So what's with the hate for Echo Fighters?

[Marmotbro]

I haven't seen any hate for Echo Fighters. I remember back in the day people complaining about MUH BORING CLONES STEALIN' SLOTS, but nowadays pretty much everyone realizes that's not true.

I do hate how they have handled some of them, and to be exact, because their existence alone means there is no reason to pick or if you want to win. But that is a discussion for another time.

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't seen a whole lot of hate. The way I see it the more characters in the game the better.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

My only problems with echoes are that it condemns a fighter to being a clone until the next installment (poor Chrom) and that clones are just boring and lame to begin with.

 

[newsuperhackboys]

One thing I never got was why Toon Link or Young Link weren't considered echos. Their both Young Links for crying out loud!

 

[osby]

My only problems with echoes are that it condemns a fighter to being a clone until the next installment (poor Chrom) and that clones are just boring and lame to begin with.

So...your problem with echoes is they are clones and you don't like clones.

One thing I never got was why Toon Link or Young Link were considered echos. Their both Young Links for crying out loud!

They are not echoes.

 

[newsuperhackboys]

They are not echoes.

Sorry, I've messed up. I mean't " weren't".

 

[osby]

Sorry, I've messed up. I mean't " weren't".

Because their attack animations through their whole kit is different. Toon Link don't have any leg attacks, they swing their swords differently in certain moves and they have different proportions.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I honestly don't mind Echoes now. My only problem would probably be and mostly because of so many FE characters... all with swords... but that's just my anti-FE bias talking, even though I know said Lucina is basically a "balanced" Marth which makes her easier to play... which is okay I guess... *mumble mumble*

For the case of , I honestly don't know what's different about her compared to Peach besides flower effects as opposed to peaches... I really don't, but hey, at least she got a character spot, though I'm sure many people would prefer her to have some sports moves, mostly noted, from Strikers Charged featuring Crystal moves. For , it's been said a million times, but many wish he got a different moveset featuring different weapons, not just the Electroshock Arm, and since this would be his 2nd Smash appearance, some of probably though he could get something new that's different from Pit. At this point, I don't really care since he's technically a reflection of Pit from the Mirror of Truth, so him being an echo rather than being completely different makes sense.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like Echoes. I just am not exactly fond of the exact choices they made regarding them.

Lucina was great in Smash 4 as a newcomer, still is. The moveset and playstyle of Marth is so much based around timing, precision and being in the right position all the time, even one little change is significant to trade that around. Lucina was a great choice to add, as she's a very important character in Fire Emblem, and they seemed to have learned about the mistake in Melee with Roy. Chrom is much the same, expect his changes from Roy actually make him better.

I also would've liked if Samus was more powerd based than Dark Samus, who could be a bit more technical, have more multi hitting combos, just anything. A awesome thing that would be canon as well is having Charge Shot with less power, but having a sort of poison or Phazon property on the move, that it adds a little damage over time. Another change I'd add to Samus herself is basing her of the Samus Returns redesign, and give her chargable Missiles. Dark Samus then, would be much like Young Link, based around the more classic version of the character but added speed (Dark Samus shouldn't be that significantly faster however).

Chrom also shouldn't run as fast as Roy, in fact he should be just a little faster than Ike to justify his power. This also gives Roy his unique artibutes that work in his favor, as he doesn't have the range as Chrom or the other Fire Emblem Lords do. Flare Blade also could've been a projectile, or be more ranged.

Dark Pit is a funny one. They got the Staff from Kid Icarus Uprising as a item, but they didn't give it to Dark Pit. That would be my one change probably. Though I kinda have a hard time deciding which Special attack I'd change for it. Dark Pit and Pit being so similar kinda fits anyway. That's why the character has grown on me a lot, since playing Uprising.

Not sure what to do with Daisy honestly. As Daisy never did much in canon. Maybe make that Football item her Down Special instead of the turpins? That would make her be based more around the Mario Sports games? Her having Toad also feels weird.

With these small adjustments, the characters would be much in the same position as Pichu. Dr.Mario and Young Link.

I like the Echoes, but ever since Ken's reveal, I always thought what they did with the other Echoes is wasted potential.

I also still really want Impa as a Echo to Sheik. Am kinda salty that I don't have this option.

 

[osby]

I like Echoes. I just am not exactly fond of the exact choices they made regarding them.

Lucina was great in Smash 4 as a newcomer, still is. The moveset and playstyle of Marth is so much based around timing, precision and being in the right position all the time, even one little change is significant to trade that around. Lucina was a great choice to add, as she's a very important character in Fire Emblem, and they seemed to have learned about the mistake in Melee with Roy. Chrom is much the same, expect his changes from Roy actually make him better.

I also would've liked if Samus was more powerd based than Dark Samus, who could be a bit more technical, have more multi hitting combos, just anything. A awesome thing that would be canon as well is having Charge Shot with less power, but having a sort of poison or Phazon property on the move, that it adds a little damage over time. Another change I'd add to Samus herself is basing her of the Samus Returns redesign, and give her chargable Missiles. Dark Samus then, would be much like Young Link, based around the more classic version of the character but added speed (Dark Samus shouldn't be that significantly faster however).

Chrom also shouldn't run as fast as Roy, in fact he should be just a little faster than Ike to justify his power. This also gives Roy his unique artibutes that work in his favor, as he doesn't have the range as Chrom or the other Fire Emblem Lords do. Flare Blade also could've been a projectile, or be more ranged.

Dark Pit is a funny one. They got the Staff from Kid Icarus Uprising as a item, but they didn't give it to Dark Pit. That would be my one change probably. Though I kinda have a hard time deciding which Special attack I'd change for it. Dark Pit and Pit being so similar kinda fits anyway. That's why the character has grown on me a lot, since playing Uprising.

Not sure what to do with Daisy honestly. As Daisy never did much in canon. Maybe make that Football item her Down Special instead of the turpins? That would make her be based more around the Mario Sports games? Her having Toad also feels weird.

With these small adjustments, the characters would be much in the same position as Pichu. Dr.Mario and Young Link.

I like the Echoes, but ever since Ken's reveal, I always thought what they did with the other Echoes is wasted potential.

I also still really want Impa as a Echo to Sheik. Am kinda salty that I don't have this option.

I don't think development team really had time to make all the echoes semi-clones like Ken.

 

[Arthur97]

Though, Young Link is pretty close to Link. Let's be real though, the main reason Doc, Pichu, and Young Link aren't echoes is probably the fact they debuted in Melee.

I don't think development team really had time to make all the echoes semi-clones like Ken.

Then perhaps they should have taken more dev time. They could have at least removed Chrom from the Robins.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

So...your problem with echoes is they are clones and you don't like clones.



They are not echoes.

Precisely. I'd rather not have them at all.

 

[osby]

Then perhaps they should have taken more dev time. They could have at least removed Chrom from the Robins.

Adding something is more difficult than removing stuff, I think it was a deliberate choice.

Precisely. I'd rather not have them at all.

If you want removal of content just because you don't like it, you are going to have a hard time getting your wants. Just ignore it and move on.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Not much hate these days, but that's mostly because:
1) T H E Y • A R E • A L L • H E R E
2) Even with echo gorls we have 45+ unique fighting styles

Only memers and edgy children who love to complain/argue would actually go out of their way to be dissatisfied with echos.

 

[Arthur97]

Adding something is more difficult than removing stuff, I think it was a deliberate choice.



If you want removal of content just because you don't like it, you are going to have a hard time getting your wants. Just ignore it and move on.

Then at least remove Chrom from the victory animation. Come on, that just reeks of lazy.

 

[osby]

Then at least remove Chrom from the victory animation. Come on, that just reeks of lazy.

Dunno, I think it's hilarious.

 

[Nepht]

Got my SF main Ken in Smash. I am totally down with echo fighters :3

 

[Idon]

They're not true to character most of the time and they don't bring up anything new gameplay wise to the table. On top of that, being an echo locks them to being a variation of that fighter forever along with being associated with that character and Sakurai has yet to fully separate a clone from their original base. Plus **** like Alph exists for seemlingly no reason as an alt costume as opposed to an echo despite having personality differences from every other Pikmin captain as well.

Like, I love clones and variant fighters such as the Gokus/Vegetas in DBFZ or the Ryus in Street Fighter, but the way Smash handles echoes is really disappointing being glorified alt costumes most of the time.

Richter I feel is fine because that is canonical how the Belmont line fights and Ken because he's by far the most in-line with how he fights in SF, but everyone else is disappointing.

 

[Arthur97]

Dunno, I think it's hilarious.

Ha ha, no, seriously, get him out. A new FS would be nice while they're at it. Ken gets two for crying out loud, and, yes, I know about Ryu, but maybe if they'd put less time into Ken, they could have done more other stuff.

 

[osby]

They're not true to character most of the time and they don't bring up anything new gameplay wise to the table. On top of that, being an echo locks them to being a variation of that fighter forever along with being associated with that character and Sakurai has yet to fully separate a clone from their original base.

*laughs in Jigglypuff*

 

[Lil Puddin]

Then at least remove Chrom from the victory animation. Come on, that just reeks of lazy.

Due to time/dimension shenanigans made canon in Awakening...

It's totally possible for Robin to have their bro4life Chrom next to them while fighting 7 other Chroms.

Get on Nintendy's level of awareness, hunTy.

and they don't bring up anything new gameplay wise to the table

tbh this is my only gripe with some Echos, but it's not serious enough since we still have a buncha different styles. Like, for example, Daisy could've used some of Peach's custom specials. Instead the only non-cosmetic-noteworthy things are bigger Ftilt range and different SideB angle. Maybe as time goes on they'll sprinkle more differences that aren't just cosmetic. The "different personality" aspect of Echos is very nice, though. A super in-depth cosmetic change is still pretty worthy of Echo-tizing instead of just being another Alph imo.

 

[osby]

Unpopular opinion but if I have to chose between "glorified alt costume" and "just alt costume", I go with glorified one.

 

[Arthur97]

Due to time/dimension shenanigans made canon in Awakening...

It's totally possible for Robin to have their bro4life Chrom next to them while fighting 7 other Chroms.

Get on Nintendy's level of awareness, hunTy.


tbh this is my only gripe with some Echos, but it's not serious enough since we still have a buncha different styles. Like, for example, Daisy could've used some of Peach's custom specials. Instead the only non-cosmetic-noteworthy things are bigger Ftilt range and different SideB angle. Maybe as time goes on they'll sprinkle more differences that aren't just cosmetic. The "different personality" aspect of Echos is very nice, though. A super in-depth cosmetic change is still pretty worthy of Echo-tizing instead of just being another Alph imo.

Palutena got removed from Pit's after becoming playable. It's just kind of lazy to keep Chrom around now.

 

[Idon]

Palutena got removed from Pit's after becoming playable. It's just kind of lazy to keep Chrom around now.

What I don't get is that Robin already got NEW VICTORY ANIMATIONS so just removing Chrom's model doesn't seem at all any more difficult.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Palutena got removed from Pit's after becoming playable. It's just kind of lazy to keep Chrom around now.

What I don't get is that Robin already got NEW VICTORY ANIMATIONS so just removing Chrom's model doesn't seem at all any more difficult.

Given the amount of polish in the game, I don't think that's the case. It could be the case of the lazies, but at least there's more than enough backing a potential lazy decision. (maybe spoilers ahead)

Recall that:
1) Simplistic timeline shenanigans exist.
2) There are already multiple Robins in the same plane of existence.
3) Fire Emblem Heroes which is basically canon in the FE Universe (pocket dimension) stretches the fantasy shenanigans further - there's infinite dimensions/timelines and therefore infinite Chroms/Robins. Even unique god-like beings (Loki, Grima, etc) are infinite in number. Infinite amounts of different outcomes. Whateva.
4) Chrom is used in Robin's Final Smash as a nod to the paired up fighting in Awakening, using the broest bros in the game. Replacing Chrom would just be going from #1 Bro to some lesser heaux. Using the opposite gender Robin could've been an OK replacement, but not as good as Chrobin.
5) Robin/Chrom broship is probably the most intense broship (without being mildly creepy or flat) in the FE universe, maybe even most of the Nintendo universe.

So the above justified having Chrom appear in at least 1 of Robin's victories without being an oopsie-lazie-doopsie. We use good-Robin in SmashU. Robin is only good because Chrom and frendz helped Robin, making it impossible for Grima to take over the once blank-soul vessel (Grima, like other evil baddies, can control more than 1 vessel). So good-Robin and Chrom are kind of a package deal. Whereas Chrom is still Chrom regardless of Robin being there or not, although not the best (less impulsive/less testosterone poisoned) version of himself.

 

[Idon]

Given the amount of polish in the game, I don't think that's the case. It could be the case of the lazies, but at least there's more than enough backing a potential lazy decision. (maybe spoilers ahead)

Recall that:
1) Simplistic timeline shenanigans exist.
2) There are already multiple Robins in the same plane of existence.
3) Fire Emblem Heroes which is basically canon in the FE Universe (pocket dimension) stretches the fantasy shenanigans further - there's infinite dimensions/timelines and therefore infinite Chroms/Robins. Even unique god-like beings (Loki, Grima, etc) are infinite in number. Infinite amounts of different outcomes. Whateva.
4) Chrom is used in Robin's Final Smash as a nod to the paired up fighting in Awakening, using the broest bros in the game. Replacing Chrom would just be going from #1 Bro to some lesser heaux. Using the opposite gender Robin could've been an OK replacement, but not as good as Chrobin.
5) Robin/Chrom broship is probably the most intense broship (without being mildly creepy or flat) in the FE universe, maybe even most of the Nintendo universe.

So the above justified having Chrom appear in at least 1 of Robin's victories without being an oopsie-lazie-doopsie. We use good-Robin in SmashU. Robin is only good because Chrom and frendz helped Robin, making it impossible for Grima to take over the once blank-soul vessel (Grima, like other evil baddies, can control more than 1 vessel). So good-Robin and Chrom are kind of a package deal. Whereas Chrom is still Chrom regardless of Robin being there or not, although not the best (less impulsive/less testosterone poisoned) version of himself.

You are really stretching for this to make sense, especially in a non-canon crossover game to begin with. And stop, FEH is not canon, I swear to ****ing god.

I just want Chrom gone from Robin to separate the two further as their own thing like Palutena and Pit or Samus and Zero Suit Samus (In Smash 4)

 

[Arthur97]

Given the amount of polish in the game, I don't think that's the case. It could be the case of the lazies, but at least there's more than enough backing a potential lazy decision. (maybe spoilers ahead)

Recall that:
1) Simplistic timeline shenanigans exist.
2) There are already multiple Robins in the same plane of existence.
3) Fire Emblem Heroes which is basically canon in the FE Universe (pocket dimension) stretches the fantasy shenanigans further - there's infinite dimensions/timelines and therefore infinite Chroms/Robins. Even unique god-like beings (Loki, Grima, etc) are infinite in number. Infinite amounts of different outcomes. Whateva.
4) Chrom is used in Robin's Final Smash as a nod to the paired up fighting in Awakening, using the broest bros in the game. Replacing Chrom would just be going from #1 Bro to some lesser heaux. Using the opposite gender Robin could've been an OK replacement, but not as good as Chrobin.
5) Robin/Chrom broship is probably the most intense broship (without being mildly creepy or flat) in the FE universe, maybe even most of the Nintendo universe.

So the above justified having Chrom appear in at least 1 of Robin's victories without being an oopsie-lazie-doopsie. We use good-Robin in SmashU. Robin is only good because Chrom and frendz helped Robin, making it impossible for Grima to take over the once blank-soul vessel (Grima, like other evil baddies, can control more than 1 vessel). So good-Robin and Chrom are kind of a package deal. Whereas Chrom is still Chrom regardless of Robin being there or not, although not the best (less impulsive/less testosterone poisoned) version of himself.

Heroes is not canon.

And having the pair up still be the FS is fine, but they should have replaced Chrom and taken him out of the victory animation.

I also don't think the game is that polished. Some aspects are kind of clunky, and there seem to be a rather large amount of bugs. Some are to be expected of course, but, come on.

 

[Lil Puddin]

And stop, FEH is not canon, I swear to ****ing god.

Care to show me the quote specifically from IS that states FeH is not-canon?

Assumptions don't count for obvious reasons. If it is not specifically stated, we have to utilize the things we learn from the main games. And since FeH is made by the creators of the main games and overseen by them... That just means the existence of FeH (and the dimensional shenanigans in Awakening/Fates) proves that anything can be canon. But also meaningless if you personally didn't see it happen/care for it. So we could say that Priam is canonically Ike's son since he has Ragnell and is Ike-ish looking and he says he is Ike's son... But we just didn't personally witness anything in the dimension where Ike has a son. Or maybe Ike never had a son - and that's also canon . Also, some FeH player has Zeglius marry Ike and that makes it a canon union - just in that player's dimension - so it has 0 bearing on your FE dimension(s) or the FE10 common happenings (storylines we personally play through). So there'd be the widely agreed upon canon. But then the "OK, but this is what happened in my/this dimension" AU-that's-validated-by-IS-due-to-the-rules-of-infinite-dimensions-which-means-there-are-no-rules.


I sure hope IS specifically stated FeH isn't canon and all dimension stuff isn't canon.

Otherwise there's gonna be a lot of mad FE historians/super srs players...

 

[Arthur97]

Care to show me the quote specifically from IS that states FeH is not-canon?

Assumptions don't count for obvious reasons. If it is not specifically stated, we have to utilize the things we learn from the main games. And since FeH is made by the creators of the main games and overseen by them... That just means the existence of FeH (and the dimensional shenanigans in Awakening/Fates) proves that anything can be canon. But also meaningless if you personally didn't see it happen/care for it. So we could say that Priam is canonically Ike's son since he has Ragnell and is Ike-ish looking and he says he is Ike's son... But we just didn't personally witness anything in the dimension where Ike has a son. Or maybe Ike never had a son - and that's also canon . Also, some FeH player has Zeglius marry Ike and that makes it a canon union - just in that player's dimension - so it has 0 bearing on your FE dimension(s) or the FE10 common happenings (storylines we personally play through). So there'd be the widely agreed upon canon. But then the "OK, but this is what happened in my/this dimension" AU-that's-validated-by-IS-due-to-the-rules-of-infinite-dimensions-which-means-there-are-no-rules.


I sure hope IS specifically stated FeH isn't canon and all dimension stuff isn't canon.

Otherwise there's gonna be a lot of mad FE historians/super srs players...
View attachment 183984View attachment 183984View attachment 183984

No one who is dead is actually dead. There is no evidence supporting that anyone outside of the Awakening and Fates crews ever left their own worlds. Outrealms exist (which is where your argument should be focused), but never has Heroes been stated to be canon. It's just the natures of these games to ignore canon. There is no reason to believe it is.

And you're still missing the point. Just because you can have Chrom still there, doesn't mean he should be. It's lazy to just keep him there when he's his own fighter. Let the Robins grow beyond just Chrom's tactician. Even changing whoever shows up to help would be better than lazily rehashing Chrom, but what more should I expect from this game?

 

[Tetrin]

I don't hate echoes, but I think the existing ones aren't good choices for echoes. Dark Samus, Ken, and maybe Dark Pit or Richter. Daisy is just too irrelevant to the Mario franchise apart from being shoehorned in every spinoff game possible (and Waluigi would better represent those spinoffs, anyhow). Dark Pit isn't that important to the Kid Icarus series, and Richter I could do without.

As for Lucina and Chrom, and this is just a nitpick of mine, Fire Emblem shouldn't really have them as echoes. It essentially makes 4 very similar characters out of 7 reps (plus, 4 out of 7 blue haired).

Better choices for echoes imo include Shadow (Sonic), Octolings (Inklings), Impa (Sheik), and redesigning Alph to echo Olimar.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Then at least remove Chrom from the victory animation. Come on, that just reeks of lazy.

I don't understand why that wasn't changed in the freaking day one patch. Like, he still has the old victory theme. How hard is it to change that?

 

[Arthur97]

I don't understand why that wasn't changed in the freaking day one patch. Like, he still has the old victory theme. How hard is it to change that?

Admittedly, giving Chrom the Awakening theme would probably be easier. Though, I suppose they could just straight up remove Chrom from the victory animation even if it'd look a bit odd.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Any chance of a fighter having a unique moveset is abandoned when they become an echo fighter.

Honestly, seeing Dark Samus as an echo fighter to Samus feels worse than knowing she’s an assist trophy. It would have been so cool to see her use phazon based attacks and have personality in the way she fights, but her being an echo fighter now means that hope is permanently gone unless Smash as a franchise undergoes a total overhaul. I would have mained her if she was unique. At least seeing a wanted fighter as an assist trophy leaves hope for the future.

Wait, Dark Samus is a he now?

Edited. Whoops.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Any chance of a fighter having a unique moveset is abandoned when they become an echo fighter.

Honestly, seeing Dark Samus as an echo fighter to Samus feels worse than knowing he’s an assist trophy. It would have been so cool to see him use phazon based attacks and have personality in the way he fights, but him being an echo fighter now means that hope is permanently gone unless Smash as a franchise undergoes a total overhaul. I would have mained him if he was unique. At least seeing a wanted fighter as an assist trophy leaves hope for the future.

Wait, Dark Samus is a he now?

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Wait, Dark Samus is a he now?

Samus's armor makes her look like a guy. I bet a lot of Smash players thought Samus was a man before Zero Suit Samus was introduced in Brawl. And Dark Samus copied Samus's manly armor. I get the confusion. Looking at Samus and Dark Samus while forgetting about Zero Suit Samus can be confusing. After all, Samus is the trope namer for Samus is a Girl which is the trope about a twist reveal of someone's gender. And people who don't play Smash or Metroid would still believe that Samus is a guy named Metroid.

 

[osby]

Samus's armor makes her look like a guy.

It makes her look like a robot if anything. Though her Other M armor is noticeably feminine.

 

[Idon]

Care to show me the quote specifically from IS that states FeH is not-canon?

Would you care to prove something as pants on head stupid as that IS canon and where the evidence is for it?

Prove your point, it's not valid because there's no evidence disproving it. Jesus Christ, this is THE most basic logical fallacy to fall into.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

It makes her look like a robot if anything. Though her Other M armor is noticeably feminine.

She looks kind of like Master Chief or a stormtrooper or those Atlantean soldiers aiding Black Manta to go after Arthur and Mera in Italy. She looks like a man wearing sci-fi armor. Her Other M armor does look more feminine than her suit from Brawl but I'm pretty sure people who haven't realize that Samus and Zero Suit Samus are the same person would still think of Samus as a he. Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about Echo Fighters and not the gender of Samus Aran. And I think Dark Samus and all other Echo Fighters should have got their own numbers. In fact, I think Dark Samus's floating animations should be enough to distinguish her from Samus if Pichu's self-hurting mechanic is enough to not make it not an Echo of Pikachu. And I don't like how Dark Samus is placed in the middle of the Original 12 when the character select screen is ordered by the time a character gets announced in the series. The Echo's placement next to the original reminding me of how they were grouped by series only to make it harder to find the other characters, that's just so confusing. Lucina should be next to Robin, not Marth.

 

[osby]

She looks kind of like Master Chief or a stormtrooper or those Atlantean soldiers aiding Black Manta to go after Arthur and Mera in Italy. She looks like a man wearing sci-fi armor. Her Other M armor does look more feminine than her suit from Brawl but I'm pretty sure people who haven't realize that Samus and Zero Suit Samus are the same person would still think of Samus as a he. Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about Echo Fighters and not the gender of Samus Aran. And I think Dark Samus and all other Echo Fighters should have got their own numbers. In fact, I think Dark Samus's floating animations should be enough to distinguish her from Samus if Pichu's self-hurting mechanic is enough to not make it not an Echo of Pikachu. And I don't like how Dark Samus is placed in the middle of the Original 12 when the character select screen is ordered by the time a character gets announced in the series. The Echo's placement next to the original reminding me of how they were grouped by series only to make it harder to find the other characters, that's just so confusing. Lucina should be next to Robin, not Marth.

If you open a new paragraph, it'll be more clear you are talking about two unrelated topics.

 

[Idon]

If you open a new paragraph, it'll be more clear you are talking about two unrelated topics.

Don't bother.
It's his thing.