Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

[GwJ]

The R.O.B. boards are discussion this matchup at the moment. Please take some time out and help us if you have the time: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-4-sonic.392455/#post-18639421

@ Camalange

 

[Camalange]

The R.O.B. boards are discussion this matchup at the moment. Please take some time out and help us if you have the time: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-4-sonic.392455/#post-18639421

@ Camalange

I might be too busy tonight to get to this, but will definitely have plenty to contribute in due time.

 

[SonofDoug]

Hey all, long time lurker but I figured j could help since my primary is weeg. D-throw to nado is pretty much guaranteed below 100 and it will kill, but after that it becomes risky. Just remember that he has another jump if he misses though, many people forget and try to get my landing with a smash and eat a bair is their lag. d-throw to nair will kill at like 120 when nair is fresh so watch out for that. Also sometimes if the nair doesn't kill I'll come up with my nado and try to catch you off guard, but if it misses I'm not getting back without a punish. If he grabs DI behind him, at low percent he might miss the second fair, but if he catches on he might throw out a bair instead.

Unfortunately I don't play against many sonics (I usually am the sonic lol) so I can't give too much mu specific stuff. All I can say is that weeg is incredibly easy to gimp and sonic should have an easy time of that with his offstage prowess.

 

[Camalange]

Hey all, long time lurker but I figured j could help since my primary is weeg. D-throw to nado is pretty much guaranteed below 100 and it will kill, but after that it becomes risky. Just remember that he has another jump if he misses though, many people forget and try to get my landing with a smash and eat a bair is their lag. d-throw to nair will kill at like 120 when nair is fresh so watch out for that. Also sometimes if the nair doesn't kill I'll come up with my nado and try to catch you off guard, but if it misses I'm not getting back without a punish. If he grabs DI behind him, at low percent he might miss the second fair, but if he catches on he might throw out a bair instead.

How much of a factor does DI after a Luigi Dthrow take place in regards to what follow-ups they can get?

Like, if Tornado combos out of Dthrow below 100%, how much of a DI read does it require, and can I force them to settle for Fair/Nair if I DI it properly?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Yea we can DI his dthrow to force specific aerial followups. Such as holding towards luigi to force him to go for bair or nair or holding away from him to only allow for fair followups. Basically depending on % we can force luigi to respond a certain way and hopefully throw them off with our DI.

 

[SonofDoug]

I'm at work so I'm not certain but im pretty sure it's true, but the weeg has to be a good masher. D-throw sh nado is real quick but di away if he goes up too quickly and your off center and low you might fall out.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, the discussion for Luigi was suppose to end two days ago; but, work hasn't allowed me much lee-way for getting these projects done.

... That should change, after I get off work today and into Thursday morning! I'll have a 4-day weekend, and nothing planned for the weekend. Usual tourney on Thursday night, birthday dinner to celebrate what I believe to be grandma's 72nd or 75th birthday (we don't really know how old she is), and I suppose a practice session for smash Friday which won't eat up all my time.

And I'm also glad to have left the discussion open for a little bit longer. Any more information is always appreciated, and I'll have more to work with when the time I eventually write up a synopsis comes.

... In the meantime, I see that the vote for week 4's character is in fact... a mirror match of Sonic Vs. Sonic. Strange, isn't it? I thought it would take a little bit longer to get around; but, hey.

I would like for people to get started on that; though, if you feel that you'd still like to discuss Luigi; by all means, go for it. I'm just closing formal time for it... now!

 

[BlackPhantom]

Yay, but how do we give advice on the ditto?

 

[Kinzer]

Yay, but how do we give advice on the ditto?

hsdbgfbysutgbyuesgt

That's one problem I hope somebody here is capable and willing to face.

I am ******** when it comes to the mirror matchup.

It makes no sense, either!

I have studied this character extensively for years, I have played him when I have considered quitting or using a different character, I have refused to play smash for any reason other than pushing the limits of Sonic's metagame.

And yet, I cannot, even if my life depended on it, figure out how to beat this character.

Normally, the way to go about it is knowing the weaknesses and exploiting them. It is even helpful to know this as a player because you can expect what the opponent wants and mitigate their options towards exposing your faults.

... But what do you do when your opponent wants the same thing you do...? What do you do, when your opponent is, in fact, yourself...?

@ Camalange - Hey. You know that tiem you said you would give me advice over Skype on the mirror matchup? If you aren't busy, I could use your help over here.

... Along with anybody else who was knowledge or experience on the mirror matchup. The only thing I got is that you should never use Spring Jump's coil on a Sonic's shield. Sonic has poor landing options, and has great coverage for air opponents. Add two and two together and... that's how I lost one tournament set. :X

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

basically in the ditto a lot of sonic's tends to spring jump out of spin dash once they cross up your shield you could either

A) wait for their landing as they can only really air dodge or throw out a nair, or falling unsafe fair or dair.

B) spring jump after them and harass them as you both fall.

 

[Camalange]

The Sonic mirror has a really weird dynamic. So much so that I'm going to have trouble putting it into words...

For example, sometimes you can just opt to purposely clank spins if they're going for it too so you can see how they react. If they go for a tilt or something, you know you can probably just jab afterward and win the frame game. It's a lot of just knowing Sonic's movement and going around it with your same tools, lol.

I'll purposely miss sometimes just to condition... Like, I'll spin over their spin if I opt for the clank just to be confusing.

As what was already said, Sonic actually juggles Sonic pretty efficiently. He's relatively easy to combo, lol. Once you confirm a hit you can pretty much keep it going with little fear.

Edgeguarding Sonic is kind of stupid, but can be effective. You're highly unlikely to gimp him, but Sonic can pursue himself so... Dropping springs if they recover low just for free damage, Bairing them, punishing unsafe spins for recovery, etc.

As most mirrors, it really comes down to playing the player. Use what you know about Sonic, see what they know about Sonic, how they apply it, then find your strategy to deal with theirs.

I play really patient in the ditto. It's stupid because a lot of time can be spent just seeing two blue balls bounce around each other without hitting. I very rarely commit to KO options, as Sonic can punish himself for whiffing. Bthrow and Uair kills are probably the most reliable.

I never ever really feel like I have momentum in the ditto. I just go for making good choices and taking what I can get. Force them into bad positions and capitalize appropriately.

If someone commits to a spin first, the other can just beat them with a stronger Spin Dash, lol.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Usmash and Fair also help shut down other sonic's aerial spin attack recovery and approach options. Ledge Trumping another sonic usually either forces them to spring jump or air dodge and they Homing attack. Also a majority o the MU is going to be whoever can force the other towards the ledge at higher % for bthrow KOs and whoever punishes spin attacks better through early to mid %s. Like Camalange has said the ditto basically all comes down to character knowledge and knowledge of your opponents option selects for certain situations and conditioning them to act in a way you can capitalize. While this can be applied to every MU in dittos MUs knowledge of your own characters options as far as whats safe and unsafe on block and what % combo's and KO setups are available will give you the edge vs another sonic.

 

[jordanm43444]

My opinion on the Sonic mirror.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdhSbl8qb8

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Mayhaps more appropriate for this thread: Wario. Halp me.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Well, Sonic dittos are still boring as hell but at least it's not as bad as it was in Brawl.

It all boils down do character knowledge, really. Also, USmash punishes after shielding a failed SDJ+aerial are real.

On a side note, I noticed that I almost always miss when trying to go for a Bair followup after a Spin move whereas my Sonic opponents almost always seem to connect that.. Granted, I almost always go for the Uair instead of Bair. Oh well.

 

[IWinToLose]

A trick for Sonic mirrors that I often abuse:

You tend to have the advantage being the 2nd Sonic to SD from neutral. If you SD (side B right?) and use the invincibility frames right as they are about to connect their SD/SC onto you, you will win and get a free UAir follow up.

Also, being the 2nd Sonic to do this has other advantages as you can shield if you feel like your SD won't come out in time.

 

[Camalange]

A trick for Sonic mirrors that I often abuse:

You tend to have the advantage being the 2nd Sonic to SD from neutral. If you SD (side B right?) and use the invincibility frames right as they are about to connect their SD/SC onto you, you will win and get a free UAir follow up.

Also, being the 2nd Sonic to do this has other advantages as you can shield if you feel like your SD won't come out in time.

Yeah... Sonic's neutral game is already stupid, which makes the ditto neutral even more stupid.

 

[IWinToLose]

As with most other chars vs Sonic, Sonic has tools to punish Sonic after shielding SD/SC. I'll list a few:

1. If you shield a Spin Dash and they believe they have a hit confirm and go for a NAir.
You can punish with BAir. If they DI further behind you, make sure to hold back. If they DI towards you, you can punish with either UAir or BAir (DI'ed forward)

2. If you shield a Spin Dash and they follow up with an UAir.
I believe BAir isn't guaranteed unless it's perfect shield with OOS BAir. However, if they don't air dodge immediately, you can go for the BAir and there's a good chance it will connect. Usually you can punish this with UAir, especially if they DI'ed towards you instead of away from you

3. If you shield a Spin Dash and they follow up with a spring. This is a bit more complicated. Sorry if it's a jumbled wall of text.
You need to guess this. There are a couple factors to keep in mind to help you guess this. Obviously if your opponent never does this, you don't need to worry about this (this isn't too common for most Sonic's you fight to do this). If your opponent is aware of this option as a mix up, here are a few clues for when they will use this option. If you've been shielding for a while, they will assume you will continue shielding and if they try to do an aerial immediately after, they will get punished. They will often use the spring in this case. If you perfect shield, they need to guess if there was a hit confirmation and either go for the aerial or go for the spring. Simply put, if you're shielding for awhile/some time, you are more likely to face this option. Countering this option is simple. Simply continue shielding. Keep in mind that if the opponent delays the spring, he can bait a punish from you and punish you with this spring option. Position yourself in front of where they would land if they DAir (in front of Sonic by about 4 Sonic lengths). Make sure to confirm that they are using DAir and input a punish before they land. Smashes need to be inputted much earlier by Sonic and would be considered a read. Grabs and jabs can be done on reaction. Use this to your advantage if you're just fishing for damage or for kills. If they don't do DAir, stay on the opponent and try to punish their landing. Good punishing choices are pivot FSmashes, grabs, dash attacks, and in harder read situations, SD/SC can be used. Sometimes FTilt and Up Smash can be used. If they are trying to cross you up, you can go for turn around grabs and turn around jabs on reaction.

4. If they 'stop' at your shield with SD/SC.
If they stop at your shield, jab/grab on reaction.

5. If they go past you on the ground.
Be prepared for them to possibly come back. Don't roll in this situation as it can sometimes catch you if you roll. You can, however, often get a free dash attack on them, especially if your back is near the ledge. They will be turning around with no hit box and your dash attack will beat their turn around in this situation. Keep in mind that if you do a dash attack and they jump instead of turn around, they can usually punish with a spring or at least land back on stage for free.

There are more options for Sonic to do after a shielded SD/SC (like double jump either forward or backwards, air dodge, etc) but these ones tend to have much higher variance and I didn't want to go through all of it. This advice is applicable in any match up vs Sonic, but hopefully I listed some specific options that Sonic has vs Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

So it's been a business week since I started the discussion for Sonic... I think... *Cough.*

I really appreciate all the feedback you all have been giving. It means so much to me, considering I am a complete derp against the mirror... or myself.

And thank you, Cammy, for at least updating the thread title. I'm sorry; having an uncontrollable cough that gives me the gag-reflrex feeling doesn't leave me much room to focus on projects when I can barely maintain my own well-being. v_v

 

[Camalange]

So it's been a business week since I started the discussion for Sonic... I think... *Cough.*

I really appreciate all the feedback you all have been giving. It means so much to me, considering I am a complete derp against the mirror... or myself.

And thank you, Cammy, for at least updating the thread title. I'm sorry; having an uncontrollable cough that gives me the gag-reflrex feeling doesn't leave me much room to focus on projects when I can barely maintain my own well-being. v_v

Feel better soon, Kinz.

I only recently noticed it hadn't been changed so I went ahead and did it myself.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I echo the getting better soon sentiment. Also I don't think we have to be too stringent timing wise on discussing a character, as long as discussion keeps moving along.

Question as I don't have a partner to check this with, can Sonic punish if we tech a dthrow with anything? I'm thinking ftilt probably won't have the range, but dash attack maybe? Also knowing that bthrow makes characters face away from the stage makes Sonic easier to edgeguard, cutting out spinshot makes his recovery route more predictable.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I think the dthrow being techable is still totally ****ed up (i.e. we'll still lose framewise no matter what).

We can use dash attack but they can just shield it, I think. We can't go for a regrab because Sakurai and shielding is just begging to be grabbed.

I think our best bet is just to not use dthrow against someone who knows how to tech it.

About the bthrow, at higher percents we can turnaround HA and still use the Spinshot as usual (if needed. Overuse it and you will definitely be punished).

Or SS with a reversed SD, but that's not 100% reliable so.. use at your own risk.

 

[Camalange]

Just do Uthrow combos at low percents and you'll be fine. Dthrow at higher percents or near the ledge and you're pretty much safe. Even if they tech it, they're far enough that they won't really have enough time to hit you as long as you don't try to immediately run at them.

Also, I don't think a reverse SD into Spinshot is all too troublesome, so the Bthrow angle is pretty negligible imo in the mirror. If anything, the recovering Sonic can have an easier time protecting themself with Bair too, lol.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I didnt think of that, good point. So basically just juggling is the key, which is pretty much the summary of every matchup so far lol.

 

[Camalange]

I feel like the entire metagame of Smash 4 is not letting anyone touch the ground ever.

 

[IWinToLose]

I feel like the entire metagame of Smash 4 is not letting anyone touch the ground ever.

That's an interesting statement because as Sonic, the reverse is true as well. You can spend a ridiculous amount of time in the air until you can land safely, go for a mix up, or short hopping for a reaction. It's not as extreme as some characters like Jigglypuff, but Sonic definitely can spend a lot of time in the air. Most matches I'm in the air longer than I'm on the ground.

 

[Kinzer]

I feel like the entire metagame of Smash 4 is not letting anyone touch the ground ever.

Truer words have never been spoken.

... Alright, non-existent ladies and gentlemen. Week's over, and it's time for a new topic at hand. Please take this time to discuss Rosalina.

For once, I, too, shall have something to say on the matter. Extensively, at that. Look king forward when I'm not pressed for time.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Not a full reply but this is what I'll say for now: SDJ/SCJ are awesome to get rid of Luma. Just do it whenever they're near the edge.

MU is still annoying as hell, though.

 

[Kinzer]

Not a full reply but this is what I'll say for now: SDJ/SCJ are awesome to get rid of Luma. Just do it whenever they're near the edge.

MU is still annoying as hell, though.

You had me up until the edge.

Rosalina is floaty enough that that can probably challenge you offstage or at least give you a harder time recovering. And her aerials are not joke, they ground-bounce you on the groudn and give her a free DSmash punish if you don't tech; which, half the time, you won't because you aren't expecting it.

I much prefer to be on the ground where I can land, then run forward, and come back for the reattempt at an approach with hopefully Rosalina havign a weaker shield or the Luma not next to her. If they try and punish my landing after the spindash jump, the best they'll probably get is a dash attack assuming you're not doing a lyric roll or anything.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I see what you mean and agree with it, but getting rid of Luma with SDJ/SCJ is so easy that it shouldn't be overlooked.

If you don't want to risk overshooting, you can always try to double jump or Spring ASAP after hitting Luma.

Or you can even go for a SHSDJ: activate double BSBS (so you won't be able to jump out of the SD hop) and mash jump after a SD, and then you can Uair to cover any punish attempts.

Just don't forget to recover if needed. Spring only.. lols

 

[Gregory2590]

I prefer to handle her in platformed stages just for the sake of having more approach directions. Facing her on Omega Destinations is just a massive headache given that you're essentially breaching two walls of defenses in a straight line.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Are you sure? Platforms seem dangerous, due to her sheer height and, well, USmashes.

 

[BlackPhantom]

Ya I played two rosalinas in tourney and they just loved poking below me on platforms with u-tilt and u-air.

 

[Gregory2590]

Are you sure? Platforms seem dangerous, due to her sheer height and, well, USmashes.

Well, who knows. I just had better matches with her on platformed stages compared to flat ones.

 

[Camalange]

I'll have basically nothing to contribute to this discussion... My apologies. I'm looking to learn from you all.

Also, I had a tournament match with 6WX streamed so I can link to that for reference to add to the Sonic mirror discussion. I only took one stock off of him but I kept up, so you'll probably learn a thing or two from it (at least from him...)

Granted, customs were on, so that changes the dynamic for sure.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, who knows. I just had better matches with her on platformed stages compared to flat ones.

This is probably just me in general; but, I found that the Spring was helpful in this matchup. Sometimes, it hits the dog-tamer, sometimes, it hits the dog.

I don't think it's too much to expect that since the Luma can't shield for itself, it'll get hit by Springs more often than not, and it'll be separated from Rosalina.

... What good that will do you when you're jumping up is beyond me; but, I'll take anything I can get.

The coil can't go through platformers, however. So... That's a thing.

I'll have basically nothing to contribute to this discussion... My apologies. I'm looking to learn from you all.

Also, I had a tournament match with 6WX streamed so I can link to that for reference to add to the Sonic mirror discussion. I only took one stock off of him but I kept up, so you'll probably learn a thing or two from it (at least from him...)

Granted, customs were on, so that changes the dynamic for sure.

Eh. I eventually want to incorporate customs into the discussion. I'm just waiting for them to be a little bit more accepted universally. So far, it's working. Vegassmash has 'em, now in both our locals and monthly.

 

[Auroura]

I've played against a lot of Rosalina's but not sure I have too much to offer here. I definitely feel it's a match up I'm forced to take my time in. Being above her is highly undesirable because of usmash,utilt, uair. She's definitely not fun to fight against in the air as pretty much all of her aerials can space you out really well. Be careful about what options you select when jumping out of spin dash/charge. I personally like to get Luma out of the way in this matchup as Luma can stop SD/SC with star bits. I aim to punish dash attacks and I'm sure it's obvious but don't go for pummels if you get the grab. Maybe one but I've noticed that squeezing in one is sometimes pushing it if Luma is out. I'm personally not afraid to use homing attack in this MU to apply shield pressure even if it will hit Luma, but that may not necessarily be the wisest. Either way, use it sparingly and just take your time. Hope that helps some.

 

[Jords2Good]

For me, Rosalina makes me more cautious whenever I rush in cause that luma will always be in the way.
In my experiences, its not that hard to knock out luma with sonic. A simple dash attack near the edge should do it.
Its hard what to think of her right now cause I don't really fight Pro rosalinas.

This is the best coverage I got with her in my replays.


Sonic vs Rosalina - Super Smash bros for Wii U: http://youtu.be/l0IUBUEja5s

She's definitely hard though, I've faced tough opponents before that really know her stuff.

My best tip I could give out is to avoid being over her. Her up smash, Up tilt, up air will destroy you if your not careful.

Avoid her aerials too, cause its hard to hit her when she putting her aerials out.

 

[Rucent]

Hey guys! Yesterday, I won my first tournament at Genericon! For Winners Finals and Grand Finals, I went up agianst Rosalina and Luma and I think I could help.

For starters, if you ever happen to get Rosalina to use the Up B, ALWAYS PUNISH IT, ESPICIALLY IF SHES USING IT TO GET TO THE LEDGE. What I have done in one of the battles is run off the stage and perform the Bair before she hits the ledge, causing her to fly into the stage wall and get stage spiked. Thanks to Sonic Orochi on the ledgesnapping video, which made me know about that stuff.

(UNCONFIRMED) According to the Rosalina Player I went agianst, if Sonic's hitbox is active during is uSmash and touches Rosalina as she activates the dair, Sonic will always get the garunteed hit.

As mentioned above in other's posts, NEVER stay directly above Rosalina, ESPICIALLY IF LUMA IS WITH HER. The Rosalina player told me that luma's hitbox in uair directs the opponent to Rosalina's hitbox, which causes the intense knock back. This gives even more reason to destroy Luma.

Eliminating Luma is much more easier with Sonic than any other character IMO. Mainly because SD/SC will always hit Luma if it is next to Rosalina and she shields. Kinzer has also mentioned the spring, which also helped out a bit with pressuring/escape. My way of returning to the stage from above is by using dair, but only if it is high enough to where I will be able to auto-cancel the end lag when I land. I also air dodge as I fall fast/fast fall, because the distance I travel between the beginning and end of the air dodge's invincibility frames is very long, great for when Rosalina & Luma try to follow upwards with up air.

What I did in the match up a lot was when I launched Rosalina away from Luma, I focused on either killing luma, or knocking it off the stage.

Whenever I grabbed Rosalina then threw her, if Luma was close by I would usually get hit by it before I could do anything else. So mid way into the set I decided that throwing Rosalina while distancing myself from Luma would be the best way to get around this. For instance, if I grabbed Rosalina and Luma was right in front of me, I would use the bThrow to distance myself. If he was behind me however, I would use the fThrow, because that one ends the fastest out of the other throws allowing me to potentially shield, space with fTilt, or run away after throwing.

The last thing I can think of from the match up is to probably avoid stages with a lot of platforms, espicially ones that are low enough for Rosalina to quickly uair/fair/utilt from. Low Ceilings can also potentially be an issue. The one and only time Town & City was played, I was bodied so hard.
​

I hope this information helps! :D

 

[Funkermonster]

How to beat ? Or at least bypass his pellets? Even though I practice both characters I don't get a lot experience with the MU on either side, and I usually lose the game even when I do.