[collapse="Response"]Aw I didn't get to respond to that last set of posts, I was going to last night, but alas, my internet was completely screwy. And Fenrir said most of what I would have.
an edited version: Brawl IC CG is much much more difficult to complete. Grab setups are harder because mobility is lower and more characters play zoning projectile based games, and mashing out is easier. And there's 9B who's like the best in Japan. And there's planking which is a tactic that directly counters grabs that has had to be limited/banned. Wobbling should have been banned long ago, but it wasn't; now the topic should be hot again and we should be talking about it, because what was the previously highest placing of an Icy in a major?, but we're not. Stupid community.
Oh and hey that guy who beat wobbles also lost to him earlier in the bracket.
Also I'm not sure what you mean by 4 Icys at Evo. 4 who made bracket? Or 4/696? If the latter (which I
hope it isn't,) do you think we as a community have a good understanding of the Icys capabilities? When <1% of our players play the character? 4 making bracket is probably an accurate representation and I hope that's what actually happened. (Though again we can compare 4 icys to 23 fox players...)[/collapse]
[collapse=Grabbing difficulty]Sometimes I think that we say and treat "High level play" like it's some mystical thing. I don't think high competitive play changes much in essence than lower levels--assuming the two smashers are on the same relative skill level, or that the absolute difference between the two smashers skill is the same. That's why it is easy to confuse skill level of people playing when just watching videos. If you saw PP vs Mango at Evo, and if you ignore the little things, how much does that match look like upper-mid level fox v falco? This is also why we've made mistakes as a community like the Myko thing.
Another thing to think about is how easy it is for us to land grabs right now. Those worse than us are easier to land grabs against, and those better than us harder. As we improve as players, those players we considered grabbing (assuming constant skill level) become worse players relative to us. That means that they all become easier to grab.
And my point here is this: Theoretically, grabbing someone at high level play is insignificantly different than grabbing someone at any other level, if you are also playing at that level. Or, Difficulty of grabbing is a function much more dependent on the difference between the two smashers skill levels than the absolute level of play. That's theory, but I wanted you to understand my logic behind it (hence the explanation.) (We can't really discuss how true this is, only whether it makes sense or not and whether we agree with it or not.)[/collapse]
[collapse=Community abuse]Let's also be clear here and establish that we are not and never have been the brawl community. Wobbling has been known about since I entered the community, but was not popularized until... um... much later. At least 2007. I think later than that even. It was not because Icys were unused or not doing well at tournaments; it was because icy players
refused to use it (Chu was significant before wobbling was named as such.) We have a Doctor Mario player who placed in the top 8 at Evo who, last I knew of, refuses to CG FFers because he thinks it's cheap (or something). We have a game that planking could be abused in (Don't know if you've seen the EU jigglypuff/falco match on FD or not... can't find it.) We have a game where (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k ) that is possible. But we don't do these things en masse; that's not who we are as a community. Many Icy players I've gotten opinions from prefer wobbling to be banned. And that's why there isn't a line to start abusing this tech, because we don't like it. And for good reason.[/collapse]
[collapse=Wobbles skill and Data]While it is undermining to say Wobbling got him second, the sad thing is you don't have any way to truly refute it. (Other than stubborn insistence that he could've gotten 2nd without wobbling.) And, I agree that he has the capability to get second without wobbling, but we can't ever know that for sure (unless we play the tournament over again (one more year!)) I also think it's unlikely wobbles would have gotten second without the infinite. Honestly a lot of your last post sounds like a defensive Wobbles fan
And if 25% of the people who play icys get top 8 at evo, that sounds pretty overpowered (I can manipulate numbers too!) We should agree that our data is problematic.[/collapse]
I'm also not claiming wobbling is "broken," in the traditional sense. I think Fenrir slipped and said it was in his last post, but the community understand of "broken" is probably something like Ivan Ooze (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY ) and wobbling is obviously not on the same level. I am saying it's unhealthy--both for the development of the Icy's metagame and for the entire cast vs Icys meta, unfair--the risk/reward/demand for the move explosively fails to match with other strats of similar strength, and uncompetitive--as previously discussed. If that's what broken is, then wobbling is broken. Whatever we call it, I call for it to be banned.
Your arguments are basically wrong.
1) "I don't think high competitive play changes much in essence then lower levels." You are thinking incorrectly. Because even when two players are of comparable skill, that doesn't mean they will play a situational game that resembles
in any way lower level play. They will use and become accustomed to a different set of options that invalidates certain strategies. So my grabs against much better players look nothing like the ones I land on lower level players. For starters, Nana is dead a lot more.
YES I still get grabs, obviously. But the circumstances totally change. Half the time I don't have Nana present to make anything of it. Most of the time these guys won't play in grabbable positions when there's a clear and present danger of a sync'ed Nana, because they know better. When they goof up and make poor decisions, I go in hard and try to make it count, because I won't be getting many of them.
2) I didn't get second because of Wobbling. I got second because of wobbling
combined with everything else I did right. If you want to point out the big powerful thing that gave me awesome punishes, you should also point out the times where I had to win on the strength of a single ice-climber. My 3rd game against Mango consisted of 3 stocks that I took
without landing a grab. There's no dispute I wouldn't have gotten second without the infinite! Does that mean we should look for
every strategy that has ever made a difference in somebody's placing and force people to replay the matches without them, to see who is TRULY BETTER?
No. Because that's dumb.
3) You are trying to pigeon-hole Melee into your own definition of "what Melee is truly all about, deep down." You're using fuzzy, emotional arguments that don't bear on actual competitiveness. When you start saying "that's not what the game is
really about" your argument becomes about as valid and intellectually fulfilling as "edge-guarding is too cheap," and "stop using glitches and exploits" and "projectiles are for pansies, fight up close like a man."
Do you know what Melee
really is? Melee is the closed set containing all things programmed into the game. Anything else is your construction. We did not make the gamespace, we just explored it. So when you pick random **** in the game and say "that's not Melee," you're being goofy. Stop being goofy.
We banned things for being unbeatable and granting overwhelming advantages, or for completely degenerating gameplay. Wobbling doesn't do that. You still need to understand Nana, and combo-weights and CG options and a billion other things to make it a genuinely useful tool rather than a stupid gimmick and at the point you're... you know, playing the game.
4) Fun fact, Chu didn't do the infinite
because he thought it was too hard. I had a conversation with him at MLG Dallas and he said, "I heard two ice-climber players were here doing their crazy infinite or whatever!" Then I told him, "it's actually not hard. Once you learn the timing it's really easy," and he looked at me like I was crazy. Guess who was using it at Zero Challenge like a year later? Same with Fly; he didn't bother practicing it because it was banned. Then even when it was unbanned, he was just more confident in his other chaingrabs. He's explicitly said, "I find it weird when people use me for an anti-wobbling argument."
As for "everybody knew about it..." I'm gonna have to say that's false as well. Because nobody knows a darn thing about the Ice Climbers, and
nobody was saying "wow you're actually using their infinite," They were saying, "whoa what is that?" People didn't use it because the trade-off is
you have to play the Ice Climbers and nobody wants to do that because they're hard and confusing. I cannot tell you how many people try picking them up and then they look at me and say, "do you seriously play this character?"
Picking ICs gives you a giant advantage in terms of grabbing, but disadvantages elsewhere. You can't evaluate their touch-of-death in a total vacuum, no matter how much you really want to. If I had Marth's grab range and movement capacity for landing grabs, then we'd be talking some serious nonsense. That would be out the window in a heartbeat, and good riddance to it.
6) Sorry Shroomed, but not CG'ing space animals is silly. Three out of our top 8 are relentless CG'ers--Armada vs. Spacies/Falcon, M2K depending on his matchup, and myself against everybody. So I don't know why you brought this up.
HBox can't chaingrab but he's happy to use u-throw rest and oldschool wall-of-pain edgeguards. Mango will gladly shine you while he has ledge-invincibility. PP loves d-throw d-air. Ice and M2K and Shroomed are happy to hit you with invincible inescapable b-airs from the edge when you can't do anything about it. These players are all willing to lock you down and hit you with inescapable stuff.
There is a reason you practice without powerful tools, and that's so you can learn how to play the game in the event they aren't available to you. But guess what? In do or die situations, it's not about being flashy and giving your opponent a chance, it's about
WINNING. You don't see Fox players stop using u-throw u-air because it's so good, even though we've known about it
SINCE THE PREVIOUS INSTALLMENT OF THE GAME. Don't you find it abhorrently ridiculous that Fox players would stoop to using such a brutally efficient combo when they have so many more tools, and it would truly demonstrate their skill as a Fox main if they didn't rely on such an old and already explored combo?
I don't, because I expect my opponent to try and shaft me at every turn. When somebody finds a braindead way to kill Nana, I expect them to use it. When a Falco finds out that his f-smash is safe on my shield half the time, and there are situations where they can literally just use it over and over again because I can't regain stage control around it, I expect them to do it. I don't cry about it and tell them to play in a way that demands
more skill and looks
more like Melee. Guess what happens when people know I can't infinite? They camp me just as hard as they did before, and fish for Nana gimps.
Every player, in developing their character, is hunting for the strongest tools and most BS combinations imaginable so they can crush each other. It's our game's peculiar version of natural selection. That's what you do.
7) I think Wobbling is stupid. I think it reflects a poor balance between punishment/playability for the character, that at high levels they end up playing extremely defensive while looking for big openings.
You can think something is awesome but banworthy, and you can think something is stupid but still keep it legal.
It's stupid. It's not broken. Don't ban it.
But yes it is problematic. I can evaluate Icys game with wobbling compared to Icys game without wobbling. I don't think they are a terrible character without wobbling (7th best even without wobbling, I think Armada and I agree on this, Armada, you said "with wobbling allowed and even if they would be something like 3rd" maybe you meant with no wobbling 7th, 3rd with wobbling?) Therefore this is not a case of "this character is useless without this technique" or "icys need wobbling to stay relevant." I think you agree with this since you say you'd get 2nd without wobbling (and I think you certainly have the capabilities as a player.)
