Snakes Moveset Discussion #7: UP-SMASH

[smashkng]

It can be used to punish Marth's missed up b.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

You can f-smash while holding a nade, mindgames. If you do that, or even have a nade near you, if they try to punish the ending lag they will get blown up by the nade.

If you fsmash while on a platform you can hit tall chars on the ground.

Fsmash's hitbox is close to the ground, so if your opponent has a semi-small shield and doesnt tilt his shield you can shield poke.

Snake can jab reset ppl who miss the tech, from which you can combo into a f-smash. It rly useful when your opponent is shielding on the short platforms on BF, and you knock them off with an utilt or nair, then jab to fsmash!

1.5/5 imo, its still bad for obvious reasons.

 

[professor mgw]

I give it a 2/5

Great knoocback & power, very sad lag........

 

[smashkng]

This thread shouldn't die before every move has been discussed.

Well, I change mind and it's 2/5.
Fsmash has amazing base knockback (UnDIed FCFS can OHKO almost everyone but Bowser from the extreme of FD), but even at 100% you can survive with eg Wario an uncharged fsmash without DI at all from one extreme to the other of FD. That means it's ridiculously powerful near blast lines but loses power very quickly (though still very powerful). It's situationally useful, for example sometimes when they land due their limited options there.

But when the start-up is 40 frames it's very hard to land it. If you use it randomly with the opponent in a good position they'll punish it. Though it has HUGE shieldstun and very good disjointed range.

 

[OverLade]

If you use this move properly it's amazing. You can only really use it when you notice that your opponent has a laggy habit (rolling after using a certain attack etc...). I usually drop a grenade before I see a situation to use it, so that if the Fsmash doesn't connect I can opt to get hit by the nade instead of my opponent.

A pretty nasty setup is waiting for someone to airdodge back to the stage. While they may do it too early for a Fsmash to connect, but many people Sidestep on reflex after landing. If you whip out the Fsmash then you can guarantee a connection. The move has such high reward that it's worth it even if you miss. But in general the move isn't useful otherwise.

 

[Sinz]

Snake's forward smash is great. It has damage, range, knockback, but it also has lag. You can have some AMAZING mindgames by using this move. I don't recommend the whole do this with a grenade thing. It doesn't work. You just end up getting punished even more. I like to use this movie when my opponent is recovering onto the stage. I try to charge it and see if they airdodge. If they do I charge a bit more and release. If they don't I just release it and have a good day.

 

[OverLade]

Snake's forward smash is great. It has damage, range, knockback, but it also has lag. You can have some AMAZING mindgames by using this move. I don't recommend the whole do this with a grenade thing. It doesn't work. You just end up getting punished even more. I like to use this movie when my opponent is recovering onto the stage. I try to charge it and see if they airdodge. If they do I charge a bit more and release. If they don't I just release it and have a good day.

I'm sure you'll disagree when your opponent is King Dedede, or [other gay character]. You can DI away from your opponent when the nade blows up and in general that gives you enough time to get away or punish them if they try chasing your landing.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you use this move properly it's amazing. You can only really use it when you notice that your opponent has a laggy habit (rolling after using a certain attack etc...). I usually drop a grenade before I see a situation to use it, so that if the Fsmash doesn't connect I can opt to get hit by the nade instead of my opponent.

A pretty nasty setup is waiting for someone to airdodge back to the stage. While they may do it too early for a Fsmash to connect, but many people Sidestep on reflex after landing. If you whip out the Fsmash then you can guarantee a connection. The move has such high reward that it's worth it even if you miss. But in general the move isn't useful otherwise.

But, I would seriosly recommend using it only in a few situations. For one, once the opponent is above a certain percent and you know it would kill. Which depending upon DI and how close you are to the stage is on average about 60%. It's becomes a high risk moderate reward if you mange to connect only for 20% of damage. It's really only worth using when it kills.

 

[OverLade]

But, I would seriosly recommend using it only in a few situations. For one, once the opponent is above a certain percent and you know it would kill. Which depending upon DI and how close you are to the stage is on average about 60%. It's becomes a high risk moderate reward if you mange to connect only for 20% of damage. It's really only worth using when it kills.

Yeah I didn't say otherwise, but I would still disagree. Against a lot of characters with poorer recoveries it will send them so far off the edge that you can force damaging setups on their recovery (I was playing against a Zelda player today and this happened once or twice). Plus it's psychologically upsetting to get hit by a Fsmash.

Sure though, I wouldn't expect it not to kill, but you can still get reasonable reward even if it doesnt. If you notice your opponent isn't going to get hit by the Fsmash you can release it before the grenade explodes as well which makes it a pretty safe setup.

 

[Sinz]

I'm sure you'll disagree when your opponent is King Dedede, or [other gay character]. You can DI away from your opponent when the nade blows up and in general that gives you enough time to get away or punish them if they try chasing your landing.

You shouldn't even be using fsmash against D3. I guess Falco is arguable. Valid point.

 

[OverLade]

You shouldn't even be using fsmash against D3. I guess Falco is arguable. Valid point.

You can use Fsmash against anyone IF you get the right read. I'm not saying it's part of the matchup, but we're discussing the move in general, and Fsmash is a move that's PURELY based on good reads. I'm discussing the grenade aspect because while you should only use Fsmash if you believe you read your opponent correcctly (ledgerolls/ledgeattacks/airdodges/rolls/sidesteps), it doesn't hurt to make the move even safer if you're going to use it.

A scenario for example would be taking out a nade while your opponent is hanging from the ledge. If you predict a get up attack, then walk backwards just outside its range and Fsmash. If they do something else you'll be generally safe even if the nade wasn't there, but it's an added insurance (if they ledge jump etc). You have almost nothing to lose by trying because if they do a regular get up and it's outside of your Fsmash range then the grenade will explode and push them back off the ledge. Depending on how the nade is timed and how quickly you realize your opponent didn't do what you expected, you may or may not have enough time to shield the explosion. But if you're spaced properly your Fsmash will be out a ledgeroll, ledgeairdodge, ledge attack, and the grenade will make you safe (or at least trade with) characters like Marth coming up to the ledge with a Nair/Fair.

Concerning the point about D3, if you get the read, take advantage of it. Against CO18/Seibrik I'd heavily use Dair and Nair (provided that I picked up a grenade while executing the move), because I'd rather get hit by my own grenade at the possibility (and likelyhood) of getting 29%, than take the risk and get CG'd.

 

[Berserker.]

I only use F-smash on any recovery that's easy to edgeguard. Good examples are:
1.) Ganondorf
2.) Link
3.) Marth

 

[Sinz]

You can use Fsmash against anyone IF you get the right read. I'm not saying it's part of the matchup, but we're discussing the move in general, and Fsmash is a move that's PURELY based on good reads. I'm discussing the grenade aspect because while you should only use Fsmash if you believe you read your opponent correcctly (ledgerolls/ledgeattacks/airdodges/rolls/sidesteps), it doesn't hurt to make the move even safer if you're going to use it.

A scenario for example would be taking out a nade while your opponent is hanging from the ledge. If you predict a get up attack, then walk backwards just outside its range and Fsmash. If they do something else you'll be generally safe even if the nade wasn't there, but it's an added insurance (if they ledge jump etc). You have almost nothing to lose by trying because if they do a regular get up and it's outside of your Fsmash range then the grenade will explode and push them back off the ledge. Depending on how the nade is timed and how quickly you realize your opponent didn't do what you expected, you may or may not have enough time to shield the explosion. But if you're spaced properly your Fsmash will be out a ledgeroll, ledgeairdodge, ledge attack, and the grenade will make you safe (or at least trade with) characters like Marth coming up to the ledge with a Nair/Fair.

Concerning the point about D3, if you get the read, take advantage of it. Against CO18/Seibrik I'd heavily use Dair and Nair (provided that I picked up a grenade while executing the move), because I'd rather get hit by my own grenade at the possibility (and likelyhood) of getting 29%, than take the risk and get CG'd.

Excellent information! Thank you for posting this! I especially liked the last paragraph!

I just have gotten blown up to bair to bair to bair. Which is a sad time.

 

[6Mizu]

Add this to whatever everyone else said so far.
-It's good against King DDD, when he's forced to use his Up-B.
-And against Marth if he uses Up-B as an OOS.

Any way like alway my little summary:
+Frame 41 (from what I remem.)
+Slow!!!
+Kill light characters around 60%, Medium around 90%, and heavy around 110+.
+It can use used w/ Tech Chase, on a platform.
+Slow.
+Large hitbox.
+Lag can be canceled.
+Slow!

-Very hard to land.
-can be seen from a mile away.
-Before you can even do it you'll get hit.

Overall:
4 out of 10.

 

[smashkng]

Add this to whatever everyone else said so far.
-It's good against King DDD, when he's forced to use his Up-B.
-And against Marth if he uses Up-B as an OOS.

Any way like alway my little summary:
+Frame 41 (from what I remem.)
+Slow!!!
+Kill light characters around 60%, Medium around 90%, and heavy around 110+.
+It can use used w/ Tech Chase, on a platform.
+Slow.
+Large hitbox.
+Lag can be canceled.
+Slow!

-Very hard to land.
-can be seen from a mile away.
-Before you can even do it you'll get hit.

Overall:
4 out of 10.

Kills WAY earlier than that when you hit from closer distances to the blast line. If you don't DI it has the capability for a OHKO when fully charged from edge of FD!

 

[6Mizu]

Kills WAY earlier than that when you hit from closer distances to the blast line. If you don't DI it has the capability for a OHKO when fully charged from edge of FD!

okay, but when would you have a chance to land it?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

You can punish DK's upb recovery with it if he lands on the stage and doesnt autocancel it.

 

[Berserker.]

Use f-smash to edgeguard.

That's the use of it IMO but Snake has better options

 

[Yumewomiteru]

After using d-tilt alot during Pound 4, I realize that its actually a really great move. it is just as fast as utilt if you do it w/o crouching 1st or doing it from a crouch. And it has the most horizontal range out of all of snake's tilts cept ftilt2, so its an amazing spacer. plus it put you so low to that ground that you can avoid alot of moves with it, plus it kill at a decent percentage, if your utilt is too stale use dtilt to kill instead.

5/5 imo.

 

[6Mizu]

After using d-tilt alot during Pound 4, I realize that its actually a really great move. it is just as fast as utilt if you do it w/o crouching 1st or doing it from a crouch. And it has the most horizontal range out of all of snake's tilts cept ftilt2, so its an amazing spacer. plus it put you so low to that ground that you can avoid alot of moves with it, plus it kill at a decent percentage, if your utilt is too stale use dtilt to kill instead.

5/5 imo.

Also, Dtilt is Frame 6.....just like Utilt.
I mean it's not a bad move....it's just...that not many people see any uses for it, except for stuff like edge guarding.

 

[professor mgw]

This is not dead yet!

#7 UP-SMASH: DISCUSS!!!

 

[sman5093]

I must admit. this is really informative.

 

[smashkng]

Mortar is great because of the Mortar Slide, and can be used as juggling. Charging it doesn't make it stronger, but increases the vertical range of it. I would give it 4/5 thanks to the Mortar Slide.

 

[Squall of fame]

well using it for mind game purposes or when real close just use up smash and it knock enemy in air. if the mortar don't hit (usually cause its dodged) u can grab or up tilt the foe after wards which i do on occasions so it good. IMO 5/5 cause even missed it can keep u safe from being punished.

 

[6Mizu]

I must admit. this is really informative.

Well TY sman5093, that's a complement for all of us Snakes.

\
Any way like always my little summary:
\

U-Smash:
Good things about it:
+Snakes hits the ground w/ mortar at Frame 11.....mortar shell appears at Frame 24 (?). Which is pretty quick.
+Great for characters that "decide" to recover high.
+Good for covering yourself.
+Amazing edge guard!
+Aids Snake in juggling others.
+Stops aerial approaches.
+DACUS
+Some what spam-able.
+(that's all I can think of)

Bad things about it:
-Can be canceled/destroyed by virtually any move.
-I think it has barely any Base knockback.

Woww, it has like no "bad things" about it.

Overall rating:
7.5 or 8 out of 10

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Bad thing about mortar sliding, if your opponent shields it you can get punished pretty badly in the ending lag depending on where you end up.

And yeah most attacks out prioritize the mortar.

 

[professor mgw]

Any1 knows the damage% for it? Including with the ground and just the bomb by itself.

EDIT: And oh sorry for leaving When my phone went off i pretty much stopped coming on swf. srry

 

[Berserker.]

4/5

Can DACUS and can be used as an edgeguarding tool. It stops aerial approaches too.

Most info was mentioned

better dask attacks

Wrong spelling :|

But people can't be perfect all the time anyway ^_^

 

[professor mgw]

4/5

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

What he said.

 

[Berserker.]

Another bad thing abouit Mortar:

It has LOW priority and it can be punished.

Another good thing:

Great for stage pressuring

 

[-Cross-]

Mortar is great for platform pressure. If they shield the hit, and then try to jump out then you can do a utilt to punish before they can even jump out. If they do any of the other options out of shield (roll, spotdodge) another mortar will put them in a very bad situation.

Also useful for opponents above you, obviously. If your opponents have used up their second jump though, this move will absolutely wreck havoc on them. Since spacing a move to cancel it out is difficult, most people opt for air dodging which lead to %.

Primary function of this move is to create a safety net for Snake. Like RedHalberd was describing above, it acts like the grenade that covers up f-smashes lag, except for all your options. Plus we have mortar sliding. 5/5

 

[Yumewomiteru]

The diff between Nades and Mortars is that Mortars have no priority, so a well timed attack will beat it. I've had a mortar beat by an f-throw before, its kinda lulzy.

I wouldn't give it 5/5, prob 3.5 if just the usmash, if we're taking DACUS into account then 4/5