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Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

TheReflexWonder

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I'm not bad at catching flights; I'm usually there a couple hours earlier! I just didn't know why that was necessary until immediately before EVO. :<

Maybe I'm bad at catching Sonic, but I've been trying -really- hard.
 
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Camalange

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I'm not bad at catching flights; I'm usually there a couple hours earlier! I just didn't know why that was necessary until immediately before EVO. :<
:/

Maybe some other time, dude. That was a huge bummer.
Maybe I'm bad at catching Sonic, but I've been trying -really- hard.
Well, you seem very adamant about your position, which is why I would love the experience.

I admittedly don't get much good Wario practice (I'm sure that's not much of a surprise) so I don't want to voice anything that strongly one way or the other.

I definitely want to see your points in action.

:093:
 

T4ylor

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I don't main Wario, but I just wanted to point out that Abadango, perhaps the best Wario, swapped to his pocket RosaLuma for all of the Sonic match ups at Evo. He even uses Wario in the Sheik match up, which is definitely in Sheik's favor, so I'd think he would've stuck with Wario if he had any confidence that he could win this match up, but since he didn't...
 

Camalange

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I don't main Wario, but I just wanted to point out that Abadango, perhaps the best Wario, swapped to his pocket RosaLuma for all of the Sonic match ups at Evo. He even uses Wario in the Sheik match up, which is definitely in Sheik's favor, so I'd think he would've stuck with Wario if he had any confidence that he could win this match up, but since he didn't...
I thought about that as well, but Japan is also insane and thinks Sonic is the second best character in the game, so their perceptions of our character are rather warped though.

:093:
 

Damandatwin

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I've seen a lot Sonic players swear up and down that it is in Wario's favour due to mostly bite (and the bike). But I'm starting to get the impression that that's just because they are bad and keep trying to spindash into him.

I personally haven't had too much trouble with Wario, but then again I've only fought FG Warios.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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You can beat the Bike by sticking out most any lingering hitbox in advance; do a shorthop F-Air and you'll beat it every time, iirc.

Neutral-B is a good tool but Sonic's speed allows him to punish whiffed Chomps better than most characters, and Sonic's Forward-B still beats it if you're relatively close (other pokes, too, but that's probably the easiest). I'd tell you to just wait and punish.
 
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shoff

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I have fought great Sonics that dont abuse spindash options as many would assume and they still have trouble with bite and bike. A smart Wario would ride the bike so that a low hop aerial smacking him off wouldnt be too much of an issue. The bike is a deterrent and approach tool that just so happens to be a great kill option that demands respect. Basically, Sonic is forced to play differently in this matchup, that alone says something about who has the advantage here. Wario eliminates a few of Sonic's biggest options at certain ranges. Of course Sonic has moves that can beat out bite and bike, every character does, but he has to respect these options much more than others. Sonic's speed alone makes him easy bite bait. Sonic has to be more careful with pivot grab tricks, running grabs (even though grabs beat bite, sonic usually losses due to his speed), etc. And is forced to play a more aerial or walking game to gain access to tilts and other moves that can beat bike and bite, which slows down the matchup and further helps Wario. A few of the good Sonic's tend to use Sonic's homing attack more in this matchup as it will probably never lose to Wario's bite unless recovering from under the stage, and even then I believe it trades, not sure. Either way, that is a very small chance, so a great option to use against Wario, as it can be pretty safe at times, and it kills. I still think this is even or slightly in Wario's favor.
As far as abadango playing this match, play styles play a role in this fight as well, maybe he prefers to be more aggressive instead of reactive. He may have been scarred by one in the past, who knows? Or the timeout option vs Sonic is a threat he doesnt want to deal with, as it is a real threat. This is mainly due to damage output.
 

TheReflexWonder

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People are afraid of the Bike when you can really just swing at Wario with relative impunity. It is generally not a good approach option, especially so against Sonic.
 

PokÉmblem

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I main wario and I read some of this on the wario matchup thread and I feel the matchup is either 50-50 or 55-45 in wario's favor. Wario and sonic are both campy but wario gets his waft and wario can neutral b sonic with ease. If you carefully approach wario with sonic and try to get a lot of damage from his mistakes and preferably play a less campy sonic in this matchup it's cut about even. Wario's bike also can't be spammed too much because f-smash and neutral b. Hope this helps since I secondary sonic and main wario.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Unsubscribing; people are just repeatedly making the same incorrect assumptions about the matchup. :(
 

Adrian Marin

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Realistically, Chomp should be able to deal with Sonic; however, I know for a fact that every TOP and HIGH level Sonic player will not fall for bite shenanigans. The bite is great and all, but simply holding B is too unsafe and will only work against Sonic players that have no knowledge about the matchup. The only thing Wario has going for him is his waft, as Wario can deal with an aggressive Sonic somewhat well; consequently, Sonic will be encouraged to camp, which allows Wario to charge his waft with less vulnerability.
 
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cstonic

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You can beat the Bike by sticking out most any lingering hitbox in advance; do a shorthop F-Air and you'll beat it every time, iirc.

Neutral-B is a good tool but Sonic's speed allows him to punish whiffed Chomps better than most characters, and Sonic's Forward-B still beats it if you're relatively close (other pokes, too, but that's probably the easiest). I'd tell you to just wait and punish.
These are a lot of things I noticed in the match up as well.
I think Sonic has the advantage but I'm not sure by how much.
 

Axel311

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I think this one is slightly in Sonic's favor as well. But while Reflex makes good points I don't think the matchup is THAT bad. Sonic does have to do the approaching here right? The threat of waft and the bike assure that. Sonic gets punished for camping and stalling because that allows fart to charge. If Sonic is the one forced to approach in neutral, I don't see how this can be overwhelmingly in Sonic's favor when Wario's camping game is so strong.

Sonic is hard to fart on but his down B and smashes have lag that's punishable and there's always the nair to waft combo. Also Sonic's recovery is vertical and can be farted on off stage.

I agree with Reflex with bite. It's a big misconception that mashing bite completely shuts down spindash. Sonic players can work around it. If I bite too quickly Sonic can delay his spindash attack and punish bite's endlag. Also you can angle spindash to hit on the top of wario's head to get around the bite. But it's not like Wario HAS to use bite every time Sonic spindashes. Wario can shield it just like everyone else, and only bite as a mixup.

However bite still well counters 2 of sonic's biggest approach options. Run up and grab and spin dash on the ground. That is a pain when Sonic is forced to approach. He can get around it, but it's a pain. Sonic can combo Wario well with spindash ---> upairs.

Sonic can shorthop fair Wario off bike easily like Reflex said with a lingering hitbox, but that just means Wario has to be aware of his bike spacing and not use bike when Sonic has an opportunity to do that.

And about the Abadango comments. Just because he went Rosa doesn't mean he thinks the matchup is awful. He probably just recognizes that Rosa has an excellent matchup to Sonic. Doesn't mean he thinks Wario-Sonic is an awful matchup. He probably just realizes that Rosa's matchup to Sonic is better than Wario's which everyone would probably agree with.

So yeah I agree with Reflex that Sonic outranges us in the air and can poke more safely. But bite does make things frustrating and shuts down some of Sonic's best options still even though it's effect is exaggerated by many players. And Sonic is the one forced to approach in neutral, that means a lot. So all things considered,

:4sonic:55 :45:4wario: seems about right. I feel it's slightly in Sonic's favor but it could be anywhere from 50:50 to 60:40 Sonic. Definitely not an unwinnable matchup for Wario. I feel like the more creative player wins here.
 
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Spinosaurus

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And about the Abadango comments. Just because he went Rosa doesn't mean he thinks the matchup is awful. He probably just recognizes that Rosa has an excellent matchup to Sonic. Doesn't mean he thinks Wario-Sonic is an awful matchup. He probably just realizes that Rosa's matchup to Sonic is better than Wario's which everyone would probably agree with.
He said he thinks the MU is even on reddit. His reasoning is "bite". x_x

Who's a notable Japanese Sonic?
 
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The only issue is if Wario chooses to abuse bite to cover spin attack approaches if sonic starts to bait out Bite he can easily stuff bite with an upwards angled Fsmash or homing attack him in a situation where they would have thought sonic would have used his spin attacks. So while Abadango may think it's even I can agree with some other people in that sonic wins the MU although only slightly, thanks to the factor that Bite can still shut our approach down if done properly and early waft KOs are something to be wary off especially if used as a punish for our landing. (seen way too many times people jump > up-b > dair and land into a wario only to get wafted and die at like 50%)
 

Rucent

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Time to discuss :4sonic: vs :4zelda: and :4sonic: vs:4megaman:!

Click below to vote for the next two characters!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-16-17-voting-open.414123/

In order to keep discussions in the Thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this.
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.

Thank you! :)
 
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Diamond Octobot

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I can't say anything about :4zelda: since I don't use her, soooo...

:4megaman:
Sonic is fast and can get inside and outside of our midrange pretty easily, but Leaf Shield and our Mega Buster can stop any kind of Spindash in its track... I would need to play against more Sonics to say more about the MU, but these are important things to note.
 
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JigglyZelda003

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:4zelda:

Sonic is really annoying to combat as Zelda. He runs circles around her and gets in her face too fast for her to react to with much since most of her moveset is slow. This makes it where many times all Zelda can do is try to predict what Sonic is going to do so she can react accordingly otherwise she's gonna struggle.

Dtilt and Nayrus can both stop spin dash hits as well as Sonics dash attack and grab. having these moves out in time Zelda can keep Sonic from running on top of her. I know the old phantom stopped Sonics dash attack so the new one might be viable sometimes as a grounded wall out option now.

offstage Zelda can gimp Sonic easier I he's kind of low cause then Dair and Nair are better usable to keeping Sonic from coming back. Unlike some characters fub dair doesn't exactly end Sonics stock so Zelda has to sweet spot it to make sure he's not coming back.

I'm not sure if her dair can beat Sonics Uair but I think it can if he's close enough. Regardless though Zelda is still easy to juggle if Sonic lands a hit or grab on her to drag her in the air. And there isn't much she can do other than try to escape or risk a Nair/kick/nayrus out which is a risk. sonic can also cover Zeldas landing pretty well with running Usmash cause she's tall and all her aerials lag making being tossed up and chased at high percents scary.

While I've never been gimped by Sonic I have been spring harassed offstage trying to recover that made recovery annoying. But other than that I've usually been allowed to get back to the ledge if I can bypass the spring so idk if Sonic has more offstage pressure games.

Zelda kills better than Sonic which helps if Zelda can again a decent lead and only has to fix for a finished but if both parties are around kill percents its hard on Zelda cause her kill moves leave her far more exposed than Sonic sans Usmash.

4:6 :4sonic: Or +1 however you guys rate it. Zelda can kill but she's hard pressed to keep Sonic from dragging her across the stage while trying to hit him. Idk about custom Sonic but I've seen hammer spin dash in video so I assume things just get worse for Zelda cause her customs are ass lol
 

ravemaster47

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Mega vs sonic is an annoying fight. I've only played a handful of good sonics and I can say that he just annoys the heck out of me. As said before, megabuster and leaf shield can stop spin dash approaches, but sonics Dtilt comes out really fast. I can't give an exact matchup ratio because as I said, I have only played a handful of good sonics. But I'd probably give it in sonics favor just based on how I feel the matchup is to me.
 

CopShowGuy

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The few Sonics that I've faced were stopped pretty easily. As mentioned, Leaf Shield and, more importantly, PELLETS stop Sonic's grounded approach. It feels like Sonic wants Mega Man above him for most of the match so he can punish landings. Still I'd say that MU is in Mega Man's favor just because he's so restricting for Sonic.
 

Zylach

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Zelda doesn't like facing Sonic ever. Sonic just runs circles around her and her great OoS options don't do a whole lot because I believe the fastest one we have is frame 11 elevator and Sonic will already be past her by the time that comes out. Zelda is easy to juggle but Sonic will be hard pressed to get his patented uthrow>spring>uair on her as she's floaty and can get out of that by Di'ing up and away. That said, dthrow>tech chase usmash will end Zelda's stock fairly early if Zelda does anything but tech roll away. Zelda can stop spin dash with dtilt and Nayru's like JigglyZelda said but are punishable if Zelda throws them out in an anticipatory fashion. Since Sonic is the king of mindgames, this'll happen more often than any Zelda player wants I suspect.

Zelda will be hard pressed to get kills on Sonic since she has to commit so hard to her kill moves and they're fairly slow. If she can get a falling nair on Sonic, that'd probably be her most consistent way to kill him as she can pull him down to the ground and get a guaranteed elevator.

:4zelda:40:60:4sonic:
 

Funkermonster

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:4megaman: 60:40 :4sonic: or 55:45 Mega Man's favor. Lemons stop Sonic's grounded approaches pretty hard and so does Leaf Shield, as mentioned before. Sonic in general has a bad approach game and has mediocre ways of getting around strong zoning, he's got the speed to bypass our lemons but doesn't have any safe approaches to come with it. None of his aerials are safe on block and he lacks a reflector or a projectile of his own to counter-camp with, he has many ways of mixing up his approach (spinshots, instant spindash jump, etc.) but none of said ways are safe and are easy to punish if we know what you're gonna do, you can't play rushown like Sheik or Pikachu and you have to play a heavy bait and punish game. Also, considering how awful your landing options are, I hope you like getting Up Aired everytime you're above us. Our Fsmash can catch your Spring > Dair too. What you do have going for yourselves over us though, are a much better damage output, better kill moves (although you lack kill setups), a hard-to-gimp recovery, superior frame data, and better close range abilities. If you can get in and find oppurtunities for your spindash combos, you'll be racking up twice as much damage as we can in neutral and while our landing options aren't as bad as yours, you still catch us with spindash and combo and juggle for days. Overall though, while Sonic may win the advantage, he resets to neutral a lot, and Mega Man just wins the neutral game and I think its even at worst for us. Don't really see Sonic wnning it at all to be honest.

With customs, I don't think it gets any better for you. I don't believe Sonic gets much of a benefit from any of his customs besides hammer spindash, and none of them make his original problems in the MU go away. Meanwhile, we get a powerful anti-air an combo potent projectile in Danger Wrap that can threaten your landings even more and give us a better kill option, as well as Tornado Hold as an out of shield option that combos into an aerial and stops you from recovering low, albeit at the cost of a Marth-tier recovery.
 
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KarmaCastle

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Aye, like the two previous Zelda players, getting kills and reacting to Sanic is a nightmare due to his speed. Unless she gets a hard read on the Sonic, there's never an opportunity to KO him. Patience in the matchup for the Sonic player is what counts. Zelda can only react to you, and as such the only "guaranteed" punish we can get is a nayru's love or dtilt into a charge. So avoid spamming it on the ground straight up and it should be easy pickings.

Because of her defensive style she can be hard for Sonic to get his hands on though, so going for a KO can be difficult. Look to use the charge into up air combo when you can, as trying to Smash the Zelda player will give them an opportunity to stack on some damage or even get a cheesy elevator kill pre-50%.

BEWARE A 100%+ RAGE ZELDA.

4:6 as well for me.
 

Drarky

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:4megaman: Lemon wall alert.

So, the company wars, the battle for the title of the blue mascot, how does it goes overall? Pretty even-ish, but with the Bomber getting some goodies over the Spinner.

The first thing to note here is that Mega is unique in the overall fighting style agaisn't Sonic because we do NOT have to guess as badly as others characters to catch Sonic into his spindash, lemons and disjointeds are two things we have that cover his main approaches, Air Shooter covering some "mindgames" trying to jump over our lemons in the bait.

But! Not everything is bright and easy for the Blue robot, if Sonic gets in, you'll eat some big punish because of his combo options, but do not be too afraid, since when it comes to the killing part, it's probably the part where everything gets bright for Mega.

Sonic does NOT have a reliable kill option agaisn't Mega, at all. We do not EVER have to be in the range of his FSmash, his USmash is slow, and the rest of his options are pretty obvious overall. While we have some pretty good momemtum breaker inputs (USmash, Air Shooter, Slash Claw, etc). But if the Mega gets caught and dies first, the battle'll become an uphill fight, VERY difficult to come back from, be worried about that.

It's actually how I would think a MM/Sonic fight would be, Mega Man has the sturdyness and with enough time he can beat the outstanding speed of Sonic, but you do NOT want to get confident, since that hedgehog does indeed have the tools to take him out first if not careful.

:4megaman:55:45:4sonic:

Ps: Lylat or Castle Siege are good stage options agaisn't MM, in case you want to CP him.
 

ENKER

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:4megaman: Lemon wall alert.

So, the company wars, the battle for the title of the blue mascot, how does it goes overall? Pretty even-ish, but with the Bomber getting some goodies over the Spinner.

The first thing to note here is that Mega is unique in the overall fighting style agaisn't Sonic because we do NOT have to guess as badly as others characters to catch Sonic into his spindash, lemons and disjointeds are two things we have that cover his main approaches, Air Shooter covering some "mindgames" trying to jump over our lemons in the bait.

But! Not everything is bright and easy for the Blue robot, if Sonic gets in, you'll eat some big punish because of his combo options, but do not be too afraid, since when it comes to the killing part, it's probably the part where everything gets bright for Mega.

Sonic does NOT have a reliable kill option agaisn't Mega, at all. We do not EVER have to be in the range of his FSmash, his USmash is slow, and the rest of his options are pretty obvious overall. While we have some pretty good momemtum breaker inputs (USmash, Air Shooter, Slash Claw, etc). But if the Mega gets caught and dies first, the battle'll become an uphill fight, VERY difficult to come back from, be worried about that.

It's actually how I would think a MM/Sonic fight would be, Mega Man has the sturdyness and with enough time he can beat the outstanding speed of Sonic, but you do NOT want to get confident, since that hedgehog does indeed have the tools to take him out first if not careful.

:4megaman:55:45:4sonic:

Ps: Lylat or Castle Siege are good stage options agaisn't MM, in case you want to CP him.
I love your post in its entirety, except for one word. "Spinner." Sonic is the Blue "Blur" and Mega Man is the Blue Bomber. :) And I totally agree, this is exactly how a battle between the Blue Blue and Blue Bomber goes.

:4megaman:55:45:4sonic: Ditto on what he said.
 
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Login_Sinker

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I agree with the general sentiments so far that the MU is slightly in Mega Man's favor. Probably :4megaman: 55:45 :4sonic: in my opinion. Sonic, like in most match ups, is going to be looking for punish opportunities, which is particularly difficult here since Mega Man has so many ways to keep him out. I feel like both characters can camp each other pretty well. Whoever takes that first stock is going to have a big advantage. Additionally, I played this MU recently and learned a couple things that Sonic can do against Mega Man.

1st: If Mega Man fires 3 lemons with none of them hitting, a charged Spin Dash or Spin Charge can punish the end lag from nearly anywhere on stage. Good to know if you can condition the Mega Man to think you'll dash in right away when you charge a spin.

2nd: With rage, Sonic's U-throw > U-air can kill Mega Man on Halberd as early as 55%. Worth keeping in mind when it comes to counter picks.

All in all, the MU is very far from unwinnable for the Blue Blur, but it requires a lot of focus and patient play. This match up is more prone to go to time than others if both parties are playing safely.
 

Rucent

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Thank you everyone for contributing! :D

:4zelda:
I don't know much about Zelda, but I did remember the shock I had when I was killed at 90% on Omega Palutena's Temple by her Bair. Its been awhile since I've seen a Zelda, so I do want to get some practice agianst her.

:4megaman:
There isn't really much for me to say, since all of you pretty much stated all I had in mind about the match up.

Mega Man's Up Smash is great for punishing our Spin Shot approach, Spin Dash Hop, along with any dairs we do above stage.

Sonic can stick Crash Bomber to Mega Man by running past him or hitting him with homing attack.

Offstage, Sonic can follow Mega Man from above and spring the moment Mega Man Rush Coils.

There can be only one Metal Blade and Crash Bomber at a time. We can catch Metal Blade.
 

JigglyZelda003

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:4zelda: Elevator aside Zelda can generally start killing around 90% on most light weights (guaranteed if she has rage) its just a matter if landing those hits that KO which can be hard to land on Sonic unless he like whiffs Usmash
 

CopShowGuy

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Thank you everyone for contributing! :D
There can be only one Metal Blade and Crash Bomber at a time. We can catch Metal Blade.
Most Mega Man players hope people will hold on to their Metal Blade. It prevents you from using your standard attacks.
 

Funkermonster

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AND, Crash Bomber wants you to try and return it to the sender. It forces a reaction out of you that we can punish:
  • A defensive move
  • Rushdown
  • Ignore it and take the damage
Also, unless we're offstage, grabbing metal blade is a trap that Mega Man will punish you for. Can't even use it against us anyway, we can just destroy it with lemons.
 

Genuine_Angus_B33F

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Sonic vs Zelda is a warm welcome to hell. I don't secondary Yoshi for squat.
Zelda gets pressured by so many of Sonics options it hurts. Spin dash is "safe" because d-tilt and shield grab can't effectively punish as long as spring exists. Sonics moves have high shieldstun and pushback, limiting Zeldas ability to use the ladder and JC UpSmash. It's not fun, and not worth playing imo.

40:60 or 35:65, depending.
 

ZombieBran

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limiting Zeldas ability to use the ladder
Why don't you call it Elevator? Genuinely curious, cause that's what all us other Zelda gorls call it

:4zelda:
Going to agree that Sonic is unfun for Zelda, for a variety of stated reasons. If I can avoid this matchup, I do.

Rage Elevator is scary and can end stocks waaay prematurely, but don't throw out laggy moves on or near our shield and you generally won't lose stocks that early. Of course, we go for YOLO Elevators sometimes if we need the KO quickly.

4:6 for me too, Sonic's favor.
It gets even better for Sonic with customs.
 
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Genuine_Angus_B33F

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Why don't you call it Elevator? Genuinely curious, cause that's what all us other Zelda gorls call it .
Genuinely. Funny.
I call it the ladder because it's a quick climb, but either works.
So this post isn't irrelevant to the convo;

The MU
:4sonic:Things to Know; Spindash does wonders for pressure, because it's tricky for Zelda to punish (watch out for the Ladder, as that has insane kill potential if you get too greedy). Sonic can run circles around Zelda due to poor airspeed and lack of aerial options. Sonic can upthrow combo, and I might be wrong but with a good DI guess Up throw Spring Up Air kills pretty early. Zelda cannot approach Sonic confidently, leaving you to control the pace of the match. Play safe, and don't get predictable.

:4zelda:Things to Know; Not much. Nayru's Love can't beat spin dash unless timed very well, and even then it clashes and he can punish, so you gotta use well timed down tilts and up tilts to catch him. Sonic will run the match, No doubt, so be prepared to have to run away and tack on percent with peekaboo dash attacks, dash grabs and tilts. That's it. Approaching sonic is a losing bet, so just be on your feet and punish mistakes as hard as possible. Good Luck; You'll need it.

60:40, Sonic. That's it.
 

Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4metaknight: and :4sonic: vs:4mario:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:
You can camp out his Monado arts.
Thank you! :drflip:
 

miniada

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:4sonic:55:45:4mario: sonics up b can break out of combos his speed can punish any mistakes mario makes he can spin dash shield cancel fireballs and gimp marios recovery however mario can stop spindash and gimp sonic due due how sonic is one of the most safest charecters in the game mario has a hard time dealing with him
 

Underhill

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:4mario:vs:4sonic:: 55:45 in Sonic's favor slighty. Because Sonic is so fast and safe, its hard for Mario to punish and kill him. Spindash can help Sonic combo Mario, and camping with fireballs is something for Sonic to get through by SH spindash. While Mario can juggle better and can land easier than Sonic, Mario can't beat Sonic up-air when he's above him. Sonic's gimps, ledgeguards, and recovery are better than Mario, even with his cape and fludd on his side. SH n-air, d-air and maybe b-air(if spaced correctly) can stop Sonic's spindash approach and Mario's approaches are better than Sonic's.
 

Login_Sinker

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:4sonic: VS :4mario:

I see this MU as being 50:50, possibly ever so slightly (to the point that it wouldn't change this ratio) in Sonic's favor. I feel like Mario wins the neutral fairly handily. He has fire balls to force an approach and limit movement options, superior frame data all around, has many ways to stop SD, and he wins out hard in close quarters combat. However, Sonic has a better punish game across the board, due to him being so fast as well as his BnB punish (Spin > Aerial) working for a longer time than Mario's crazy throw combos (so Sonic puts out more consistent punish damage overall). Sonic also has a slightly better off stage game due to him being a bit better at gimping and having a better recovery (although his spring gimp won't work on Mario, who can Up B through it). The place where I feel Sonic really shines in this MU though is when he takes the lead. If Sonic takes that first stock, he can camp HARD. Mario can't keep up with him when Sonic is playing keep away. Mario is nowhere near as fast, has small range on his moves, and has no super strong approach options. This is what makes me think it could potentially be slightly in Sonic's favor. He can hold a lead much better than Mario with how effective his run away game is here. On the whole though, I'm calling it even. The stronger player with the greater knowledge of the MU will probably be the one to win.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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To all Sonics out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Sonic. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Sonic match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/415991/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/
 

Myst_R

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:4mario:

I guess his frame data and his fireball make it hard for Sonic to approach and find the good timing to punish. In this matchup, I feel the bait and punish game of Mario is over the Sonic's one notably due to the fireballs.

I've played good Mario and bad Mario, the difference between them was the fact that the good ones can:

- Stop the spins
- Constently bait using their knowledge of the frame data resulting in preventing me to find the timing to punish
- gimp properly or land a set up endind in a Fair Spike

I feel that Mario has the advantage as his game can leave so little windows for Sonic to punish. Plus, his fireballs can force you to get close to him in the way he is willing you to do it. I guess there's no place on the stage where you're safe against a Mario.

However, if they miss their recovery they can be hard punished.
 

Login_Sinker

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:4mario:

I guess his frame data and his fireball make it hard for Sonic to approach and find the good timing to punish. In this matchup, I feel the bait and punish game of Mario is over the Sonic's one notably due to the fireballs.

I've played good Mario and bad Mario, the difference between them was the fact that the good ones can:

- Stop the spins
- Constently bait using their knowledge of the frame data resulting in preventing me to find the timing to punish
- gimp properly or land a set up endind in a Fair Spike

I feel that Mario has the advantage as his game can leave so little windows for Sonic to punish. Plus, his fireballs can force you to get close to him in the way he is willing you to do it. I guess there's no place on the stage where you're safe against a Mario.

However, if they miss their recovery they can be hard punished.
I strongly agree on these sentiments regarding frame data. Along these same lines, however, fireballs aren't quite as strong as you make them out to be. Coincidentally, fireball is one of Mario's few really laggy moves among his lightning quick arsenal. Power shielding them leaves plenty of room to punish. They don't control the neutral nearly as well as Luigi's fireballs or Sheik's needles, especially against someone as fast as Sonic. They still give Mario a notable advantage when it does come to the neutral game, but it's nothing overbearing.
 
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