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ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
I guess my attraction towards determinism comes from my dismissal of free will's existence. Most of my life I've never really believed it to be true and I've never heard a good argument that proves it, or even suggests that it could be likely.
Seems backwards to me. Basic experience seems to indicate that free will exists. It's only the fact that nonliving objects are so predictable that makes determinism reasonable.

Also, "hidden variables" interpretations of quantum mechanics have generally been discarded by most physicists AFAIK. Not an expert but I think there have been some experiments that cast the idea of "local hidden variables" in doubt: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Quantum_realm (see the part about "hidden variables").

I'm uncertain about whether I believe in the uncertainty principle...
Well that would be going against the established theories of physics (and it's backed up by lots of evidence) ...
 

pidgezero_one

((((((((((( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) gotta go fast!
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,458
Location
Toronto
NNID
pidgezero_one
3DS FC
3222-5601-4071
Do you happen to have legal photo ID to prove you're Pidge Kirbynoob? Not going to be able to let you into the premises without one.
Legal photo id? Play vs my kirby, it's all the proof you need
 

pidgezero_one

((((((((((( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) gotta go fast!
Joined
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Messages
4,458
Location
Toronto
NNID
pidgezero_one
3DS FC
3222-5601-4071
[02:43:23] * YBOMBB was kicked by YBOMBB (YBOMBB)

[02:43:27] <!moonbase> LOL

[02:44:44] * YBOMBB (~YBOMBB@199.119.qwh.upi) has joined #ssb64

[02:44:44] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao YBOMBB YBOMBB

[02:44:44] <gallant> look what you did ybombb

[02:45:27] <!YBOMBB> shut up u goofus gallant

[02:45:27] <gallant> shut up you troll

[02:45:39] <!YBOMBB> don't make me ban u

[02:45:53] <!moonbase> LOOLLOL

[02:46:10] <!moonbase> bomb arguing with a bot

[02:46:15] <!moonbase> this is the best day of my life
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
2-12 is contained in 1-12.

The fact that 1 occurs with probability 0 is an example of the point I was making (how you make your random choice affects the probabilities).
So why doesn't it choose between rolling -infinity to +infinity with all numbers other than the natural numbers including and between 2-12 having a probability of 0? I don't think you can say that one exists in the set with a probability of 0, for it to exist it then has a probability. Its defined by the number of occurrences of the element divided by the total number of elements in the set. The probability of a 2 is 1/36 because the outcome of 2 only occurs once out of the 36 possible outcomes while 7 occurs six times out of 36 so its probability is 1/6. 1 however, doesn't exist within the set of outcomes and so its not that it has a probability of 0 its probability is null/undefined. If you asked the set whats the probability of 2 it would say "1/36". If you asked it whats the probability of 1 it wouldn't say "0/36", it would say "what the **** is a 1?"

Sets of dice and outcome set


Dice 1|Dice 2|Outcome
1|1|2
2|2|3
3|3|3
4|4|4
5|5|4
6|6|4
||5
||5
||5
||5
||6
||6
||6
||6
||6
||7
||7
||7
||7
||7
||7
||8
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||9
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||11
||12

Dice 1 and Dice 2 know what the hell a 1 is, but 1 is lost in the function of the addition property and so the outcome set never has a 1 and so thinking as the outcome set I ask "What the **** is a 1?"

Now I could be wrong on this because the probability and statistics class I took was 3 years ago, but I remember thinking that nothing can ever be 0. For something to be 0 it must exist but not exist, so its either asymptotically 0 or is null/undefined. To say a probability is 0 then you have either calculated the probability wrong or you are not handling the set you think you are and are not thinking within the scope of the set you believe to be talking about. Its like applying the think therefore I am mentality to the set. If the set can suggest 1 is a probability of 0 then it has created a paradox, because now that the 1 exists within the scope of the set it can no longer be 0. It thought of a 1 so there now is a 1, its probability may be so incredibly low it approaches 0 but it can't be a 0. Unfortunately, given the conditions and using the defined addition operation, it is impossible for 1 to exist in the outcome set so it is impossible to consider its probability when discussing the outcomes from the view of the set itself.

You can't make something out of nothing, 1s will never appear randomly out of nowhere in a set that doesn't have them, therefore the universe is deterministic.
 
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ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
So why doesn't it choose between rolling -infinity to +infinity with all numbers other than the natural numbers including and between 2-12 having a probability of 0? I don't think you can say that one exists in the set with a probability of 0, for it to exist it then has a probability. Its defined by the number of occurrences of the element divided by the total number of elements in the set. The probability of a 2 is 1/36 because the outcome of 2 only occurs once out of the 36 possible outcomes while 7 occurs six times out of 36 so its probability is 1/6. 1 however, doesn't exist within the set of outcomes and so its not that it has a probability of 0 its probability is null/undefined. If you asked the set whats the probability of 2 it would say "1/36". If you asked it whats the probability of 1 it wouldn't say "0/36", it would say "what the **** is a 1?"
It just depends on how you define your range of outcomes. Saying something occurs with probability 0 is perfectly coherent. Probability is defined on a probability space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_space) which includes a sample space, a set of events (subsets of the sample space), and a probability function on the events. For rolling dice if we define the sample space as 2-12 then that works fine, but yes we can also define it as 1-12, -5 to 48, all integers, etc. with everything outside of 2-12 having probability 0. These are all valid probability spaces for rolling a 12 sided die.

At the end of the day the only point I was making is that if you're trying to pick a number between 1-12, how you do your "random choice" matters - rolling a d12 is going to give different probabilities from rolling two d6s, or rolling a d20 and taking the remainder modulo 12 or rolling a single d6 and doubling the result, etc.
 

NovaSmash

Banned via Administration
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Dec 28, 2009
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Marietta, Ga
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Last edited:

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
At the end of the day the only point I was making is that if you're trying to pick a number between 1-12, how you do your "random choice" matters - rolling a d12 is going to give different probabilities from rolling two d6s, or rolling a d20 and taking the remainder modulo 12 or rolling a single d6 and doubling the result, etc.
Thanks, ballin. I believe the alternate point here was that the word/phrase 'random' or 'RNG' are really awfully misused, usually?
 

Vale

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
945
I just tried to play forum-based mafia/werewolf.

highlights include a vanilla town killing themselves to advance the game to lylo followed by scum killing themselves and using a lynch blocking power to win the game instantly after the first misvote.

like, i don't know how town didn't think "oh well scum would want to put the lynch stopper in power and that person isn't getting night killed so the person must be scum"
 

T Brett

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
241
Location
Vancouver, BC
I just tried to play forum-based mafia/werewolf.

highlights include a vanilla town killing themselves to advance the game to lylo followed by scum killing themselves and using a lynch blocking power to win the game instantly after the first misvote.

like, i don't know how town didn't think "oh well scum would want to put the lynch stopper in power and that person isn't getting night killed so the person must be scum"
Man you are so baked right now
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,005
Location
Isle of ゆぅ
i sent a letter with fancy ****
included with that thing where you burn the wax to make the seal
it's p cool

if this were the middle ages, I would think the letter would be travelling the sea, escaping lamias and djinns, crossing mountains, carried through the desert by a wagon pulled by a melancholic black man

but no, i can even track the thing while I sit my ass on a looney tunes themed pillow
 

THE_MAAFIA

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
832
Location
Philadelphia, PA
So... I plan on going to Apex, I'm 16, And I'm gonna bring my little brother, He's 13 (will be 14 by the time the tournament starts) aaand I have my little cousin that loves watching competitive smash come, he's 12 and not at a competitive level at all (coming for the fun and to meet some professional smashers), We're gonna be the freshest youngsters there lol
 

KeroKeroppi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
2,060
Location
New York
So... I plan on going to Apex, I'm 16, And I'm gonna bring my little brother, He's 13 (will be 14 by the time the tournament starts) aaand I have my little cousin that loves watching competitive smash come, he's 12 and not at a competitive level at all (coming for the fun and to meet some professional smashers), We're gonna be the freshest youngsters there lol
my little brother and cousin are going to apex too!

we should do a 3 v 3 :bee:
 
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