Snakes DThrow Techcase (Infinite?!)

[Staco]

Watch this first:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215037

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMTL74uIXlw&fmt=18

People are discusing ganondorfs getting out of G(arbage) tier, because he can infinite some characters with his side b.
Nothing game breaking, I guess. Its hard to side B somebody the first time and its maybe possible to come out at the edge.

But now watch this! @.@

The video is a simple show off, I made it in a short time. Maybe someone other could make a better video.
And maybe someone could teste the frames, so that we know how much time Snake has got to react.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OrT5udcgAU

And its impossible to come out at the edge, if done right. (You can edge infinite and you can lie the opponent down before the edge, if the grab is timed right).

I want to see some pro guys reacting like this.
I think its possible.
You need good reactions, but nothing like godlike reactions.
I tested it a hour before without filming and there is enough time to react.
Meta needs a long time after rolling until he can do something.
I only tested it on MK, maybe some or a lot of other characters can be infinited with this, too.

Why did nobody before me writing something about it? ^^´

Snake = Broken?

 

[Black_Heretic]

idk if you can make a true infinite out of our beloved tech chase, but we can make it a lot easier by boost grabbing when they roll away

I started doing this saturday at the CGC biweekly

***** a falco with it XD

 

[Staco]

whats the difference between forward boost grab and normal grab out of dash/run?

 

[Black_Heretic]

longer grab range

 

[Panix]

It's just tech chasing....wheres the ground breaking AT?

 

[B.A.M.]

he probably didnt realize we've been doing this for a long time. staco this is common knowledge to any decent snake. we d-throw techchase all the time.

 

[Black_Heretic]

you misunderstand, the Ganons are working on a way that, through prediction, makes his side B an infinite

Staco wants to know if our dthrow can infinite in a similar fashion

probably can't though

 

[PK-ow!]

you misunderstand, the Ganons are working on a way that, through prediction reaction, makes his side B an infinite

fixed

Spoiler

10sidebs

 

[Black_Heretic]

fixed

Spoiler

10sidebs

lol whatever

 

[TP]

If I had known my thread could lead to Snake getting better, I would have just kept the idea to myself. Next, MK will find a tornado infinite.

To save you guys the trouble of checking my thread, here is an extremely brief summary: After a murder choke, they can roll left, right, do a getup attack, or just get back up. For roughly half the cast, we can start a choke after they have started, allowing us to chain them on reaction. We shield the getup attack and then choke. This is not an infinite because they can grab the edge if we choke them at the edge. This is not going to see much application, sadly, as it it too hard on most character. If you want really easy characters to test your idea on, I recommend Pika and Kirby.

 

[Lawlmahbawls]

Yeah, this is just tech chasing. <____<

 

[MyCurse4Life]

Awesome, I don't now ganon can chain choke and kick butt.

 

[magikguy]

go play more mycurse4life.

 

[napZzz]

Too hard to do. You have a 25% chance of guessing what they do, and its pretty much impossible to infinite with this.

 

[xiferp]

You're not guessing. That was the whole point of the ganon post.

 

[napZzz]

You're not guessing. That was the whole point of the ganon post.

You pretty much need to, you cant have the timing to land this perfectly everytime they do it, its just not possible with how many options they have.

 

[magikguy]

he wants you to memorize their movements from the floor. Thats what the video was showing , It's a hassle

 

[8AngeL8]

Even with it memorized, many characters just go too far and too fast to accurately infinite them. Someone like Olimar and GaW is super easy to tech chase, but quite a few characters just need to be predicted.

 

[Nope]

can we not let this thread end up like the ganon boards? people arguing that this is an infinite when it's based of reacting to the opponents decision. It's tech chasing

You could do this forever on someone if there reaction time and thought process was humanly possible at the current games speed. But since you react and no one has super snake like abilities then its just plain tech chasing and it's been around for years.

 

[Staco]

For example:
Your opponent can roll left, right, up, attack.
You have to start your reaction to your opponents move after 0,3 seconds? (I dont know, how long you have time).

Example: Your opponent starts rolling left.
You watch the screen, your opponent begins to roll left, you have 0,3 seconds to realize, he rolls left, I have to put the stick left.
Its the same with every stand up animation.
You simple react at your opponent.
There is a time, in which you can react to their stand up animations.
The stand up from MK in all directions maybe needs 1 seconds.
Snakes regrab needs 0,7 seconds.
So you have got 0,3 seconds to react to their stand ups.
A perfect player (its extrem easy in 1/4 brawl) could react to all of their stand up animations, because he has got time after the opponent is starting the stand up animation.
Every stand up animation looks different at the beginning.
But if you know, which stand up animation is which you can punish it, if reacting early enough.

Sure, its maybe the same like tech cases in melee. But the timing for brawl seems to be much easier than in melee.
Maybe you had in melee a reaction time of 0,1 seconds. This is to short, so you have to guess, what your opponent is doing.

For example, if your opponent needed 5 seconds to roll it would be really easy to react early enough and grab the opponent again.
And in brawl it seems realizable.

For Snake techcase at MK you have time until mk went in one direction or already stand on both feets. Thats enough time to start a command and if you start it at this time, you react early enough.

I thought about using this knowledge for high level play. So a perfect snake player (ally, m2k, dunno) could do this again and again, because this guys can react so fast.
There are people, which do 10 multishines in a row. So dont tell me people couldnt do this.

The timing doesnt seems to be to hard. Maybe somebody could test frames, so we would get to know, how much time we have to react. (if Snake needs 0,5 seconds for the regrab and mk 1 second for the roll, you have got 0,5 seconds time to start your reaction)

This is nothing about mindgames, its all about reaction. And we just look at how much snake has got time to react. Players need this time, we are humans. =/
But if played perfectly or simply very good, this maybe could be done!

I know that some snakes already started doing this, but the most didnt realize about infiniting people with this. I want to see some m2k guys trying this and I beat guys like this could do this perfectly, so that the opponent has got no chance to get out!


And sure people know tech casing for years. But in melee the reaction time was much harder than this.
In brawl it seems like people could get it!

I tried it myself at a computer.
He was only rolling forward and backward, but I punished it by reaction and he couldnt do anything.
And im not really good in reacting to techcases (I didnt play melee, lol).

And there is really enough time to react.

MK ---------------------------------> roll forward
MK -----------------------> roll backward

you have to react when mk is here:
----------MK------------------------>
------MK------------------>

and he has to stand up before, this needs time, too, you can look where he is rolling by watching at his stand up.

And 4 options arent a lot of options.
If he simply stand up you can shield, if he attacks you will see it, if he doesnt attack you grab him out of shield.

 

[Nope]

it's not that the timing is impossible but there are so many different options that players can do (5 options btw). stand up, get up attack, roll left, roll right, sit on the ground then go into any other option. From what your saying IF a player can REACT to every movement he could keep someone in this forever. The point is there are so many different options to do that no one will string more then 4-5 of these together at any given time in a high level match. Hell by your reasoning if I had the ability to react in a couple frames every time I would just never get hit in brawl and punish everything you do with the perfect move. It's just not feasible so lets drop this topic.

 

[Panix]

it's not that the timing is impossible but there are so many different options that players can do (5 options btw). stand up, get up attack, roll left, roll right, sit on the ground then go into any other option. From what your saying IF a player can REACT to every movement he could keep someone in this forever. The point is there are so many different options to do that no one will string more then 4-5 of these together at any given time in a high level match. Hell by your reasoning if I had the ability to react in a couple frames every time I would just never get hit in brawl and punish everything you do with the perfect move. It's just not feasible so lets drop this topic.

sombody just won the thread.

 

[DeadX]

i thought i'd throw in my idea. probably doesn't work though.

What if as soon as you see the character getting up, regardless of the animation, you spot dodged? that eliminates the get up attack, and you might have enough time to grab before they can escape?

and if it's not and infinite, it's just really hard to escape.

and after a little bit of this you could utilt them. XD

 

[.Kiyo]

I can actually see myself doing this soon enough, maybe I just need some practice and I can get it done. Good find too.

 

[Superspright]

Hate to say it, but their 5th option is moot. If they just want to hang out down there I'll just stick a C4 on them, wait until they get into the air, or just let the timer kill them [which is funnier].

 

[Black_Heretic]

Hate to say it, but their 5th option is moot. If they just want to hang out down there I'll just stick a C4 on them, wait until they get into the air, or just let the timer kill them [which is funnier].

the C4 falls off after 13 seconds if they lay on the ground for so long, why not just ftilt them?

 

[Nope]

Hate to say it, but their 5th option is moot. If they just want to hang out down there I'll just stick a C4 on them, wait until they get into the air, or just let the timer kill them [which is funnier].

this coming down to it yet again perfect timing! the 5th option is just fine when they mix it up with all the others.

What if as soon as you see the character getting up, regardless of the animation, you spot dodged? that eliminates the get up attack, and you might have enough time to grab before they can escape?

nope if they roll away right after you lay them down and you spot dodge you will never be able to regrab unless they just stand there. Also if they hesitate the getup attack then you can get hit then too.

 

[xDD-Master]

Sorry for Necro-Post but its better then making a new thread (And people will say "Hey we have a search funtion" )

So I want to know the following versus MK.

Get Up Animation --- How many frames has MKs get up animation (After how many frames can he do a new attack) ? How long takes Snakes grab (On which frame will he grab MK) ?

Get Up Attack --- In which frame is the first hit of his get up attack ? When do Snakes grab SA frames start ? Maybe we can grab MKs get-up attack with SA if we have frame advantage... Otherwise we would know how many frames we have to shield.

Rolling away --- Are we able to re-grab him 100% of the time if we do it quickly enough ? How many frames advantage do we have (The time we have to react) ?

Rolling towards --- The same questions as above.

If we have 0.1+ seconds of advantage to every option this could truly get a "you just need a good reaction" thing, which would be very helpfull. We could learn it in special trainings so we can get the regrab 100% of the time (If he isnt at the edge I know the edge-regrab can be escaped)

 

[Yikarur]

Standing Grab: 8
Pivot Grab: 9
Dash Grab: 11

Snakes dthrow:

Snake can't move: 59

MK can't move: 58

-1


MK:

F-Roll: 35 (invincible until Frame 24)
B-Roll: 35 (Invincible until Frame 31)

Get up Attack:
Hit: 16
Ends: 38

Get up: 30 Frames


Frame Perfect Regrab @Front Roll: Frame 25 of MKs roll
Frame PErfect Regrab @Back Roll: Frame 32 of Mks roll

You have a huge grab windows when MK is back rolling because you have just turnarround, go one step and standing grab but MK has more invinciblity on the Backroll.

you can calculate the rest by yourself

 

[xDD-Master]

Standing Grab: 8
Pivot Grab: 9
Dash Grab: 11

Snakes dthrow:

Snake can't move: 59

MK can't move: 58

-1


MK:

F-Roll: 35 (invincible until Frame 24)
B-Roll: 35 (Invincible until Frame 31)

Get up Attack:
Hit: 16
Ends: 38

Get up: 30 Frames


Frame Perfect Regrab @Front Roll: Frame 25 of MKs roll
Frame PErfect Regrab @Back Roll: Frame 32 of Mks roll

You have a huge grab windows when MK is back rolling because you have just turnarround, go one step and standing grab but MK has more invinciblity on the Backroll.

you can calculate the rest by yourself

Danke Yika <3 xD

OK that means:

Get Up Attack: You can grab MK before his first hit (7 frames advantage to do so) You can shield it an then grab it. 16 frames to get your shield up.

Get Up Animation: You have 21 frames adcantage to input a grab. Wait 11 frames and then you have 8 frames to input a grab.

Front Roll: You can only grab him on 10 frames. So its: 35 Frames > Dash-Frames + 11 Frames for Dash grab > 25 to grab him. That means your Dash has to be 14 to 24 long to get a grab.

Back Roll: You can only grab him on 3 frames. So its: 35 Frames > Tournaround + Walk / Dash-Frames + 8 / 11 Frames for Normal / Dash grab > 32 to grab him. That means your Tournaround + Walk / Dash has to be 24 / 21 to 27 / 24 long to get a grab.


But here we have it... in theory this can be an infinite (until he reaches the edge) if our Tournaround + Walk and dash are quick enough, but I think so.

It would also be interesting to know what Mks quickest options are on the ground which what also needs some frames again (Or does he has somethiong with activation on Frame 1 o.O?)

That means Snakes could have about 0.1 seconds time to regrab MK out of every option. (Idk if 0.1 seconds is possible for humans [without daily training] xD).

 

[Yikarur]

get up attack has invincible frames until frame 27, forgot to note :x
normal get up has invinciblity until frame 22.

 

[Nic64]

Hate to say it, but their 5th option is moot. If they just want to hang out down there I'll just stick a C4 on them, wait until they get into the air, or just let the timer kill them [which is funnier].

The C4 can be reacted to, dair, jab > ftilt, and utilt are much more reliable(or just waiting for them if you feel like trying it).

And Snake's tech chase can't be an infinite even if you read them perfectly, they can just roll to the edge where they will fall off.

 

[xDD-Master]

get up attack has invincible frames until frame 27, forgot to note :x
normal get up has invinciblity until frame 22.

OK edited it thx again ^^

The C4 can be reacted to, dair, jab > ftilt, and utilt are much more reliable(or just waiting for them if you feel like trying it).

And Snake's tech chase can't be an infinite even if you read them perfectly, they can just roll to the edge where they will fall off.

A character stands up from alone after about 4 seconds so he would end in another grab ^^

And grabbing someone in the middle and tech chasing him to the edge and getting 20+ and more damage against short rollers is still a nice thing, isnt it ? Especially if your oppenant tries to mindgame you and isnt rolling everytime directly to the ledge and you react to it

 

[SuSa]

Give me 3 good reasons why you Necro'd this thread rather then posting in:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804

 

[xDD-Master]

Give me 3 good reasons why you Necro'd this thread rather then posting in:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804

1) I used search function
2) I used search function
3) see 1 BUT NOT 2

Good enough =D ?

http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?searchid=2633700

 

[Nic64]

You didn't check the stickies though

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207880

stickies > search!