Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4lucario: and :4sonic: vs:4shulk:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)

Thank you! :drflip:
 
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Damandatwin

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Warning: extremely in-depth analysis below.

Lucario - MU sucks because he has aura and we can't kill. 80:20 for Lucario.

Shulk - MU is great because he has garbage frame data and we're fast. 80:20 for Sonic.

All of this is substantiated by at least two or three For Glory matches. You're welcome.
 
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Login_Sinker

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:4sonic: vs :4shulk:

I've played this MU a few times in tournament. Granted, I live in a very scrubby area, but I can still offer some insight. It's definitely an uphill battle for Shulk. His mediocre frame data makes it quite hard for him to approach us, and a lot of his moves are heavily punishable thanks to how fast we are. He does have his Monado arts, but they don't help him a whole lot. Since none of them help his sluggish moves, it doesn't take much to just camp them out. Plus, if you're aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each one, his strategy will immediately become telegraphed by whatever art he switches to. I feel like the only way a Shulk would beat Sonic at a high level is if the Shulk player was extremely on point with his reads. All in all I see it as a pretty good example of a high tier decimating a low tier. Final verdict :4sonic: 70 : 30 :4shulk:
 
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miniada

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:4sonic:70:30:4shulk: due to SANIC SPHED shulk has a hard time approching combined with bad frame data gets punished easily he also gets combo'ed and he can camp out his MONANDOH BOIH arts
 

Login_Sinker

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:4sonic: vs :4lucario:

This MU is a double edged sword. Sonic is significantly faster than Lucario all around, but the aura wielding furry has an enormous advantage in the way of kill power. We're a character who kills extremely late as it is, and Lucario is a heavy character who dies late, and gets stronger the more his percent builds. With us being only mid weight, he can kill us with a sneeze when he has aura. I feel like the MU is heavily dependent on getting the lead. If Sonic does take that first stock, and ceases the need to engage, then he can camp pretty effectively. If the reverse happens, however, then Sonic will be forced to mess around in Lucario's space in order to try and bring it back to even. Being in the position where you have to approach is not good against Lucario, since that just makes him have a significantly easier time killing you with a Bair at 50%. We also have to watch how we land, because a max aura sphere is large enough to cover a ton of space. Not good at all when you fall as slow as Sonic.

I put it at :4sonic: 45 : 55 :4lucario: . I give Lucario the slight advantage because he kills us way easier than vice versa, and he only benefits from us racking up damage in the process. His advantages just outweigh Sonic's in the MU, in my opinion.


On a misc. note: Lucario's B reverse aura sphere charge can be very effective at stopping Sonic's approaches, and it combos into an Usmash for a 50% kill. Soooo watch out for that.
 
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Masonomace

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Can't say that I've played the :4sonic: MU when I'm playing :4lucario:. I'll have to try that out with someone I suppose. Now as for the :4sonic: MU when I'm playing my primary, :4shulk:, I can't say it's that much in my favor based off the two local tournaments I've attended. I had quite a struggle with Sonic, but I've beaten both sonic players I met up there even though the sets were close.

When talking about the regular non-custom MatchUp, you don't have HSD or any favoring custom specials I'm not thinking about for the Shulk MU, & I don't have Decisive arts or Hyper arts or Advancing Air Slash or Dash Vision or Power Vision. So basically, it goes like this for regular Monado arts:

  1. Jump -- You may want to respect our Short Hop option because we can fake-out with either using an aerial or not & tomahawk. Jump art's Short Hop mixups with or without fast falling are quite scary when you think to shield when we don't attack. When you find an opening though, capitalize hard on that opening & rack up plenty of damage because our fall speed / gravity is much increased to around Falco's fall speed value, but we're mid-heavy weight also, so think of juggling Jump art like we're combo fodder. Make Shulk deactivate the art when you get your hands on him.
  2. Speed -- We don't have running speed as fast as Sonic, but nonetheless we're faster than Captain Falcon who is the second fastest character without Monado arts involved. Our pivoted options are pretty neat & our ground speed is fast enough to keep up with Sonic. Shulk's walk speed is much beyond Sonic's walk speed, so we could choose to walk without having to over-commit with our dash sequence to running toward you.
  3. Shield -- You'll realize if you haven't already that in this art, you won't have much success killing Shulk. Shield can frustrate players who are too impatient because they see Shulk surviving in the late 170% and up. You just gotta accept this by taking advantage of Shield art's weaknesses, which are the huge lack of everything-speed. If he's at high percent, get a grab near the ledge & throw him off-stage to force the art's deactivation. If not, know that they have to recover low if they don't deactivate it. You can basically just run around & play keep-away from this art, which should be easy for Sonic.
  4. Buster -- Don't get hit. You deal slightly more damage to this art, but it's best not to trade skirmishes with this art since it likes to have you within Shulk's mid-far range but not too close to Sonic. The shield knockback & damage on-shield with this art active is quite strong so think to perfect shield against Shulk's moves when you see them coming. When you outplay this art, you'll probably force Shulk to deactivate if they haven't already.
  5. Smash -- Respect the kill power it grants to Shulk's moves: F-tilt, U-tilt, all three smash attacks, F-air mostly used off-stage, B-air, U-air, a meteor or sourspot D-air, Air Slash, the back-hitting Back Slash, a Vision counter especially if it's Forwarded, & B-throw and D-throw. However, the damage dealt on-shield & the shield knockback are awful, so you shielding the attacks is not a problem & something you can do. Know that this art tends to make Shulk players more grab-happy because our B-throw & most especially D-throw near the ledge are quite dangerous, so it's not too good of an idea to sit in shield either. Even F-throw can kill but only slightly worse than B-throw.
So basically, expose the weaknesses of the Monado arts & play patient. You can't really camp Monado Jump or Monado Speed because their increased mobility can choose to keep up with you following any mistakes made. But you can easily out-camp and or play keep-away from Shield Buster & Smash in Neutral or in the Advantage.

Overall, a lot of Shulk's moves especially his aerials are unsafe on block if Shulk is playing sloppy with them. Play smart, patient, & exploit Shulk's not-so-stellar frame data. But be mindful of the range he possesses, as his D-tilt is Frame 10 with neat range, & Air Slash being Frame 10 has greater range than D-tilt but much more punishable if used incorrectly. Jab-1 starts Frame 5 & can lead to dealing an average of 16 - 18% in Buster so stay alert of that. We have many BnB combos out of N-air, so when Sonic makes a mistake, Shulk's OoS Air Slash or his N-air landing can lead to some combos. I forgot to mention this, but Shulk having Art Landing Cancels with the art's activation makes Shulk's aerials more safe for the most part. Not to mention we have grounded mixups with the Monado art activation on the floor.

I don't really like giving MU scores.
:cool: "Bummer Mejores!"
 
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Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4ness:and :4sonic: vs:4ryu:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.
It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)

Thank you! :drflip:
 
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miniada

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:4sonic:60:40:4ness: ness can't use projectiles cause sonic can shield off of spindash. He has enough speed to punish everything ness throws out. And can easily edgeguard ness.
idk about :4ryu:.
 

Login_Sinker

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:4sonic: vs :4ness: 60:40

Ness is going to have a hard time getting any big damage on a patient Sonic. Ness simply isn't fast enough to keep up with him. If the Sonic is playing evasively enough, then Ness probably won't be getting many PK fires or grabs, which is where he can get big damage. It's much too easy for Sonic to reset to neutral and shut Ness down whenever he tries to get something going. Plus, Sonic wins handily when it comes to the off stage game.

:4sonic: vs :4ryu: 55:45

Not super certain on this one, but Ryu reminds me of Mario a bit. While their tools are a bit different, they both seem to excel in the "All Rounder" archetype. As such, I think Ryu Sonic has the same ratio as Mario Sonic. Ryu has good options to stop spins, and can get obscene amounts of damage if he gets in Sonic's face, but he's not very fast, giving Sonic a lot of potential to run away with the game if he gets a lead. I feel like this was displayed fairly well in Komorikiri's set with 9B at Umebura F.A.T.
 
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yoshi8984

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:4ness:
Ah, this MU... I'm a Ness main, and I can tell you I HATE this MU LOL. I honestly think this is one of Ness' worst MUs. :p

Vs. Kels

==

The problems here (and yes I mean MANY) are that Ness cannot play how he's used to.

My playstyle is often going aggro and getting the grabs and starting combos and getting the follow ups. I ALWAYS throw out moves to cover myself. However, Ness' neutral is VERY lackluster. He can't fight at long range cause his projectiles have so much lag and are easy to see coming. He's slow and doesn't like approaching on the foe's terms. Also he has a gimpable recovery.

It's practically impossible for Ness to get a grab (unless Sonic whiffs a U-Smash but even then Ness has to be pretty close AND quick to get it) and he literally can't use his Specials like at ALL. You can't use PK Fire because Sonic will punish you for it AND even if it does land, Ness gets no follow up because Sonic can just Spring out of it. And he's not fast enough to catch Sonic's landing from Spring. PK Thunder is not an option either. x.x

Meanwhile, Sonic's top notch speed allows him to punish at almost any range. I also can't sit in my shield either because Sonic's Spin Dash does solid shield damage AND he will usually hit my shield safely (just watch how I tried to hit with an aerial OoS as Spin Dash was coming but BARELY missed as she jumped). Sonic's grabs are nothing to scoff at either and can cover Ness' landings pretty well with his speed.

Ness also can't recover too well vs Sonic. Spring eats up a low recovery (it will either hit him and knock him too far away to recover or cut the distance by half) and Sonic's Bair is pretty scary when you have to try and get back. He can use it to read a ledge jump as well, U-Smash also covers a neutral ledge get up.

Honestly I think one of things Ness has in this MU is Nair. A well timed & spaced Nair will allow Ness to beat out Spin Dash (it does require some decent timing), but I feel like that's Ness' main tool in this MU. Bair/Uair also work on occasion. Yo-Yos can also work decently in stopping Sonic's approach (but a whiffed one will get him punished).

==

HOWEVER... Why the hell would Sonic have to approach Ness in the first place? He almost never has to LOL. Ness has an insanely hard time trying to catch him; therefore Ness can't get the grab for a KO or follow ups. Sonic can also rack up damage pretty well, while Ness can't do so too well this MU. Ness only gets a few hits in at a time, but struggles with KOing. This (1:56 - 2:03) is probably a good of a string Ness will get. Like once in the whole match. :p

Regarding stages, I always like Delfino as a CP but I don't like T&C. I think Castle Siege is a decent choice for Ness as well since the first form doesn't give Sonic much room for Spin Dash shenanigans or to run around so it might be easier for Ness to "catch" him there and the ceiling is fairly high so Uair/U-Smash KOs are a bit later there (but Ness has to watch out for the walk-offs). Any other is a matter of personal preference, I know I'd ban Duck Hunt vs Sonic tho. XD

==

Honestly it could just be personal bias since Sonic pretty much counters my playstyle (i.e. personal issues but also MU issues)... But I've always found Sonic so stressful. I do think I had some things going against Kels (best Sonic in my region :p) so it's probably not THAT one-sided, but I'm willing to say this MU is somewhere around 65:35 Sonic's favor. I find Ness has to play REALLY on point and the margin of error is quite unforgiving for him to win since Sonic abuses Ness' lackluster neutral and recovery easily. x.x
 
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jaimex2

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:4sonic: vs :4ness:

Be patient, you cant rush Ness down.
Spring out of PK fire to avoid the bat/grabs
Expect Ness to Jump and Nair out of shield.
Ness will be looking for the back throw once youre at high %
Aim the spring behind Ness while he does PK Thunder recovery, spinshot/SCJ gets you out there quickly enough for the drop.
 
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Project SonicSpeed

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Do you guys think it's a good idea to put the MU discussion stuff on hold once Ness and Ryu are done? I mean with the new shield stun mechanics and whatnot it may change the way we play Smash 4 and probably a lot of our MUs as well. We might even have to redo most of them so it might be best to just chill from the MU related stuff.
 

Camalange

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Do you guys think it's a good idea to put the MU discussion stuff on hold once Ness and Ryu are done? I mean with the new shield stun mechanics and whatnot it may change the way we play Smash 4 and probably a lot of our MUs as well. We might even have to redo most of them so it might be best to just chill from the MU related stuff.
I believe we should keep moving forward.

These sort of things are inevitable, and dynamics will change over time. Even without patches, it's possible for new discoveries to be made in match-ups. It's most beneficial to just keep discussing, revisiting, and playing them over time naturally and continue learning. This is by no means meant to be definitive.

:093:
 

Rucent

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I believe we should keep moving forward.

These sort of things are inevitable, and dynamics will change over time. Even without patches, it's possible for new discoveries to be made in match-ups. It's most beneficial to just keep discussing, revisiting, and playing them over time naturally and continue learning. This is by no means meant to be definitive.

:093:
Thank you for answering for me. I was thinking the same thing.
 
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On the Ryu MU, I'll agree with Login_Sinker Login_Sinker on the ratio. Ryu can space with his Hadoukens, his kill options are nothing short of awesome, and is a lot like the :4mario: MU. I'd say compared to that match up, Ryu's air mobility is nothing compared to Mario or Sonic's. Sonic can exploit Ryu off stage and gimp him.
Keep in mind that I'm not a Sonic main, but he's my favorite character to play for fun (no, not the mode). :p
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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We can. I plan on changing the look of the thread eventually.. Just teach me how to do it.. LOL.
Done the hard work for ya:


:4mario: :4luigi: :4peach: :4bowser: :4yoshi: :rosalina: :4bowserjr: :4wario: :4gaw:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 +1 ?:? ?:? -1 -1 ±0 ?:?
:4dk: :4diddy: :4link: :4zelda: :4sheik: :4ganondorf: :4tlink: :4samus: :4zss:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 ?:? +1 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? -1
:4palutena: :4pit: :4marth: :4myfriends: :4robinm: :4kirby: :4dedede: :4metaknight: :4littlemac:
:4sonic: ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? +1 ?:?
:4fox: :4falco: :4pikachu: :4charizard: :4lucario: :4jigglypuff: :4greninja: :4duckhunt: :4rob:
:4sonic: -1 ?:? ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4ness: :4falcon: :4villager: :4olimar: :4wiifit: :4drmario: :4darkpit: :4lucina: :4shulk:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4pacman: :4megaman: :4sonic: :4mewtwo: :4lucas: :4feroy: :4ryu: :4cloud: :substitute:
:4sonic: ?:? -1 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4miibrawl: :4miigun: :4miisword:
:4sonic: ?:? ?:? ?:?
All you have to do is quote my post, then copy and paste the table to OP :p
 
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:4sonic: vs :4ness:
Sonic should usually win this MU as long as he plays correctly (which is very keep away) use his speed to get away from Ness and punish his approach attempts as Ness in neutral is pretty 1 dimensional say for a few players. Sonic has fair range on moves so you can punish pretty effectively and if Ness recovers low Sonic can just spring above him and gimp him pretty easy. The saving grace for Ness in this match up is his clutch killing power with things such as PKT and side smash from pk fire at mid percents but if Sonic doesn't get caught in pk fires or grabs(which is pretty easy in most cases due to his speed) he should win.
:4sonic: vs :4ryu:
This match up coincidentally is similar to the Ness MU in some ways. Ryu is another character that Sonic completely destroys in the speed department, on top of that, mobility too. Hadouken is not a reliable projectile as it is too slow and very react-able. Focus attack also can't be used as much as a good portion of Sonic's moves are multi hit. However Ryu hits like a truck, kills VERY early, and has good frame data to boot. Sonic wins this MU but not by a lot as Ryu has probably even more of a clutch factor than Ness.
 

Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4rob: and :4sonic: vs:4bowserjr:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)

Thank you! :drflip:
 

miniada

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:4sonic:45:55:4bowserjr: 1 word projectiles. Have fun getting walled out by projectiles. His projectiles stop our spindash approach options. He is heavy and hard to kill so his rage will be scary. He can edgeguard us since we are vulnerable during our recovery.
:4sonic:50:50/45:55:4rob:. Rob can stop our approach with gyro and lasers. He is hard to kill and once again rage will be scary. He can put us on a more definsive side.he has better kill options than us. However we can combo him and punish him to. We have better mobility so it's hard for yo chase us down or try to catch us.
 
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:4sonic: 45:55 :4bowserjr::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:
As someone who played a decent amount of both characters I can say this MU is slightly in the koopa kids' favor their side b either trades or straight up beats spin dash/charge and mecha koopa is hard to deal with as that also stops Sonic's main approach options they also hit pretty hard and have strong but hard to set up killing moves and their weight + rage is kinda annoying in this MU in particular.
:4sonic: 45:55 :4rob:
Sonic is fast, rob not so much however he has some of the best projectiles in the game(generally speaking) and like BJ has some weight and rage even more so with his super good uair and smashes. Sonic can lose rob can too but rob has better tools in the mu but Sonic can still pull through and win.
 

jaimex2

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:4rob: 50:50

Walk, dont run so you can shield the gyro.

His recovery fuel doesn't charge back to 100% as soon as he touches ground, it builds back up slowly.

Grabbing the Gyro kills his neutral and main way of walling us out. Hold on to it. A good use for the gyro is to cover his roll options. Throw it up before going in.

Most Robs like to shoot a gyro at anyone edge guarding them before trying to grab the ledge.

:4larry:60:40
Super predictable MU, just wait for the openings as almost everything he does is unsafe.

Our side B is better as we can cancel it and bait him into using his side B.
Short hop > fair/nair/bair his side B. A good kick to face does 20 dmg.

Like Rob, grab the little robot and hold onto it till you can use it against him.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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('Tis be MegaYoshi's 8th Outfit in Mugen, select-able by holding Start/Taunt and then pressing Button 2/X/B/MK. Fun Fact, it's one of my most picked outfits for MegaYoshi in Mugen, and I've got plenty of his sprites ripped and ready to use throughout my post here. :D)

It's a good thing I've been eye-ing the Social Thread here lately, 'cus that's what allowed me to catch an early wind of this Board's MU Thread turning their attention to Bowser Jr, one of my mains alongside DH (who you guys regularly bop without Customs to the point of at least 2 Threads at the DH boards having folks express their despair over it *Cue references to Nozomu Itoshiki from Sayonara Zetsubou-Sensei*) and Ryu (Awww, I missed that one? I would've at least gone over which of Sonic's moves cleanly beat Ryu's Focus Attack, which he's got plenty of ;) Though Ryu has Up Tilt x?? xx True Shoryuken and Weak/Strong DTilt/UTilt xx Specials....).

*INB4 remembering Alex Valle comparing Sonic to Blanka during Umebura F.A.T.... and personally squee-ing over both that observation and him actually being among the Stream Monsters during that event. X)* Oh, would I LOVE to see Valle pick up Sm4sh, someday....

Match Vid References:
Ghsst - Tolgini (Sonic) Vs. Suishomaru (Bowser Jr.) - Winners Round 1 - Smash 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wF2dOPsb8

Smash2School - Kantrip (Bowser Jr.) vs. Richard (Lucario, Sonic) - SSB4 https://youtu.be/3r3ChkXFKjk?t=1m59s

*NOTE: This is older than the above two posted matches by over 2 months* Anvil Smash #8: H8MD (Palutena, Sonic) vs M19 (Yoshi, Bowser Jr) https://youtu.be/xbNEKLUBZ28?t=9m39s

*NOTE 2: Even older than the above by another month. 1st match only* Come on and Ban #20 - Winner Ro32: Andy_Sauro (Bowser Jr./Wii Fit Trainer) vs Scourge (Sonic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zUwRVAXGGU


Whatever details I end up missing about fighting Jr, we can refer to this for more intel, even though it's written from the lens of King Dedede (And other characters like Charizard & Duck Hunt are linked to in this as well): http://smashboards.com/threads/read...sion-put-on-hold.395045/page-13#post-20188688
As a Duck Hunt main myself, Sonic's among the most dreaded to me IF I don't get to bring Customs, because Sonic's fast enough that he just doesn't have to care about my arsenal in the slightest, aside from Can. Thankfully, I play an aggressive rushdown style (that for this MU, forgoes Gunmen & Clays in favor of Cans, jabs, tilts, grabs, and aerials, IF Customs are off), and the many Sonics I've fought online don't seem as defensive as StaticManny's, whose style of Sonic play I'm actually ok with to the point of actually being a fan of it, since I've seen some pretty "lame" styles from other fighting games[...]
Thankfully, I have my other main :4bowserjr: to handle upclose boxing with Sonic, even withOUT Customs, if my doggy gets bopped. >:p
Welp, here I am, finally ready to put my above claim to the test.


:4ludwig:
At the start of the battle, the pressure's on Sonic to get in on Jr, so as to try to eke out a stock lead or even merely a percent lead before running off, since Jr will be content with throwing out Mechas & Cannonballs while you're away from him when Jr's got the stock/percent lead. As noted by miniada and The Revolutionary Cafe, Mechakoopas and Cannonballs can put a dent in blind/reckless Spin Dash approaches towards him, since neither are as fragile as DH's whole arsenal. If Sonic gets past those, Jr's got a 4-frame Jab, his Dash Attack & FTilt, & especially his 4-frame DTilt to clank with head-on-ground Spin Dashes, which CAN lead to frame traps in favor of Jr if you're not careful. In the air, Jr's got NAir & FAir to confront Spin Dashes with as well.

In terms of A button attack range, Jr beats Sonic, especially in the air, which is why I often refer to Jr as the Disjointed Prince of Juggles (Shoutouts to Pikazz for the Disjointed part). Speaking of Juggles, as the opening stock of the Tolgini VS Suishomaru match shows, along with the other match vid references, Jr's Side B Rams xx Jump Canceled Aerials are a key component of his lengthy & powerful Juggles, which Mechas can help out with, and said Ram can even lead into the "Scoops Haagan-Daaz" that is Up B --> A (Hammer) at around 85-100-ish%. The damage output he gets from landing Side B Rams & following up Mechas can compete with your Spin Dash juggle payoffs.

As miniada & The Revolutionary Cafe also noted, Jr's among the heavier characters out of everyone (around Charizard's weight, I believe), which is great for surviving & holding onto rage, and that's great for Sonic, who can juggle him easily with defaults only (Jr gains Side 3 & either Up 2 or Up 3 as options for escaping juggles with when Customs are on).

*Upon seeing The Revolutionary Cafe claim that Jr's Side 1 either trades or even beats Spin Dash/Charge*

Wait, Jr's Side 1 can handle challenging Sonic's Spin Dashes & Charges head-on? Maybe Jr won't need Side 3 here as much as he would against Yoshi or ZSS or Sheik, even though he is easily juggled by Sonic, who can mash out Spring(s) to escape some of Jr's juggles. I would've mentioned FAir or UAir or even NAir as options, but since Jr is the Disjointed Prince of Juggles, I would not put too much trust in those moves to actually help you escape his juggles. Perhaps Jr will opt for Up 2 or even Up 3 instead for breaking out of juggles instead of Side 3, given how mighty Jr's Side 1 seems to be here?


:4sonic:
As folks over at the Jr Boards have noted before (Forgot where exactly....), once you get the stock or even simply the percent lead, the pressure to approach falls on Jr, since even with our Side B Jump Cancels, you can outrun us (not as much as you can against others, though). Some stages, like Castle Siege (walk-off room), Delfino, and thee Duck Hunt stage, provide ample room for this. While Jr gains speed with Customs (3322 or 3332 to be specific, as well as 3122 or 3132), so does Sonic (3223 or 3323, to be specific). 'Course, to actually rack up damage, aside from Spring(s), you'll actually have to go back in & contest with Jr's A buttons, Side B Rams, and Mechas, though you do have the speed to reach an opening, land your hits, and then get back out of there if necessary.

To deal as much damage & knockback per hit as possible, make like a sniper and go for headshots, since he takes more damage & knockback there than he does on the Car. To help you out with that, if you use attacks that hit both regions at once, the squishy head takes precedence in regards to how much damage & knockback you'll deal. Hammer Spin Dash is REALLY good for this, due to its overheading arc, which also grants him a way past default Mechas (a switch to either Impatient or Big Mechas might be warranted, due to HSD). Its payoffs are also greater than what default Spin Dash offers. I'm not sure if it exceeds Burning Spin Dash's payoffs, but since it got a nerf some time ago, I think it actually does.

In terms of general attack speed, you can compete with Jr's A buttons, for your Jab is a 3-framer, your Tilts & Aerials are generally as fast as Jr's Tilts (your aerials can outspeed his if close enough, which is why mashing UAir or NAir with Jr isn't really a thing, per se), and your Spin Dash has less start up than Jr's Side B (even if he short hops before using Side B!). As jaimex2 noted, you have more mobility options with your Spin Dashes/Charges than Jr does with his Side B (even with Jump Cancels!), since you can abort them with shield, delay their ignition, & even jump around before firing them off. This will make it easier to challenge Jr's Side B, since as noted above, Short Hop --> FAir/NAir/BAir/Spring/HSD becomes quicker to do upon reading the Side 1, especially if Jr doesn't Jump Cancel out of it quickly enough.

Your grab game is significantly better than Jr's, since not only do you get better payoffs from grabs as a whole than Jr (ex. Up Throw --> Up 1 --> UAir), but your grab starts up faster than Jr's, plus your run-up grab in incredibly potent.

Your Spring(s) will scare Jrs from recovering low (Soft hits are the bane of Jrs who mash the Shield button in hopes of bringing back the Car post Up 1/2), so they'll likely want to recover high with Side B Jump Cancels into Aerials & Up 1/2s, which gives him more options for dealing with Spring edgeguards than some other characters. Jr's Up 3 MIGHT let him try to recover low against your Springs, since it propels him upwards quicker than the other 2 Up B moves, plus he keeps his Car on the way up, letting him survive long enough to at least use Up 3 one more time.


I do want to point out that unlike most other grab-able items, Mechakoopas WILL explode in your hands if you hold on to them for too long, which can be lethal if the explosion happens off-stage and you don't tech the possible stage spike.


Custom Loadouts:

:4iggy: will likely run 33xx or 31xx or even 13xx or 11xx builds, though considering Air Cannon's reduction in end lag this patch, Neutral 3 is looking to be the #1 Neutral B of choice here for Jr. I personally would run either 3132 or 3332, as shockingly bad as Up 3 seems to be normally, but against Sonic's Up 2 specifically, it's a more appealing option than both Up 1 & Up 2, because while Jr's Up 2 can armor through the 1st Spring, it's the 2nd Spring that will likely catch Jr, since the super armor on Jr's Up 2 will be gone by the time the 2nd Spring falls down on him.
It is because of Sonic's Up 2 during the edgeguarding situation that I'm considering Up 3, since the Car sharply rises before Jr actually ejects from it, letting Jr gain altitude without losing the Car from soft hits. Said sharp rise also nets Jr another juggle escape option besides Side 3, which loses to grabs (which Sonic's high speed is REALLY good at sneaking in).

Sonic's Hammer Spin Dash alone will probably warrant a change in Mechakoopas, due to its overhead arc giving Sonic a fantastic option for sharking platforms, dodging default Mechakoopas (much like ZSS's Down Specials), and sniping the squishy head. Of the 2 Mechas, Impatient's the one I'm considering, since it's the fastest of the 3 Mechas, its overhead arc can meet with HSD's arc (and Double Spring's lower height per Spring use), and grabbing it is not only harder to do, but its length of time in your hands is shorter than the other 2 Mechas. Sonic's fast enough to easily steal Big Mechas, so you'll probably not see it used against you.


:4wendy: will likely want 33x2 for Lylat Cruise and 32xx for Delfino, Castle Siege, or Smashville.


:4sonic: will likely run x213 or x223 or x313 or x323. I'd personally run 3223 or 1223.



Stage Picks: You'll often attempt to KO off the top with your own brand of UAir Sharking post-Springs, as well as USmash (KO power was nerfed...), making low ceiling stages like Delfino, Halberd, Dream Land 64, and even Town & City appealing.

Castle Siege, Delfino, and even Smashville only really become concerns if Customs are on and Jr's packing Neutral 3 (mimics Custom DK's Neutral 3, Storm Punch) & Side 2, Koopa Drift (mimics Charizard's Side 3, Dragon Rush), which grants him walk-off cheese KOs (In Smashville's case, when the 1 platform is close to a Blast Zone).

Without Customs, Castle Siege is a fine choice to send Jr, since Mechakoopas will walk into the Blast Zones during the walk-off room, & Cannonballs will likely stop upon hitting the statues (unless it's Piercing or Air Cannons, which will continue on, regardless).

Lylat Cruise, again, only becomes a concern if Customs are on and Jr's packing 33x2. Otherwise, feel free to take him there, where Mechakoopas will struggle to stay on the stage, his Side 1 slows down when going uphill, and Cannonballs sometimes get stage-tilted out of activity.

If you wind up at FD/Omegas, hopefully it's a Walled Omega, where not only will you be able to wall-jump (which Jr canNOT do), boosting your recovery (especially if you're running Up 2), but Jr won't be able to travel under the stage with Side B JCs. The lack of platforms will make traversing through Mechas and Cannons more difficult, but if Sonic can take the momentum from Jr and stop those projectiles from flowing, he can run around freely on the floor.


Ratios:

WithOUT Customs: :4sonic: 55:45 :4larry: minimum in Sonic's favor if he wins the opening encounter and keeps up the momentum from that opening.
55:45 :4morton:'s favor if he's the one that wins the opening.

WITH Customs: :4sonic: 50:50 :4lemmy: Even for both sides.
I'm tempted to say 55:45 Sonic's favor minimum, due to both HSD & Double Spring adding much mobility, safety, and even punishing power for Sonic.


I myself don't really play as ROB very often, so I'm not sure what to say there. Maybe later I'll come back to him??
 

Login_Sinker

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:4sonic: 40:60 :4rob:

ROB has very strong zoning options, which is quite effective against a character like Sonic. With our speed, it's far from impossible to get in, but only when the opportunity presents itself. I think it is slightly in ROB's favor due to how easily he controls the pace of the match, and how much less he has to commit to the things he does against us in comparison to vice versa.

:4sonic: 60:40 :4bowserjr:

Bowser Jr. doesn't have much going for him here. There's the mecha koopa, but that isn't too tough to deal with. Outside of that, Sonic can just run around and bait stuff out. Bowser Jr. is too slow to keep up, and most of his kit is easily punishable by us. The one area where we struggle in particular is killing him, but that doesn't really matter if you can avoid getting hit in the first place.
 
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2-DJeff

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Done the hard work for ya:


:4mario: :4luigi: :4peach: :4bowser: :4yoshi: :rosalina: :4bowserjr: :4wario: :4gaw:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 +1 ?:? ?:? -1 -1 ±0 ?:?
:4dk: :4diddy: :4link: :4zelda: :4sheik: :4ganondorf: :4tlink: :4samus: :4zss:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 ?:? +1 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? -1
:4palutena: :4pit: :4marth: :4myfriends: :4robinm: :4kirby: :4dedede: :4metaknight: :4littlemac:
:4sonic: ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? +1 ?:?
:4fox: :4falco: :4pikachu: :4charizard: :4lucario: :4jigglypuff: :4greninja: :4duckhunt: :4rob:
:4sonic: -1 ?:? ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4ness: :4falcon: :4villager: :4olimar: :4wiifit: :4drmario: :4darkpit: :4lucina: :4shulk:
:4sonic: ?:? ±0 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4pacman: :4megaman: :4sonic: :4mewtwo: :4lucas: :4feroy: :4ryu: :substitute:
:4sonic: ?:? -1 ±0 ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:? ?:?
:4miibrawl: :4miigun: :4miisword:
:4sonic: ?:? ?:? ?:?
All you have to do is quote my post, then copy and paste the table to OP :p
just an opinion but i think we beat rosa and we lose too mk. just an opinion is all and i also feel that we go even with rob and also lose to bj
 
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CyberHyperPhoenix

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just an opinion but i think we beat rosa and we lose too mk. just an opinion is all and i also feel that we go even with rob and also lose to bj
Hey man, don't tell me that, you should probably tell the entire thread that.

I just put the values in the table cause they were already there.

Also you should probably backup what you say with some sort of evidence as to why.
 
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Rucent

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Hey man, don't tell me that, you should probably tell the entire thread that.

I just put the values in the table cause they were already there.

Also you should probably backup what you say with some sort of evidence as to why.
I do want to hear why you think Rosa loses, MK wins BJ wins, and Rob is even. 2-DJeff 2-DJeff .
 

2-DJeff

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Ugh haha alright ill try to write something up. it's been awhile since 2012 brawl since ive wrote up some mu stuff. with bowser jr. we lose because literally everything we have except preemptive bairs and usmashs loses to cart. our fair and other attacks so beat it yes but thats is to say if the bj doesnt react to our option. Bj can jump bait out our attack side be again tap us up with his side b, up b and hammer us. and that combo alone if the bj does it right kills us pretty early. He also have his koopa toys that beats out spin dash. correct me if im wrong doesnt his fsmash beat our spin dash too? Their arent alot of fsmashes that can do that. the only other one i can think of is falcon(sometimes) and megamans. It also has a very low cool down and hit's pretty hard for a fsmash with low cd. i honestly feel that is sonic does not have the lead he loses. None of our moves beats dair. hmmm im trying to think what else. Oh yes bj is gimpable if the bj player does not know how to recover with his side b's properly where he wont get baired/springed. It's kind of like fighting an ike in that sense. not to mention his cart has super armor on the bottom of his side be too so he beats us clean on the ground. Idk i just personally find it extreamly hard mu for me with sonic but when i switch characters it's easy. I also live near a lot of bj such as toolbag and bbgfunk


with mk it's not too much in his favor but his spacing and nado gives sonics spin dash a problem. sonic has a hard time landing vs him due to mks speed. Kind of like fighting fox. if anyone ever see why sonic players have a hard time fighting fox is because hes fast enough to punish our landings. mk does the same thing but it leads in more of a chance of dying due to up b. some adv sonic does have vs mk is that we can also punish his landing(but not 0 to death him). we can beat his nado if not already in spin dash unless we do the hop on side b that wins too. and i feel that we have a better neutral than him too. Like i said i dont feel it's a hard counter or anything but getting 0 to death just because im trying to land from playing the neutral off a short hop, spin dash on shield etc. is pretty silly. Lol now that i think of it, it's more like fighting zss lol but with ****tier range.

rosa the reason why i think we beat her is because it is very easy to kill luma. we almost do the same thing falcon does to luma with the whole jab sequence. If short hop bair connects to rosa just do a slight turn around 3 hit jab to luma follow where luma lands and do it again until shes dead. rosa cannot do anything about that if she gets hit. people say "oh i cant get in on rosa because of rosa jab, dtilt, etc." well you have a number of ways. approaching bair is one. will catch her during jabs or will go over her head when shes dtilting (which isnt a bad thing) because it will put you up close to her with her back to you ready for you to assault her with a mix up with jab if you think shes gonna turn around and grab you, or side b if you think shes gonna spot dodge, Fsmash if you think shes gonna jab, grab if you think shes gonna roll etc. yeah it's rock paper sissors but ultimately you have the advantage because you're making her guess first and you can keep recreating the situation. Another way to get in that is slept on a lot is just jumping over them while in spin dash. dont collide with them. just jump over, read their defense option and punish. that simple. Homing attack is also slept on too. Yeah it is punishable on block vs some characters but you can make the guess where youre gonna land. But it will hit if the rosa is just tossing out random normals. I believe even Dabuz thinks it's a good move vs rosa. Fthrow rosa to kill luma about quarter stage because the kick will launch her and if it doesn't kill luma. just run up and jab her off. We all know how one sided it is when rosa doesn't have luma. Even if you have like 150% to rosa 50% you should still try to kill luma. Just because how bad sonic wrecks her without luma.

alright so rob. I have a much vs 8bort on youtube. He has tons of sonic practice. and ive only fought a rob once before him and me and the sonic players that he plays against do have different play styles with mine being more rush down. I say at least for right now because rob is very slow and is very easy to juggle. Before you guys go " omg his nair is so good vs us" Dont get me wrong it is good vs us. but our shield grab is a thing. also dash attack( if timed correctly) and invincible side b(if timed correctly). taking robs top and forcing him to come in a bit more then normal. And his best tool to come in with is his nair. Spin dash to thrown top to air attack does a ton of dmg to rob like side b to thrown top to fair does like 25% and i believe if you can get nair if the rob di's into you, you will get even more. His fair is great vs you but if you have the lead you can box him out and make him do risky things and punish. Our pressure is a problem for him when he has no top. I honestly think rob needs to just out play you to win but im going to say it's even until i play it a bit more.
I also forgot to include that our down b goes under a launched top

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFQVB2vWEc

LIKE I SAID BEFORE THESE ARE JUST OPINION BASED OFF WHAT I'VE PLAYED A CONSTANT OF.
 
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Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4pit::4darkpit: and :4sonic: vs:4tlink:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.
Thank you! :drflip:
 

Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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As a Pit main, I hate the sonic vs. Pit matchup. In theory, it doesn't seem that bad, since arrows beat out side/down-b. But I can never space out a sonic player, f-tilt is too laggy, and f-air only works if I'm predicting the sonic with side-b and jump over me. In my eyes, (I don't know much about sonic, all I know is that every time I find one, I get my @ss kicked) Sonic is a character that forces most opponents to play defensively, and since Pit's has a lot of trouble spacing out sonic, it leaves Pit in an awkward spot where you have to play offensively, which doesn't work most of the time. Even Earth (one of the best Japanese players) says that sonic is Pit's worst matchup
 

Attila_

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This mu is pretty tough for Pit. None of his grounded moves or specials clank with spin dash, and his poor speed makes punishing shielded spin dashes really tough. Pit more or less has to guess perfectly and use aerials to stop Sonic's approach; all of pit's aerials have 20 or more frames landing lag, so if he guessed wrong, punishing is real easy.

If say 70:30 Sonic's favor, but it might be even worse than that.
 
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