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[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Hell yeah boi

Would you rather have Alfendi in his Natural. personality or his Hyponotized one? Personally, Id rather they stick to his natural personality

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not really a part of this Pokemon debate; I didn't know every Pokemon game before now had a full pokedex and assumed that some had been cut since Black/White. When the news that not all pokemon would be in this one my reaction was, "...yeah, duh?"

But I've been on the side wanting to enjoy a game and being told I shouldn't. Or worse, that I'm a part of the problem because I dare enjoy something I want to enjoy. It doesn't feel good. At all.



Guys, don't be those kinds of people.

Yeah, forcing people to like or dislike something isn’t cool.

It’s just a game, not the fate of the world. Let people enjoy whatever they want.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Maybe y'all have passed the point in this discussion where this is relevant, but to help myself get a little perspective on the amount of work it to make all these pokemon, I estimated the number of pokemon animations in USUM and cross compared it to an estimate of the number of monster/boss animations in DQXI (which I'm familiar enough with to make some reasonable heuristics). I don't claim that raw animation count is an indicator of the amount of work done, nor do I claim that the amount of work needed addresses all these complaints, but numbers are always nice to have, so I figured I'd save people the ~20 minutes of research I spent finding these numbers.
I counted about 900 unique pokemon models (counting Alolan forms, megas, and a few other alternate forms that I figured needed seperate animations). I assume each of these have 4 or 5 different animations, but it's been a while so please correct me if I'm wrong on that. That would give us a total of 3600 ~ 4500 animations.
For DQXI, I counted 129 unique monsters and bosses, but I'll round that up to 130 since I'm not super confident in that number and round numbers are nice. With a rather small random sampling of different monsters, I got roughly 10 animations per monster (low of 7, high of 12, but I have reasons to believe the lower numbers aren't particularly good). That would give us ~1300 animations.
Again, there's a lot of other factors at play here, so don't think these numbers necessarily mean much (I personally don't know enough to make an informed stance on the matter), but there they are if it helps anyone.

I don't know enough about game design, I can only speculate based on what GameFreak has done. They future proofed the models*, presumably to make sure something like this did not happen--they could re-use the models and animations, so that they're only adding to it. Perhaps that assumption was wrong, or there were factors they didn't take into consideration that made doing that unviable, but it goes against the core of how some people play the games. For some, it's catching 'em all, for me it's catching my favorites. This decision is reasonable for those who like Pokemon for the story, for primarily the new Pokemon, or for the battling mechanics. That's great for them, and regardless Pokemon will sell well.

I think it's important for people to voice their concerns--the only issue is some are taking it to a whole other level, simply being toxic, which makes this conversation more difficult, and why outside of this I'm trying to avoid it. As for me, I haven't had the handhelds since the Gameboy Advance, was looking forward to playing Pokemon on console, and now I'm reconsidering it** because the "improved graphics and animations" is certainly not worth losing my favorite Pokemon. I'll be fine losing Pokemon once the animations look as good as the trailers (i.e., never happening).

*I've heard in the past that this may be a misnomer, that it's some other aspect that is future proofed, but the point remains the same.
** I'm re-considering getting it myself, though my partner in the Netherlands, a huge Pokemon fan, thinks I'm silly and said he might get it for me if I'm not.

 

[Deleted member]

But yeah, John Krasinski and Emily Blunt are perfect for Reed Richards and Susan Storm.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I like to imagine Layton told Alfendi all his life since childhood to watch his mouth and once he got to adulthood, Layton gave up and let him be the potty mouth he is now pff

 

[Strong Badam]

Game Freak just strikes me as a lazy company, or at least a company that only continues to make Pokemon games due to a contractual obligation which no longer has any passion for the franchise.

I hate to bring something up from a few pages ago but this is bar none of the saddest things to read as a game developer. I've personally worked 60 hours+ per week for months at a time on a project to ensure it comes to fruition only to be called "lazy," by a playerbase because of entirely unreasonable expectations on the part of gamers. I wish there was better education on what it takes to build out a game so that gamers would have more empathy when things need to be cut in order to release on time.

To properly re-topograph, rig, and animate attack animations for these characters to fit the quality bar that they've set on the team would take an obcene amount of time. And important to note is that this is a part of the pipeline; it can't be done in a vacuum. After that work is done, VFX artists and sound designers can get to work on those Pokemon, so that adds more time. Like, they could totally do it, but the game would release in like, late 2020 or early 2021 instead, and whether or not it's actually an effective use of resources comes heavily into question. Ignoring the actual cost of production vs sales of Sword/Shield, by that point the Switch's lifespan would be closer to over, and they'd have to do this same song and dance for the next game on the next console to meet a higher bar of quality. The demand that every single Pokemon be in each new game is a massive burden any time they want to improve the quality of their models and would make it happen far less often. They did it for Pokemon X/Y, but now there's like 200+ more Pokemon and they were probably having 3D modelers work on those while the rest of the team was at work on Pokemon Black/White 2. I totally understand being bummed out (I'm sure some of my favorite Pokemon will be absent from this entry) but it's super dejecting to see this lack of empathy from gamers on this issue.

 

[staindgrey]

But yeah, John Krasinski and Emily Blunt are perfect for Reed Richards and Susan Storm.

Yeah, bring that married chemistry into the roles. I like it.

The new Fantastic Four needs to be a family film, just as much a comedy as a superhero movie. We don't need another gritty reboot or an origin story. Everyone ****ing knows who the FF are already.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, bring that married chemistry into the roles. I like it.

The new Fantastic Four needs to be a family film, just as much a comedy as a superhero movie. We don't need another gritty reboot or an origin story. Everyone ****ing knows who the FF are already.

Hopefully they go all out on the special effects like Doctor Strange.

The F4 comics were known for the amazing design of the locations or action scenes of their pages.

 

[Wademan94]

The new Fantastic Four needs to be a family film, just as much a comedy as a superhero movie. We don't need another gritty reboot or an origin story. Everyone ****ing knows who the FF are already.

But have the Four actually fighting this time aside from just Doctor Doom

 

[Deleted member]

Arrrgh I'm breaking my promise
I'm changing my avatar because I want to

 

[staindgrey]

But have the Four actually fighting this time aside from just Doctor Doom

I'd argue don't even show Doom in the first film.

Give them a cosmic level situation. Take them off planet. Something. Tease at Doom or mention him, but save him for a big bad and a prolonged presence. Don't rush him into the first film just to lose within the first 2hr film.

 

[Iridium]

Every time I see a Sw/Sh debate anywhere, I'm reminded of how much some people really don't seem to understand what it's like being a game developer in the first place.

 

[Wademan94]

I'd argue don't even show Doom in the first film.

Give them a cosmic level situation. Take them off planet. Something. Tease at Doom or mention him, but save him for a big bad and a prolonged presence. Don't rush him into the first film just to lose within the first 2hr film.

Actually, how about a Doctor Doom solo film?

Maybe that could be the origin story instead. Like sprinkle some of the origins of the F4 here and there so you get the general idea but the movie focuses on Doom’s fall to villainy and rise to power?

 

[staindgrey]

Actually, how about a Doctor Doom solo film?

Maybe that could be the origin story instead. Like sprinkle some of the origins of the F4 here and there so you get the general idea but the movie focuses on Doom’s fall to villainy and rise to power?

It could be a fantastic political commentary if done right. A sleeper hit like what Black Panther ended up being.

I don't think Disney would do it though. Hard to sell Dr. Doom toys. But I like the idea.

 

[Cosmic77]

Spoiler: Huge post

I mean, the idea of "Just rolling over and taking it" isn't ideal either. In fact, it's arguably one of the de-facto worst mindsets to have as a consumer, because it means you'll let a company get away with a bad business practice and still defend them for it.


Do you know why people voice complaints? Because they know things can be better.


I don't think 'anyone' liked the mission structure in Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon, and it's BECAUSE people hated on it that the Devs themselves looked at discussion forums, saw the hate and realized "Maybe we shouldn't do this next time.", which, mind you, they themselves admit it's due to us, the fans. People could have just said "Yeah, I don't like the mission structure but at least we got a new game...." in a defeatist way, and LM3 could have had Missions again, but they didn't, they let their voice be heard, and the devs listened. If you don't like something, don't be afraid to speak out. You have a voice, you can and should voice your displeasure.



Mario Maker 2's another great example. No online friend co-op? **** no that's awful, and Nintendo listened. We're probably going to get it now, which adds replay-ability and fun to a great looking game.



And again, Ultimate. It'll never happen again, but Sakurai looked at what the fans wanted, and delivered. We'd never get every.single.character back with characters like Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo were it not for the fans more or less saying "We want this in Smash." The next Smash will never be able to repeat what Ultimate did, but that's fine, it's a once in a lifetime thing.



No one should just "Accept" or "Be grateful" for a product being pushed out if it doesn't meet their demands, we have a voice, we're allowed to use it, and judging by Nintendo's current events, they 'do' actually care about what we have to say. Look at what happened with Chibi Robo. Nintendo shoehorned out a subpar game, and despite the fans knowing it'd probably kill the series, they told Nintendo "No, this isn't what we want." People could have just rolled over and said "At least Chibi Robo got a game..." But fans spoke very loud to Nintendo that "No, we don't want this, we deserve better than a hastily **** out game."



Do I 'care' about Sword/Shield's controversy?

No, not really. I haven't been in love with Pokemon for a long time and wasn't going to get it anyway.(I don't even HAVE a Switch)


But this "We should be grateful that corporate is pumping out a yearly game" attitude is piss poor. "Rolling over and letting corporate have its way with you" is one of the worst attitudes to have as a consumer. Nintendo, Gamefreak, etc are not your friends. They're businesses who put business, and money, first. They don't care about you, they care about lining their pockets. Stop defending businesses for bad business practices, they're not your friend.


Sword and Shield will sell millions, this is an undeniable fact, the worst selling mainline Pokemon game sold 14 million ****ing copies, but their lack of communication with the community, unlike Nintendo between constant Directs and the developers giving us updates on games, is appalling. If they want to nurture a healthy relationship with the community, they need to be less transparent. They need to say "This is our roadmap, here's what to expect." Pokemon has gotten to a point where they realize that they're too big to fail; this fan backlash is a wakeup call for them to realize "Maybe we should try to talk with our fans for a change instead of just expecting them to buy our new game because it's a new game."


Trust me when I say, if they had actually gone into detail about the fact that "Not every Pokemon will be in SwSd" and added a "but here's out 5 year plan", I guarantee you that the backlash would be MUCH less severe, because fans would understand what the hell to expect instead of fearing their favorites are gone for god knows how many years. As is? We know nothing because they've basically SAID nothing. We don't know what Pokemon are gone and when they'll even BE back, and this lack of transparency can only be blamed on Gamefreak, no one else. Now of all times they should make a statement to try to calm fans fears, but they've done nothing and have hoped this will blow over, which, I'm sorry that is a ****ty move and a blatant spit in the face of the fans which have genuine concerns going forward.

Because I assure you, no, this isn't going to blow over, it's Pokemon, you literally can't show us new **** aside from new Pokemon, and the more new Pokemon that you show us, the angrier people are going to get. The new mechanic that they had hoped would become the next big thing, Dynamaxing, basically fizzled out completely. What else is there? A couple pretty locations you'll go to once and never again? There is no "They'll forget when they see new stuff", because the only new stuff to show is Pokemon, and all that's going to do is breed more "Wow, cool Pokemon. Shame I can't use it on a team with my other favorites." Even JAPAN is pissed about this. JAPAN! They almost never see eye to eye with us on stuff like this, and yet they're just as pissed, if not MORE.


Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

So basically, "Game Freak isn't listening to their fans and this was a lazy decision, but the games will still do really well regardless, which makes us furious. It probably won't make a difference, but we'll complain as much as we have to if it means stopping something completely inevitable from happening in this game. If we don't get what we want, then we'll boycott the game, hope for the worst, and pray that Game Freak gets what's coming to them for making this game completely unplayable."

I don't care if I'm in the minority, nor do I care if people consider it blind love for me to cut Game Freak some slack.

Yes, as a consumer, you do have a right to voice your opinion about Game Freak's terrible decisions, and boy, there are quite a few of them. But this? Even if they ported every single Pokemon and gave us a National Dex (which is something that probably could've been accomplished if they really tried), this problem was going to reappear eventually. They can't keep reusing assets indefinitely, and there will come a time when creating every Pokemon from near-scratch would be a laughably bad way to spend development time. So as far as I'm concerned, Game Freak decided not to kick the can any longer and bite the bullet now instead of later. Fans were destined to complain, if not in this Gen, then in the Gen that finally did it. It all basically comes down to wanting this to happen later instead of in Sword and Shield.

People have made their opinions very very clear, but long-term, there's not really a solution to this. Fans will get over this eventually, and that's because they don't really have a choice. It's no secret that Sakurai probably won't be able to bring back every character for the next Smash game regardless of how much he may want to, but fans would likely be more understanding because of how hard he's worked in the past. Game Freak is in an almost identical situation, but people refuse to show them any leeway because of their past decisions. They'll do everything they can to make it seem like these two scenarios are vastly different, but they're not. They never will be, yet it'll always be deemed acceptable to scream and kick Game Freak in the face for not cramming in the extensive list of things fans want within a two-year window and give us a game with BotW quality.

That's what annoys me more than anything else.

 

[Slime Master]

I don't know enough about game design, I can only speculate based on what GameFreak has done. They future proofed the models*, presumably to make sure something like this did not happen--they could re-use the models and animations, so that they're only adding to it. Perhaps that assumption was wrong, or there were factors they didn't take into consideration that made doing that unviable, but it goes against the core of how some people play the games. For some, it's catching 'em all, for me it's catching my favorites. This decision is reasonable for those who like Pokemon for the story, for primarily the new Pokemon, or for the battling mechanics. That's great for them, and regardless Pokemon will sell well.

I think it's important for people to voice their concerns--the only issue is some are taking it to a whole other level, simply being toxic, which makes this conversation more difficult, and why outside of this I'm trying to avoid it. As for me, I haven't had the handhelds since the Gameboy Advance, was looking forward to playing Pokemon on console, and now I'm reconsidering it** because the "improved graphics and animations" is certainly not worth losing my favorite Pokemon. I'll be fine losing Pokemon once the animations look as good as the trailers (i.e., never happening).

*I've heard in the past that this may be a misnomer, that it's some other aspect that is future proofed, but the point remains the same.
** I'm re-considering getting it myself, though my partner in the Netherlands, a huge Pokemon fan, thinks I'm silly and said he might get it for me if I'm not.

Yeah, things like this are why I riddled my post with disclaimers and why I don't really want to take a side on this debate. I don't know if current models can be easily ported to the switch. I don't know enough about 3D animation to know what might constitute an animation that takes more work. I don't even know if modeling an animating is really the bottleneck for porting pokemon (though I can't think of what else it might be). And even if it is unreasonable to assume gamefreak could make every pokemon work in the timeframe they had, I don't know that means we still shouldn't complain.

I guess I just like numbers is all.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't "future proof" models. You can make high-poly models that are of good enough quality that you don't have to start from scratch next time, but 1. you still have to retopograph them down into lower-poly assets that are usable in-game based on the power of that generation of consoles every time, re-rig them, make textures/UV maps based on that specific version, and 2. eventually the industry's standards will increase such that you have to re-model them. A high-poly model 10 years ago compared to one today are still way different.

Creating a high-poly model that you have no intention of putting in the game is standard practice at most companies, btw, it's really confusing to try to make a game-ready asset from the get-go. Making a high-poly one and then trimming it down to something that meets certain criteria is more reasonable.

 

[Deleted member]

You see, this is why we can have nice things

 

[Deleted member]

-snip-
You see, this is why we can have nice things

I still prefer the version that mixed the Smash remix with the Overture theme from DQ.

But this is also good, ngl.

 

[staindgrey]

On another note.

God damn am I excited for Gears 5. I can't believe they hired Alex ****ing Ross for this sick promotional art.

I want it so bad, guys.

 

[Deleted member]

On another note.

God damn am I excited for Gears 5. I can't believe they hired Alex ****ing Ross for this sick promotional art.

I want it so bad, guys.

I would pick it if I had a Xbox, ngl.

 

[staindgrey]

I would pick it if I had a Xbox, ngl.

It'll be on PC too.

Though I assume the minimum specs will be pretty high.

 

[Deleted member]

It'll be on PC too.

Though I assume the minimum specs will be pretty high.

Oh, then hopefully I can do something regarding that.

Btw, this is the cover I mentioned Goth about:

 

[CosmicQuark]

Yeah, things like this are why I riddled my post with disclaimers and why I don't really want to take a side on this debate. I don't know if current models can be easily ported to the switch. I don't know enough about 3D animation to know what might constitute an animation that takes more work. I don't even know if modeling an animating is really the bottleneck for porting pokemon (though I can't think of what else it might be). And even if it is unreasonable to assume gamefreak could make every pokemon work in the timeframe they had, I don't know that means we still shouldn't complain.

I guess I just like numbers is all.

The numbers are staggering, and while I didn't know the numbers of animations (which are crazy in comparison), just the number of Pokemon has, in the past, made me confused as to how they do it.

I feel like if they messaged it better, there would have been much less blow back. Perhaps not wait until E3 to mention or allude to it, be very clear on the onset the reasons why it didn't work and their design philosophy, putting out a list of all the returning Pokemon in the Galar region--while unprecedented, I believe, I feel like it would have been a consolation for their decision, which was no easy decision.

Which is why I feel like Gamefreak does deserve some of the blowback their getting, just not the levels of toxicity that has come out of it (which is why I also put disclaimers, despite my criticisms, ultimately I don't care enough to be upset by it, and last time I talked about it I wasn't aware of the toxicity). People shouldn't be calling Gamefreak lazy devs (substituting "unambitious" or "not creative" works), shouldn't be taking it out on the fans of the series who still want the game. If people want to, criticize the decision, not the people--don't buy the game, but don't expect others to share the same view. It's that simple.

 

[Z25]

Who’s ready for the barbecue?

 

[Wademan94]

It could be a fantastic political commentary if done right. A sleeper hit like what Black Panther ended up being.

I don't think Disney would do it though. Hard to sell Dr. Doom toys. But I like the idea.

Of course that’d be taken into consideration, still would be a fun idea and I feel like if any other villain aside from Venom should get a solo film, it’d be Doom.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

On another note.

God damn am I excited for Gears 5. I can't believe they hired Alex ****ing Ross for this sick promotional art.

I want it so bad, guys.

No knowledge of the series, but that art is something else.

 

[Will]

Hard to sell Dr. Doom toys

oh dude remember back in 2002 when spider-man water launchers came out

just make those but they shoot little yellow plastic discs like those nerf guns and call it their gauntlets

 

[staindgrey]

No knowledge of the series, but that art is something else.

It's by Alex Ross, the guy known for realistic hand-painted DC/Marvel comic book covers.

Look up his work sometime. He's great.

 

[Will]

Oh, then hopefully I can do something regarding that.

Btw, this is the cover I mentioned Goth about:

Honestly this is better than the Spiral Mountain theme itself.

I don't know, just those chimes near the end is what that theme could've used to be a lot better.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

What if Nintendo changed their mascot from Miis to Animal Crossing villagers

 

[staindgrey]

Gonna splurge about Gears for a second because I'm no longer really a presence on the Gears forums (way too toxic) and I need an outlet.

Putting it in a spoiler in case no one cares.

Spoiler: Grey's Gears Rant

• I love the new main character designs and how they're going back to Gears 1/2 style armor, rather than the exposed arms/cargo pants look in Gears 3/4.
• I also appreciate that the epitome of a dudebro series has chosen to make its sole remaining female protagonist its lead. The series has come a long way from explaining that there were no playable female characters because they were all "busy having babies". Now we have Kait front and center on the box art. Can't wait to hear Laura Bailey in the role.
• I want to know why they used three random-*** Gears for the Escape trailer. Gears 4 for whatever reason added a whole bunch of nameless random characters and people ate them up in online multiplayer. I really hope they aren't filling gaps with more nameless random-*** people but I'm pretty sure they are. That said, Escape looks tight.
• I love that the game legitimately seems different from what we've seen so far. They've preached that they're done playing it safe with the formula and I trust Rod Ferguson when he says that. I want to get in that beta and play it, because Gears 4 felt so satisfying but it was really just the Gears 2/3 formula perfected.
• There better not be a ****ing ****ton of microtransactions again or so help me God I will... only buy a couple and complain again. But even the stuff you earn in game got so ****ing tedious.
  
  Spoiler

  > Open the store
  > move past two promotional tabs to get to the purchase page
  > select your pack
  > move your cursor down from real money to in-game currency
  > purchase
  > click okay
  > move cursor off of "open" to cancel if you want to buy more packs
  > repeat as necessary
  > finally open the packs, one by one, each with an unskippable animation and individual flipping cards with a loud metal-on-metal sound effect
  > finally finish and have an annoying orange "new" icon on your inventory until you scroll through Bounties, Characters, Skins, Emblems and Horde abilities to find every. single. one. (even when they're duplicates)
  > open each duplicate
  > scroll down to "scrap duplicates"
  > confirm "okay"
  > another unskippable animation
  > rinse repeat until all duplicates are gone and you gained like 100 scrap towards the card you actually wanted this whole damn time, which obviously costs way more than 100 scrap
  They better not do that again or I won't care about my progress this time.
• Horde better have less ability grind and more strategy focus.
• Can we get Capture the Leader back? That mode was awesome.
• Anya better be a multiplayer character or I riot.

 

[Will]

What if Nintendo changed their mascot from Miis to Animal Crossing villagers

they barely use the miis for anything anymore and it makes me sad

just give me wii sports switch miyamoto you ****

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I've felt depressed and anxious for the past 48 hours and I'm not entirely sure why.

Emotions are a royal pain.

 

[Gyrom8]

What if Nintendo changed their mascot from Miis to Animal Crossing villagers

But Mario's their Mascot; it's "It's a-me" not "It's a Mii"

 

[Will]

But Mario's their Mascot; it's "It's a-me" not "It's a Mii"

It's a mii Mario.

 

[Deleted member]

GUYS
THERE WERE UNUSED SPIRITS FROM BLAST CORPS AND JET FORCE GEMINI IN SSBU
WE MIGHT BE GETTING THEM BACK WITH BANJO

 

[Will]

GUYS
THERE WERE UNUSED SPIRITS FROM BLAST CORPS AND JET FORCE GEMINI IN SSBU
WE MIGHT BE GETTING THEM BACK WITH BANJO

its banjo spirits not rare spirits

we didnt get any persona 3/4 spirits now did we

 

[Deleted member]

its banjo spirits not rare spirits

we didnt get any persona 3/4 spirits now did we

shhhhhh
there's still hope

 

[Mega Bidoof]

its banjo spirits not rare spirits

we didnt get any persona 3/4 spirits now did we

Just Joker is not enough of a precedent to go off of. With the large catalog of character Rare (let alone Microsoft) has, and the unused data for Rare spirits, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them when Banjo comes out.

If The Hero comes with just DQ spirits we can say it’s very likely the DLC characters will only have spirits from their series (although they probably would add more Final Fantasy spirits if the didn’t have trouble getting the rights to the designs, as we can see in Cloud only having his Smash artwork), and if Banjo comes without them we can say it’s confirmed.

It’s similar to how after Joker everyone was saying the characters will only be from new third party series not in Smash. It would be quick to jump on that right after Joker, but after seeing The Hero and Banjo-Kazooie it’s a much safer bet.