Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[Sensei]

Ness is the most useless character in life.

 

[dch111]

Nah, for example you can use him for a quick n easy Halloween costume.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ness sucks in brawl. All you need to do is pick marth and grab him, then infinite grab release him into a down-smash at killing percents. Free win. And Marth isn't even his worst matchup. GaW can bucket all of Ness's projectiles while using Bair to out-range all of Ness's attacks. lol at edgeguarding Ness with the bucket

The worst overall characters in all the smash games are Ness and Link in my opinion, since they suck in all three lol.

 

[Xivii]

minus grab releases

Ness sucks in brawl. All you need to do is pick marth and grab him, then infinite grab release him into a down-smash at killing percents. Free win. And Marth isn't even his worst matchup. GaW can bucket all of Ness's projectiles while using Bair to out-range all of Ness's attacks. lol at edgeguarding Ness with the bucket

The worst overall characters in all the smash games are Ness and Link in my opinion, since they suck in all three lol.

Psh that's the only thing. And Link ***** in melee.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Link's decent in melee, but terrible in 64 and brawl. Ness is bad in 64, terrible in melee, and bad in brawl. They are both overall bad.

 

[NixxxoN]

Link's decent in melee, but quite bad in 64 and terrible in brawl. Ness is bad in 64, terrible in melee, and bad in brawl. They are both overall bad.

fixed

10char

 

[asianaussie]

Link's decent in melee, perfectly viable competitively in 64 and terrible in brawl. Ness is bad in 64, terrible in melee, and bad in brawl. They are both overall bad.

Fixed again.

 

[The Star King]

Oh noes here goes the Link wars.

 

[earthadept]

Link is waaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than Ness in brawl. Link is so bad in brawl it shouldn't be legal.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Anyone else find it funny that Link and Ganon are the bottom two characters in brawl? Link, the hero of time, is trying to defeat Ganon, the lord of evil. According to the brawl tier list, they are dead even, making the fight extremely close, with Link barely coming through in the end. However, they are so bad that if either one of them asked for help from anyone, they would instantly win (e.g. Link: "Hey Mario, can you give me a hand for a sec?"). So what, is the entire Legend of Zelda series based on a terrible hero who ends up fighting an even worse final boss, but both are so bad that the fight ends up being even? Oh, and don't even get me started on Sheik...

Brawl logic FTL

 

[Xivii]

If Link had some recovery in brawl he would be great but they completely screwed that up. Now he shouldn't even be considered apart of the game. I still think he ***** in melee and is alright in 64 however.

 

[earthadept]

I like him a lot more in 64 than in melee. His recovery is terrible in 64, but so is everyone else's (minus pika). In most cases if you go off the stage you should die, so especially on a stage like Hyrule, recovery isnt super important in 64. Not like brawl lmao, or to some extent meleeee

 

[hamburglar]

In most cases if you go off the stage you should die, so especially on a stage like Hyrule, recovery isnt super important in 64.

WHA!?



this is completely wrong. depending on character and stage opponent ect, for every time i die off stage on average i would bet i make it back to the ledge at least one or two times. Saying recovery isn't important is just plain ignorant.

 

[DMoogle]

I hate Falcon's up-smash about 10x more than Kirby's up-tilt.

 

[Superstar]

WHA!?



this is completely wrong. depending on character and stage opponent ect, for every time i die off stage on average i would bet i make it back to the ledge at least one or two times. Saying recovery isn't important is just plain ignorant.

Recovery isn't important.

(For most characters, unless your opponent is just bad)

 

[dch111]

Recovery isn't important.

(For most characters, unless your opponent is just bad)

It's important in preventing yourself from getting gimped. Most of the time that Link gets gimped any other character (except sometimes Falcon or Ness) would have made it back.

 

[Superstar]

If you're gimping Link, you're usually doing it with a dair...that **** will work on nearly anyone.

And, other than that, its a ridiculous blanket statement.

 

[hamburglar]

i still disagree, i take recovery to be pretty important. maybe not compared to z canceling or djc but if you can't space/maneuver a recovery attempt effectively it's going to severely effect your defense game. Also, ledge and reverse edgegaurd di make recovering from off the ledge a lot more realistic in some situations.


furthermore, if you practice different recovery techniques for each character your return to the stage is less predictable and increases the chances of success.


IMO

 

[earthadept]

I hate Falcon's up-smash about 10x more than Kirby's up-tilt.

Cant up tilt outta shield!

I mainly use falcon and am constantly surprised by its insane range/priority... It never ceases to amaze.

And concerning recovery... it's definitely a factor in the match... I was exaggerating. But still, unless you're Pika I basically view any returning to the stage as an error on your opponent's part.

 

[dch111]

If you're gimping Link, you're usually doing it with a dair...that **** will work on nearly anyone.

And, other than that, its a ridiculous blanket statement.

I'm talking about bthrow to edgeguard. Many characters can drop further to sweetspot, but Link's limited recovery distance limits his options or cuts them off altogether. It totally makes a difference, and recovery is important. Otherwise people wouldn't bother with all those recovery techs.

(For most characters, unless your opponent is just bad)

You're forgetting that recovery isn't just about coming back while your opponent is edgeguarding--a good long recovery also means you can go off the edge to edgeguard farther, and also that your combos have further options off the edge.

 

[hamburglar]

You're forgetting that recovery isn't just about coming back while your opponent is edgeguarding--a good long recovery also means you can go off the edge to edgeguard farther, and also that your combos have further options off the edge.

agreed. this has come in handy a few times against a ness or fox who is pretty far off the stage when i'm weegee

 

[Superstar]

i still disagree, i take recovery to be pretty important. maybe not compared to z canceling or djc but if you can't space/maneuver a recovery attempt effectively it's going to severely effect your defense game. Also, ledge and reverse edgegaurd di make recovering from off the ledge a lot more realistic in some situations.

1) You can't compare recovering to ATs.
2) Most characters are easily edgeguarded, that's the thing, you can't "space" it.
3) Once you catch the ledge its a different ball game, in general we're talking about off-stage.

furthermore, if you practice different recovery techniques for each character your return to the stage is less predictable and increases the chances of success.

furthermore, if you practice different edgeguarding techniques for each character stopping their return to the stage is less predictable and increases the chances of success.

That's basically the problem. As Sheer says, its way too easy to edgeguard in this game.

Not to mention, most characters don't have much they can do to "increase their chance of success" while coming back. Most characters have options the other way around.

IMO

IMO doesn't change anything, we're talking about facts.

I'm talking about bthrow to edgeguard. Many characters can drop further to sweetspot, but Link's limited recovery distance limits his options or cuts them off altogether. It totally makes a difference, and recovery is important. Otherwise people wouldn't bother with all those recovery techs.

Elaborate, you mean someone threw Link off with a bthrow? Or Link threw someone off with a bthrow? If its the earlier, remember you said that if Link won't make it back it back, others will. First of all, if it goes past their recovery range, they won't make it back either, and second, there are times where Link makes it back due to his UpBs speed + priority that other characters won't make it back either (more than Falcon/Ness). That's why I said it was a blanket statement.

Also, it really does not follow...I don't see how you get from "Other characters have slight more options" to "This means recovery is important". Probably because that "most characters will get edgeguarded anyways" hidden somewhere in the middle. I couldn't think of how to debunk it because it really doesn't logically fit.

You're forgetting that recovery isn't just about coming back while your opponent is edgeguarding--a good long recovery also means you can go off the edge to edgeguard farther, and also that your combos have further options off the edge.

This is a different argument altogether, we're talking recovery/edgeguard junk. And if you want to bring it to Link, he edgeguards more than fine despite his short distance.

EDIT: You don't even have to leave the stage to edgeguard. Especially not for Ness...

 

[hamburglar]

i wasn't trying to compare recovery to the importance of AT's, just that players shouldn't write them off

as far as spacing i guess i just mean spacing jumps appropriately in order to sweet spot the edge.



"furthermore, if you practice different edge guarding techniques for each character stopping their return to the stage is less predictable and increases the chances of success."

agreed completely, the edge guarder is always going to have a significant advantage but i feel having a solid arsenal of approaching "techniques" (using the term loosely) pays off every now and again.


and yea it's all my opinion. personal opinion. i'll start prefacing everything with "from my experience" or "i feel that"

"IMO doesn't change anything, we're talking about facts."


no we aren't.... nothing in your post regarding this is provable...silly

 

[Deleted member]

Link vs Ness is pretty even

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

anyone who thinks that recovery means nothing...take a look at pikachu or Link, imagine if everyone had pikachu or link's recovery. Fox would take over the top of the tier list if he had a better recovery than pikachu.

Lets see, both of them have a 70-30 matchup. Both of them have 4 ++ matchups. Pikachu has dumb priority while Fox has by far the best projectiles of probably any smash game. The only difference is that one of them has a horrible recovery.

 

[Superstar]

Whether or not its provable doesn't change the fact its not opinion based.

@Koro - Pikachu is practically the exception to the recovery thing. A few other characters have some slight chance of making it back, but seriously, overall the edgeguarder will get the recoverer in a vast number of situations in the majority of matchups.

Trying to list em off: Falcon, Link (rarely gets a shot), Ness, and Fox are nearly negligible. DK, Samus, Jiggs have some shot. Mario and Yoshi's are decent (some times you can't do anything). Pikachu is god. Luigi and Kirby I hear conflicting junk. (may be wrong in some characters, I don't main all of them, this is what I've observed).

I'm exaggerating in the side of you might as well drop, I'm certain, but its really not that far off.

Actually, if everyone had Link's recovery, the game wouldn't change too much...cept around Pikachu. Combos would obviously change as a result but I'm assuming they're even.

EDIT: Wait, actually, a lot of characters would benefit from Link's recovery, as far as recoveries go its great, you just don't get too many shots.

 

[hamburglar]

Whether or not its provable doesn't change the fact its not opinion based.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

yes it does....quit not making sense...

 

[Superstar]

Its not provable because we can't get the data because of how small we are, not because it CAN'T be proven.

And if we want to go to that definition, I assume whether or not God exists is an opinion? While you're free to believe what you want, God DOES or DOES NOT exist, and there's no "it can be both" at all. Something tells me there's something deeply...deeply wrong with that definition.

The only opinion based it gets to is the definition of what "a lot" means. Either way, your arguments were wrong, in the vast majority of cases you CAN'T space your recovery, at least not to the degree to confuse the edgeguarder. Very few recoveries lets you do this.

 

[dch111]

If its the earlier, remember you said that if Link won't make it back it back, others will. First of all, if it goes past their recovery range, they won't make it back either, and second, there are times where Link makes it back due to his UpBs speed + priority that other characters won't make it back either (more than Falcon/Ness). That's why I said it was a blanket statement.

Of course they won't make it back if it goes past their recovery range. I'm saying the same back throw that kills Link automatically at many low percentages usually won't kill others because they have longer recoveries either allowing them to survive or, for the times they both can make it, giving them more options to delay or drop farther to mess with edgeguard timing. Exceptions include Ness, who has range, but suffers from predictability, a slow second jump, and poor third jump ending-priority coupled with lag, and Falcon, who suffers from low upB priority (but a superior second jump). There are times, sure, where Link has a good recovery chance, but those are few and far in between.

Also, it really does not follow...I don't see how you get from "Other characters have slight more options" to "This means recovery is important". Probably because that "most characters will get edgeguarded anyways" hidden somewhere in the middle. I couldn't think of how to debunk it because it really doesn't logically fit.

More options = more unpredictability = the difference between getting hit with the edgeguard and losing a stock or not = recovery is important. "Most characters will get edgeguarded anyways" is true, but "most characters will die from the edgeguard" is not true. Not even in theory because an optimal edgeguarder still has to guess, for example, when exactly you're going for the sweetspot to respond with their attack at the right time (with Link this guessing is easier since his "just try to make it to the ledge as soon as possible" option is usually his only option due to his short upB range). I don't know how to better explain it to you, but if you look at games between players of even the highest level, there are many points at which the recoverer should not have made it back had the edgeguarder chosen a certain edgeguard at a certain time. But you can not (not even with optimal play) always edgeguard correctly and this is because of the multiple options characters with good recoveries have (even just two options reduces guard success to a 50/50 chance). There is no one edgeguard done at one time that covers all the bases. And don't just think about third jumps being attackable or having lag...don't forget Link's second jump is rather poor, too (combined with his being a fastfaller). Otherwise how would Jigglypuff's recovery be better than Links? Her floatiness and rising pound make her sail above enemy's heads. People who don't know good recovery techniques are at a significant disadvantage.

EDIT: You don't even have to leave the stage to edgeguard. Especially not for Ness...

For good edgeguarding, this is wrong in several ways. Part of the reason Ness's recovery is so bad is because it's easy to go off the edge to edgeguard him when he's close. Otherwise you can't stop his 3rd jump from getting far into the stage. If you're talking about Ness doing the edgeguarding, the dair spike definitely requires that you go off the edge (otherwise they sweetspot which even with Dsmash is difficult to realistically prevent). Part of the ease of good edgeguarding involves the ease of going off the edge to edgeguard. A smash attack on the edge doesn't do it all (unless you're pika, and not even then).

If we've only been talking about recovering against Pikachu all along, then I retract my statements and say recovery isn't important. But I'm pretty sure we're talking about recovery in this game in general, which is important, since stock games revolve around staying alive.

 

[hamburglar]

Either way, your arguments were wrong, in the vast majority of cases you CAN'T space your recovery, at least not to the degree to confuse the edgeguarder. Very few recoveries lets you do this.

in your opinion?

 

[Sensei]

If you play super "gay"/defensively with link, nobody can really approach him, especially if you try to cover all their approach options with all your projectiles AND your attacks. The only characters that are less affected by these strategies are ones that rival links projectile spam (fox, mario, link) and small/fast characters that can dodge the projectiles (pikachu and fox and maybe kirby). I don't even count falcon because he is a big target and gets hits by flying objects all day like 2012, especially if the player is super aggressive. Link > Ness because Ness can't approach if link spams and plays defensively. Link's recovery is not a issue if you control the center of the stage. Link should be higher on whatever the current tier list should be. I think in Link vs. Falcon, falcon has a slight advantage if he plays smart against a smart spammy link. So yea, the only characters better than link are pikachu, fox, mario, falcon, and kirby LOL. Link is ****. I learned to be really gay with him when I started using kb and couldn't rely on my tech skill and had to rely on really good spacing, playing smart, and spam haha.

Edit: Forgot to mention, links sword priority in the air really helps him too. Link is too good.

 

[dch111]

Link's pretty good on Hyrule and some stages. You have to play super efficiently though.

Trying to list em off: Falcon, Link (rarely gets a shot), Ness, and Fox are nearly negligible. DK, Samus, Jiggs have some shot. Mario and Yoshi's are decent (some times you can't do anything). Pikachu is god. Luigi and Kirby I hear conflicting junk. (may be wrong in some characters, I don't main all of them, this is what I've observed).

Fox's is better than the previous three. He can always overshoot and fastfall to sweetspot. Works wonders against players of all levels. Tiger did this against Isai's pikachu for christ sakes, and Isai's pikachu is probably the ultimate edgeguarding machine. Also, angled upB recovery to sweetspot is possible. In any case only those four have really lousy recoveries that are easily edgeguarded. I don't see a majority here.

I'm exaggerating in the side of you might as well drop, I'm certain, but its really not that far off.

No, it's pretty far off. Good recoveries have saved players' lives countless numbers of times. Always worth trying. Even if the edgeguard is a guaranteed hit with a single Fsmash, there's always DI into the ledge or reversal-ledge DI. I'm not saying you shouldn't play well on stage and not get hit off, but saying recovery isn't important is pretty ignorant. Players make mistakes all the time, get knocked off, have to return. No one plays flawlessly. If Link or any other character with poor recovery makes a mistake, they get punished much harder. This kind of thing accumulates. Simple and obvious. Shouldn't just be hamburgler, koro, and me the only ones reacting to such an absurdity.

Actually, if everyone had Link's recovery, the game wouldn't change too much...cept around Pikachu. Combos would obviously change as a result but I'm assuming they're even.

EDIT: Wait, actually, a lot of characters would benefit from Link's recovery, as far as recoveries go its great, you just don't get too many shots.

You've got to be ****ting me. Except maybe Ness, no characters would benefit from having Link's recovery over their own. Recovery isn't just the upB attack--it's the entire suite of qualities that enable a character to return. That includes their second jump and falling speed, both of which Link suck at (poor 2nd jump height, fast falling speed). How do you think Puff's recovery is good? Rising pound + floatiness. In fact the characters with recoveries as bad as Link's are also fastfallers (Ness being special case).

 

[Frogles]

so today i found out galaxy 64 has a ping limit

 

[ciaza]

Wow, were you trying to connect from Mars? Haha jks, I'm in australia and connect easily so I thought everyone could get in.

 

[Lovage]

DJ LOVAGE has the chat room on lock

 

[MattNF]

who the hell kept playing rap music

 

[Superstar]

I mentioned "some shot" for some chars, not "good shot". 3+4 = 7. That's more than half the cast. The rest have a better shot, but, eh, it depends. Sometimes Yoshi is good, sometimes Yoshi is lol.

Also, BTW, Jiggs recovery isn't good. Only when recovering high.

No, really, Link's recovery is good when it comes to safety. Its actually good. The thing that's bad is that you can throw him and he'll die, where other characters will make it back because you're not there to edgeguard them (unless you threw next to the edge at mid percents...you'll edgeguard them).

Not really in the mood to argue everything point by point. Seriously.

@ham: And no, not "in my opinion". You can't space unless you're recovering high, whcih is where nearly everyone makes it from. Hell, except for Pikachu, the thought of spacing is pretty...absurd.

 

[hamburglar]

i disagree with you. idk, whatever works for me i guess. i usually have a decent rate of countering edgeguarding attempts and that is what i'm basing my opinion on. i have a better recovery rate from below as well since i have a hard time sweet spotting the edge from above without getting hit first. varying approaches helps in my case and the spacing and timing of jumps usually effects my success rate. i'm sure your experiences may say differently but that's how i've always viewed recovery and i guess until i continually get denied from the ledge i'll keep putting some thought into a recovery game.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox's recovery doesn't suck if you recover high

if you recover low you can sort of trick them, it's barely better than Falcons

 

[dch111]

I mentioned "some shot" for some chars, not "good shot". 3+4 = 7. That's more than half the cast. The rest have a better shot, but, eh, it depends. Sometimes Yoshi is good, sometimes Yoshi is lol.

"some shot" does not equal bad shot. If you meant bad shot, then Samus and Jiggs shouldn't be included. There shouldn't be some vague "eh, it depends" if you're thinking about this seriously (then again, if you were thinking seriously you wouldn't say "recovery isn't important"). An average recovery for most doesn't mean a bad recovery for most.

Also, BTW, Jiggs recovery isn't good. Only when recovering high.

It's not great but it's above average. Jigg's floatiness and rising pound turn most medium recoveries into "high recoveries", whereas Link getting thrown the same distance would result in him effectively trying to go for a low recovery. I still think you're not getting the importance of falling speed factored in. Otherwise Samus's recovery would be bad as well.

No, really, Link's recovery is good when it comes to safety. Its actually good. The thing that's bad is that you can throw him and he'll die, where other characters will make it back because you're not there to edgeguard them (unless you threw next to the edge at mid percents...you'll edgeguard them).

You're only thinking of upB again. I'm talking about the whole idea of returning to the stage after getting knocked off it. And you ignored my point about how infrequently Link's upB is actually better compared to how many times it is worse. It's safe, sure, but it doesn't go far enough, and ultimately doesn't save as many lives. Other characters will make it back even if you edgeguard...you completely ignored most of my posts about countering and getting around edgeguards.

We don't see people getting guaranteed deaths every time they get knocked off the edge. At ANY level of play. Going with your idea that good edgeguarding should prevent anyone from coming back totally contradicts the many videos of high level players where recoverers often DO come back. And if you think high level players aren't good edgeguarders, then I don't know why I'm even discussing this with you.

Not really in the mood to argue everything point by point. Seriously.

You're just taking the few points you find weak and responding to them, then conveniently disregarding the rest as "too long; didn't read". The point is, "recovery isn't important" is a ridiculous statement and you know it.

@ham: And no, not "in my opinion". You can't space unless you're recovering high, whcih is where nearly everyone makes it from. Hell, except for Pikachu, the thought of spacing is pretty...absurd.

Okay, maybe you just don't know how to recover at all. You probably just wait until you're in range of the sweetspot, and then go for it and get owned. Or maybe you only play Link all the time, who doesn't really have a choice but to do that. If you're a good player, you'll realize there's more options than that (again unless you're Link). Note: Ness has huge spacing options, but his recovery is bad because is slow and predictable from any position, no matter how you space, fastfall, or sweetspot it.

You act like edgeguarding is infallible at stopping recoveries. This viewpoint is dead wrong and I doubt anyone but you is going to say otherwise (unless we're talking Ness/Falcon). Hell, there's a whole article on SmashWiki dedicated to countering edgeguards (though they are missing a good deal, you get the point that recovery is serious business, not some joke).

If you meant that recovery isn't important in comparison to say, avoiding and landing hits, then I totally agree with you. But you've got to admit making blanket statements like "recovery isn't important" is just silly