Some IC stuff.

[Hylian]

So, I started playing IC's again. Except this time seriously. Like...I main them now.

The past week I've been practicing with PhantomX's wario and I've found some things that work pretty well that I was unaware of before. Keep in mind these things may only work on Wario, but if they work on wario I'm willing to bet they work on a lot of characters haha. Some of this may be known, hell all of it may be known...I just want to post it because it's useful .

I don't know how guarenteed any of this is, but it worked for me pretty consistantly.

- Desynched nana jab combos into grab. How you desynch them is up to you..quick pivots usually work. Just have either climbers jab and make the other do nothing. It's a free grab if the jab connects.

- FF nair combos into grab. I found this to suprisingly work a LOT. I could even uair wario, then FF a nair. If he airdodges the nair he will fall with you and you can grab him. If he doesn't airdodge the nair, well you hit him with nair lol. SH nairs lead into grabs if both hits connect, and falling nairs work as well. You might have to grab behind you depending on their DI.

Some problems I had:

- Wario can kill nana amazingly fast. If he hits her with dair it seperates them and he can nair into jab jab uair or fsmash and you can't really stop him. If you run after him the nair hits you, if you try and hit him after the nair his fsmash just super armors your hit and ***** nana. PhantomX would come back and kill my nana when I had like 30% with his invinciblity frames. IC's run slow so I couldn't run from him, all I could really do is spam rolls and dodges. If I tried going to the edge he would gimp me more often then not.

- Blizzard is hard to use against wario. He moves so fast in the air he can be on you before you can even get an uair out with the other climber. It's annoying.

- He uses his wafts to gimp nana, not to kill. On stage if he hits with anything he can waft nana since she doesn't DI, and then just edgeguard her. Popo can't really stop him once he's off the stage.

- Recovering from below is almost impossible. He will just nair me out of squall which kills nana, or edgehog my up-b, then drop down and waft popo, which kills them.


Hopefully I get to play against more characters soon.

 

[.AC.]

good stuff,maybe then ICs can figure somthing out to counter the things wario does that affects them so much.

 

[momochuu]

I think Wario might be one of our more troublesome matchups just because of his playstyle. Almost all of our "go to" moves are near useless just because of how he moves. Blizzard will rarely hit, Squall gets outprioritized, and Ice Blocks are grounded. UpAir is really the only move out of our best moves that can hit him and even that's hard sometimes.

Edit: Also, nice grab setups. The only one I knew about was the jab cancel to grab.

 

[Hylian]

Oh, and this is a little silly, but IC's may have a grab release infinite on Wario.

Kind of redundent don't you think? .

Basically, if you are over a edge, or wario jump breaks for some reason, you can sort of grab him again if you have both climbers. If he mashes jump, he will footstool popo, but nana can grab him out of this footstool. It's really strange, but works for some reason.

Apparently, while IC's horizontal grab range sucks, they have a really good verticle grab range. I was grabbing phantomX out of a lot of his jumps. You can also PS the first hit of warios nair into a grab/fsmash.

 

[.AC.]

The pivot grab range as high as the player 1 sign/name tag or w/e its hilarious to grab people out of certain moves(tornado etc.)

 

[PhantomX]

Wario's jump is 7 frames, unfortunately. Even buffered it's a tad slow to avoid the grabs. He'd usually grab me after a hard read or when I was trying to jump away... pretty gay, lol.

I prefer to use Wafts in this matchup as damage builders or early nana killers, as SoPo is really easy for Wario (he's pretty safe if he approaches by walking, as he can shield on reaction or punish whatever Popo tries). ICs are most dangerous to Wario when they're about below 40% b/c they are harder to split up and keep separate, hence my use of Wafts early (half waft is like 30% instant).

 

[meepxzero]

i like fighting warios.

 

[kackamee]

I've never fought a Wario offline. But from my online experience, it's really tough. I especially hate the bike. You can't blizzard it because he will just tilt the bike upward and ram through you. You can try jumping, but then he'll jump off the bike and Dair you. Then camp...then repeat.

 

[Hylian]

I've never fought a Wario offline. But from my online experience, it's really tough. I especially hate the bike. You can't blizzard it because he will just tilt the bike upward and ram through you. You can try jumping, but then he'll jump off the bike and Dair you. Then camp...then repeat.

You can grab him off of his bike actually lol. Or just nair to grab if he tilts it.

 

[PhantomX]

i like fighting warios.

You need to see the ways that Wario can gimp Nana. Percentages are irrelevant in this matchup... one mistake from either of them is a stock loss.

 

[Teh Future]

So I played a wario today and went ICs. I noticed if you can avoid the poop and upair then wario has to go for a smash attack, which = getting grabbed. Also desynced blizzard is really good under platforms as usual, if you have the lead you can just camp under platforms w/ blizzard and wait for an opening

 

[Hylian]

So I played a wario today and went ICs. I noticed if you can avoid the poop and upair then wario has to go for a smash attack, which = getting grabbed. Also desynced blizzard is really good under platforms as usual, if you have the lead you can just camp under platforms w/ blizzard and wait for an opening

That wario didn't know how to play against IC's very well from that description.

Wario never needs to go for a kill move. He is one of the best characters in the game at gimping nana. If he hits both of you with dair she dies pretty much every time.

Blizzard also does pretty much nothing, even under platforms. If he shields your uair after you blizzard while on the platform, he's going to drop down with an uair and seperate you and then kill nana.

You want to camp with nair/uair, not blizzard.

Wafts are best used at low % to seperate the climbers so he can kill nana.

Most warios play against IC's REALLY wrong. PhantomX knows how, fiction probably knows how..PX beat Lains IC's in pools at Whobo >_>...and he wasn't nearly as good against IC's then as he is now.

 

[swordgard]

That wario didn't know how to play against IC's very well from that description.

Wario never needs to go for a kill move. He is one of the best characters in the game at gimping nana. If he hits both of you with dair she dies pretty much every time.

Blizzard also does pretty much nothing, even under platforms. If he shields your uair after you blizzard while on the platform, he's going to drop down with an uair and seperate you and then kill nana.

You want to camp with nair/uair, not blizzard.

Wafts are best used at low % to seperate the climbers so he can kill nana.

Most warios play against IC's REALLY wrong. PhantomX knows how, fiction probably knows how..PX beat Lains IC's in pools at Whobo >_>...and he wasn't nearly as good against IC's then as he is now.

And you do realize how lain completely ****ed up at that tourney? Not the best example ever.

 

[Hylian]

And you do realize how lain completely ****ed up at that tourney? Not the best example ever.

Uh, yes I was there lol. I danced with lain at that tournament <3.

Yes he was ****ed up from his trip, but I don't think it was so much that he had a legitament john for every single match he played that weekend. He just wasn't as consistant then as he is now skillwise.

 

[lain]

I was consistent. The trip just... bugged me. 15 hours in, I realized that I had 15 more to go and then 2 days worth of brawl that I HAD to do top 3 at, and I was alone.

The weekend before AND after I won a tournament. The trip just... idk... sucked.

 

[meepxzero]

dont feel bad lain its pretty much happened to me every big tourney. CoT4 couldnt stop coughing and my lungs wanted to fall out. Apex i stayed up for brawl+ and didnt get any sleep at all -_-. **** happens.

 

[Teh Future]

That wario didn't know how to play against IC's very well from that description.

Wario never needs to go for a kill move. He is one of the best characters in the game at gimping nana. If he hits both of you with dair she dies pretty much every time.

Blizzard also does pretty much nothing, even under platforms. If he shields your uair after you blizzard while on the platform, he's going to drop down with an uair and seperate you and then kill nana.

You want to camp with nair/uair, not blizzard.

Wafts are best used at low % to seperate the climbers so he can kill nana.

Most warios play against IC's REALLY wrong. PhantomX knows how, fiction probably knows how..PX beat Lains IC's in pools at Whobo >_>...and he wasn't nearly as good against IC's then as he is now.

lol it definitely wasnt the best wario Ill give you that, but there is no way wario can drop under a platform and upair before you can just upair again and shieldpoke him on a platform. Wario cant chase you off the stage very well you just cant recovery predictably and I dont really think you should be getting gimped that often. Even if nana is gimped sopo does not do that bad against Wario except for when your recovering.

 

[Hylian]

lol it definitely wasnt the best wario Ill give you that, but there is no way wario can drop under a platform and upair before you can just upair again and shieldpoke him on a platform. Wario cant chase you off the stage very well you just cant recovery predictably and I dont really think you should be getting gimped that often. Even if nana is gimped sopo does not do that bad against Wario except for when your recovering.

Um...can I just say everything you said isn't true and back it up with the fact that I have more wario experience then probably anyone but people who play with fiction all the time? lol.

There is a way. It's called power shielding then hitting down. Or just going over the platform around the back while one of them blizzards.

Wario can chase you anywhere he wants off the stage. If you squall he can just hit you out of it with an aireal. If you up-b he can just kill popo.

Sopopo can't do anything to wario. All wario has to do is walk forward slowly and react.

 

[Teh Future]

There is a way. It's called power shielding then hitting down. Or just going over the platform around the back while one of them blizzards.

Sopopo can't do anything to wario. All wario has to do is walk forward slowly and react.

im sorry your desyncs must be terrible then if you let people just jump over and attack you from behind. Even if he powershields I really doubt he can drop below the platform and upair you before you can do anything else, not to mention you should be upairing him when he lands on the platform, so he'll be getting hit by it anyways

Also lol you said yourself against wario to space with arieals. This isnt effected at all when you dont have nana except for that you cant rack up damage as easily. If your sopo gets beat by a wario that simply walks up to you then reacts... Im not even going to say anything, but really? warios ground game is not good besides his fsmash. It sounds to me more like you being outplayed than the actual matchup :/

I guess it would be the opposite with me but I sill dont see how wario can get past desyncs under a platform

 

[Hylian]

im sorry your desyncs must be terrible then if you let people just jump over and attack you from behind. Even if he powershields I really doubt he can drop below the platform and upair you before you can do anything else, not to mention you should be upairing him when he lands on the platform, so he'll be getting hit by it anyways

Also lol you said yourself against wario to space with arieals. This isnt effected at all when you dont have nana except for that you cant rack up damage as easily. If your sopo gets beat by a wario that simply walks up to you then reacts... Im not even going to say anything, but really? warios ground game is not good besides his fsmash. It sounds to me more like you being outplayed than the actual matchup :/

I guess it would be the opposite with me but I sill dont see how wario can get past desyncs under a platform

Okay, I'm really bad at desynching and this game and I haven't played two of the best warios countless times and I have horrible credentials.

You don't have to believe me lol. I doubt you will ever even have to play a good wario. I'm just telling you things that will happen if you do. Have fun theory crafting.

 

[Teh Future]

lol Im not trying to take anything away from you, you invented ICs metagame and are def. a better player than me but even the best wario cant powershield an upair when he is landing on a platform.

 

[meepxzero]

wario is either even or slightly our advantage. The match is almost the same as DDD vs wario. The only thing we lack in is grab range and having the ability to live a lot longer. What we gain is a better anti air (which is crucial to stop wario from jumping everywhere and air camping) and if we land a grab its death for wario. I wouldnt put lain's ic as a good indicator of the match up because he uses DDD more against warios. So his experience in the match up is kinda not fair to compare.

I mean ive seen old vids of melee1 beating PX but that was probably when PX was bad lol. That man is good without cging, but thats all he is.

I have yet to lose to a wario lately. Ive destroyed malcom's, slikvik, and bmx down here. *pretty much 2 stocked all of them*.

And food for thought u can do two uairs in a single short hop. So just do another uair if they ps ur s hit.

 

[Hylian]

wario is either even or slightly our advantage. The match is almost the same as DDD vs wario. The only thing we lack in is grab range and having the ability to live a lot longer. What we gain is a better anti air (which is crucial to stop wario from jumping everywhere and air camping) and if we land a grab its death for wario. I wouldnt put lain's ic as a good indicator of the match up because he uses DDD more against warios. So his experience in the match up is kinda not fair to compare.

I mean ive seen old vids of melee1 beating PX but that was probably when PX was bad lol. That man is good without cging, but thats all he is.

I have yet to lose to a wario lately. Ive destroyed malcom's, slikvik, and bmx down here. *pretty much 2 stocked all of them*.

And food for thought u can do two uairs in a single short hop. So just do another uair if they ps ur s hit.

Haha PX was HORRIBLE in those vids XD. And none of the warios you listed are good IMO. At all. Ask Slikvik why he won't play wario against me, EVER lol. They pale in comparison to Fiction/PhantomX. Like...not even close.

And PX bans Battlefield against my IC's, not FD because of camping under the platform. Yes it works, but it works better with nair/uair then blizzards was my point. Why wouldn't wario just bike through the blizzards? Blizzard doesn't stop bike.

Just sayin'...wait some for videos, or play PX/Fiction before making a fair assessment on wario. Wario is actually my favorite match-up, because I've played against him so much. Most warios are super super super easy to beat lol.

That doesn't make the match-up even though.

 

[meepxzero]

guess al have to wait to see the vids. I find it hard to believe wario is good against us.

 

[slikvik]

meep 1-1 vs my wario. just sayin

 

[slikvik]

Haha PX was HORRIBLE in those vids XD. And none of the warios you listed are good IMO. At all. Ask Slikvik why he won't play wario against me, EVER lol. They pale in comparison to Fiction/PhantomX. Like...not even close.

i disagree completely. i played px in tourney at apex. i won barely. his wario is really good, but to say its a lot better than mine is mistaken. i also outplaced you by a large margin at apex with my horrible wario. The reason why i wont use wario vs you in tourney is because you know the G&W vs Wario match-up better than i do

edit: fiction is ridiculous though. im incorporating a lot of his gimmicks into my game now

 

[KRDsonic]

Is PX's Wario really that much better than most? I haven't seen many Warios so idk, all I know is that he 2 stocked my ICs in friendlies at the last tourny I went to.

 

[meepxzero]

meep 1-1 vs my wario. just sayin

i mean i beat u pretty convincingly last tourney. And you barely beat me when i couldnt cg at all lol.

you even say ud rather use peach against me.

 

[slikvik]

i got got grabbed too much last set. o well.

peach can float. cant get get grabbed if your floating. she's also pretty good at separating them

 

[meepxzero]

Was just making the point ic do good against wario. And i remember uairing u for over a 100% and just usmashing u. I wanted you to stay in the air so i can rack easy damage.

The only way wario would flat out win against ic is if wario had 5 jumps like mk.

 

[PhantomX]

Slikvik. You did beat me with Peach (who I don't have very much experience with; I've played 5 rounds total with KOSMOS ever) and I DID throw the entire second round, in my defense, lol. I'm not saying you're bad, of course, but I don't really know how you're supposed to evaluate or compare our Warios from that. You're a solid player which leads to the conclusion that your Wario is solid as well (plus you place well with him).

Then to add to that is the fact that I would've had to play Dojo immediately after, which I didn't feel like doing. I didn't go to EC to play two TX players who usually beat me (Razer knocked me into loser's) or force me to have ridiculously intense and draining matches -_-

Oh, and what's important about this discussion is that I'm very likely the only Wario that actually goes offstage (and that I comboed Lain's Nana from 0 into a bite gimp <3). It matters a LOT.

PS: I sucked vs ICs when I played against Melee1.

PPS: Fiction and I share our tricks with each other all the time, and discuss approaches and matchups and ideas and ****. Our tricks are usually mutually invented or perfected (borrowing his gimmicks or mine is essentially the same thing)

PPPS: I split with Tyrant's MK in tournament, the person Fiction lost to, and been told by a couple people that I'm at his level (though I refuse to believe this). I know it's amazing that he beat M2K or whatever, but M2K doesn't really play gay, and you have to play gay to win that matchup.

 

[FrozenHobo]

*cough* what about reflex?

 

[Teh Future]

vids of hylians ICs would be hawt, considering the last time you were recorded(vs ally?) you kept messing up CGs

 

[swordgard]

Ok, im gonna have to agree with meep on this one. Also pivot grab pretty much every aerial wario has? Our ftilt angles upward and uptilt out priorize all of his aerials >.< .

6-4 ics or 5-5 at worst.


Hylian i dont wish to discredit you but frankly it would help if

A) You didnt start then stop playing ics every 2 months

B) You had some very high rankings recently with your ics.


But yeah, il still look out for this stuff you presented today.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i still haven't gotten a response on reflex's wario...

 

[PhantomX]

Reflex is a good player, his Wario is really unorthodox though so it's hard to compare to others.

@swordgard - almost everyone's pivot grabs beat all of Wario's aerials... doesn't mean we're ever going to get caught in them.

 

[Hylian]

Slikvik: Didn't you get 17th to my 25th at Apex? How is that outplacing me by a large margin? That's one placing. I had M2K in my winners bracket, so I forfieted first round hoping for an easier losers bracket. I planned on Afro Thundah beating Holy, but he didn't so I had to play afro thundah really early in losers. And we all know how GW vs Snake is lol.

I don't think you are a bad player by any means, I think you are good lol. I just don't think your wario compares to PX's is all.

vids of hylians ICs would be hawt, considering the last time you were recorded(vs ally?) you kept messing up CGs

Last time I recorded I didn't really play IC's.

I haven't played IC's for a loonnnggg time. I've kept them as a secondary, but rarely used them. Honestly, my IC's now look way different then my old IC's, because I'm putting a lot more work then just practicing CG's lol. I'll try to get some vids up.

Ok, im gonna have to agree with meep on this one. Also pivot grab pretty much every aerial wario has? Our ftilt angles upward and uptilt out priorize all of his aerials >.< .

6-4 ics or 5-5 at worst.


Hylian i dont wish to discredit you but frankly it would help if

A) You didnt start then stop playing ics every 2 months

B) You had some very high rankings recently with your ics.


But yeah, il still look out for this stuff you presented today.

No, feel free to think my IC's are bad. No one here should assume my IC's are good. I haven't proven anything with IC's recently. If you take anything from me take it from me as a player, not because I'm good with IC's. I haven't proven anything with IC's to the extent lain/meep has.

So yeah, don't consider me a top IC player please lol until I start proving myself. I don't want unjustified praise.

About me picking them up and dropping them every two months:

That isn't really true. I mained IC's for about two months total. In those two months I won several tournaments...this was back before I was even in the SBR(now I'm one of the people running it lol). Obviously everyone was a lot worse back then. After houston made the grab limit rule, I started using IC's less and less. I would randomly use them from time to time, but I never got any serious experience with them and I never seriously picked them up again. Right before Cot4 I completly dropped them. Me scaring people with the CG stuff was just so they would make stupid bans against my GW lol.

As of a week or so ago, I main Ice Climbers though. In one week I'm positive I've learned more about how to play this character correctly then I ever knew before .

But please, I'm not trying to impress my opinions on anyone. I just posted some things I learned. Take it how you will. Just keep these things in mind if you ever play PX/Fiction in tournament and they could come in handy.

 

[Teh Future]

Does Texas still use the CG rule?

 

[swordgard]

Fair enough for me. But yeah, ive been playing good warios online so i know that matchup a bit, but offline unfortunatly we dont have that in montreal. We only have stupidly good rob and snakeS (Dom is mad good too = ( ), and a handfull of online players who pop up randomly to destroy the top 8 (FFYF2 was hilarious just for that).




But yeah id like to see more of your ics, since your last videos are from very very very long ago. Will you be going to genesis and use ics thar?

 

[KRDsonic]

Does Texas still use the CG rule?

Xyro got rid of it after HOBO 16, so Ozzfest and HOBO 17 won't have it.

People will finally see how much I suck at chain grabbing :D

... :D