So what's with the hate for Echo Fighters?

[Rexxgrim]

So I have a circle of friends that all are interested in Smash - Anywhere from "I main Fox in Melee, fight me it's the best Smash game" dedicated too "I just want too have something in a fighting game that I think is a tad more entertaining than other fighting games" dedicated - And a running theme among them is the dislike for Echo Fighters. I originally just brushed this off yet when I asked them about it - All I got was a "I think it is un-creative and lazy of Nintendo"

Then I started looking up around online and I see people in general display a sense of negativity toward Echo fighters. Now I do know that one negative voice will be heard before a thousand positive ones but I just wanted too ask here what you; the Smash players of SmashBoards thinks about Echo Fighters.

Personally I don't see the issue - Some characters just are too identical by default and making them "different" than their counterpart may just end up making the character feel "off" in a way + If the fighter's are as good as similar, they will be easier too balance in the long run for competitive reasons.

Should people just not be happy that a character got an "alternate" version that is another character? They may be pretty much identical too another fighter but unless you absolutely DETEST the character's move set - I don't really see the issue. Like if you LOVE Daisy but HATE Peach's move set then yeah sure I get that but it can't be that many people who fits into that narrow slot; not enough for the general outcry too be as loud as it is.

PS: If you concern is that Nintendo wastes too much time re-hashing characters instead of making new ones; I doubt it takes much time. They are basically copy+pasting characters with some new textures, I doubt Echo Fighters will be the bane of this game but yeah - You tell me what you think about the Echo Fighter matter.

 

[Super_Hylian]

I can see why people get annoyed when they feel it robs them of another character getting the spot, but I personally don't have any issue with them. Each one has just enough difference to me to make the play style change at least a little bit. Like though Chrom is a echo of Roy, he has enough different to make him feel like his own fighter (like he has more of an up B like Ike, instead of Roy).

And it gives everyone a chance to be there favorite version of characters. Like I know a lot of people like Dark Samus, and if she wasn't an echo then the movement and attack visuals wouldn't be unique like the are, and I like Ken more than Ryu, and he has subtle fighting differences. So I enjoy them, and all the small attentions to detail in the Smash games.

 

[Luigifan18]

I think the Melee clones were great; sure, they had largely the same movesets as their parent fighters, but the moves had different properties and they also had different attributes (like Falco's inferior ground speed and superior jump height in comparison to Fox), giving the clone characters very different playstyles from their parents. Ultimate's Echo Fighters don't even get that; they either get minor alterations that need extensive testing to even notice, hitbox tweaks, or Ken.

 

[Arthur97]

I dislike how they are treated mostly.

 

[NoUsernameHere]

I don't have a problem with echoes. I think they're fine, they take little to no development time to make, they give characters a chance who otherwise wouldn't be in Smash at all which in turn makes fans of those characters satisfied, and without echoes, we'd just have less characters. They also usually have enough differences to justify playing them over their counterparts.

 

[YoshiandToad]

To be honest with the exception of Chrom and Ken, I just kind of forget they exist since they're so similar. The echo concept seemed great but I feel you need Chrom and Ken levels of difference to make non fans of the echo care.

Heck, I like Daisy even but there's no point for me when I like Peach too and there is zero difference between the two characters.

 

[rat.jpg]

If you are mean to Daisy I will log into your youtube channel and watch videos that will throw off your recommended video algorithm

 

[J.B.]

Heck, I like Daisy even but there's no point for me when I like Peach too and there is zero difference between the two characters.

Well, she has a little difference in her u-tilt and dash attack, which is great since I abuse those anyway.

Just from who I've talked to (which ain't much since most of my friends are casuals), a good bulk of the dislike comes from people legitimately not understanding that there aren't set "slots" for chars that can be equally filled by an echo or OC. I personally think they're great, since there are a few movesets that I've discovered I'm good with but willing to invest in more after having them attached to a char that like.

 

[PeridotGX]

I love echoes. If anything I'm sad we got so few. There are a ton of great ideas that didn't make it, like Galacta Knight, Octoling, Impa, Blaziken, and Ninten.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I actually wish the Echoes each got their own numbers in Smash Ultimate's list instead of the original characters with the epsilon symbol. Actually, I hate the branding of Echoes because a lot of characters started out as Echoes in Melee yet they don't count as Echoes for Ultimate even though they still share a lot of things with the original. Falco should be an Echo of Fox because he shares the same moves. He just kicks his reflector instead of using it as a shield, and some moves outside the specials are different like he spins in his combo instead of Fox's rapid sidekicks. Chrom just makes the case around the Echo Fighter brand even more confusing because he's an Echo of a Melee Echo, and he's very different from Roy. He has Ike's Up-B. And a lot of the moves he shared with Roy is shared with Marth and Lucina. And Roy has the Critical Hit Final Smash but Chrom has Awakening Aether as his Final Smash. Honestly, I think the Echo Fighter label is stupid and everyone should be treated as their own character no matter how much they copied another character. Dr. Mario was grouped with Lucina and Dark Pit in Smash 4, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo in Ultimate while the other two still are. I think they should let the fans judge a character as an Echo instead of labeling Echoes in ways the fans don't agree with.

 

[InfiniteRE]

I guess im a fan of "More is Better" in terms of smash characters as long as they are balanced. Echo fighters or not, i'm glad they have the variety of characters. I'd rather have echo fighters than not have them at all, and honestly how could daisy possibly have a different moveset than peach? You could ask that question with any echo fighter and I think the answer would be the same.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I guess im a fan of "More is Better" in terms of smash characters as long as they are balanced. Echo fighters or not, i'm glad they have the variety of characters. I'd rather have echo fighters than not have them at all, and honestly how could daisy possibly have a different moveset than peach? You could ask that question with any echo fighter and I think the answer would be the same.

Daisy could have had a sports inspired moveset if she didn't copy Peach.

 

[Luigifan18]

Daisy could have had a sports inspired moveset if she didn't copy Peach.

That would leave zilch for Waluigi.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

That would leave zilch for Waluigi.

Unless there are a few princessy and flower inspired moves thrown in with the sports. Waluigi could cheat and play dirty and even air swim. Daisy could basically be a hybrid of Peach and Waluigi. Kind of like how Chrom is a hybrid of the Fire Emblem cast even though the game considers him an Echo of Roy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've always had a problem with clone fighters in fighting games.

That said, I weirdly have LESS of a problem with them since they were rebranded as Echoes. It's like Nintendo admitting "No, this isn't really a full character, and we acknowledge that." And it makes it better somehow. Not sure why.

But now, I'm even MORE annoyed by the characters that are still obvious clones, but AREN'T classified as Echoes for some reason. Dr. Mario and Pichu not being Echoes infuriates me...

Either label them as Echoes, or give them a completely unique moveset Nintendo. I want Ganondorf to finally have the unique moveset he deserves. I want Falco to have a sniper rifle. I want Young Link and Toon Link to have special weapons that aren't just more bows and bombs!

 

[Darkmoone1]

I just hate how loose of a definition Echo Fighters come as. On one side you have Daisy and Richter, that are near identical versions of an existing character. No major differences, completely up to preference. Then on the other hand, you have Ken and Chrom which are heavy alterations of the characters they're based on.

I think that when Echo fighters came to be, that my impression was that there would be a slight alteration to fulfill a certain playstyle.

 

[GhostYB]

I never had a problem with clones and sometimes preferred them over original character, so echos are a real treat for me tbh. I'm more of a the more the merrier guy anyways. However, I do question why we got some of the echos we have now other than more obvious picks, like Impa or Octoling.

 

[Christian_CAO]

echoes are fine.
Anyone complaining about the branding is complaining for the sake of needing something to complain about.

 

[osby]

If you think echoes should be better left as alts instead of "not-Melee" clones... just stack their slots. Problem solved.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

People dislike echoes because they're just even more clones. They should at least be interesting. For me, and are pretty cool, is nice since he's not as ugly as Simon, is nice because of her balanced hitboxes, and the rest are just lame.

 

[chipndip]

I've always had a problem with clone fighters in fighting games.

That said, I weirdly have LESS of a problem with them since they were rebranded as Echoes. It's like Nintendo admitting "No, this isn't really a full character, and we acknowledge that." And it makes it better somehow. Not sure why.

But now, I'm even MORE annoyed by the characters that are still obvious clones, but AREN'T classified as Echoes for some reason. Dr. Mario and Pichu not being Echoes infuriates me...

Either label them as Echoes, or give them a completely unique moveset Nintendo. I want Ganondorf to finally have the unique moveset he deserves. I want Falco to have a sniper rifle. I want Young Link and Toon Link to have special weapons that aren't just more bows and bombs!

You know, you make a strong point. All the Links have variations of the same special move. Dr. Mario is like an Echo of Mario and Luigi put together with medicine. Pichu REALLY SHOULD BE AN ECHO FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Yeah, I fully agree.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

You know, you make a strong point. All the Links have variations of the same special move. Dr. Mario is like an Echo of Mario and Luigi put together with medicine. Pichu REALLY SHOULD BE AN ECHO FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Yeah, I fully agree.

Pichu can't be an echo cause his body shape is still different from Pikachu.

 

[osby]

Pichu can't be an echo cause his body shape is still different from Pikachu.

Same with Links. I don't think people some people understand what echoes are. Let's give them another 17 years.

 

[Arthur97]

The body shape rule is kind of dumb to the point they made Lucina taller. Besides, Daisy already has a different hurtbox.

 

[Madwario]

I am not a fan of Lucina or Dark Pit but the rest i dont mind Ike/Chrom, Daisy/Peach and Ryu/Ken etc looks so different that i dont even notice. Hopefully Waluigi will get some love in this game and become an echo of Luigi. I mean Luigi already got his costume and Waluigis costume makes an appearance in Odyssey so Waluigi is pretty much canon by now, no more excuses Sakurai, add him:3

Lucina is in a weird spot. As she is a woman and Marth is a man, they should feel different, but they feel so identical, like a Bowser JR palette swap.

 

[Arthur97]

I am not a fan of Lucina or Dark Pit but the rest i dont mind Ike/Chrom, Daisy/Peach and Ryu/Ken etc looks so different that i dont even notice. Hopefully Waluigi will get some love in this game and become an echo of Luigi. I mean Luigi already got his costume and Waluigis costume makes an appearance in Odyssey so Waluigi is pretty much canon by now, no more excuses Sakurai, add him:3

Lucina is in a weird spot. As she is a woman and Marth is a man, they should feel different, but they feel so identical, like a Bowser JR palette swap.

You think they could at least adjust a few numbers to make her lighter, weaker, and/or faster.

 

[Madwario]

Id love to see Dark Pit and Lucina atleast be faster and lighter or something, itd make them more unique. Then i would actually start playing Dark Pit. I havent tried him yet in Ultimate, i dont know if they changed anything, the only thing i remember from Smash 4 is his ultimate which is a copy of Links and his electroarm throwing someone in a different angle. Making someone a clone but changing how they weight or how fast they are is enough to make a fighter feel unique in my opinion.

 

[Arthur97]

Id love to see Dark Pit and Lucina atleast be faster and lighter or something, itd make them more unique. Then i would actually start playing Dark Pit. I havent tried him yet in Ultimate, i dont know if they changed anything, the only thing i remember from Smash 4 is his ultimate which is a copy of Links and his electroarm throwing someone in a different angle. Making someone a clone but changing how they weight or how fast they are is enough to make a fighter feel unique in my opinion.

Actually, it was more of a clone of the Light Arrows which are no longer present.
I imagine Dark Pit would work more as the heavy hitter of the two, which I'd be fine with since I tend to gravitate more to heavy hitters.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

I am not a fan of Lucina or Dark Pit but the rest i dont mind Ike/Chrom, Daisy/Peach and Ryu/Ken etc looks so different that i dont even notice. Hopefully Waluigi will get some love in this game and become an echo of Luigi. I mean Luigi already got his costume and Waluigis costume makes an appearance in Odyssey so Waluigi is pretty much canon by now, no more excuses Sakurai, add him:3

Lucina is in a weird spot. As she is a woman and Marth is a man, they should feel different, but they feel so identical, like a Bowser JR palette swap.

There's no way Waluigi could be an echo of Luigi, there's too big of a difference between their body structures.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well one thing that could be good for Echoes is that it's easier to use them after you've mastered the original. Oh and they are a good matchup if you want a fair fight with both players using the same moves and don't want the confusing paradox of having the same person there twice. But the way the game decided on who's an Echo confuses me. How is Chrom an Echo of Roy if he's more unique than Roy?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The body shape rule is kind of dumb to the point they made Lucina taller. Besides, Daisy already has a different hurtbox.

It's about body proportions, and it's a valid assessment. Marth and Lucina aren't a good example because their difference in height isn't significant to affect hitboxes and animations.
But then you have something like Pichu and Pikachu, or Toon Link and Link, who need to have some moves suited to their own bodies. Toon Link for example doesn't do the aerial kicks Link does because his legs are short and stubby, so they gave him different animations where he uses his sword instead.

 

[Quillion]

I think the Melee clones were great; sure, they had largely the same movesets as their parent fighters, but the moves had different properties and they also had different attributes (like Falco's inferior ground speed and superior jump height in comparison to Fox), giving the clone characters very different playstyles from their parents. Ultimate's Echo Fighters don't even get that; they either get minor alterations that need extensive testing to even notice, hitbox tweaks, or Ken.

Well they tried doing the former with Doc back in 4, but it didn't really work out. So there is a reason why they've stopped making explicitly labeled Echoes so divergent from now on.

 

[Arthur97]

It's about body proportions, and it's a valid assessment. Marth and Lucina aren't a good example because their difference in height isn't significant to affect hitboxes and animations.
But then you have something like Pichu and Pikachu, or Toon Link and Link, who need to have some moves suited to their own bodies. Toon Link for example doesn't do the aerial kicks Link does because his legs are short and stubby, so they gave him different animations where he uses his sword instead.

I'm saying it's dumb because they gave her Marth's height. Besides, the echo title is pretty arbitrary anyway. Ken is and echo, but Doc isn't. It's pretty much whatever Sakurai felt like.

 

[osby]

Well one thing that could be good for Echoes is that it's easier to use them after you've mastered the original. Oh and they are a good matchup if you want a fair fight with both players using the same moves and don't want the confusing paradox of having the same person there twice. But the way the game decided on who's an Echo confuses me. How is Chrom an Echo of Roy if he's more unique than Roy?

Because they are originally called "dash fighters". Dash is used to indicate something that is derived from another thing. Chrom is derived from Roy.

It's not rocket science.

 

[soviet prince]

Because they are originally called "dash fighters". Dash is used to indicate something that is derived from another thing. Chrom is derived from Roy.

It's not rocket science.

man dash fighters sound so much better then echo fighters

 

[Sean²]

Echo fighters are fine. They mostly make sense now. I remember being more weirded out in Melee that Ganondorf was a clone of Captain Falcon. Of all people, Captain Falcon? I used to sit and try to figure out who he'd be a better clone of. At least now, they remain as clones of someone in their own series.

 

[The Slayer]

Also thought "echo" was a play on words with Metroid Prime 2: Echoes since Dark Samus was from it. So it's just added coincidence.

 

[REZERO]

Honestly echo fighters arent too bad, I rememer in Smash 4 characters had custom specials which is probably why echo characters were created. They were probably intended to be custom specials and the developers decided to give those custom specials a character slot with a different skin.

Nothing wrong with options.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Echoes might as well be alternate costumes with slight property differences (I mentioned a similar idea in my very firs thread involving fighters being grouped together based on similarities), but people hate clones in general since they add nothing new to Smash.

 

[REZERO]

Echoes might as well be alternate costumes with slight property differences (I mentioned a similar idea in my very firs thread involving fighters being grouped together based on similarities), but people hate clones in general since they add nothing new to Smash.

I mean its a good idea for competition. Having alternate costumes and letting people draft would open up new ways to compete if characters had slightly different moveset options to choose from before the match.