Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

[Sonic Orochi]

• When shielding Fair, do so until Pikachu "lags in place";
• When shielding Dair, do so until either you're sure they won't fastfall it and get the "stomp" hitbox or after the "stomp" hitbox;
• Use the SD invincibility to go through their projectile;
• If the opponent likes to QA to the stage to recover, try to read it with an USmash;
• When grabbed, DI away (I think);
  • Uthrow and Dthrow are Thunder setups. DIing away should suffice;
  • Fthrow can lead into a jablock if you don't tech/jump/DI badly;
• Don't be too optimistic when trying to punish a whiffed FSmash: expect a spotdodge/roll because their FSmash's recovery is even faster than ours, apparently;
• Learn the Bair duration so you can tech properly afterwards;
• Thunder: when it hits them, the attack delay is shortened. Otherwise it's pretty much a free punish;
  • If the opponent likes to use an offstage Thunder to edgeguard, try to see if it will hit him or not. If positive, you'll probably have plenty of time to DJ/SS (+Spring) under him and punish with an aerial;
• You can try to time a Dair spike when they use side B to recover;
• Stages:
  • Don't go to BF;
  • Lylat, while giving them the QAC shenanigans, is still an okay choice since it screws their recovery pretty badly;
• ...

 

[KyroChao]

My partner and Girlfriend is a pikachu main, so we're going to do some matches and see which character seems to have the advantage. Both of us are very close in skill level so it should be a good Control

 

[NachoThePikachu]

• When shielding Fair, do so until Pikachu "lags in place";
• When shielding Dair, do so until either you're sure they won't fastfall it and get the "stomp" hitbox or after the "stomp" hitbox;
• Use the SD invincibility to go through their projectile;
• If the opponent likes to QA to the stage to recover, try to read it with an USmash;
• When grabbed, DI away (I think);
  • Uthrow and Dthrow are Thunder setups. DIing away should suffice;
  • Fthrow can lead into a jablock if you don't tech/jump/DI badly;
• Don't be too optimistic when trying to punish a whiffed FSmash: expect a spotdodge/roll because their FSmash's recovery is even faster than ours, apparently;
• Learn the Bair duration so you can tech properly afterwards;
• Thunder: when it hits them, the attack delay is shortened. Otherwise it's pretty much a free punish;
  • If the opponent likes to use an offstage Thunder to edgeguard, try to see if it will hit him or not. If positive, you'll probably have plenty of time to DJ/SS (+Spring) under him and punish with an aerial;
• You can try to time a Dair spike when they use side B to recover;
• Stages:
  • Don't go to BF;
  • Lylat, while giving them the QAC shenanigans, is still an okay choice since it screws their recovery pretty badly;
• ...

That's actually a very good list there for fighting against Pikachus. How dare you give away our secrets? X3
But yeah, as Kyro said, we'll play some matches. Should be fair enough, (though he knows all of my tricks so it'll be a little difficult on my end XD) and hopefully I can help out too in terms of vs Pikachu match ups.
Don't tell the other Pikachu mains that i'm affiliating with opposing match ups, hehe

 

[SmashGamer112]

It's time to start Pikachu's discussion! There's actually quite a bit I'd like to say about this matchup, since I play the Electric mouse myself.

For starters, I reconmend stages with little to no platforms, mainly because Pikachu can benefit from them all via Quick Attack Ledge Canceling (QALC for short), thus weakening his edgeguarding and mobility somewhat. QALC allows pikachu to end his Quick Attack animation instantly with no end lag, allowing him to follow up with almost anything. Stages to avoid the most is probably BattleField and Lylat Cruise. No matter what stage, Pikachu can still use QALC, but we can try to minimalize the amount of places he can use it. Pikachu also has Quick Attack Canels (QAC for short), which only work on slopes and on platforms.

Why did I start off with stages and Quick Attack? Because, QA is Pikachu's best special. It allows Pikachu to get around the stage very fast, while having an active hitbox. And with QA Ledge Canceling and QAC, it makes it even better and faster to get from point A to point B, throw a combo, setup, or punish, then get out if need be. This is also Pikachu's recovery move, and it does that job amazingly. Respect this special out of any other move he has, because this single handely allows Pikachu to have so many more options in battle.

Typically, from what I seen of Pikachu *Cough* or ESAM *Cough*, Pikachu should be played rushdown (aggressive). He probably is the best rushdown character in the game. He has amazing combos that start with either a grab, his down tilt, up tilt, or QA. He has a great amount of finishers/KO power, from the almighty Thunder, his Smash Attacks, Dash Attack, Fair & Dair (Off Stage), and Bair (Edge Guarding). And set ups typically are Up Throw, Jab Locks, and QA. Expect seeing a lot of short hops, espicially short hop Fair and Nair.

Let's talk about Thunder real quick. As many of you know, in Smash 4, Pikachu's Thunder now has a Spike (Thunder Cloud). If you get spiked by Thunder, and Pikachu is directly under it, you will get launched very far, and at higher % range, this can kill.

• Pikachu usually sets Thunder up with Up Throw, so when you get Up Throwed, DI instantly to the left or right, and prepare to air dodge if Pikachu tries to follow you for it.
  • If you do get hit by Thunder, but not get spiked, you will be launched upwards, and depending on your percent and where you were, you could lose a stock. Pikachu can get this effect by Up Throwing, jumping, then Thunder at high percents.
• Pikachu can also use Thunder as an edgeguarding tool.
  • Pikachu can jump off stage and B-Reverse Thunder.
  • Pikachu can also jump off the ledge and get under the stage, Thunder, then QA back on stage.
• Pikachu can also use Thunder as a protective wall when coming back stage.

Speaking of edge guarding, Pikachu is the best at doing so. Not only does he have Thunder as an edge guarding tool, his jab on the ledge can also stop players from snapping to it. Down Tilt and Thunder Jolt (Neutral B) also do a great job at this. And with QALC, Pikachu is able to throw out his arieals - and Thunder - on the fly. He can easy Stage Spike using Bair and Dair, and can even use Skull Bash (Side B) for that as well.

Pikachu can also B-Reverse Thunder Jolt. Thunder Jolt can stop our Spin Dash and Spin Charge, Along with his jab.

I personally believe this will be one of Sonic's hardest match ups, and that Pikachu will probably always have an advantage agianst him. But don't worry, He may have Quick Attack, but we have Extreme Speed.

From what you've said...

Pikachu sounds absolutely disgusting.

Luckily there aren't many Pikachu's around but from what I've gathered, I'll need to be really careful.

Just a question though. I've NEVER played a proper Pikachu, (mainly the reason for why I voted for him on the poll) so what's the best mindset to have?

Hit & Run, Defensive,Offensive, etc

 

[NachoThePikachu]

Pikachu is an extremely good pressuring/Retreat character (Offensive/Hit & Run). In order to do good with him, you better be able to stay on your opponent's tail ( and I mean, REALLY stay on them) and get good combos going. With Quick Attack and Thunder Jolt, he's also a good retreating character, good for going in and then moving out in order to start up your next combo. I like to think he's one of the harder characters to master, but once you can play him, he's really flipping amazing~ X3

If that helps any XD

 

[Rucent]

From what you've said...

Pikachu sounds absolutely disgusting.

Luckily there aren't many Pikachu's around but from what I've gathered, I'll need to be really careful.

Just a question though. I've NEVER played a proper Pikachu, (mainly the reason for why I voted for him on the poll) so what's the best mindset to have?

Hit & Run, Defensive,Offensive, etc

Don't put yourself in bad situations. Assume Pikachu can always get to you in the snap of a finger, and be prepared to DI, Punish, etc. I believe that Sonic's mobility is going to help him a lot in this match up.

 

[NachoThePikachu]

Kyro and I have finished a quite a few matches, (best of 3 on each of the legal stages) and he's tallied the results. I don't have them with me, but he will come online soon and post them for you guys. :3
If it's of any significance to you all, I have some input on how things went that I would like to share.
Keaton can read me like a book, so he knows exactly when to punish and all that bis XD
but I noticed that Sonic has a harder time escaping combos against Pikachu when he's caught into them, but is harder to grab and combo in the first place. Pikachu's kill potential in this game has been nullified since last titles, which gives Sonic the upper hand in my personal opinion. (There were points where Kyro would kill me at 70-80% and it literally blew me away. XD ) Where as Pikachu didn't get kills until Sonic was AT LEAST above 100% damage. Kudos to you. @u@
Pikachu and Sonic both have the upper hand when it comes to being able to get around stages (Pikachu's QA and what I saw Kyro do, the Spin Shot)
Sonic's able to punish WAY easier than it is for Pika.
I felt that I had a really hard time dealing with Kyro's Sonic overall, both because he's really good and knows exactly what i'm doing, and because he's probably better than me overall even though sometimes our matches are pretty close. XD
He'll be posting the statistical results in a lil bit.
We saved some replays of the matches (at least one per stage, some we forgot XD) so if anyone would like to be sent those replays for some more analysis, let us know and we'll add your NNIDs + send a few. Kyro has some and I have some, so don't be afraid to ask. ouo

 

[KyroChao]

Of best two of three matches, here are the results for each stage.

Battle Field (Heavily pikachu's favor, caution for sonic players)
Game 1: Sonic
Game 2: Pikachu
Game 3: Sonic

FD/Omega(No omega's played)
Game 1: Sonic
Game 2: Sonic

Halberd:
Game 1: Pikachu
Game 2: Sonic
Game 3: Sonic

Kongo Jungle 64
Game 1: Sonic
Game 2: Pikachu
Game 3: Pikachu

Delfino
Game 1: Pikachu
Game 2: Sonic
Game 3: Pikachu

Smashville
Game 1: Pikachu
Game 2: Sonic
Game 3: Pikachu

Town and City
Game 1: Sonic
Game 2: Pikachu
Game 3: Pikachu

Lylat Cruise
Game 1: Sonic
Game 2: Pikachu
Game 3: Pikachu

Overall I'd say the MU is an even split and comes down to the players skill. If i had to say which character has an advantage, I'd say it'd be 55/45 Sonic. Sonic feels like he has more options and with his speed, he can create room for himself to learn the pikachu's patterns. Reads and speed are key in the match up as well as punishing and DI-ing out of combo's. Overall its a tough match up that comes down to skill

 

[Camalange]

I think the advantage definitely goes to Pikachu.

Not dramatically, but it's in his favor imho. 45:55 / 40:60.

I'll be explaining later, but the only real advantage Sonic has on Pika is a slightly easier time landing KO moves.

 

[Nu~]

Yo, Sonic mains! The Pac-boyz are discussing the sonic matchup. Mind running our way to help us out?

So you don't get lost in the maze, here's a quick link:

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-...read-sonic-re-discussion-spin-dashery.390418/

 

[Thor]

I can't confirm this because I don't have any Sonic players to practice with at all, but I played a Sonic main once, and the only thing I couldn't handle was Spin Dash [I'd shield it and... nothing would happen. I must've been messing up my uairs OoS but I couldn't punish his non-spring attacks after he hit my shield - though I'm told this was me being bad, not Sonic being safe]. I asked for help on the Pikachu boards, and this was something that shocked me [hey look, a pun!]: apparently Quick Attack can go through Spin Dash, so that Quick Attack damages Sonic and Pikachu does not get hit.

I don't know if this is true or not, but if so... heh heh heh.

Also, I believe [test this] Heavy Skull Bash beats all variations of spin dash [if the Spin Dash is mid-charge]. Regular might, but the regular one doesn't hit with the force of a smash attack.

Lylat only screws up Pikachu's recovery if the Pikachu player is bad. Ban this stage against a Pikachu who has been using Quick Attack as anything more than a recovery tool - they'll almost certainly take you there if you don't. Depending on how comfortable you are with spiking with Sonic dair, if that works in Delfino's water without killing Sonic it's a decent CP. Pikachu has reasons for liking it but water cheese is possible and the possibility of free stocks at 30% is hard to say no to [and our only meteor smash can't hit someone in the water with the meteor hitbox]. That said, we each can get bthrow cheese there, so be forewarned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I could write a book on this matchup. But itd be easier for your guys to just watch my stream on thursday

 

[Rucent]

I think the advantage definitely goes to Pikachu.

Not dramatically, but it's in his favor imho. 45:55 / 40:60.

I'll be explaining later, but the only real advantage Sonic has on Pika is a slightly easier time landing KO moves.

I can't wait to hear your words of wisdom, Senpai.

I can't confirm this because I don't have any Sonic players to practice with at all, but I played a Sonic main once, and the only thing I couldn't handle was Spin Dash [I'd shield it and... nothing would happen. I must've been messing up my uairs OoS but I couldn't punish his non-spring attacks after he hit my shield - though I'm told this was me being bad, not Sonic being safe]. I asked for help on the Pikachu boards, and this was something that shocked me [hey look, a pun!]: apparently Quick Attack can go through Spin Dash, so that Quick Attack damages Sonic and Pikachu does not get hit.

I don't know if this is true or not, but if so... heh heh heh.

Also, I believe [test this] Heavy Skull Bash beats all variations of spin dash [if the Spin Dash is mid-charge]. Regular might, but the regular one doesn't hit with the force of a smash attack.

Lylat only screws up Pikachu's recovery if the Pikachu player is bad. Ban this stage against a Pikachu who has been using Quick Attack as anything more than a recovery tool - they'll almost certainly take you there if you don't. Depending on how comfortable you are with spiking with Sonic dair, if that works in Delfino's water without killing Sonic it's a decent CP. Pikachu has reasons for liking it but water cheese is possible and the possibility of free stocks at 30% is hard to say no to [and our only meteor smash can't hit someone in the water with the meteor hitbox]. That said, we each can get bthrow cheese there, so be forewarned.

Quick Attack can go through SD/SC, but not consistantly, from testing, it seems like it happens every now and then. Its more common for Sonic to win or the both of them trading.

As for HSB, I do know it can stop SD/SC.

 

[Camalange]

I agree for the most part with what Rucent and Orochi had to say.

I could write a book on this matchup. But itd be easier for your guys to just watch my stream on thursday

Curious what you would have to say too. Why not do both?

Anyway, I think people are finally realizing that Pikachu is a severely underrated character.

Pika has a lot of moves with very little cooldown. Some of the most ridiculous ones being Fair and Fsmash. Fair is such a safe approach. If done right, it's very safe on block, can hit confirm into more Fairs or other combo extenders, can be SHFF'd, easily weaves, etc. It has a lot going for it. Pikachu's Fsmash, while not being an amazing kill move, is effective, has great range, and more importantly, has insanely little cooldown. If the Pikachu has any brain at all, not even Sonic can punish this move. I was floored by how often running grabs, fully charged Spin Dash, etc. would whiff. You have to play to anticipate or punish what Pikachu does AFTER a Fsmash. Whether they instantly shield, spot dodge, or if they're smart, do a better option, you need to respect it and act accordingly.

In addition, Pikachu's moveset is primarily mult-hit, which was good for us in Brawl because SDI was so powerful. Now, we basically take the brunt of Dsmash, Fair, Bair, etc. To some extent you can get out, but it's not nearly on the same level as Brawl. Not even close. Dsmash is good for catching landings or punishing rolls as it covers a wide range, but if it whiffs, is very easy to punish due to the cooldown and lack of active hitboxes by the end of the animation.

So basically, Pikachu has safe approaches, a projectile to hinder our approach (it's not as good as Fireball tbf but it's better than nothing) and all in all has a moveset that's difficult for anyone new to the match-up to punish at all. Pika isn't Shiek levels of crazy, but with the minimal cooldown and Pika having the fastest fall speed in the game, he is a fast and safe little monster.

Also, let's talk about Pikachu's juggle game. Pika's neutral isn't great (Ftilt and Dtilt are both rare to see and jab is more of an annoying interrupter than anything else) and is probably where we have the most luck, but his Utilt is very good and covers him very quickly from front and behind him, which easily confirms into more Utilts / Uairs /etc. for true combos.

Spring is also not as safe for breaking out of juggles or trying to get away (as if his landing punishes weren't good enough) but Pikachu is one of the few characters who can safely chase us from the air without even moving… Yeah, I'm talking about Thunder. Springing is not nearly as safe as it might be in some match-ups, and Thunder can cheese some super early kills if you're careless.

Thunder doesn't have the same range like it used to, but that doesn't stop it from being good still. The biggest thing especially is the fact that interrupting Pikachu no longer stops the lightning from coming down. This drives me crazy. Pikachu can basically spam Down-B during combo strings if they want and lightning will strike.

Our saving grace is that we can kill earlier because a lot of Pika's kill set-ups are pretty gimmicky. Usmash and Fsmash are both good, but not as scary as say, Fox or Yoshi's Usmash. Thunder kills early from the top, but those won't be happening all the time if you're not letting your guard down. His zoning game is good primarily due to how obnoxious Fair is, but thunderbolt is decently manageable despite it beating out our spins.

Edgeguarding Pika isn't too bad, as QA is rather vulnerable and easy to target, but it can be fast and elusive. QAC, while good for movement, is more annoying than anything and is something to be aware of for how fast (and safe) Pika is in general.

So to wrap it up, I think our strengths lie in that Pikachu has some obnoxious stuff, but not as obnoxious as Sheik, and we have some of the best movement in the game as well to keep up with him (we're just not as fast contrary to popular belief when it comes to actual frames on moves) and we will most likely have an easier time securing the kill.

I don't have extensive match-up experience but I've been dealing with it more, and just from what I've seen and learned about it myself, I do believe Pikachu wins this one, even if it's just slightly.

If we want to talk customs, Heavy Skull Bash comes out ridiculously fast and goes really far for the beginning. Like, this can basically punish anything Sonic does. Seriously. If they whiff though, the path just stops dead in its tracks and it has a lot of cooldown. This move kills eariler the more it's charged and the closer you are to Pika when released. Be weary.

 

[NachoThePikachu]

^ I approve and agree with this greatly.
Fair is a force to be reckoned with, but just so long as you can pull a shield grab, it's pointless. I use fair for approaches all the time, and shield grabs mess me up so bad, hate em. But, I'm telling you anyways. X3

Also as a note, Pikachu's QA and Thunder Jolt (neutral b) have a lot of priority. Spin dashing towards a Pikachu is probably not a wise idea, as throwing out a thunder jolt will stop you in your tracks if you're not charged up enough. I do it a lot against Sonics when I notice I'm being overwhelmed by spin dashes, so be warned.
Most Pikachus won't (and should not XD) use Skull Bash as an offensive move. It may or may not have priority over sonic's spin dash (and I wouldn't know because I haven't tested it myself, but I take your words for it) but you shouldn't have to worry about getting skull bashed into (unless it's the custom heavy bash) during the actual fight. It's mostly used for recovery. ouo
Like stated above, Thunder is also a bit tricky. While it's uses have been altered since previous titles, it IS still possible to get thunder spiked at the top of the stage and die. A quick air-dodge will keep you safe no problem, if you do it right. For kills nowadays I mostly use the thunder combo, (Uthrow into Thunder) and sonic is usually viable for one around the 100-120% zone. If you're in that area, keep away from getting grabbed, and if you do, remember to DI it, because it'll be useless afterwards. Once you're over 130%, you'll fly too high for a thunder combo and you won't have to worry as much. :3
(Just as a note, Pikachu would have made thunder come down even if he was interrupted during the animation in previous titles too, so that hasn't changed. Just figured I'd correct that statement ^u^ )

I personally don't think going after Pika to ledge guard is a good idea, seeing as Pikachu's QA can reach insane heights if done correctly. Pika is also excellent at under-stage recovery and gaining horizontal distance, and is highly unlikely to get stopped on the way back to the stage. Unless you can predict the movement of the QA and interrupt it, I'd say it's too risky... But you can try your luck. :3

I would like to say Pikachu does indeed have an advantage, but only by a little. But once you know all of our tricks, you'll be able to take on a Pika no prob. XD

 

[Camalange]

^ I approve and agree with this greatly.
Fair is a force to be reckoned with, but just so long as you can pull a shield grab, it's pointless. I use fair for approaches all the time, and shield grabs mess me up so bad, hate em. But, I'm telling you anyways. X3

There's a really weird timing. Orochi explained it pretty well, but I know if Pikachu does Fair a certain way on block, it's very difficult to punish. I've tried grabbing, Ftilting, etc. and if they weave out in time we just can't reach.

Also as a note, Pikachu's QA and Thunder Jolt (neutral b) have a lot of priority. Spin dashing towards a Pikachu is probably not a wise idea, as throwing out a thunder jolt will stop you in your tracks if you're not charged up enough. I do it a lot against Sonics when I notice I'm being overwhelmed by spin dashes, so be warned.

Definitely, I moreso meant that it's not as intimidating as something like Fireball. We have to respect it but I think it's more manageable than match-ups where we deal with needles and such.

Most Pikachus won't (and should not XD) use Skull Bash as an offensive move. It may or may not have priority over sonic's spin dash (and I wouldn't know because I haven't tested it myself, but I take your words for it) but you shouldn't have to worry about getting skull bashed into (unless it's the custom heavy bash) during the actual fight. It's mostly used for recovery. ouo

Standard definitely is very little of a threat, and has been buffed as a recovery move in terms of distance, but it's super vulnerable to Bair. QA is much safer.

Like stated above, Thunder is also a bit tricky. While it's uses have been altered since previous titles, it IS still possible to get thunder spiked at the top of the stage and die. A quick air-dodge will keep you safe no problem, if you do it right. For kills nowadays I mostly use the thunder combo, (Uthrow into Thunder) and sonic is usually viable for one around the 100-120% zone. If you're in that area, keep away from getting grabbed, and if you do, remember to DI it, because it'll be useless afterwards. Once you're over 130%, you'll fly too high for a thunder combo and you won't have to worry as much. :3
(Just as a note, Pikachu would have made thunder come down even if he was interrupted during the animation in previous titles too, so that hasn't changed. Just figured I'd correct that statement ^u^ )

During start-up, at least in Brawl, you could hit Pikachu as he was yelling his own name and the lightning wouldn't strike. I could be wrong, but I am so near certain that this was the case because I remember constantly trying to punish the start-up in this game and being furious every time.

I think Pika has ways to pressure and bait an airdodge for Thunder, but like I said, it won't be happening all the time, but cannot be ignored.

I personally don't think going after Pika to ledge guard is a good idea, seeing as Pikachu's QA can reach insane heights if done correctly. Pika is also excellent at under-stage recovery and gaining horizontal distance, and is highly unlikely to get stopped on the way back to the stage. Unless you can predict the movement of the QA and interrupt it, I'd say it's too risky... But you can try your luck. :3

I only said that edgeguarding isn't the worst as Pika can be interrupted by springs and things like that if you know where they're going… But you're right, the distance covered, speed, and etc. make it so that you're probably better off just punishing whatever they do after.

I would like to say Pikachu does indeed have an advantage, but only by a little. But once you know all of our tricks, you'll be able to take on a Pika no prob. XD

I don't want to assert too much but after reading this thread and seeing the match-up, my gut tells me this is the case.

But again, I'd say it's a fairly neutral match-up. I'd need to see it more to truly say if any one character has a significant enough of an advantage over the other.

 

[KyroChao]

^
We saved several replays of the MU if you'd like to see them, We have one of at least every stage that is currently legal.

 

[WispBae]

Hello there! This week, the doggy boards are discussing Sonic and would very much like your input!


Click this totally edgy and original Sonic OC to go straight to the forum! Thanks!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Jesus what is that.

Kill it with fire.


Also, everyone here needs to step their ledge snap punish game up

 

[da K.I.D.]

Www.twitch.tv/smashtheroc.

Playing this matchup right now

 

[Camalange]

Www.twitch.tv/smashtheroc.

Playing this matchup right now

It's not loading right for me. Either buffers or is jumpy. Tried two different browsers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

We had a lot of crashing and internet issues so we couldnt even stream right....

 

[Camalange]

What a tease.

So, how about that Pika write-up then?

 

[ToonKake]

Yes a PROPER Sonic Matchup Guide Thank God Espically for Rosa Luma i hope for the next Chapter to prob Be Fox Matchups with him being the most Annoying Char to Deal With As a Sonic Main & with Foxes Presssure to be Too Much for My Pacman to Combat.

 

[Camalange]

I too would like to discuss Fox.

 

[Rucent]

Yes a PROPER Sonic Matchup Guide Thank God Espically for Rosa Luma

<3

I too would like to discuss Fox.

Well we could potentially discuss Fox next week, but that is if he gets the most votes in the newest ballot.
http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-8-voting-open.405447/

Until then, it's time to start the newest matchup discussion! VS

 

[Myst_R]

I guess the biggest advantage Falcon has against us is his Jab.

My greatest question is "How do you approach a campy Falcon ?"

I've met two types of Falcon, really aggressive and really campy. I can handle the first type, but I don't know how to approach the second type. His jab just kills everything. I recently discovered that a well spotted Fair can break his Jab so the match up can be a little more balanced. However, all his kill options make him really punitive. I just can not find a way to deal as much damage as him when he makes a mistake. Plus, his weight makes him really hard to kill for Sonic.

My frustration leads me to think it is a completely unbalanced match up when Falcon decides to be campy, but I'm sure you will give me the answers I need =)

 

[Smog Frog]

just jump over and nair

 

[ToonKake]

<3


Well we could potentially discuss Fox next week, but that is if he gets the most votes in the newest ballot.
http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-8-voting-open.405447/

Until then, it's time to start the newest matchup discussion! VS

i Absoutlely LOVE the Sonic V Falcon Matchups there Very fun & i do so well in em but yea Well imma be votin up Fox Den !

 

[Camalange]

Falcon seems to have a lot of disagreement. I know a lot of people who think Falcon beats Sonic and a lot of people who think the opposite.

 

[Myst_R]

Falcon seems to have a lot of disagreement. I know a lot of people who think Falcon beats Sonic and a lot of people who think the opposite.

So guys, what's your experience with Falcon ?

 

[Rucent]

I do like to say that from my experience, most Falcons love the jab, and rarely use side B, which can kill pretty decently with rage when Sonic is at the 100% mark. They also use down B less, so be ready to shield those specials when you do. Neutral B won't be used unless they go for the disrespect. Just stay away, or get behind him and punish. Don't do this too much, because they could do that turn around Falcon Punch, which can do more.

Falcon doesn't really have a great recovery, but can use it again if he gets hit or grabs sonic with Up B. Make him waste the jump, and gimp with spring. A good fair can also do the job. As for Falcon's gimp game, they mostly go for spikes with Dair, stage spike with bair, use the up tilt spike. Sometimes they will drop for the knee, but its not the best idea for him since we can easily air dodge/spring out, and put him in the bad position.

As for Falcon's grabs, be careful. They tend to have you slide a lot, and at the ledge, it can set up for a spike. What you can do is try and footstool him (It ruins their day), air dodge, or move/spring away. They can also drop you off the stage when they grab which can setup for spike. Falcon's dash grab covers a lot of ground.

Falcon's uair is also pretty good. Good hitbox, decent knockback, and can combo into itself. His grabs can set up into it.

Becareful of Falcon's Fsmash, because its like Sonic's. (But with more power/range?) It also does that weird thing where if you get FSmashed too close to him, it sends you the the opposite direction it will go.

I think the match up is pretty much even. Since Falcon has the speed and power to keep up and pressure Sonic, and both can combo/punish the other pretty hard. Captain Falcon can rack kills at lower percents, but Sonic can too. Sonic is easier at offstage game. I personally think Captain Falcon slightly beats us on a grounded battle, but we can mix up.

I'll give more details later. I wanna play Splatoon, just got it two days ago, haven't got to play it yet. xD

 

[ToonKake]

I do like to say that from my experience, most Falcons love the jab, and rarely use side B, which can kill pretty decently with rage when Sonic is at the 100% mark. They also use down B less, so be ready to shield those specials when you do. Neutral B won't be used unless they go for the disrespect. Just stay away, or get behind him and punish. Don't do this too much, because they could do that turn around Falcon Punch, which can do more.

Falcon doesn't really have a great recovery, but can use it again if he gets hit or grabs sonic with Up B. Make him waste the jump, and gimp with spring. A good fair can also do the job. As for Falcon's gimp game, they mostly go for spikes with Dair, stage spike with bair, use the up tilt spike. Sometimes they will drop for the knee, but its not the best idea for him since we can easily air dodge/spring out, and put him in the bad position.

As for Falcon's grabs, be careful. They tend to have you slide a lot, and at the ledge, it can set up for a spike. What you can do is try and footstool him (It ruins their day), air dodge, or move/spring away. They can also drop you off the stage when they grab which can setup for spike.

Falcon's uair is also pretty good. Good hitbox, decent knockback, and can combo into itself. His grabs can set up into it.

Becareful when you get FSmashed, because its like Sonic's. (But with more power/range?) It also does that weird thing where if you get FSmashed too close to him, it sends you the the opposite direction it will go.

I think the match up is pretty much even. Since Falcon has the speed and power to keep up and pressure Sonic, and both can combo/punish the other pretty hard. Captain Falcon can rack kills at lower percents, but Sonic can too. Sonic is easier at offstage game. I personally think Captain Falcon slightly beats us on a grounded battle, but we can mix up.

I'll give more details later. I wanna play Splatoon, just got it two days ago, haven't got to play it yet. xD

Which is why i LOVE THE SONIC V FALCON MATCHUP !!

 

[Rucent]

In terms on who could kill the other earlier, its Falcon. All his Smashes, side b, a sweetspot fair(The Knee), uair, and bair can also kill. He spikes with dair and utilt.

I personally think choosing stages with lower ceilings/platforms close to ceiling is not the best idea in this MU, because Falcon imo has an easier time juggling sonic, and his uair can easily be set up by his grabs. Stages I had in mind is Halberd, Town & City, and Battlefield respectively. I also think Delfino Plaza is not really that great agianst Falcon, because of the whole janky ceiling changes during stage transformation. Platforms in general emphasize is good areials too.

 

[Rucent]

Captain Falcon Week is over! It's time to dicuss VS !

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link! http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-9-voting-open.406406/

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I know this is late but.. not much to say, really.

vs

• His recovery is quite linear. Always drop a Spring to make his life harder ;
• Beware of his Bair. It's fast and strong, so always keep an eye out whenever he has his back facing you. Watch out for RARs as well;
• Being on a platform is asking to be hit with a string of Uairs. Also, don't keep shielding for too long when on a platform above him, as he can just use an up B to punish that;
• Don't go airdodge-happy when upthrown. He can read that and just knee you;
• ...

 

[Rucent]

I know this is late but.. not much to say, really.

It's all good! You wern't crazy late. And the more, the merrier.

As for , he can stop our SD/SC with his Jab (most times), his Foward Tilt, Forward Smash, and Nair.

He can easily punish our landing with Up Tilt and Up Smash, espicially if Sonic uses dair.

Fox's recovery is also not the best. His Up B has consistant and a lot of start up lag, so following him off stage to get the potential stage spike is not that bad of an idea. Fox can also Side B to the stage and sweetspot into the ledge. If you know the distance Fox goes from Side B, you can position yourself for a free Foward Smash or a Dair Spike.

Becareful of being double jabbed by Fox, it can set him up for free Up Smashes/Forward Tilt/Up Tilt/Grab and more jabs.
If you are very close to Fox when in this jab lock, DI Up and Towards Fox and jump/spring. Otherwise, DI Up and Away from Fox and Jump/Spring.

I don't reconmend Stages with low ceilings at all in this match up. Platform stages also allow Fox a lot more ways to get around Sonic and kill earlier with Up Air/Up Smash.​

 

[ToonKake]

Captain Falcon Week is over! It's time to dicuss VS !

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link! http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-9-voting-open.406406/

YESSS FINNOOLAYYY XD XD XD

It's all good! You wern't crazy late. And the more, the merrier.

As for , he can stop our SD/SC with his Jab (most times), his Foward Tilt, Forward Smash, and Nair.

He can easily punish our landing with Up Tilt and Up Smash, espicially if Sonic uses dair.

Fox's recovery is also not the best. His Up B has consistant and a lot of start up lag, so following him off stage to get the potential stage spike is not that bad of an idea. Fox can also Side B to the stage and sweetspot into the ledge. If you know the distance Fox goes from Side B, you can position yourself for a free Foward Smash.

Becareful of being double jabbed by Fox, it can set him up for free Up Smashes/Forward Tilt/Up Tilt/Grab and more jabs.
If you are very close to Fox when in this jab lock, DI Up and Towards Fox and jump/spring. Otherwise, DI Up and Away from Fox and Jump/Spring.

I don't reconmend Stages with low ceilings at all in this match up. Platform stages also allow Fox a lot more ways to get around Sonic and kill earlier with Up Air/Up Smash.​

the Jab lock is a #1 Pissy Move for me no doubt & ill take the no Low Celing stages into consideration which is from what i noticed with da fox matchups he can easliy nip u with a Uair those stages being: Town & City, Halberd & i think Smashville for som reason but i could be wrong bout dat. lol

 

[Myst_R]

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure you can shield his double jab lock, maybe you can can add a DI downward. I remember escaping it this way, leaving him able to jab me two times with no way to up smash then.

 

[Skarfelt]

vs
This matchup changes a lot based on whether you have customs on or not - I'm more familiar without customs so I'll go through all that first.

Sonic's one of the only characters in the game who can punish lasers from across the stage which puts Fox in the unfortunate position of being nearly forced to approach like most characters against Sonic. Sonic can combo and juggle Fox quite wel but so can Fox to him. When chatting to @Ixisnaugus about this a few months back he said ideally, Fox wants to be in that nice range where he can space utilts, ftilts and jabs but not close enough to get grabbed or generally hit by anything which I completely agree with.

Not sure if this is universal but Down Throw is trash against Fox as he can just immediately tech in place and jab before you have a chance to do anything. Fox's jab combos on Sonic aren't infinite but we can do jab jab up smash fairly easily at KO percentage - I believe jab jab grab is true as well but don't quote me on that.

Eh in general Fox has to play super boringly and attempt to make Sonic come to him in a haphazard way. He has basically no moves that beat Sonic's Side B and trading with it seems to put Sonic at frame advantage. As the Sonic player I'd imagine you just want to frustrate the Fox as much as possible to force him to do stupid things. With Fox being as light as he is, you can KO with your Smashes and even Back Throw surprisingly early.

Sorry for the ramble but basically, you want Fox to either be far enough way where you force pressure with Side B or close enough that you can force pressure with grabs, jabs and patient damage. Just remain patient and don't do silly things.

On the other hand, with customs, Fox wins just cuz he gets a laser that beats Side B. I haven't played it that much but it basically means you guys can't approach us at all which is always a cool thing so yay for customs being stupid.