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Fireblaster

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Storrs, Connecticut
It's funny too. Every time I see a non-64 player try out 64, all I hear is ******** and moaning about how they don't have their easy mode yellow stick macro to do everything for them.
 
Kimimaru

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
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CA
I'd consider Melee more technical primarily because the game speed is upped and the window for error on some techniques like ledgedashing, teching, and L-cancelling is less forgiving. Some character-specific tech is also extremely difficult to perform consistently (Ex. Yoshi ECEs).

My main gripe with the Melee community is they have little to no knowledge about characters other than the "top 8." It's astonishing how many players I came across that didn't even knew that Yoshi's double jump has armor and assumed he was dead the second he gets offstage.

Putting that aside, 64 is more technical than most players give it credit for. Even if you're playing a slow character like Jigglypuff, there'll be times you need to do something you can easily mess up, such as the teleport. You have to be on point with your movement otherwise you'll suffer a punish that's often harder than the best of combos in Melee.
 
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KoRoBeNiKi

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
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Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,959
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Brooklyn, NY
Slippi.gg
KORO#668
Kimimaru said:
I'd consider Melee more technical primarily because the game speed is upped and the window for error on some techniques like ledgedashing, teching, and L-cancelling is less forgiving. Some character-specific tech is also extremely difficult to perform consistently (Ex. Yoshi ECEs).

My main gripe with the Melee community is they have little to no knowledge about characters other than the "top 8." It's astonishing how many players I came across that didn't even knew that Yoshi's double jump has armor and assumed he was dead the second he gets offstage.

Putting that aside, 64 is more technical than most players give it credit for. Even if you're playing a slow character like Jigglypuff, there'll be times you need to do something you can easily mess up, such as the teleport. You have to be on point with your movement otherwise you'll suffer a punish that's often harder than the best of combos in Melee.
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This post summarizes it perfectly. Excellent.
 
C

caneut

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
945
Kimimaru said:
Some character-specific tech is also extremely difficult to perform consistently (Ex. Yoshi ECEs).
Click to expand...
I guess that's why no one uses yoshi, he's not top tier.
Kimimaru said:
My main gripe with the Melee community is they have little to no knowledge about characters other than the "top 8."
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Most noobs in 64 only play pika and rat, I guess most noobs in melee only play the top tier as well.
Kimimaru said:
It's astonishing how many players I came across that didn't even knew that Yoshi's double jump has armor and assumed he was dead the second he gets offstage.
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Sounds like nobody knew about that because no one plays yoshi.
Kimimaru said:
You have to be on point with your movement otherwise you'll suffer a punish that's often harder than the best of combos in Melee.
Click to expand...
Yes you have to be more skilled to not be punished easily. Sounds like 64 is more technical.
 
Fireblaster

Fireblaster

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I'm not even saying 64 IS more technical, as that is not a clear cut argument and it would take a lot of backing up to support. I'm just saying that it's stupid to say that melee is miles above 64 in terms of technical skill required, like if 64 is just brawl with combos
 
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KoRoBeNiKi

KoRoBeNiKi

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Slippi.gg
KORO#668
Fireblaster said:
I'm not even saying 64 IS more technical, as that is not a clear cut argument and it would take a lot of backing up to support. I'm just saying that it's stupid to say that melee is miles above 64 in terms of technical skill required, like if 64 is just brawl with combos
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I wouldn't state that 64 is brawl with combos. It obviously isn't from the air movement in the game being much faster and how the ledge is not a factor in terms of camping.
64 is a technical game but I doubt that the top players and most players outside of maybe some Fox/Ness/Yoshi users play nearly as fast/technical as the top spacies in melee. I mean they were calculated at around 290 APM in the fastest Peach game in 2010 (not even including DI.) I mean there is a Fox game from 09 where Axe moves at a 300 APM movement where all aerials are considered to be C-stick movements (outside of n-air) which reduces the inputs anyway.

Silent Wolf hit 374 in a combo video and in a separate video, 66 actions in one 8 second burst (495 apm) in one sequence back in 2007

The fact that Foxes/Falcos are way faster today isn't helping that case either.

I think it is more that Melee has a much bigger limit to what can be achieved but there might not be as big a difference outside of these said technical monsters (Fox/Falco/Peach/maybe Yoshi) when people play each other.
 
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S

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
Han Solo said:
Neutral-b moves in Melee require more precision than neutral-b moves in this game because of the existence of side-b.
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Which is why side B moves were a terrible idea.
I wouldn`t say they require more 'precision', simply because of that. 64 requires way more precision, everything just slides in Melee.
That last sentence was probably a vague dig at Melee rather than a point, but I think this desire to compare to fundamentally different games is pretty silly. Melee isn`t a sequel, it`s a different game, for a different engine, on a different console, with a different controller AND input scheme. I wish for the day when no one ever mentions Melee on these hallowed 64 grounds.
 
S

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
807
KoRoBeNiKi said:
I wouldn't state that 64 is brawl with combos.
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Why do these sentences always sound like they are from someone without a concept of the linear flow of time?"I wouldn`t say that Super Mario Kart is like Double Dash with only one driver per car."
"I wouldn`t say that Super Mario Land is like Super Mario 3 without world map."
"I wouldn`t say that carriages are like cars without engines."
SSB is the gold standard. It`s Die Hard 1, 2, 3 and 4, because none of these other games are in the same series. You can make the Melee to Brawl comparison, sure, but those games have **** all resemblance to 64.
 
S

Studstill

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Messages
807
Triple, only because Solo is allegedly really good right?
"Pikachu's completely horizontal/vertical up-b" "Fastfall Uairing"
You think these are difficult? Really? This is what happens when you start calling "timing a button press" a "technique".
Kimi, right on on almost every count, although I think the line between 'difficult' and 'technical' is a little thicker than you imply.
 
Cobrevolution

Cobrevolution

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studstill, you can't comment on any techniques because you don't perform any.

i'll tell you what - go on stream and try pika's double vertical upb. let's see how many times you get it in an hour. or luigi's sh dair ff uair. or mario sh dair uair.

deal?
 
kyletree

kyletree

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
66
Cobrevolution said:
studstill, you can't comment on any techniques because you don't perform any.

i'll tell you what - go on stream and try pika's double vertical upb. let's see how many times you get it in an hour. or luigi's sh dair ff uair. or mario sh dair uair.

deal?
Click to expand...

are these techs supposed to be hard????

lmao god you suck

anyway

i've been hearing about this double vertical up b with pika lately, right?

for so long i thought that this tech was considered near impossible and that no human could ever do it

but then i realized i am kero the great not some little punk ***** who backs down to hard techniques

as THE 64 pika main

ya know the second best pika in the country and the one who will eventually be the BEST in the world

i feel that mastering this technique is not only my responsibility but my destiny

i WILL be the pika to master it

with this tech i will shatter through what is currently considered the pika meta

don't underestimate the power of kero the great fgts

having said all this, i am a lazy bum and have never looked into this technique

so i don't know what buttons to press or anything

someone pls tell me how the double vertical up b is performed and i will have it mastered within the week

(it usually would take me one night but i have to drive back from college tn and don't know when i'll be able to play)

ok jabronies that's all i came to say

ty and **** you

-kero the great

ps rob is bad
 
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Cobrevolution

Cobrevolution

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Messages
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as soon as i saw the four exclamation points i knew it would be kero

also kero's sticks are such **** that he wouldn't be able to double upb anyway so gg
 
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<Fruity>

<Fruity>

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
165
Location
Barcelona
kyletree said:
are these techs supposed to be hard????
someone pls tell me how the double vertical up b is performed and i will have it mastered within the week
Click to expand...

"Pikachu can do his upb twice vertically. To do this, for the second part of the upb, you have to tilt precisely “60 units” in a cardinal direction. 60 units (on Mupen64) is the threshold where the game recognizes your tilt as a second input to the upb but does not register the new direction. Any less and the second upb won’t happen".

Good luck!
 
S

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
807
BananaBolts said:
Can Kirby's up-b be used as a combo finisher at the edge of a stage WITHOUT the risk of smash DI back onstage to tech?
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Sure. I mean, you have the window being very small (1F?) and max DI only goes so far. Also the pop up hits alternate from 80 and 100 degrees, so sometimes it`s out of your control, where they aer on the down hit.
Is this what you were looking for? I feel like ou were asking something different, kinda?
 
BananaBolts

BananaBolts

I find you quite appealing
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Studstill said:
Sure. I mean, you have the window being very small (1F?) and max DI only goes so far. Also the pop up hits alternate from 80 and 100 degrees, so sometimes it`s out of your control, where they aer on the down hit.
Is this what you were looking for? I feel like ou were asking something different, kinda?
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I'm sure you can control the 80-100 degree angle. It's probably just a matter of landing the hitbox consistently. I was just wondering if the player being combo'd could smash DI and land onstage if Kirby performed the up-b next to the stage's ledge but he wasn't in the kirbycide range. Basically, the no-DI combo would leave Kirby onstage and his foe's stock would be lost to a spike.

A question for everyone: How much DI is humanly possible on a single frame of hit duration? This is directed specifically at spikes. I suppose another question would be: Is there an increased hitlag duration (or smash DI window) at higher percents?

EDIT: I've been doing some testing and I can confirm that I suck at testing.
 
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S

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
BananaBolts said:
I'm sure you can control the 80-100 degree angle.
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No, I meant the hitboxes literally alternate (framebyframe for 8 frames) with an 80 degree trajectory on odd frames and 100 degree on the evens.
If you are modulating the joystick correctly during the up B (or doing nothing after hitting up B), then you should be able to hit on either easily. The problem on connecting the hit usually comes when you are getting 80-100% movement and you simply move slightly too far out of range.
What do you mean by kirbycide in this context?
 
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