE GAME!!! you even said your self anyone can stomp on a nub. it works backwards too. Getting beat by your friends that are better than you at the game does not necessicarily mean sonic is a bad char.

so you can go ahead and switch to TL just because he looks like he's better than anybody else. while the REAL sonic fans will stay honest and true to our char. and make him great no matter what

Dude, I'm not even bothering reading anymore of that. You think I'm going to take Brawl advice from someone who doesn't even write well enough to structure a sentence properly?

 

[Blue sHell]

Something to keep in mind about Sonic counters in the future:

Sonic has a very hard time approaching Wario. Wario's Bite is basically a shortranged constant grab he could leave out and retract fast. At any given moment that Wario thinks Sonic will approach him(aerially or grounded) Wario could just camp his Bite.

Bair spaces well enough to not get caught, but absolutely all his spin dashes and most of his aerials just fly right into his mouth. This causes Sonic to mostly play defensively vs Wario, and Wario is a character that takes A HUGE advantage when he's battling defense.

Just something to keep in mind because I know most of you haven't played a Wario main before.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay a few comments here:

@ Sonic DX
1) WTF? the wiimote? really? from your other posts, I don't really get the impression that you are an experienced smasher. But I suppose I could at least ask WHY you think using the wiimote would give you more control than the GCN controller for which smash was built.


@ Kuja, from a few posts back
2) nope, DA was pretty much right about all that he said sucked with sonic. I mean, true, sonic might be better than he's giving him credit for, but it's not fair to say that DA totally sux with and that's why he's losing when sonic loses often against people of slightly less skill through people of more skill. (anytime a less skilled oponent has the edge on you because of your character, that character isn't good)

3) The sad truth is that sonic does counter some characters (normally the big and slow ones), the prolem is that these characters are normally bad anyway, so he's not countering characters that he needs to counter... the exception is maybe DDD, since, while not a true counter, sonic vs. DDD seems to be pretty equal, and, thus far, we think DDD is pretty good. As for zelda, I really don't see how he counters her... but the problem is that I'm the best zelda of my friends so I can't really play against myself to test this. but since his bair puts him in dager of a lightning kick and his Fsmash is outranged, outprioritized and outspeeded by a few of zelda's ground moves... I'm seeing problems here... maybe try gimping her recovery... but if she can sneak past him, she can gimp sonic since he can't simultaneously attack someone on the edge and grab the edge.

@ DA's response
4) seems about right to me... he has few killing moves and few substantial damage building moves. Even if tricks are discovered, I'm still thinking most characters are inherently better than sonic.

@ da K.I.D.
5) the developers normally don't know crap about how to balance characters, look at fox and mewtwo in melee or Pikachu and Link in 64. they probably enjoyed the way sonic's moves looked and thought "they are all functional" but, oftentimes, the only reason to use some of his moves is to avoid geting move decay on his better moves... really he deosn't have a plethora of moves that are worth it.... look at zelda for example... only really her standard "A" attack and maybe transform won't be used much in battle. All her other moves have purposes... sonic players are far less versitile and have far less moves to chose from.

6)Even among those moves, some are highly situational, and, thusly, predictable. I would be able to forgive the "all my moves look the same" blandness of sonic if it meant that enemies couldn't predict which spinning move sonic was about to do and that, thusly, made him unpredicatable... but most of those moves aren't especially good, and are easily countered... in fact... they are all pretty much easily countered the same ways, so even if your oponrnt guesses wrong, you still might end up paying.

7) but you see, this presents a problem. I've spent so much time trying ot develop sonic that I'm obviously more specialized than any of my friends... in other words, I'm better with sonic than they are with any given character... so, oftentimes, when I win, I feel like it's just becuase I'm better... I'll have to give the game time for my friends to grow in familiarity with characters before I can accurately assess some things.

8) I'll back up DA here. Fsmash is hard to land, believe me. only saving grace is that the hitbox extends to overlap sonic's body so that it can still hit even if the foe is behind the punch, which is a nice surprise. Otherwise, the attack's miserable priority and speed/range ratio make it pretty hard to land... and, despite having good knockback, the knockback isn't enough to excuse the otherwise horribleness of the attack. I'm getting beaten by kids who are obviously worse than me, just because I'm sonic sometimes, so DA does have a leg to stand on; HOWEVER, despite being one of the worst characters, the spread from top to bottom in brawl isn't anything like melee, so, despite sucking utterly, a sonic beating a toon link, zelda, marth.. whatever is a thousand times more likely than a low teir from melee beating a melee fox. At least, at this point of the game.

@ Blue Shell.
Wario often can't retract that bite in time to avoid being Fsmashed. also, homing attack hits from above meaning it can often land. and his Dair can do prety well too... as can anything from behind wario... and it doesn't work as a good wariocide because it's hard to pull off and, if you escape, wario's recovery sucks much more than sonic's... or most characters' for that matter... the worst thing about wario is figting him on a platformed stage.... sonic hates platforms as he can't break through wario's Uair... or the U airs of many characters... not to mention it completely renders his homing atatck worthless. If you guys have a different experience, let me know, but platforms seem only to screw up sonic lots of times.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Zelda does have many functional moves but the main problem is that many of her moves are DI able and since they knockback on the last hit this can be problematic. Especiallly for moves like her F-smash and U smash which are a practical necessity for her. As ryoko he knows more about Zelda and he'll tell you how they screwed Zelda over again.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda does have many functional moves but the main problem is that many of her moves are DI able and since they knockback on the last hit this can be problematic. Especiallly for moves like her F-smash and U smash which are a practical necessity for her. As ryoko he knows more about Zelda and he'll tell you how they screwed Zelda over again.

well... really only her Fsmash, U smash and Nair can be DId out of, but even with that, she's still a beast. Certainly better than sonic... but I digress, this isn't a zelda board.

 

[Sonic XD]

okay a few comments here:

@ Sonic DX
1) WTF? the wiimote? really? from your other posts, I don't really get the impression that you are an experienced smasher. But I suppose I could at least ask WHY you think using the wiimote would give you more control than the GCN controller for which smash was built.

Okay now WTF to you. How long have you played brawl with sonic? You are saying that the Gamecube controller is better than wiimote and nunchuck. I mean you probably only used gamecube controller. Wiimote with nunchuck offers best control with sonic and gamecube controller is outdated. Now how about you play as kirby and i play as sonic lets see who wins.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Now THAT does raise an interesting point. You think that different control methods work better with different characters? Please elaborate on this, XD.