I'm not saying that your points are invalid because of that or anything, just that I'm sorry for being so disrespectful towards them...
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Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!
- Thread starter craiigg
- Start date
KnitePhox
Smash Lord
uh oh, hope the thread doesn't close now!
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
this thread will never die lol
B Link
Smash Lord
I need to start taking some American Pol courses so that I can get in on this discussion. No one talks about Canadian Pol with me here =(
And iCanadian politics isn't boring, I swear: We have this dude named Harper who is actually somewhat of a boss
And iCanadian politics isn't boring, I swear: We have this dude named Harper who is actually somewhat of a boss
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Ask yourself if you really wanna "get in on this discussion".
B Link
Smash Lord
Yeah I would. I live in Canada so I can do comparative politics which is sick, unlike USA people who just talk about US politics and are MISSING OUT
TANK64
Smash Lord
Life is good.
After a small vacation and then getting sick after getting back (2 weeks off the gym), I'm back to slightly better than my prime already just after one split
.
I'll probably be able to make that 300 lbs max vid, by next week (/not even ambitious).
This stack is too good. Already getting SIZE; I swear I have the best genetics.
Preworkout tier list:
S
Black powder (Might be better or worse than assault. I can probably tell on my next split)
Assault (Makes me feel great and gives me energy, tastes delicious)
A
SAAs (Seriously a TOP TIER preworkout by itself, natural non-stimulant energy, and Incredible stamina. Probably S tier, I have to try it again. ***** BCAAs)
Jack3D (Middle of the road. If you're feeling meh, it would def help pick you up and focus)
All other capsule preworkouty stuff/BCAAs, etc...
F
1MR (Actually negatively affects my training, and tastes like dog ****.)
(....worse supplement in the history of science?)
This day has been so dank
After a small vacation and then getting sick after getting back (2 weeks off the gym), I'm back to slightly better than my prime already just after one split
.I'll probably be able to make that 300 lbs max vid, by next week (/not even ambitious).
This stack is too good. Already getting SIZE; I swear I have the best genetics.
Preworkout tier list:
S
Black powder (Might be better or worse than assault. I can probably tell on my next split)
Assault (Makes me feel great and gives me energy, tastes delicious)
A
SAAs (Seriously a TOP TIER preworkout by itself, natural non-stimulant energy, and Incredible stamina. Probably S tier, I have to try it again. ***** BCAAs)
Jack3D (Middle of the road. If you're feeling meh, it would def help pick you up and focus)
All other capsule preworkouty stuff/BCAAs, etc...
F
1MR (Actually negatively affects my training, and tastes like dog ****.)
(....worse supplement in the history of science?)
This day has been so dank
This lol.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
It's the fan girls - when I log on to youtube insight like 25% of my views are from Japanese girls
I don't think any of my scenarios have been irrelevant at all (drawn primarily from historical examples and actual situations). I suppose that is an issue with nebulous statements - that what is "contained within common-sense limits" might be different for you and I. But that's why I'm trying to figure out what exactly the limits are on your statement. Overall though, on matters of what is right, good, and just, I don't think you can just say "well I know it when I see it". Principles are important.
I think what you're trying to say on one of my points is "people ought to vote unless something REALLY important comes up" - but who decides what is "REALLY important" besides the individual? You're free to think that person is an idiot, but calling it a "duty" to vote has larger implications. Encouraging voting definitely shouldn't trump personal freedom. But I think you're good on this since you said you don't believe in forcing people to vote.
I'm also pointing out that due to the mathematics of voting the threshold for "more important than voting" is actually pretty low IF you're someone who only cares about the end result (the laws that get made).
So I think you've been reduced to "well people should consider the democratic process to be super important, not just the end result". I outlined a few issues I have with this statement in my previous post about democracy, of course, but even besides those I don't think that's super realistic...
I don't understand your example here as it is clear in that particular case. (Although it is kinda funny that you pick something that is clearly just a personal opinion as your example.) BTW even in your example you could just say "IMO hot dogs made out of non-rotting beef are good - and that's what I meant by hot dog btw". It's pretty easy to dismiss truly irrelevant conditions in this manner.
Generally though, it might help if you actually addressed some of the points I made (what if I dislike all candidates? what if a politician does something really bad later on? what if I have important things to do? what if I don't feel educated on the issues? - btw I like how you dodged the point about how telling everyone that it's a "duty" for them to vote may actually harm the democratic process by encouraging uninformed voting)
So let's review - you claimed "it's a civic duty to vote and you can't complain about laws if you don't vote". I gave several reasons why one might not want to vote and asked if it was a civic duty to vote and whether one should be able to complain in each of those cases. You basically said "my statement doesn't apply in those cases" but you still seem to be arguing with me about something. I just don't really know what.
It applies to many of the ridiculous blanket statements that people make about right and wrong, yes. Then you come up with some qualifications and eventually we find agreement. Unless you can't come up with qualifications ... in which case you have something to think about.
****ing sweet avatar. I rocked the watchmen symbol for a while back in the DAY
You brought up a bunch of side points, I addressed them, and now you wonder what we're arguing about? We're arguing about whether people who don't vote have the right to complain about those laws which they could have participated in the making of. Like we have been from the start.
to recap, since you seem to have forgotten:
-If you don't like any of the candidates at all, pick the best one. If they're all so bad that you honestly don't care about the differences between them, you have the right to complain about GENERAL screwedness but not about those things which you could have voted against.
-It doesn't matter whether your vote will make a difference. It almost certainly won't. The idea is that encouraging people to vote on an individual level helps out on a national level when it's done on a societal scale.
-If they're uninformed enough that they truly feel they'd hurt the country by voting and that they don't have any opinions on any issues, they won't be complaining about politics anyways.
-If you have super important things to do, then do them. As long as you generally participate in the system, missing one or two votes isn't a huge deal. No one's saying you should prioritize voting over like, your mother's life.
Now that we've re-addressed these (frankly rather nitpicky) issues, do you still think people who refuse to vote have a right to ***** and moan about the things they never take action against?
You brought up a bunch of side points, I addressed them, and now you wonder what we're arguing about? We're arguing about whether people who don't vote have the right to complain about those laws which they could have participated in the making of. Like we have been from the start.
to recap, since you seem to have forgotten:
-If you don't like any of the candidates at all, pick the best one. If they're all so bad that you honestly don't care about the differences between them, you have the right to complain about GENERAL screwedness but not about those things which you could have voted against.
-It doesn't matter whether your vote will make a difference. It almost certainly won't. The idea is that encouraging people to vote on an individual level helps out on a national level when it's done on a societal scale.
-If they're uninformed enough that they truly feel they'd hurt the country by voting and that they don't have any opinions on any issues, they won't be complaining about politics anyways.
-If you have super important things to do, then do them. As long as you generally participate in the system, missing one or two votes isn't a huge deal. No one's saying you should prioritize voting over like, your mother's life.
Now that we've re-addressed these (frankly rather nitpicky) issues, do you still think people who refuse to vote have a right to ***** and moan about the things they never take action against?
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
So i can not vote, have my reason as "the whole thing is ****ed up" and be leigt?
Sure you can not vote for whatever reason and I don't really care. You just don't get to complain about the things you could have helped to change with your vote. If you really don't see a difference between the ****ty candidates then by all means don't vote, but don't complain about the policies you could've helped to change.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
I've tried to avoid jumping into this, but it's almost impossible.
Ok, so how can you say i can't complain about the policies if i feel none of the candidates would help or change anything...or could perhaps make said situation worse?
And what about not voting as a sort of "boycott" against a huge issue someone may see in the system as a whole?
Ok, so how can you say i can't complain about the policies if i feel none of the candidates would help or change anything...or could perhaps make said situation worse?
And what about not voting as a sort of "boycott" against a huge issue someone may see in the system as a whole?
Like I said, you can't complain about any of the policies That you could have helped to change. If your problems are so deep and systemic that no candidate will do anything to alleviate them, by all means, complain away.
Not voting as a boycott is stupid. A boycott is a way to make yourself heard, and not voting to make yourself heard is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. But if you see problems with the system so great that you don't think a vote in any direction would improve them, sure, don't vote.
Not voting as a boycott is stupid. A boycott is a way to make yourself heard, and not voting to make yourself heard is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. But if you see problems with the system so great that you don't think a vote in any direction would improve them, sure, don't vote.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Obviously you wouldn't only not vote.
Either way you've answered all my questions, thank you.
Either way you've answered all my questions, thank you.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
I thought it was clever
I still don't see voting as "participating in the making" of laws. Just because it MAY help society out if everyone agrees to vote that doesn't mean that an individual vote counts as "participating" in making laws if it won't affect the outcome.
Again, what if I can't vote for candidate A due to position X and I can't vote for candidate B due to position Y? According to you I can still complain about X when candidate A is elected, right?
Still not convinced of this point, but even if is the case that more people voting is better, I don't see the connection between "yeah it would be great if everyone voted" and "you can't complain if you didn't vote". If you're just saying that people should encourage others to vote then I really have no problem with that, as I said before. But it sounds to me like what you're really coming down to then is not "You can't complain if you didn't vote" but really "Society would be better off if many people adopted the viewpoint that you can't complain if you didn't vote", which is a pretty different statement.
Let's say I don't feel like I can make an informed decision between candidate X and candidate Y, so I don't vote. Then later on candidate X signs a bill to raise taxes/institute warrantless wiretapping/regulate the internet. I really can't complain about that?
Ok, but you know there will be cases where we disagree on whether person X should have voted or not. I say the best arbiter of the right thing for person X to do in those cases is person X. You're within your rights to disagree with person X's decision, but to really crucify them for it shows a lack of respect for liberty.
Of course they have that right (gotta be careful with those words bro). I might find it silly. But if it's the case that the cost of trying to take action outweighs the benefits of taking action then it's perfectly reasonable. In the case of voting, the cost may be fairly minor in the grand scheme but the benefit to the individual is extremely small.
AtotheZ
Smash Lord
Which lift?Life is good.
After a small vacation and then getting sick after getting back (2 weeks off the gym), I'm back to slightly better than my prime already just after one split
I'll probably be able to make that 300 lbs max vid, by next week (/not even ambitious).
prisonchild
Smash Ace
just curious, but have any of you guys ever considered signing up for the smashboards mentoring program? i saw king funk was the only one who signed up and i'm guessing that was a while ago.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
my mom apparently did some BCAAs before her karate workout today. looks like my mom has a better preworkout stack than I do.
WOTG
Banned via Warnings
I think im gonna mostly play Euros from now on, too many laggers and weirdos from NA
Frogles
Smash Ace
choosing to play in 4+ frames most of the time
yeah you're the weirdo
yeah you're the weirdo
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Most of us are
WOTG
Banned via Warnings
Less laggers, less WEIRDOS, and more willing to p2p. Yep sounds like a better choice
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
playing weridos is the best part
clubbadubba
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Messages
- 4,086
been gone a while, just caught up on this voting thing. And the winner is.....................
ballin.
Voting is just one of the few ways you can change things in this country, and quite frankly is probably the least significant thing you can do as an individual. Petitioning, writing to your representative, joining or just writing to certain activist groups. Even complaining about things can be just as if not more effective than actually voting. The more people that complain, the more the issue is brought up by the media, and the more politicians feel like they have to take action.
I vote, and people should vote if they believe one choice is better than the other. But when things go wrong in between election years, of course everyone has a right to complain. In fact, it says so right in the constitution: right to freedom of speech and right to petition (which is pretty analogous to complaining). I must have missed the part where you have to vote to keep those rights. And yea, it was designed that way for a reason. The founding fathers (who I understand aren't infallible, but designed a pretty effective government) didn't care if every single person voted. But they did want to give everyone an opportunity to bring attention to the problems they faced every day. That means everyone, not just those who have time to keep up with politics.
Also ballin's taking arguments to the extreme and seeing if they still make sense is super legit.
ballin.
Voting is just one of the few ways you can change things in this country, and quite frankly is probably the least significant thing you can do as an individual. Petitioning, writing to your representative, joining or just writing to certain activist groups. Even complaining about things can be just as if not more effective than actually voting. The more people that complain, the more the issue is brought up by the media, and the more politicians feel like they have to take action.
I vote, and people should vote if they believe one choice is better than the other. But when things go wrong in between election years, of course everyone has a right to complain. In fact, it says so right in the constitution: right to freedom of speech and right to petition (which is pretty analogous to complaining). I must have missed the part where you have to vote to keep those rights. And yea, it was designed that way for a reason. The founding fathers (who I understand aren't infallible, but designed a pretty effective government) didn't care if every single person voted. But they did want to give everyone an opportunity to bring attention to the problems they faced every day. That means everyone, not just those who have time to keep up with politics.
Also ballin's taking arguments to the extreme and seeing if they still make sense is super legit.
Yawn
It would be a matter of free speech if I were recommending that they be legally barred from complaining
"Not allowed to complain" in the same sense that you're not allowed to criticize big government and then receive kajillion dollar subsidies. People CAN do it, they just suck and we hate them.
Petitioning and what not are a lot less effective than voting and take more time for the results they do bring, so the rest of your arguments pretty much suck too.
It would be a matter of free speech if I were recommending that they be legally barred from complaining
"Not allowed to complain" in the same sense that you're not allowed to criticize big government and then receive kajillion dollar subsidies. People CAN do it, they just suck and we hate them.
Petitioning and what not are a lot less effective than voting and take more time for the results they do bring, so the rest of your arguments pretty much suck too.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
This is pretty rich coming from the guy who endorses camping on Hyrule
clubbadubba
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Messages
- 4,086
wrong. so the rest of your arguments pretty much suck too
asianaussie
Smash Hero
so tl;dr
battlecow is bad at arguing and hyrule is neutral-worthy? ok
battlecow is bad at arguing and hyrule is neutral-worthy? ok
ballin4life
Smash Hero
You claim "Hyrule sucks due to camping" and then you camp on Hyrule.
To be clear, I don't think there's anything hypocritical about that but it is analogous to being against subsidies generally while simultaneously taking advantage of subsidies.
That'd make sense if it wasn't for the fact that I lobby to ban hyrule while farmers lobby to keep and/or increase their subsidies. No one grudgingly accepts the money while wishing they didn't have to.
Clubba--A petition is a certain number of people asking a guy to consider doing something for them. A vote is a certain number of people deciding what to do. Voting on something > petitioning someone to accomplish that something. SIMPLE.
Clubba--A petition is a certain number of people asking a guy to consider doing something for them. A vote is a certain number of people deciding what to do. Voting on something > petitioning someone to accomplish that something. SIMPLE.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Someone who disagrees with subsidies trying to get subsidies is exactly like you camping on Hyrule. Gaming a system that you don't agree with.
What do you want them to do? Just sit back while competitors get subsidized? Decline the opportunity to get free money?
It sounds like that's what you're saying - "if you dislike subsidies so much then stop trying to get subsidies". That's exactly like me telling you "if you dislike Hyrule camping so much then stop trying to camp on Hyrule".
prisonchild
Smash Ace
i'm not joining the argument, just stopped by to say that hyrule is an awesome stage and if you don't like camping, there's nobody forcing you to so don't camp.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
prisonchild I am for all intense and porpoises anti-ban, but that's a bad argument. If you're gonna feed Battlecow make it good
Combo Blaze
Smash Ace
I love hyrule, because peruuuuuuuuu
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
ness still sucks on hyrule
KnitePhox
Smash Lord
if everyone just stopped camping everyone would have more fun and we could play any stage
world isn't perfect boo hoo, there'll always be ****ing ******s that camp so whatever...just have to try and NOT play against them
world isn't perfect boo hoo, there'll always be ****ing ******s that camp so whatever...just have to try and NOT play against them
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Yes...
Did you answer the question I posed to you? No you didn't ... I wonder why.
Please explain how they're hypocritical and you're not.
As I said, I don't think either is hypocritical.
But you're being a hypocrite by condemning them as hypocrites.