So...none items user....cant adapt?

[Vandom6]

To be honest, IMO this whole 1v1 all skill thing sounds a lot like Rock, Paper, Scissors. It ends up being all about mindgames and reading your opponents moves.

HOSHI-! I compared SSB to rock, paper, scissors!
/Flameshield on!

 

[Thino]

To be honest, IMO this whole 1v1 all skill thing sounds a lot like Rock, Paper, Scissors. It ends up being all about mindgames and reading your opponents moves.

HOSHI-! I compared SSB to rock, paper, scissors!
/Flameshield on!

except in Rock Scissors Pepper you dont see what your opponent is gonna play , just like playing with ite-*trips*
...
SAKURAIIIIIIIII !!

 

[Papapaint]

To be honest, IMO this whole 1v1 all skill thing sounds a lot like Rock, Paper, Scissors. It ends up being all about mindgames and reading your opponents moves.

HOSHI-! I compared SSB to rock, paper, scissors!
/Flameshield on!

You mean... like how pro-level chess is being able to predict your opponent's moves?

OHSHI-- CHESS PAPER SCISSORS!

Not to mention Kirby uses a pot with his final smash...

OHSHI-- JULIA CHILDS CONFIRMED FOR BRAWL!

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I can't believe the thread has gotten this far.

In a match of skill items must be off. Items provide unfair and sometimes (manytimes) unavoidable situations/advantages. It is simply not fair, and the fact that this thread is still being argued is a mockery of this board, fighters, and the essence of competition.

I just can't believe it's still going. You all know what the bottom line is, and the troll has already made a fool of himself numerous times.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

It's personal preference and if games of chance and probability can even be skewed by skill, then it can be in this game.

It's just if you choose to do it or not. You choose a sterile environment for matches, and people should totally respect that. But putting yourself up on a pedestal of skill superiority is not cool, when people are trying to develop another type of skill.

I don't think I should have to explain again why Smash Bros. is nothing like Mario Party.

It's true that chance and probability can be skewed by skill, but the same goes that skill can be skewed by chance and probability. The fact we are pointing out is that is why this aspect has been removed from our tournament scene. Yes, Poker is played on terms that were fairly agreed on, but if my opponent is dealt a Royal Flush and I am dealt the worst hand in the existence of the game, then he won by luck, not skill. While that may be fine if you agree to it but that is not what the majority of competitive gamers want (I am basing this on the response threads like this receive on competitive gaming boards).

I am not trying to stand on a pedestal and I apologize if it at any point seemed like I was stating that item players are unskilled. However, if you have read a majority of this thread (which I suggest not doing, it's too long and redundant), he has been telling us that we are limited cowards who lack the skill to adapt to items and the chaotic nature of FFA matches. I am simply stating the argument from our perspective as to why matches are played one-on-one with items removed. I have no problem with people wanting to play with items or FFA matches. Hell, I do it from time to time. It's just that these matches do not give the results we want in our tournaments.

I have actually played a lot of Mario Party, and I have to say that from my personal experience the results of matches are A LOT like a 4 person FFA Item Match in any Smash Bros. game. I played the Mario Party games quite a bit more than some of the other people I played with so I won a majority of the games. However, no matter how much better you are, there are just times when the game plays too much to your disadvantage to win. Also, if you put 4 players in the match who are relatively close in skill level (like the players likely to attend tournaments will be) you are not going to have the slightly better player taking a majority of the matches; it will be rather randomly determined with everyone having about the same win count. This goes for both games (party games are made for that sort of result, and Smash Bros. and Mario Party were created to be party games).

In Mario Party you may win the majority of the mini-games and get the most coins throughout the game, but the Stars may always appear for your opponents still giving them the victory. In Smash Bros. you may completely otherwise dominate the match but the items continuously spawn in favor of your opponents, or just in ways that straight up annihilate you with zero effort from the opponent. You may have defeated your opponent in every aspect of gameplay, but the handicap was just too much. The person with more experience may win the majority of 100 games, but you are a lot less likely to win the majority of 3-5 games (average amounts for tournaments), due to the probability of those random games that defeat you with chance appearing in the early number of matches.

Poker players may like these results, and people who like Smash Bros. for its party game characteristics may want that; however, based on the majority voice of the competitive smash scene, that's not what we want. He, however, has been responding to us in a manner as if to state that this random nature of FFA Item Matches will not in any way skew the skill of the player or the results of tournaments (even though items were given a chance and they proved to do so).

 

[Starscream]

I was playing an online match with Falco today versus Ike and it chose my friend's level and item settings. Pictochat and items presumably on high or medium (ugh). I'm keeping him at bay with SHDLs and a Time Slower Deally drops and I pick it up. Then 2 Pokeballs which I proceed to pickup in his state of slowness. I get a Lugia and something else. Lugia kills him, and bust open a crate and busts open a Smash Ball. Sweet another free kill. Needless to say, the match kept going like this and I ended up 5 stocking him with 15% damage.

Long story short, items are just random luck. Seriously.

 

[shadydentist]

Poker is an invalid comparison. Poker hands are random, but spread out over the course of dozens of hands. In SSB, we get 3 stock. Theres not enough time for the randomness to sort itself out.

 

[blooagga]

Yeah cuz it's totally fair when you F-smash your opponent and a bomb falls right where your sword is landing?

 

[Skler]

Items are entirely random and can potentially ruin games of smash. For the sake of making a point we can use a situation which is possible, although very unlikely.

Let's say I'm in the finals of a tournament with thousands of dollars on the line, and all items are on (like some of you are arguing for). Items are random and spawn at random times. It's game 5 of the set (we both won 2 games each, the set is best 3 out of 5). The game begins and a starman spawns right behind me. Not being ******** I grab the starman and become invincible, easily scoring hits on my evenly matched opponent. Just as the effects fade another starman spawns right behind me. Again, I grab the starman and kick the crap out of my opponent for a while. My starman ends and yet again a starman spawns behind me, granting more invincibility. This continues throughout the entire match, there is no time when any move can damage me.

Let me ask now, did any of the items I get require skill for me to use (or even get)? All I had to do was not be brain dead and I won thousands of dollars! I'm obviously more skilled than whoever I was playing because the starmen deemed me worthy of winning. This situation can happen (although with weaker items, maybe someone constantly gets beam swords dropped behind them) and ruin any tournament game with items on.

Don't say just because it's unlikely it won't happen. It can happen, and I want to hear your arguments as to why things like that should be allowed in tournament play.

 

[Spellman]

I am not trying to stand on a pedestal and I apologize if it at any point seemed like I was stating that item players are unskilled. However, if you have read a majority of this thread (which I suggest not doing, it's too long and redundant), he has been telling us that we are limited cowards who lack the skill to adapt to items and the chaotic nature of FFA matches. I am simply stating the argument from our perspective as to why matches are played one-on-one with items removed. I have no problem with people wanting to play with items or FFA matches. Hell, I do it from time to time. It's just that these matches do not give the results we want in our tournaments.

I have actually played a lot of Mario Party, and I have to say that from my personal experience the results of matches are A LOT like a 4 person FFA Item Match in any Smash Bros. game. I played the Mario Party games quite a bit more than some of the other people I played with so I won a majority of the games. However, no matter how much better you are, there are just times when the game plays too much to your disadvantage to win. Also, if you put 4 players in the match who are relatively close in skill level (like the players likely to attend tournaments will be) you are not going to have the slightly better player taking a majority of the matches; it will be rather randomly determined with everyone having about the same win count. This goes for both games (party games are made for that sort of result, and Smash Bros. and Mario Party were created to be party games).

In Mario Party you may win the majority of the mini-games and get the most coins throughout the game, but the Stars may always appear for your opponents still giving them the victory. In Smash Bros. you may completely otherwise dominate the match but the items continuously spawn in favor of your opponents, or just in ways that straight up annihilate you with zero effort from the opponent. You may have defeated your opponent in every aspect of gameplay, but the handicap was just too much. The person with more experience may win the majority of 100 games, but you are a lot less likely to win the majority of 3-5 games (average amounts for tournaments), due to the probability of those random games that defeat you with chance appearing in the early number of matches.

Poker players may like these results, and people who like Smash Bros. for its party game characteristics may want that; however, based on the majority voice of the competitive smash scene, that's not what we want. He, however, has been responding to us in a manner as if to state that this random nature of FFA Item Matches will not in any way skew the skill of the player or the results of tournaments (even though items were given a chance and they proved to do so).

Alright, I can buy that as solid reasoning. I'm not critisizing no item play, but critisizing.. critisizing item play. I know I get rocked hard in items off matches, admittedly, when you play a lot of item matches, you limit some of your character meta-game development time. Plus, not a lot of tournament experience. I mean nobody has had that in Brawl, but in Melee, same dealie for me.

And I know Poker is random, but there is a Poker champ, and he's not just lucky, he's skilled at what he does and how he plays, and he doesn't even have ANY control over what cards are coming his way. Yet it works. That's the point I'm trying to make. In Smash, you have ALOT of control, so if that game can be controlled, than this one can. That doesn't mean every game can be controlled...

The 4 player Free for All you mention... I'd actually say that no matter what the settings, it can be overwhelming. Say for instance all your opponents take a liking to beating on you. That can happen, sometimes people pick on the strongest player first and then try to take each other out. Characters don't really have the fighting capacity to take on more than one other character, let alone hoards of equally powered and skilled players targeting them. So I can't really even come up with an explanation for how a match like that can translate to skill... maybe the skill of convincing others to side with you? Regardless, y'know.. there's only so much you can control in a match...

This lack of control over your destiny IS a lot like a new Mario Party game actually, although, the computer does the slaughtering for you. Literally anything can happen, you roll a dice for a random number, you land on a space that has a random result, and the results are so often so game crushing that the tides could turn at any time. Trading your stars and coins with your opponents, landing on a space and getting 5 stars, etc. Even the end-of-game results can hurt the ending, like, if you landed on enough green spaces, you get stars. It's like "why am I even playing the minigames". However, an older rendition of Mario Party, say the first one, was more of a skill based, and you had a lot more control over it if you were good. Controlling the mini-games meant controlling the amount of coins the players got, and as an end result, if your opponent was lucky and had stars keep spawning in front of them, they would not be able to pay for the star and you could mosey along later and pick it up. There were some lucky spaces mind you, and the green space star still existed, but those things made little difference in a standard 20 turn match. I personally wouldn't make a league out of it, Mario Party's simplicity kinda gets boring for me, but some control is available in old Mario Party games.

I'd argue that with the amount of control available to you, adding in the extra layer of the unexpected is welcome and the strategies that unfold make it worth it. I believe I am developing another skill which will help me consistently dominate items on matches. There's still a lot to see and do, and I'm not ready for everything yet, but in time, I think it will be easy as pie. Like I say, it's not for everyone, and it's not for some guy to come along and try to change the way you do things in tournaments, but putting the other persons playstyle down is pointless. Item players don't hurt anyone by playing the game, so if we think we are skilled while doing it, then so be it. It's just insulting to be put down like that. It's not like we're a nazi regime that needs to be stopped, we're just playing the game, so even if you do think that items on matches take no skill, is there really any point in saying it? It's as insulting as it is to have a bunch of people coming along putting down item off matches, which happens ALL the time. Even the topic creator took shots at items off play, maybe unknowingly, but y'know, they did. Not nice.

So yeah, that's all I've got to say, personally, I respect all styles of play. I've got no harsh words for any one really.

 

[Ragingtsunami726]

MK has interactive stage elements. Not random items. Nobody plays MK competitively anyway. Moot point on all grounds.

MvC2 and Street Fighter don't have items. At all. They're the ones with Ryu. Karate gi, red headband? Pretty famous in the 90s? When were you born, again?

Sakurai did a few things to make the game less accessible to the hardcore audience, yes. No wavedashing, no L-cancel, tripping and normalized float all say "HAY GUYZ!"

Who said I lost with items on? I don't have a problem playing with them in friendlies. The analogy made wasn't that with items on an 11 year old and a non gamer could beat me -- it was that the game becomes more to their liking. Because one is a child, and the other is playing because Squirtle is cute. They don't know what they're doing, so much.

Anyway, now that I've made an honest refutation which you'll surely ignore -- listen up. Everyone - apply this kiddo's logic to posts about him. Check this out:

DanteSmash7 has the infamous internet troll self-diagnosis "Asperger's Syndrome." What? You don't believe us? You say you don't have it?

Whatever. You're just in denial that someone who is better than you at recognizing Asperger's is telling it like it is.

Hey, not my fault you don't know how to dodge the comment. I'll be over here with the people who are pros at knowing you have Asperger's.

C WAT I DID THAR???

Excuse me? I have a friend with Asperger's. Does that make him a worse person? Seriously, what kind of *** makes disabled jokes?

Seriously, can you guys try making a point for items being "game-ruining" besides the stupid bomb/healing argument? There are a hell of a lot more items than that.

Items FTW

EDIT: Also guys, stop being such pusses about dying. You guys think items with cause the worst case scenario anytime. And whats this I hear about turning stages off? "Boohoo, I somehow didn't notice the giant laser beam the Halberd was charging..."

Why not make everyone play as the same character with the same control settings? You know, to elimiate any possible unfair advantages?

 

[Jooce Bocks]

Seriously, can you guys try making a point for items being "game-ruining" besides the stupid bomb/healing argument? There are a hell of a lot more items than that.

Items FTW

There are plenty of arguments against items, many of which can probably be dug up in this thread (I'm just not going to waste the time doing so). Healing/bombs just happen to be the most notable examples. Food/Tomatoes/Heart Containers are unfair because they take zero effort and generally go to the player who was lucky enough to be near the spawn points. Bob-ombs, Smart Bombs, and Exploding Crates/Barrels/Capsules kill at ridiculously low percentages and often times spawn in situations that kill players with zero effort from the opposing player.

Then we have the Starpower item which offers invulnerability. Don't try to defend this item by saying you need to avoid the opponent unless you have played a top tournament level player who can punish you for every move you make (which they will definitely be able to do with no risk of counterattack). Getting these stars also often require zero skill and go to the player who was lucky enough to be at the spawning point. Then we have items like the Timer that slows you down to a practically unplayable speed that leaves you completely vulnerable to the opponent. This item will also likely go to the player who happens to be nearest to it, but since items like these have a chance to backfire, they are generally only a handicap for the player in the lead. If it works on my opponent then I still have the lead; if it works on me, then I will possibly lose the lead. If I can win without the item but my opponent wins with it, then what benefit does it possibly offer me? Then we have items like Pokeballs and Assist Trophies; while not 100% game-breaking, they do offer a distinct advantage to the player who was lucky enough to be there when it spawned. There are many more items that have affects like this that I am simply not going to spend the time reviewing.

Even items that may seem fair often have ways they can be exploited by a human player. Since these items are often just given to a random player there is often no skill in obtaining the item where an unfair advantage can be given. I am not even going to go into discussion on the imbalance of different Final Smashes.

EDIT: Also guys, stop being such pusses about dying. You guys think items with cause the worst case scenario anytime. And whats this I hear about turning stages off? "Boohoo, I somehow didn't notice the giant laser beam the Halberd was charging..."

Why not make everyone play as the same character with the same control settings? You know, to elimiate any possible unfair advantages?

We're not complaining about dying, we're simply stating that there is no benefit to either player in those instances where the game does all the hard work. The fact is that items WILL cause the worst case scenario. While it may not happen 100% of the time, it happens enough that it will skew the results of tournaments.

Do you even know why stages get banned? Why does everyone assume it's because competitive players can't play on them? Stages get banned when they are EXPLOITABLE. I don't feel like explaining that further as it is pretty self-explanatory once you know the definition of the word.

There is no unfair advantage in what control setting or character that you choose. If you are playing the weakest character in the game then you have every option to choose a different one. If you are using a control setting that you feel offers less advantages than a more ideal setting then change it. Neither of these force your opponent into unfair circumstances as they have the same options available to them. Is the same true for items? No. If a Heart Container (or ANY item for that matter) spawns in your hands (which can practically happen now while you're attacking) then I do not have a fair chance to obtain its benefits.

 

[xDarkElement]

lol TRUE SKILL?
Okay basicly if your doing 1vs1 and a fan pops up, you win automaticly. Thats not what i call true skill.

 

[pyro363]

It is a true skill because if you can dodge the opponents fan attacks with like a beam sword or something thats a skill only item users know. i agree with the fact that i love items and it brings a differant skill to the game. I also can fight with or without items and i have won tournaments with and without items.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Why are people comparing this game to chance-only games.

And people are also neglecting the fact that this forum is based on competative play. Competative rules do not allow items for competative reasons. No one needs to criticize different styles of play.

Competative fighters do not allow random influences. It's like playing a match of Checkers and then randomly removing/adding pieces to each's side. It baffles me how so many people can pass this "item on=more skill" logic off as, well, logical.

If you belive that items add some fantastic element of skill, you need to contact your local tournaments, and prove to them that this is the truth. After, you need people to COME to these tournaments.

If you can do that, and change the tournament scene which has had consistentcy in its rulings since... the beginning, then come here and say that items on are better. If not, the argument ends here.

 

[blooagga]

Alright Dante, you seem fairly intelligent and I respect your opinions but that doesn't mean I will agree with them.

So tell me...


Your playing on final destination, items on normal, lets say one stock. Player one has a gold hammer spawn right next to him close to the beginning of the match, and he kills player 2

Did the better player win?

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Blooagga, that's exactly the point everyone is trying to make. It's been stated/asked so many times now and continuously evaded.

 

[COLDshiver]

This thread has gone on way longer than expected, both sides who will never give in. On one side you have a rules that have been used for years, for a good reason too, (no items) and you have a guy who truly feels that items take more skill (dante). No side will convince either and such a thread will never sway anyone.

I love items. But when you are competing for cash, real cold hard cash, randomness is frowned upon. All the hours and years a player spent to perfect his skill at a certain game (in this case SSBB) can lose a to a bomb which happened to spawn there. No, it doesn't happen all the time, but what happens if it does? Say you've beaten 50 opponents already. You're at the finals and whoever wins this round wins, say $5k. You were on your last stock, both of you at maybe 100%, and you get thrown to the side and a bob-omb appeared. You can't dodge it, you'll have to hit it. This is just one example, as many have been said throughout this long thread. The fact is that it CAN happen. Losing $5k over it will be very frustrating.

If you aren't competing, i'm all for items. Do what you want. Play with or without items, whatever your friends want. Also, a short story: Back in the day when playing with friends, halo 2 was the norm. Then sometimes I would bring Melee over and we'd maybe play a few rounds and then go back to Halo. They all wanted items on so I kept them on, didn't care. Keep in mind, they only played Melee when I brought it over, so they never really played enough to get good . Then, with the debut of the Wii, my friends got it and now we all have Brawl. The same friends who wanted items on now never want items on. Only because they got good at it and thought items are just 'annoying'. I'm not saying items are bad but me and my friends think of items as a crutch now. It gives noobies a chance. When we play with friends who don't have it, we always turns items on because they feel it's fun. But we always end up turning them off because they get on our nerves. We all hate landing on explosives, smart bombs, and all the other annoying items.

But, to conclude, do what you want. If your friends want items, play with items. If you don't like items, don't play with them. If you want to play competitively, you must follow the tourney rules (wherever you go). If they allow items, good for you. Join it and battle. If not, start your own. Dante, you won't be able persuade anyone here nor will anyone be able to persuade you. I say, start your own tourney. Start a change. Brawl is new and if you can prove that items has enough supporters and can get enough tourneys to make an impact, awesome. But as of now, no items has been the standard rule for pretty much most of the tourney scene and you will have to work hard.

But please, you cannot deny that there are instances that are undeniably unfair for one side, such as all the bob-omb instances. I'm not saying that they happen all the time, but they do happen and we all get pretty PO'd at those moments when they happen, especially if you were to lose money over it.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

This was a bad double post.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Another way to be Competitive. Try to understand.

Why are people comparing this game to chance-only games.

And people are also neglecting the fact that this forum is based on competative play. Competative rules do not allow items for competative reasons. No one needs to criticize different styles of play.

Competitive fighters do not allow random influences. It's like playing a match of Checkers and then randomly removing/adding pieces to each's side. It baffles me how so many people can pass this "item on=more skill" logic off as, well, logical.

If you belive that items add some fantastic element of skill, you need to contact your local tournaments, and prove to them that this is the truth. After, you need people to COME to these tournaments.

If you can do that, and change the tournament scene which has had consistentcy in its rulings since... the beginning, then come here and say that items on are better. If not, the argument ends here.

Who said this forum was based on competitive play?

Who said that fighting with items is not competitive?


I think there is something you "randomness haters" don't seem to understand. It IS competitive to remain dominant and survive against all other players in the chaos of item play. Every time you grab an item, you do the best you can with it. Every time your opponent grab an item, you do your best to overcome that. You may or may not die. Yo may be lucky, or not. You've got a few lives (I suggest 5 stocks for item play) . But just as in life, random things happens, and you endure, you try to be the best.

Try to understand this other competitive side of smash.

Item players accept randomness, and they want to dominate (with skills and wits) over it. So the battle is fair. You lost, there are no regrets. You win, it is glorious.

We like to move, run, jump and attack in the midst of flying items, furious pokemons, lethal assist trophies and scary final smashes. And remain alive in the end, and become winners. We are Survivors.

 

[Xengri]

This worthless thread is still here?

This has been discussed to death already. Yet, some people still want to be stubborn.
If you can't see why smash tournaments have been run with no items on for the past years, then fine, that's you. If you fail to see it by now, I doubt much would change you're mind.

Putting that aside, who cares anyway?
The vast majority of tournament players don't want items on, but if you do, then play with items. Try finding a item tournament or even hosting one.

As for the rest of us that prefer items off, we won't care about what you do. Not like we can stop you from playing with them on.
Just stop trying to convince us to change something we've been doing for years, (with great success, I might add), cause, it's not going to work.

Besides, early Smash tournaments were played with items, most of us decided we didn't like it.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Only one good thing came out of this entire thread and that was to tell us who the morons on this board are.

Congratulations, DanteSmash, Morpheus, and a few others, you're on the scrub list I'm writing up.

You are one of those close minded idiots that do not understand a thing. We understand your competitive way, but you don't understand ours.

Also, this post tell me you are an arrogant stupid kid. If you don't have anything good to say, then leave this thread.

 

[Tomotoya]

Who said this forum was based on competitive play?
We like to move, run, jump and attack in the midst of flying items, furious pokemons, lethal assist trophies and scary final smashes. And remain alive in the end, and become winners.

That's wonderful.
I like to string combos together, space properly, utilize timing and mindgames, and basically just outplay my opponent instead of having a coincidental occurance do it for me.

Do I go to tournaments?
No.

Do the people I play with?
No.

But we don't play with items because they are annoying.
Anything that removes interaction generally reduces the fun factor.
And Items tend to do that.

 

[Darkslash]

I really think a no item rule is fair. A Scrub can use items and win. the question is can a item user win with out items?

 

[A New Challenger]

Excuse me? I have a friend with Asperger's. Does that make him a worse person? Seriously, what kind of *** makes disabled jokes?

Your friend has a fake disorder. You're excused.

OH NOES! INTERNETZ HAS OFFENDED ME!

 

[Thino]

Who said this forum was based on competitive play?

Who said that fighting with items is not competitive?


I think there is something you "randomness haters" don't seem to understand. It IS competitive to remain dominant and survive against all other players in the chaos of item play. Every time you grab an item, you do the best you can with it. Every time your opponent grab an item, you do your best to overcome that. You may or may not die. Yo may be lucky, or not. You've got a few lives (I suggest 5 stocks for item play) . But just as in life, random things happens, and you endure, you try to be the best.

Try to understand this other competitive side of smash.

Item players accept randomness, and they want to dominate (with skills and wits) over it. So the battle is fair. You lost, there are no regrets. You win, it is glorious.

We like to move, run, jump and attack in the midst of flying items, furious pokemons, lethal assist trophies and scary final smashes. And remain alive in the end, and become winners. We are Survivors.

what you seem not to understand is that we dont criticize (at least , I dont) the competitiveness of items , dont compare a game to life ,we do not play competitive life or try to make life fair its a stupid comparison lol , item players accepting randomness and wanting to dominate doesnt make the game fair , or you got a wrong definition of being fair

We like to move, run, jump and attack in the midst of flying items, furious pokemons, lethal assist trophies and scary final smashes. And remain alive in the end, and become winners. We are Survivors.

you like, that mean its your opinion , we do not care about that, moreover we also remain alive in the end , and become winners and we are also survivors . after making statements like that , dont dare tell me you understand or try to understand tournament playing.

just explain how items randomness make the game fair and dont give arguments like "we want to dominate" cuz who doesnt? or "item players accept randomness" guess what? tournament players don't. but I think we all know that already dont state the obvious.

you said it yourself , you may be lucky or not.

luck =/= fairness , how can you not understand something so simple and spread thorough the thread?

 

[Ragingtsunami726]

How much does it cost on average to enter a tournament? You don't "lose" the prize money, you never had it! Everyone loses at things. It happens.

Not too many people make a living playing video games. Some may, but not too many.

The rest of you have other sources of income. It isn't like losing the prize will make you poor.

Also, who would play a one on one match with one stock on Final Destanation and leave items on? A match like that is too short, even I'll say that.

 

[Thino]

its more about the winning prize being fair than the amount of money you spend entering the tournament, making a living of video games or not

 

[UltiMario]

I really think a no item rule is fair. A Scrub can use items and win. the question is can a item user win with out items?

This is the shortest, most staight to the point, meaningful posts I have seen so far.
2 sentances that may either shorten the thread, or make it much, much longer.
I hope it shortens it.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

There should be Item 4 FFA Tournaments too

what you seem not to understand is that we dont criticize (at least , I dont) the competitiveness of items , dont compare a game to life ,we do not play competitive life or try to make life fair its a stupid comparison lol , item players accepting randomness and wanting to dominate doesnt make the game fair , or you got a wrong definition of being fair

We like to move, run, jump and attack in the midst of flying items, furious pokemons, lethal assist trophies and scary final smashes. And remain alive in the end, and become winners. We are Survivors.

you like, that mean its your opinion , we do not care about that, moreover we also remain alive in the end , and become winners and we are also survivors . after making statements like that , dont dare tell me you understand or try to understand tournament playing.

just explain how items randomness make the game fair and dont give arguments like "we want to dominate" cuz who doesnt? or "item players accept randomness" guess what? tournament players don't. but I think we all know that already dont state the obvious.

you said it yourself , you may be lucky or not.

luck =/= fairness , how can you not understand something so simple and spread thorough the thread?

Comparing the game to life is not a stupid comparison. It is said that the best video game should be like life itself. That was explained by a great designer. So the stupid here, is you.

You are so close minded that you don't get anything I say. Discussing with you is like wasting my time, really. For the community, and not for you, I will try to explain my point.

If you and I accept randomness and luck flow, the battle is fair, because we both agreed to that. If you don't get this, you should worry.

You are comparing what I said about remaining alive with no item play. Don't you really get it? Off course you keep alive 1 vs 1 no items. Off course a player dominates. But it is **ing different!! Can you really compare a 1 vs 1 no item"fight" with a 4 FFA item "mayhem" . Can't you really accept that this other way is much more of a survival thing? Come on, It's common sense.

The "I like" statement means that I recognize both types of competitive spirit. But I prefer this other one. And I try to make you understand how and why it is competitive too. It deserves some respect many of you aren't willing to give. So I am trying to stimulate your brain to think a little more. I don't like to do it in this rude manner, but hey, I am tired of arrogant fools who talks with authority because they go to tournaments and stuff.

Also, that tournament play you speak off is just 1 type of play, 1 type of tournament people have been playing. But that is really turning Smash Bros into a Fighting game, cutting a lot of it. I am not against that. That should keep going and it is ok. But it is FAIR that there is also a tournament were people try to be the best, playing with everything the game brings (and I mean Items and multiplayer battles).

 

[MorpheusVGX]

The FEAR to randomness

This is the shortest, most staight to the point, meaningful posts I have seen so far.
2 sentances that may either shorten the thread, or make it much, much longer.
I hope it shortens it.

Hmmm... this just demonstrates a theory of mine. Many tournament elitist are afraid they loose to someone weaker because of items. It is FEAR, just pure an plain. They don't feel capable of dominating a weaker opponent, even with items on. They don't feel capable of winning even with randomness and luck involved. As they realize that to overcome a weaker opponent with consistency, having randomness involved, they need to be much more skilled and superior than his enemies: They cowardly refuse.

 

[Iwan]

Excuse me? I have a friend with Asperger's. Does that make him a worse person? Seriously, what kind of *** makes disabled jokes?

Seriously, can you guys try making a point for items being "game-ruining" besides the stupid bomb/healing argument? There are a hell of a lot more items than that.

Items FTW

EDIT: Also guys, stop being such pusses about dying. You guys think items with cause the worst case scenario anytime. And whats this I hear about turning stages off? "Boohoo, I somehow didn't notice the giant laser beam the Halberd was charging..."

Why not make everyone play as the same character with the same control settings? You know, to elimiate any possible unfair advantages?

No one said items were "game ruining". Its just that they have no place in competitive gaming. period.

 

[Ragingtsunami726]

Hmmm... this just demonstrates a theory of mine. Many tournament elitist are afraid they loose to someone weaker because of items. It is FEAR, just pure an plain. They don't feel capable of dominating a weaker opponent, even with items on. They don't feel capable of winning even with randomness and luck involved. As they realize that to overcome a weaker opponent with consistency, having randomness involved, they need to be much more skilled and superior than his enemies: They cowardly refuse.

I agree wholeheartedly.

For the record, my friends play with items off, and I can beat them. Not always, but I can.

Also, it is completely fair if a bomb kills you if those were the rules agreed upon. I don't try to change the rules on something I can't win, I try to get BETTER!

 

[Thino]

Comparing the game to life is not a stupid comparison. It is said that the best video game should be like life itself. That was explained by a great designer. So the stupid here, is you.

You are so close minded that you don't get anything I say. Discussing with you is like wasting my time, really. For the community, and not for you, I will try to explain my point.

If you and I accept randomness and luck flow, the battle is fair, because we both agreed to that. If you don't get this, you should worry.

You are comparing what I said about remaining alive with no item play. Don't you really get it? Off course you keep alive 1 vs 1 no items. Off course a player dominates. But it is **ing different!! Can you really compare a 1 vs 1 no item"fight" with a 4 FFA item "mayhem" . Can't you really accept that this other way is much more of a survival thing? Come on, It's common sense.

The "I like" statement means that I recognize both types of competitive spirit. But I prefer this other one. And I try to make you understand how and why it is competitive too. It deserves some respect many of you aren't willing to give. So I am trying to stimulate your brain to think a little more. I don't like to do it in this rude manner, but hey, I am tired of arrogant fools who talks with authority because they go to tournaments and stuff.

Also, that tournament play you speak off is just 1 type of play, 1 type of tournament people have been playing. But that is really turning Smash Bros into a Fighting game, cutting a lot of it. I am not against that. That should keep going and it is ok. But it is FAIR that there is also a tournament were people try to be the best, playing with everything the game brings (and I mean Items and multiplayer battles).

first off, there are items tournaments.



so because a great designer said it its entirely true? that doesnt prove anything sorry. Smash isnt Sims.
make you own points instead of taking someone else's.


close-minded? me? how so? I prefer you to continue trying to make valid points like you were in the beginning instead of being rude , throwing ******** insults when I only said your comparison is stupid , not you, and complaining about authority to run away from the argument. cry more.



4 players FFAs are more survival but at the end its the same goal , I'm not getting the point you're trying to make here , its much more a matter of taste if you prefer "mayhem" to "fights" or the other way around.


those disrespecting playing with items are elitists , hated by both sides, we are not talking about them here.


but before continuing this argument I want to know your definition of "fair". I dont think we can continue if we dont agree on that and maybe it will make me understand.

Hmmm... this just demonstrates a theoryof mine. Many tournament elitist are afraid they loose to someoneweaker because of items. It is FEAR, just pure an plain. They don'tfeel capable of dominating a weaker opponent, even with items on. Theydon't feel capable of winning even with randomness and luck involved.As they realize that to overcome a weaker opponent with consistency,having randomness involved, they need to be much more skilled andsuperior than his enemies: They cowardly refuse.

Hmmm... this just demonstrates a theory of mine. Many scrubs areafraid they loose to someone stronger because of the lack of items. ItisFEAR, just pure an plain. They don't feel capable of dominating astronger opponent, without the help of items. They don't feel capableof winning witout randomness and luck involved. As they realize that toovercome a stronger opponent with consistency, without randomnessinvolved, they need to be much more skilled and superior than hisenemies: They cowardly refuse.


prove me wrong lol

 

[FalconPunch]

What most fail to realize is that were talking about Highly skilled vs Skilled with Items on. Not M2K vs Scrub #34. Since the skill level is so close, any random occurrence can favor the lucky enough for them to win, enough if they wouldn't have without it.

 

[Shack]

if items rnt used in tourneys, whats the point in getting good at using them unless ur jsut playign friendlies with ur friends?

 

[Tomotoya]

What most fail to realize is that were talking about Highly skilled vs Skilled with Items on. Not M2K vs Scrub #34. Since the skill level is so close, any random occurrence can favor the lucky enough for them to win, enough if they wouldn't have without it.

Very true.

Hmmm... this just demonstrates a theoryof mine. Many tournament elitist are afraid they loose to someoneweaker because of items. It is FEAR, just pure an plain. They don'tfeel capable of dominating a weaker opponent, even with items on. Theydon't feel capable of winning even with randomness and luck involved.As they realize that to overcome a weaker opponent with consistency,having randomness involved, they need to be much more skilled andsuperior than his enemies: They cowardly refuse.

Seriously guys, this entire topic can be summed up with this picture.

 

[Imp]

Didn't bother to read the whole thread for this soul reason:
The author's join date is March 2008, the likelihood of him ever being in the competitive side of Melee, or any smash prior to Brawl is near implausible. If you know nothing of the competitive style of game play, how can you ever expect to change it? This is why you can't be the president of a country and not have ever lived in it. It is impossible for you to know the other person's view of the subject.

Items are more fun, for casual players. Casual players game play will never be accepted in the professional/competitive style. No pro I know is afraid of items, nor am I, in fact in a fun game with friends I prefer it. But when it whittles down to a skilled 1v1 or a team battle, items will always be turned off in my book.

DanteSmash7, you have a very moot point and are preaching to the wrong crowd. I'm positive you already know that, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. This is a fruitless thread, and you will receive nothing from it aside from being looked down upon.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

I agree wholeheartedly.

For the record, my friends play with items off, and I can beat them. Not always, but I can.
Let me tell you this. You and your friends are not the universal smash arbiters of skill. This information is completely anecdotal.

Also, it is completely fair if a bomb kills you if those were the rules agreed upon.
There is a chance of a bomb killing me. Chance is a synonym of luck, and luck is unrelated to skill. If the winner of the match is decided by luck than how does one determine the more skillful player?

I don't try to change the rules on something I can't win, I try to get BETTER!
You cannot become better if are incapable of having and open mind and if you keep playing in the sandbox.

Still waiting for Mario Kart Wii... to aid purge these forums.

 

[blooagga]

OMFG ROFL MORPHEUS!!!!!!

If the developers wanted to make smash bros more like real life they wouldn't have added a blue hedgehog, an electric mouse, a floating hand, a world where you die by flying off of a small platform and turning into a shiny trophy

if they wanted it to be realistic they would have had you be a human that goes to work everyday and eats ham sandwiches