so is ike high tier then?

[e105beta]

ike will probably be middle tier. speed > power
speed usually dominates competive play.
and its hard for ike to fighte chars. with good projectiles like
snake. mine prevent ike's side b and grenades and missles hinders
ike's ability to get close.

But brawl is slower, Hmmm?

e10, you are my unofficial nemesis, you cant agree with me!!! =O

Meh, we'll have to wait til more people have the game...also, we have to wait a year. >_>

Who cares for tier lists, we'll settle this rivalry on the playing field. Till March 9th.

*Agrees with Ike statement

Erm, this thread has nothing to with Yoshi.

*Semi-agrees with Ike statement. High-tier or bust!

 

[SCOTU]

Brawl being slower only makes speed that much more important. Ike has NO game against projectiles. His recovery does have issues. Ike will have difficult times hitting faster opponents because they could just get out of the way. Well, you might counter with: "that's what prediction is for" but you'd be wrong because someone of equal skill could predict your attack as well as they can predict your movement.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stick with fast moves. Use Fair and Nair for zoning/containment.

Use Quick Draw to get around.

When I saw no slow moves I mean it.

NO SMASHES AT ALL!!!! Unless that **** is gauran-****ing-teed to hit.

Abuse his jab combo/jab cancel stuff.

His weak recovery and weakness against projectiles is why he is high tier and not higher IMO.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Who cares for tier lists, we'll settle this rivalry on the playing field. Till March 9th.

An official challenge!

*Dramatic entrance in poof of smoke

DUEEELLLL MOSNTEERRS!

lol, You wanna play on launch day? That'd be my third challenge. XD

 

[comboking]

can't we do a TGM combo Dash Attack to smashattack and who ever said he will be middle tier i think your right IMO

 

[comboking]

can't we do a TGM combo Dash Attack to smashattack and who ever said he will be middle tier i think your right IMO

 

[e105beta]

Brawl being slower only makes speed that much more important. Ike has NO game against projectiles. His recovery does have issues. Ike will have difficult times hitting faster opponents because they could just get out of the way. Well, you might counter with: "that's what prediction is for" but you'd be wrong because someone of equal skill could predict your attack as well as they can predict your movement.

First, not really. If Brawl is slower, then characters can be slower. Ok, now that that has been cleared up...

Limit your use of moves with wind-up time and stick with Uair, Dair, Nair, Bair, down smash, and forward tilt. Quick draw works too and aether is actually good for approach believe it or not. I just don't believe all the speed-tards from melee have developed enough timing skills to use Ike. That's why they go, "OP! No speed means low tier."

An official challenge!

*Dramatic entrance in poof of smoke

DUEEELLLL MOSNTEERRS!

lol, You wanna play on launch day? That'd be my third challenge. XD

No, Ima having a brawl party on launch day. But it's still an official challenge.

IT'S TIME TO...D...D...D......D......D....DDDDD....DUEL! *OOHWAOW!*

 

[payasofobia]

i have a question, arent you people making this 'projectile **** ike' a big deal. i mean ,normally this things look harder said than done

 

[blue_dragon]

An official challenge!

*Dramatic entrance in poof of smoke

DUEEELLLL MOSNTEERRS!

lol, You wanna play on launch day? That'd be my third challenge. XD

And here's your fourth. I will play Pit against your Ike out of spite though.

 

[e105beta]

i have a question, arent you people making this 'projectile **** ike' a big deal. i mean ,normally this things look harder said than done

Yes, yes they are. It's not THAT easy to projectile beat somebody, much less projectile ****. Now while my self have said that Brawl is a lot different then melee, I'm going to use melee as an example:
I play a very skilled Samus player at least 4 times a weak (not matches, just sessions), and about 60% of the matches go in my favor. Oh, btw, about 3/4 of those victories are with Ganondorf. Wait, whaaaaaat? Ganondorf is slow, so Samus should projectile **** him. Uh, no. With a few jumps and a few dodges, I can manage to charge all the way across final destination and stomp him into oblivion.

So Ike is slow, so what? Large slower charged projectiles can be countered (not advisable, but suggested in some cases) and many can be jumped over/dodged/shielded/super-framed (if necessary, but like countering, not necessarily advisable).

Speed freaks just can't stand that a slow character can be high tier, so they're trying to come up with someway to make Ike sound bad. He has flaws, and I can name quite a few, but these are getting too amplified to be credible.

 

[Falconv1.0]

And here's your fourth. I will play Pit against your Ike out of spite though.

=D

THE LIST

Slash (FE Forum)
Cless (FE Forum)
A2ZOMG
Xtinction
e105beta
Blue Dragon

XD ****ing awesome.

 

[Zukaza]

First, not really. If Brawl is slower, then characters can be slower. Ok, now that that has been cleared up...

Limit your use of moves with wind-up time and stick with Uair, Dair, Nair, Bair, down smash, and forward tilt. Quick draw works too and aether is actually good for approach believe it or not. I just don't believe all the speed-tards from melee have developed enough timing skills to use Ike. That's why they go, "OP! No speed means low tier."

No, Ima having a brawl party on launch day. But it's still an official challenge.

IT'S TIME TO...D...D...D......D......D....DDDDD....DUEL! *OOHWAOW!*

This guy e105beta knows his stuff eh? You tell him, Ike is the counter against all characters. There is high tier, then there is... Ike TIER!!!

 

[Falconv1.0]

This guy e105beta knows his stuff eh? You tell him, Ike is the counter against all characters. There is high tier, then there is... Ike TIER!!!

...ok...you can go away now.

There is no way of one character everyone's counter. Ike is not hard to gay with Snake, and vice versa, Marth cant really approach Ike.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why can't Marth approach Ike? I thought Marth's range was greater and his tipper was better for keeping away from Ike's attacks. From what I hear Ike has to hit with the cneter of his blade to get the most of his attack out.

 

[Zukaza]

...ok...you can go away now.

There is no way of one character everyone's counter. Ike is not hard to gay with Snake, and vice versa, Marth cant really approach Ike.

I guess your right about him not being everyone's counter. But, even if the Snake can gay Ike pretty easily, Its all about player skill. How is Snake going to gay Ike if he cant even get any hits on him. And about Marth not being able to approach Ike? How is that so?

 

[e105beta]

...ok...you can go away now.

There is no way of one character everyone's counter. Ike is not hard to gay with Snake, and vice versa, Marth cant really approach Ike.

Nobody is a counter to ALL characters...and yeah, if anyone can **** Ike, it is definitely Snake. But I'm biased since I like Snake more than Ike...............!

It's hard for close range to approach Ike, because while you are, Ike is winding up his forward smash....

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Why can't Marth approach Ike? I thought Marth's range was greater and his tipper was better for keeping away from Ike's attacks. From what I hear Ike has to hit with the cneter of his blade to get the most of his attack out.

1. Marth doesn't have greater range than Ike, I believe. He would if it was Melee, but they shortened his range in Brawl.

2. According to study done by someone here on SWF, Ike's tip and center do the same thing most of the time, it's the hilt that changes the properties.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Why can't Marth approach Ike? I thought Marth's range was greater and his tipper was better for keeping away from Ike's attacks. From what I hear Ike has to hit with the cneter of his blade to get the most of his attack out.

Dude, if you are here to debate something, atleast know the very basic ****ing facts. Everyone knows that Marth is out ranged by Ike, AND HIS TIPPER WAS REDUCED. Even if you haven't heard that, you can look at them, and see Ragnell is ****ing huge next to Falchion.

LURK MOAR.

Zusaka, dont make strange arguments. If the other player is better, then he'll win anyways...>_>

Such arguments are based off potential, not player skill....>_>

 

[payasofobia]

there are two video in youtube that shows ike fighting snake 2 times, and both of those times, ike won

im sure a lot of you already saw this video, im just posting it to everyone that hasnt seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMnOIzFKhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b7rLSB_zmI&feature=related
ike doesnt seem bad fighting against snake

 

[SCOTU]

First, not really. If Brawl is slower, then characters can be slower. Ok, now that that has been cleared up...

Limit your use of moves with wind-up time and stick with Uair, Dair, Nair, Bair, down smash, and forward tilt. Quick draw works too and aether is actually good for approach believe it or not. I just don't believe all the speed-tards from melee have developed enough timing skills to use Ike. That's why they go, "OP! No speed means low tier."



No, Ima having a brawl party on launch day. But it's still an official challenge.

IT'S TIME TO...D...D...D......D......D....DDDDD....DUEL! *OOHWAOW!*

NO. if the game is slower, the characters who are slowest are hurt the most. If there is a fast character in a slow game, they'll have an advantage. They'll have a significantly easier time getting inside a slower characters range. They'll have more/ better attack opportunities due to the lag the slower character has. They'll more easily be able to dodge attacks and punish in return. They'll leave themselves open less because of a lack of lag, and the ability to move around.
@ developing timing skills? lol. timing carries over from melee, or at least the ability to learn timings. It doesn't take someone used to slow characters to learn a slow character or vice versa.

Yes, yes they are. It's not THAT easy to projectile beat somebody, much less projectile ****. Now while my self have said that Brawl is a lot different then melee, I'm going to use melee as an example:
I play a very skilled Samus player at least 4 times a weak (not matches, just sessions), and about 60% of the matches go in my favor. Oh, btw, about 3/4 of those victories are with Ganondorf. Wait, whaaaaaat? Ganondorf is slow, so Samus should projectile **** him. Uh, no. With a few jumps and a few dodges, I can manage to charge all the way across final destination and stomp him into oblivion.

Ike has no way to approach someone who is projectile camping.

First off, who is this "very skilled Samus player" who you (who i've never heard of in terms of skill) beat 60% of the time. I first off doubt their skill (or what you claim it to be anyway). Samus does projectile **** ganon. But samus isn't the best example (her **** can be beat out with attacks). Falco is a better example. Falco can run away and Mathos all over you for all day. Doesn't even matter what character. Slower characters, with no projectiles, on the other hand get totally frowndged by falco because they can't approach him, and they can't counter-camp. If you try to approach him with any sloppyness, he'll either punish you, or get away and keep Mathosing you. There are more characters in Brawl with not blockable projectiles than in melee. Also, without the ability to affectively approach a mobile character from the air (floatiness of brawl), and the lack of wavelanding on platforms to allow faster evasive approaches, slower characters will have no counter to the projectile camp.

So Ike is slow, so what? Large slower charged projectiles can be countered (not advisable, but suggested in some cases) and many can be jumped over/dodged/shielded/super-framed (if necessary, but like countering, not necessarily advisable).

These don't get you anywhere. The just get you continued camped if not punished. It's very common in melee to follow up a projetile with a grab (if you shielded) or an aerial to catch you out of your jump. The other options are just additional ways to get yourself frowndged.

Speed freaks just can't stand that a slow character can be high tier, so they're trying to come up with someway to make Ike sound bad. He has flaws, and I can name quite a few, but these are getting too amplified to be credible.

It's not that slow characters can't be high tier. It's just that there's a reason they aren't in melee. It's because they have a tough time fighting faster characters. If all your attacks can easily be avoided (and then followed up by punishment), how is that character doing any good?



on another topic: if you're saying "lol Ike can be good, just use only 6 of his attacks", that's not good. That's bad. If Ike only has fair, bair, QD, Aether, utilt, and jabs as legitimately usable attacks, that's pretty sucky. Other characters have a wide range of moves that can be used effectively. You might try to counter with "well, those are all the attacks Ike needs", but you'd be stupid. If you only use a few attacks, it's easy to figure out your spacing. You need a variety of attacks for each situation, and this is one of the major places where Ike is losing out.

It addition to him having only a very limited selection of attacks according to many Ike supporters, he has one of the easier recoveries to edgeguard, he has no projectile/ camping game, and he has piss-poor mobility.

Don't get me wrong here guys, i like Ike a lot, and he's my favorite character (and the one i've played the most), it's just that you've got to be realistic when saying how good he is. He isn't that good. He's kind of like Ganon in melee (powerful, with good range and bad recovery), but without the techniques that speed ganon up (wavelanding, l canceling, FFing during attacks); and ganon's low in mid tier.

edit: one last comment: Ike's edgeguard is sub par as well. (before you go saying "well he has a billion meteors" look at Kirby in melee).

 

[Falconv1.0]

Scotu took my argument. Bah.

Well, I dont agree with ALL of that, but a lot of it...

scotu, you have played the game...right?

 

[SCOTU]

Yes. I've played it. I've also mostly played Ike.

Also, these FE debates at FEP are starting to affect my smashboards posting as well...

 

[VersatileBJN]

I think Up Smash can be added to that list of useable moves in his arsenal. Counter as well. Definitely up smash after watching how Azen was using it vs Chillin.

Down smash as well for it's speed. Post-PS option anyone?


Don't know if you guys who already have the game have been experimenting with Eruption, but I'm sure the Super Armor frames at the end have to have SOME kind of use.

Scotu, you're getting American Brawl right? Trying to network so I can play solid players from the get go.

 

[SCOTU]

I was just listing moves people were saying when they were saying: "only use his good moves lol". Personally, i think Ike is awesome Tier (kind of like roy). Eruption's slow as hell. Only use i've gotten for it was a super low shffl'd eruption to catch someone above me.

Yes, i'm gettig American Brawl (or at least my roomate is), unless the online play turns out exceptionally better than i think, i'm probably going to stick to mainly in MI play (exceptions can be made of course). What makes you think i'm a solid player?

 

[e105beta]

Gack! Double Post!!! See next one...

 

[e105beta]

NO. if the game is slower, the characters who are slowest are hurt the most. If there is a fast character in a slow game, they'll have an advantage. They'll have a significantly easier time getting inside a slower characters range. They'll have more/ better attack opportunities due to the lag the slower character has. They'll more easily be able to dodge attacks and punish in return. They'll leave themselves open less because of a lack of lag, and the ability to move around.
@ developing timing skills? lol. timing carries over from melee, or at least the ability to learn timings. It doesn't take someone used to slow characters to learn a slow character or vice versa.

Your logic only works if the fast stay the same speed and the slow get slower. If the fastest characters slow down about 2 or 3 notches (*cough cough Brawl*) and the slower characters slow down about 1, the faster characters are at a lesser position then they were in melee.
@rebuttal to timing: yes timing carries over from melee, but not to the extent that it exists in brawl. Also, fast characters require less timing because their attacks come out quick-instantly. I'm not saying melee doesn't have timing, brawl just has more.

Ike has no way to approach someone who is projectile camping.

First off, who is this "very skilled Samus player" who you (who i've never heard of in terms of skill) beat 60% of the time. I first off doubt their skill (or what you claim it to be anyway). Samus does projectile **** ganon. But samus isn't the best example (her **** can be beat out with attacks). Falco is a better example. Falco can run away and Mathos all over you for all day. Doesn't even matter what character. Slower characters, with no projectiles, on the other hand get totally frowndged by falco because they can't approach him, and they can't counter-camp. If you try to approach him with any sloppyness, he'll either punish you, or get away and keep Mathosing you. There are more characters in Brawl with not blockable projectiles than in melee. Also, without the ability to affectively approach a mobile character from the air (floatiness of brawl), and the lack of wavelanding on platforms to allow faster evasive approaches, slower characters will have no counter to the projectile camp.

These don't get you anywhere. The just get you continued camped if not punished. It's very common in melee to follow up a projetile with a grab (if you shielded) or an aerial to catch you out of your jump. The other options are just additional ways to get yourself frowndged.

LIEZ! (I'll address this when I get to your second paragraph...)

Yeah, I don't really play pros that much (Leik, twice?), and I doubt you know the entire smash community, so I guess that wasn't the greatest example, I was just trying to set the mindset.

First of all, what is "to Mathos?" sounds liek a name...
Also, the problem with your argument is:
A: If Mathos IS a person, then we get into a skill level argument....
B: You just say "Oh, this happens, therefore, the opponent cannot do anything." The only thing I know about melee that is set in stone is that stupid Ice Climber-infinity grab-down air thing, and even that's breakable (sometimes...). You haven't actually said WHY my dodging\jumping\rolling\etc. strategy doesn't work, you just said that it doesn't and threw Mathos at me (??? Is it the short hop, blaster, blaster thing? If so...)

I find the floatiness helpful in approaching from the air

I have destroyed a fair amount of projectile campers with some well place Ike B (super armor helps) and down A, and some dodging\jumping\rolling\etc.

Also, I only brought melee into it since I don't have EXTENSIVE brawl experience and not everybody's played brawl. Proving to me that fast characters are really good in melee doesn't do much for the conversation...

It's not that slow characters can't be high tier. It's just that there's a reason they aren't in melee. It's because they have a tough time fighting faster characters. If all your attacks can easily be avoided (and then followed up by punishment), how is that character doing any good?

Ok...but that's melee............and even then I partially disagree with that statement, but not enough to start a new line of argument.

on another topic: if you're saying "lol Ike can be good, just use only 6 of his attacks", that's not good. That's bad. If Ike only has fair, bair, QD, Aether, utilt, and jabs as legitimately usable attacks, that's pretty sucky. Other characters have a wide range of moves that can be used effectively. You might try to counter with "well, those are all the attacks Ike needs", but you'd be stupid. If you only use a few attacks, it's easy to figure out your spacing. You need a variety of attacks for each situation, and this is one of the major places where Ike is losing out.

It addition to him having only a very limited selection of attacks according to many Ike supporters, he has one of the easier recoveries to edgeguard, he has no projectile/ camping game, and he has piss-poor mobility.

You know what? If I was saying that, you're right, that's bad and stupid, and I can easily see how you picked that up. I worded it wrong. It was a suggestion for people to used to Ike, since those are some of his easier moves to nail people with. I use all of his moves (except counter...). B is a useful move for aerial approaching, attacking, edgeguarding, and defending. Forward B is good for recovery (when you've gotten knock really far off the screen, yes you can be gimped! Anyone who plays Ike knows this, but saying "Forward B can be gimped in certain situations, therefore, Ike sucks, is stupid...), approach (*GASP*), and sometimes attacking. Up B is just useful for countless situations. Down B is my least favorite Ike move. Dair is great for aerial attacking, Nair is good for multiple things since it attacks at about 300 degrees around him, Fair is probably his worst aerial because of the startup which you don't want in air, and Bair is quick release and fairly strong. Forward smash has god strength and startup, but should be used when possible, Up smash has a lag, but it's powerful and has a wide hit range. Down smash is fast. Up tilt is an ok move, as is his down (which can spike, good for use when somebody's trying to recover from the bottom). Forward tilt fairly fast and fairly strong. Jabs are...jabs.

Not everyone has projectile game, but amazingly, their still good (WTF???!?!?!!) Projectile game and having/not having it CAN, but does not make or break it for a character.
Also, why does everyone say he has horrible mobility. Ok, so he's not Sheik or Fox, or maybe even Link (personally he's seems AROUND that area, if not a bit under) but he's much better than Ganondorf or Bowser.

Don't get me wrong here guys, i like Ike a lot, and he's my favorite character (and the one i've played the most), it's just that you've got to be realistic when saying how good he is. He isn't that good. He's kind of like Ganon in melee (powerful, with good range and bad recovery), but without the techniques that speed ganon up (wavelanding, l canceling, FFing during attacks); and ganon's low in mid tier.

edit: one last comment: Ike's edgeguard is sub par as well. (before you go saying "well he has a billion meteors" look at Kirby in melee).

I am being realistic. You don't see me going: "OMG IKE IS TEH 1337 WINZ! NOBODY CAN BEAT HIM! IKE FOR GOD TIER! HE HAS NO FLAWS AND THEY SHOULD MAKE A GAME CALLED SUPER SMASH BROTHERS IKE WHERE YOU PLAY AS THE 6 (?) FORMS OF IKE!" Well, I might have somewhere, but it's always been jokingly. Let me lay out some of Ike's flaws.
1. He is slow. This is a fact.
2. His strongest moves sometimes have a fair bit of windup/lag
3. His recovery isn't the best, and in some cases, can be so badly gimped, you might as well be fighting Mario.
4. He can't really combo. I've been able to pull of like 2/3 hit combos, if you can even call them combos.

See? Ike has flaws. I am not saying he doesn't, I'm just saying their overblown.

Next...

Dude, if you are here to debate something, atleast know the very basic ****ing facts. Everyone knows that Marth is out ranged by Ike, AND HIS TIPPER WAS REDUCED. Even if you haven't heard that, you can look at them, and see Ragnell is ****ing huge next to Falchion.

LURK MOAR.

Zusaka, dont make strange arguments. If the other player is better, then he'll win anyways...>_>

Such arguments are based off potential, not player skill....>_>

Marth has been nerfed, and I don't like it. His range is weak sauce compared to the days of yore.

fobia;4012052]there are two video in youtube that shows ike fighting snake 2 times, and both of those times, ike won

im sure a lot of you already saw this video, im just posting it to everyone that hasnt seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMnOIzFKhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b7rLSB_zmI&feature=related
ike doesnt seem bad fighting against snake[/QUOTE]

Skill level in those videos is not....maximum....yeah....


WOW, that was long. I probably forgot something...











Apparently I did...

I was just listing moves people were saying when they were saying: "only use his good moves lol". Personally, i think Ike is awesome Tier (kind of like roy). Eruption's slow as hell. Only use i've gotten for it was a super low shffl'd eruption to catch someone above me.

Yes, i'm gettig American Brawl (or at least my roomate is), unless the online play turns out exceptionally better than i think, i'm probably going to stick to mainly in MI play (exceptions can be made of course). What makes you think i'm a solid player?

Eruption has super armor and...wait "Awesome tier?" Does this fall someplace between low and mid tier??

What makes anyone think ANY of us are solid players...because I doubt many of us are (I don't think I am...define solid). Besides, you're good.

 

[Zankoku]

Awesome tier is the tier just above God tier and just below Absolutely amazing tier (of which Captain Falcon belongs in). Mathos is a Midwest Falco player best known for being the most laser-spam happy Falco player in the world.

 

[Mr.C]

@ beta

Are you even part of the high-level competitive scene? Have you ever played Pc chris, ken, m2k, 4ward, caveman, etcetc anyone who is actually good in the states? or even placed well at any major tournaments? if not...then why are you here pretending you know things about how smash works. lol

 

[CCC07]

But brawl is slower, Hmmm?

what does that have to do wit it? a projectile is a projectile.

some char. can literally keep ike at bay with just pojectiles
which limits his choices of approaching. he can try to short hop
air attack. but most likely a good player will just shield it and grab.

 

[HiddenBowser]

What makes you think i'm a solid player?

Stop being so modest... Like seriously, stop. Its getting on my nerves.

 

[CCC07]

LIEZ! (I'll address this when I get to your second paragraph...)

Yeah, I don't really play pros that much (Leik, twice?), and I doubt you know the entire smash community, so I guess that wasn't the greatest example, I was just trying to set the mindset.

First of all, what is "to Mathos?" sounds liek a name...
Also, the problem with your argument is:
A: If Mathos IS a person, then we get into a skill level argument....
B: You just say "Oh, this happens, therefore, the opponent cannot do anything." The only thing I know about melee that is set in stone is that stupid Ice Climber-infinity grab-down air thing, and even that's breakable (sometimes...). You haven't actually said WHY my dodging\jumping\rolling\etc. strategy doesn't work, you just said that it doesn't and threw Mathos at me (??? Is it the short hop, blaster, blaster thing? If so...)

I find the floatiness helpful in approaching from the air

I have destroyed a fair amount of projectile campers with some well place Ike B (super armor helps) and down A, and some dodging\jumping\rolling\etc.

Also, I only brought melee into it since I don't have EXTENSIVE brawl experience and not everybody's played brawl. Proving to me that fast characters are really good in melee doesn't do much for the conversation...

)

I find the floatiness helpful in approaching from the air ; are you kidding me?
falco is one of the best in the air ; even if you try an air attack falco will just shield grab.

if you side dodge a projectile you will only be hurting yourself because of the lag.

ike only has a few ways of approaching and a good player will exploit this .

saying that you destroyed a fair amount of projectile campers is with some well place Ike B (super armor helps) and down A, and some dodging\jumping\rolling\etc. irrelavant because
in high level play your opponent will always read your movements .

ike is just at a disadvantage .

 

[e105beta]

@ beta

Are you even part of the high-level competitive scene? Have you ever played Pc chris, ken, m2k, 4ward, caveman, etcetc anyone who is actually good in the states? or even placed well at any major tournaments? if not...then why are you here pretending you know things about how smash works. lol

You don't have to be part of a high level playing scene to know how a game works....also. don't be an elitist ****, seriously. If you have something intelligent to say, I'm more than willing to listen.

I find the floatiness helpful in approaching from the air ; are you kidding me?
falco is one of the best in the air ; even if you try an air attack falco will just shield grab.

Reorganize this. I don't know what your saying. It might be a legit point. Also, Falco is crap in brawl.

if you side dodge a projectile you will only be hurting yourself because of the lag.

ike only has a few ways of approaching and a good player will exploit this .

saying that you destroyed a fair amount of projectile campers is with some well place Ike B (super armor helps) and down A, and some dodging\jumping\rolling\etc. irrelavant because
in high level play your opponent will always read your movements.

ike is just at a disadvantage .

And a high-level Ike player can't read theirs? These arguments seem awfully one sided, skill wise. Remeber gais, I'm not saying Ike's god, but I don't think he's as bad as you guys say...



I'm done with this thread, because I'm getting tired of the tennis-style arguments. They are going nowhere. I'll just wait till Brawl come out in America and I can consistently play before I talk anymore in this thread. Besides, I don't come to Brawl boards to talk melee...and elitists really f****** piss me off...No, I'm not amazing, but I can play well. I'm sorry, I was just surprised how stupid Mr. C's comment was.

 

[CCC07]

You don't have to be part of a high level playing scene to know how a game works....also. don't be an elitist ****, seriously. If you have something intelligent to say, I'm more than willing to listen.



Reorganize this. I don't know what your saying. It might be a legit point. Also, Falco is crap in brawl.


And a high-level Ike player can't read theirs? These arguments seem awfully one sided, skill wise. Remeber gais, I'm not saying Ike's god, but I don't think he's as bad as you guys say...



I'm done with this thread, because I'm getting tired of the tennis-style arguments. They are going nowhere. I'll just wait till Brawl come out in America and I can consistently play before I talk anymore in this thread. Besides, I don't come to Brawl boards to talk melee...and elitists really f****** piss me off...No, I'm not amazing, but I can play well. I'm sorry, I was just surprised how stupid Mr. C's comment was.

actually falco is good in brawl all the spacies are.
and never did i say ike sucks. i only stated mere weaknesses. actually
he is good but i dont think he will be high tier.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

You don't have to be part of a high level playing scene to know how a game works....

yeah you do, sorry

I'm done with this thread,

Oh thank god yes.

lol @ people who don't know what an elitist is. Just because a person does not agree with you doesn't mean they're an elitist. Just because a person is good at Smash doesn't mean they're an elitist...

 

[Mr.C]

You don't have to be part of a high level playing scene to know how a game works....also. don't be an elitist ****, seriously. If you have something intelligent to say, I'm more than willing to listen.

I'm not disagreeing with everything you are saying but its just ******** when someone that has no idea how to truly play Melee, Brawl and has no understanding of the meta-game or what being high-level means is in here giving advice and starting arguments lol. It has nothing to do with being "elitist" but seriously this situation is like some high schooler trying to give Steve Nash advice on how to play Basketball. When you blame it on "elitis" that just goes to show you really do suck balls lol.

Lets say you are like freaking amazing at Street Fighters, as an example there a SFboards.com and you see a bunch of noobs posting, acting like they know how to play the game and disagreeing with you when you know 100% more about how the game works let alone you are amazing at SF. Thats how I feel every time I see one of your posts lol. The only reason why I really brought this up is because you are trying to disprove what Scotu said when he is pretty much completely right, just by reading what his post says you can tell he has an understanding of what the game is about.

Serious....like stuff like this lol.

I play a very skilled Samus player at least 4 times a weak (not matches, just sessions), and about 60% of the matches go in my favor. Oh, btw, about 3/4 of those victories are with Ganondorf. Wait, whaaaaaat? Ganondorf is slow, so Samus should projectile **** him. Uh, no. With a few jumps and a few dodges, I can manage to charge all the way across final destination and stomp him into oblivion.

You "very skilled" Samus player will most likely get 3-4 stocked by people who actually know how to play the game at a high level. This whole situation is flawed because of this. Ganondorf does get ***** by Samus's projectiles there is no need to argue over this. Not due to the fact Samus is just spamming chit for giggles but because the projectiles will make Ganon use jumps, dodges...thats what projectiles are for lol.

Who cares if Ike is good or not, if you enjoy playing with them then fuxing use him god****. Why are you in here trying to "prove" his is high tier lol.

yeah you do, sorry

lmao, see Beta... let me tell you something about 56k...he actually knows how to play the game...lol.

Now this is where you come in and start your arguments explaining how everyone is equal and everyone has an equal opinion or some **** lol. And all the people who know how to play the game who are disagreeing with you are ELITISTS!

 

[SCOTU]

I'm done with this thread, because I'm getting tired of the tennis-style arguments. They are going nowhere.

You've clearly never been to a Fire emblem forum, where they host debate tournaments in a 1v1 version of this "tennis-style" debate. They do get things done, and they typically reveal facts both about the debate topic, and the skill levels of the debaters (both at the game they play, and their debate skills).

You guys can stop countering his "points", he conceded and vowed not to return to this thread, so there's not a point in debating it anymore.

If any other uninformed Ike fanatic feels like debating me here, I'll gladly do it. feel free to start it new, or continue where I left off. I like debating.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Inui is an example of an elitist. As far as I know, Mr.C wasn't being elitist..

And yeah, we can stop yelling at e10 now, seeing he wont hear anything.

I'd say Ike is mid to high tier. ^_^

 

[Zukaza]

Dude, if you are here to debate something, atleast know the very basic ****ing facts. Everyone knows that Marth is out ranged by Ike, AND HIS TIPPER WAS REDUCED. Even if you haven't heard that, you can look at them, and see Ragnell is ****ing huge next to Falchion.

LURK MOAR.

Zusaka, dont make strange arguments. If the other player is better, then he'll win anyways...>_>

Such arguments are based off potential, not player skill....>_>

If you want to address me you should start by spelling my name right, i forgive you though (no ones perfect). Anyway, i was being sarcastic when i said Ike was the counter to everything. It was a strange argument, but it was just sarcasm. And how did E105 manage to get hated by this thread? LOL

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dude, if you are here to debate something, atleast know the very basic ****ing facts. Everyone knows that Marth is out ranged by Ike, AND HIS TIPPER WAS REDUCED. Even if you haven't heard that, you can look at them, and see Ragnell is ****ing huge next to Falchion.

LURK MOAR.

Zusaka, dont make strange arguments. If the other player is better, then he'll win anyways...>_>

Such arguments are based off potential, not player skill....>_>

I am going to stick my fist out and you are going to ram your face into it repeatedly.

1. I am not here to debate something that is obviously since it was a question.
Note the question mark. This is what it looks like in case you do not know ?

2. I don't know Ike's range since i haven't seen many videos nor can I with my crap connection and as such I really don't know how well he plays compared to other characters.

3. For telling me to get my basic facts right you got yours horribly wrong. Marth's tipper was not reduced it still kills at lower percentages than normal.

4. The size of the sword is not relative to its range all the time. A character swining the sword regularly will have less range than a character who swings the sword and extends their entire form out. So even if the character has a larger sword, another character with a smaller one could ahve the same range simply because he extends his entire form.

5. You never start off on a good step by flaming someone since it shows you depth of maturity and lack of intelligence. Even more so when the person has seniority over you.
Oh and also LRN 2 READ.

 

[Hellbeing]

Your logic only works if the fast stay the same speed and the slow get slower. If the fastest characters slow down about 2 or 3 notches (*cough cough Brawl*) and the slower characters slow down about 1, the faster characters are at a lesser position then they were in melee.
@rebuttal to timing: yes timing carries over from melee, but not to the extent that it exists in brawl. Also, fast characters require less timing because their attacks come out quick-instantly. I'm not saying melee doesn't have timing, brawl just has more.



LIEZ! (I'll address this when I get to your second paragraph...)

Yeah, I don't really play pros that much (Leik, twice?), and I doubt you know the entire smash community, so I guess that wasn't the greatest example, I was just trying to set the mindset.

First of all, what is "to Mathos?" sounds liek a name...
Also, the problem with your argument is:
A: If Mathos IS a person, then we get into a skill level argument....
B: You just say "Oh, this happens, therefore, the opponent cannot do anything." The only thing I know about melee that is set in stone is that stupid Ice Climber-infinity grab-down air thing, and even that's breakable (sometimes...). You haven't actually said WHY my dodging\jumping\rolling\etc. strategy doesn't work, you just said that it doesn't and threw Mathos at me (??? Is it the short hop, blaster, blaster thing? If so...)

I find the floatiness helpful in approaching from the air

I have destroyed a fair amount of projectile campers with some well place Ike B (super armor helps) and down A, and some dodging\jumping\rolling\etc.

Also, I only brought melee into it since I don't have EXTENSIVE brawl experience and not everybody's played brawl. Proving to me that fast characters are really good in melee doesn't do much for the conversation...



Ok...but that's melee............and even then I partially disagree with that statement, but not enough to start a new line of argument.



You know what? If I was saying that, you're right, that's bad and stupid, and I can easily see how you picked that up. I worded it wrong. It was a suggestion for people to used to Ike, since those are some of his easier moves to nail people with. I use all of his moves (except counter...). B is a useful move for aerial approaching, attacking, edgeguarding, and defending. Forward B is good for recovery (when you've gotten knock really far off the screen, yes you can be gimped! Anyone who plays Ike knows this, but saying "Forward B can be gimped in certain situations, therefore, Ike sucks, is stupid...), approach (*GASP*), and sometimes attacking. Up B is just useful for countless situations. Down B is my least favorite Ike move. Dair is great for aerial attacking, Nair is good for multiple things since it attacks at about 300 degrees around him, Fair is probably his worst aerial because of the startup which you don't want in air, and Bair is quick release and fairly strong. Forward smash has god strength and startup, but should be used when possible, Up smash has a lag, but it's powerful and has a wide hit range. Down smash is fast. Up tilt is an ok move, as is his down (which can spike, good for use when somebody's trying to recover from the bottom). Forward tilt fairly fast and fairly strong. Jabs are...jabs.

Not everyone has projectile game, but amazingly, their still good (WTF???!?!?!!) Projectile game and having/not having it CAN, but does not make or break it for a character.
Also, why does everyone say he has horrible mobility. Ok, so he's not Sheik or Fox, or maybe even Link (personally he's seems AROUND that area, if not a bit under) but he's much better than Ganondorf or Bowser.



I am being realistic. You don't see me going: "OMG IKE IS TEH 1337 WINZ! NOBODY CAN BEAT HIM! IKE FOR GOD TIER! HE HAS NO FLAWS AND THEY SHOULD MAKE A GAME CALLED SUPER SMASH BROTHERS IKE WHERE YOU PLAY AS THE 6 (?) FORMS OF IKE!" Well, I might have somewhere, but it's always been jokingly. Let me lay out some of Ike's flaws.
1. He is slow. This is a fact.
2. His strongest moves sometimes have a fair bit of windup/lag
3. His recovery isn't the best, and in some cases, can be so badly gimped, you might as well be fighting Mario.
4. He can't really combo. I've been able to pull of like 2/3 hit combos, if you can even call them combos.

See? Ike has flaws. I am not saying he doesn't, I'm just saying their overblown.

Next...


Marth has been nerfed, and I don't like it. His range is weak sauce compared to the days of yore.

fobia;4012052]there are two video in youtube that shows ike fighting snake 2 times, and both of those times, ike won

im sure a lot of you already saw this video, im just posting it to everyone that hasnt seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMnOIzFKhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b7rLSB_zmI&feature=related
ike doesnt seem bad fighting against snake

Long a** quote huh