Snake vs. Falco

[Attila_]

something close to frame perfection lol.

you can't hit him in the first third of phantasm (with anything), so you'd have to space the disjoint of dtilt as to hit him after that. hard, but not impossible. and since he's using a Bmove, he'll have extra knockback if you hit him out of it.

 

[Teh Future]

u guys should have seen shugo play ally.

D:

the write up of this matchup should be (imo):

falco is stupid and broken and *****.

good thing snake is dum too

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Lol I saw that..I was on the edge of my seat for the entire set.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

"What To Do When the Bird Has Got YOU"

For one reason or another: You ****ed up. And your mistake has result in the Brooklyn Bird grabbing you. You're being casually walked to the edge of the stage and you know its coming. The dreaded Dair spike. But fear not Snake mains! There is a way to get out this debacle without losing your stock. Let's review our options:

Option 1: Tech the Stage

This is basically what we call your saving grace; your one chance to escape this ride cleanly. It's simple really. All you have to do is DI inward towards the ledge and hit your assigned shield button. This will require some precise timing and practice but if done correctly you will tech the ledge and pop up in the air. From there you can Cypher back on the stage and the rest is up to you. This is the option we suggest.


Option 2: Cypher Towards the Stage

This is basically what we call the stupid option.n Unless you can C4 yourself into the stage and tech off the stage. But if you're in this scenario chances are you wont. This is the worst thing you can do in this scenario. Why? Well if you're at low percents and you got spiked you will end up Cyphering back up to the stage but...Falco can do two things to you. His options:

• Spike you again and reset the situation.
• Grab release you and force you to use C4 on your self.

Both of these are bad for you. Getting spiked puts you in a worst position because you are now close to the blastzone then you were originally. C4ing yourself here means a good 17% on you in addition to the Dair and grabs you just ate and if you're low percents you probably aren't close enough to get back to the stage again and will have to C4 again and at this point Falco should be able to chase you. Don't get yourself here.

Now if you're at low-mid percent and Cypher toward the stage you probably won't make it to the stage and will have to C4 anyway. Falco yet again has two options.

• Spike you again and possibly kill you.
• Chase you off the stage with Bair or some other aerial.

We now have a new option in the equation. Falco can aerial with Bair or Fair and possible stage spike you which pretty much results in death. Both of these options leads to your death. So yes, don't be that Snake.


Option 3: Cypher Away from the Stage

If you failed to tech the ledge after the spike this is what you should be doing. Now of course if you're Cyphering away from the stage then yes you can't grab it. So this means you will have to C4 yourself back up to the stage. This is basically the option you want to take if you just want to avoid Falco stomping on you more.

Now if you're at low percentages you will have to C4 yourself several times to get back on. On the plus side Falco probably won't chase you. He'll just sit there in contempt and watch you pile damage on yourself in a desperate attempt to get back on the stage. Now when you reach slightly higher percents...

If you are at low-mid percents get ready because if you DI towards the stage after the C4. Falco may attempt to Bair or Dair you so you'll have to guess where he is headed. Falco has limited options to chase you though so you should be able to avoid the **** and get back on. You can also DI away from the stage after the C4 but this will force you to C4 yet again. Only do this is you're afraid will Falco will intercept you at the altitude you're at now.

tl;dr: Learn to tech the spike. It saves you a lot of hassle.

I got bored/drunk so I typed this. Somehow my English is still intact.

 

[SeekHeart]

what are some good options after one is past CG range?

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Do you mean what to do after Snake is past CG %?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I suppose he's asking how a Snake should play the MU after the threat of Chainspike is gone. If that's it then read the first few pages on the summary and then ask SPECIFIC questions if you have anyway.

 

[DarkLouis331]

-We do have a chaingrab on Falco.
-Basically it goes: grab -> at least 1 pummel -> grab release -> buffered boost grab -> grab -> repeat

-As for our camping game, I like to pull out a nade, jump higher than the peak of his full-hopped laser, throw the nade from there, pull out another nade and shield to make it fall on top of him. He can't reflect what's above him. Crouch if he's spamming lasers and time the correct time to jump.
-Or just do what Bizkit said and cook them for exactly the right time.

-Get Falco offstage. If you see him use his jump and he's still below the edge, go for the gimp ASAP, he's going to use his upB.

-If there are platforms anywhere, camp them until you're at about ~40% and use safe moves when coming to the ground. I use this strategy with Wolf too. If you're on FD, keep as much ground behind you and Falco as possible.

Counterpicks:
Lylat- Stops his laser game to an extent. Try to stay on the lowest side of the stage when it tilts. Your mines/C4 are hard to see. Keep track of them.

Frigate- Falco can't camp as much on this stage and his recovery options are limited when the stage is missing ledges to grab onto.

I usually go Frigate just because I love that stage.

Ban priority:

Japes- He can pretty much camp a platform on the edge, and if you approach him, he can predict your landing pretty easily on the platform. The ceiling is ludicrously high, which makes uptilt a harder option to kill with. If he chaingrabs you, a good Falco will get you in the water and possible Croc will kill you. Phantasm leads to instant grabs on the outer platforms.

FD/SV- Whatever you feel least comfortable on.

Ban Japes if it's legal.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

what are some good options after one is past CG range?

don git spiked

 

[Attila_]

We only have more than one regard on Fd, and even then, it's really not a stage I would like to be on against falco.

Japes isn't as bad as it's made out to be, if you get the percent lead, crouch on the central platform and falco is forced to approach from the air, which is pretty lol.

@anyone who thinks snake outcamps falco: this is something I really don't understand at all. Show me a vid of snake forcing an approach from a top falco.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Who actually still thinks that Falco can be outcamped by Snake LOL

That's just an LOL statement.

And I am honestly not afraid to play a Falco on that stage. I feel like BF is worse in some ways. But if Japes is legal then I will ban it.

But with Battlefield I feel like the platforms just add another annoying element in Falco's recovery. For most of the cast, Falco will take a substantial amount of damage from getting their recovery read and punished. The smaller stage, access to two of the three platforms from off the stage with his recovery and the ability to short and long cancel his Phantasm adds a few more options in the "Let's **** your recovery!!" guessing game.

So he could:

Phantasm on the ledge
Phantasm under a side platform
Phantasm on the side platform
Phantasm to the side platform and fall through it

Phantasm (long) cancel to the center platform
Phantasm (long) cancel to the center platform and fall through it
Phantasm (long) cancel in between platforms and land on the main part of the stage
Phantasm (long ) cancel and DI back to the ledge
(you can pretty much add all of the options from the list below and add them to this depending on where the Falco cancels)


Phantasm (short) cancel to the ledge
Phantasm (short) cancel on the side platform
Phantasm (short) cancel to the side platform and fall through it
Phantasm (short) cancel and land on the main part of the stage.

Fire Bird to the ledge
Fire Bird to the main part of the stage
Fire Bird to the platform
Fire Bird to the platform and fall through it

That is a HELL of a lot of options from just 2 moves (mainly one since FireBird is usually a last resort recovery) Especially when you look at FD and eliminate the platform options. Most people punish Falco for screwing up on Phantasm. If you mix it up enough it becomes really annoying to land solid blows on Falco. Granted yes you can place landmines and C4 and limit options but he still has more options than he would on Final Destination.

Falco also has pretty solid platform poking tools in Nair and U-Tilt and camp under the platforms pretty well. Making approaching annoying (not like its never NOT annoying)

tl;dr Falco vs Snake is stupid.

 

[clowsui]

DL and TC will know my wrath very soon

I think a lot of Snakes don't try to do close combat w/ Falco enough. As in, they're too uncomfortable w/ CQC. Snake's Ftilt/jab/grab combined can create mixups that aren't frame advantaged but in terms of trades/threats are good enough to scare any Falco. Infern does this to me a lot ever since I taught him at the beginning of this year and let me tell you...it is a pain in the *** to deal with.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ I am very much looking forward to our rematch.


The threat of Falcos CQC capabilities could be applied also. I mean Falco's jab is a real pain to get around. Frame 2. Good range. Good priority. Cancels into Grabs which are a threat to us at any percent because grabs get us in the air.

BUT I will say that high percents we do need to mix it up and go balls in with some close range combat. Our jab is solid and gets us F-Tilts and Grabs which are a big threat to Falco. So I agree there. Being passive in this match for each phase of it will probably get you ***** as Snake. But being too aggro will do the same. Most Snakes fail at this MU because we have to play it a LOT differently than our other MUs.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

DL and TC will know my wrath very soon

I think a lot of Snakes don't try to do close combat w/ Falco enough. As in, they're too uncomfortable w/ CQC. Snake's Ftilt/jab/grab combined can create mixups that aren't frame advantaged but in terms of trades/threats are good enough to scare any Falco. Infern does this to me a lot ever since I taught him at the beginning of this year and let me tell you...it is a pain in the *** to deal with.

Falco's don't usually let us because they run away to shoot lasers with side b. Seriously what are you doing trying to get into a boxing match with Snake, great you have a two frame jab, we have a 3 frame one, a 4 frame f tilt and a 6 frame down tilt that beats all of your grounded close range options except phantasm

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I love me some D-Tilt in this MU personally. Most Falcos never see it coming. It's a solid for a quick hit with good damage or as a kill move at decent percents.

I like how you actually know your frame data.

But in close-mid range we win for sure. But in close-close range Falco can win out because of the jab. As long as we space though we have the edge there. That and our kill to weight ratio is what makes this MU even.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

I like how you actually know your frame data.

i think i know all of snake's frame data by heart except fair, and the start and finish of all his dodges. Kinda funny i'm an ike secondary but i know all his frame data

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I knew Fair was 23 but I dont know the dodges either. I used to think frame data was really boring but it helps a lot actually.

 

[Attila_]

I think what you mean to say is that a lot of snakes get ***** in this mu cause we have to approach... It's the same reason why we lose to olimar and wario, and why characters like pit can keep up with us.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Same thing lol

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

I think what you mean to say is that a lot of snakes get ***** in this mu cause we have to approach... It's the same reason why we lose to olimar and wario, and why characters like pit can keep up with us.

Snake does not lose the falco MU. it's just stupid boring and most snakes just start approaching, then get get grabbed, falco then racks up 70+ damage and then they lose. If you just sit and throw nades at them they eventually have to approach because nades will kill and lasers will not. It's dead even.

 

[etecoon]

just because you throw nades doesn't mean they'll get hit by them

I think snake wins this MU 55:45 but that is not to be confused, snake does have to approach falco. but yeah, don't run after him when you're in CG %

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Grenades shouldn't be hitting that Falco that often outside of reading Phantasms correctly. Saying that if you sit and throw nades @ Falco you can force them to approach is the same as saying we outcamp Falco which we don't.

 

[clowsui]

^ true facts

many snakes have tried to outcamp me only for me to throw/instant throw/shine/shield the nades lol

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

The only way to avoid the methods listed above are to cook them and cooking Grenades leave you WIDE open for laser abuse and possibly having them detonate on you. You could shield drop them also but you probably wont get the chance to pick them back up. Honestly when I use Grenades offensively I use them as distractions. If you can get them out then go for it. I generally wait for a break in their laser pattern and then full hop Grenade or something else to get the nade in the air. It kills a few seconds off the grenade timer and it forces them to react. As I stated before good Falcos won't take much damage from grenades outside of reads from Phantasm.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Charge falco down, scare him with the close-up game. Get used to PSing/shielding phantasm and laser. Avoid falco's kill methods and DI well.

Good game Snake.

Obviously know how to edgeguard falco once you get in close.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

approaching falco is stupid, you are just asking to get IAPed. the only way i would ever approach falco is if they were doing the ledge hopped lasers. I play this MU all the time. 0 to 50 you should not approach at all. If the falco gets greedy and wants their grab like a crack addict wants crack (seriously and not just falco mains, everyone who has a chain grab on snake will sometimes get really greedy and just approach you looking for that free damage from the early grab and in the process they eat 50 damage from us until they realize they are not being smart and try to camp) drop a nade and play the roll and spot dodge game or mortar slide away with a nade unless its mk or kirby and they have port. The grenade keeps you pretty safe even more so if you 2 out. If you grab him at this point you have a few good options. B/f throw and toss a nade at them, d throw and try to tech chase , or a very low percents try an up throw and up tilt afterward and then follow that up with another grab or up tilt and juggle him.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Learning to space is important. I can't tell ya how many stocks I've lost by underestimating the range of Falco's Fsmash or underestimating his jump. I've tried spacing myself to punish a charged Fsmash only to walk just into its range. Grrr... Falco has high jumps and a good enough walk speed to try and read our landings.

 

[veritas129]

Im having trouble in this match up as Falco

People saying Falco can chain grab Snake to 50% are wrong. I used to be able to CG my friends snake to 50%, but he learned that well before 50% you can drop a grenade in between dthrows and that stops the CG completely.

Also, lasers are great for keeping Snake at bay, but my friend just crawls under them (we always play on FD). Am I supposed to Phantasm through him when he does this? In this match up in general, am I just supposed to camp and force him to come to me? I really hate playing like that, but if thats the only way Falco can stay even with Snake I guess I have no choice. And even if he has to come in, Snakes melee attacks hit harder, have more range, and have more priority than all of Falcos hits.

Most of our matches end in 1 stock in his favor. What do you guys do to beat a snake on FD?

 

[SeekHeart]

well I'm not a falco main, but when I played casually as falco against snake, I'd just lazer him till he came, then get him in the air and pound like ****

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Im having trouble in this match up as Falco

People saying Falco can chain grab Snake to 50% are wrong. I used to be able to CG my friends snake to 50%, but he learned that well before 50% you can drop a grenade in between dthrows and that stops the CG completely.

Also, lasers are great for keeping Snake at bay, but my friend just crawls under them (we always play on FD). Am I supposed to Phantasm through him when he does this? In this match up in general, am I just supposed to camp and force him to come to me? I really hate playing like that, but if thats the only way Falco can stay even with Snake I guess I have no choice. And even if he has to come in, Snakes melee attacks hit harder, have more range, and have more priority than all of Falcos hits.

Most of our matches end in 1 stock in his favor. What do you guys do to beat a snake on FD?

Response to red quote: That only works cause he's not CG frame perfect. If the falco is good enough, he'll chain grab perfectly, which does NOT allow us to pull a nade. If it's not perfect, we can pull nades in between the dthrow.

Falco can camp if he wants. Since his standing lasers go over our crouch, Falco can just run off stage and laser while jumping back on. This allows his laser if timed correctly to hit our crouch; he has to shoot just above the ground. Needless to say, we pretty much have to approach since Falco can outcamp us. His lasers won't kill, but he can outcamp us. Not all Falcos camp though. Their jab cancel game is pretty good and when they get us in the air, it's a b**** to get back down as always, especially since Falco has a high jump.

 

[etecoon]

CG to spike is guaranteed 50% + and it gives possibilities for follow ups(either double spike to kill or tech chase if he SDI's it to stay on stage)

other than that just camp, crawling is slow and not really a reliable approach at all

 

[False]

No one should really be getting spike anymore from a follow up of CG.. It's been almost 3 years and no one QCDIs towards stage

 

[etecoon]

yeah, still sets up for other stuff though

pikachu's CG is the worst, **** that character so much

 

[veritas129]

Response to red quote: That only works cause he's not CG frame perfect. If the falco is good enough, he'll chain grab perfectly, which does NOT allow us to pull a nade. If it's not perfect, we can pull nades in between the dthrow.

Falco can camp if he wants. Since his standing lasers go over our crouch, Falco can just run off stage and laser while jumping back on. This allows his laser if timed correctly to hit our crouch; he has to shoot just above the ground. Needless to say, we pretty much have to approach since Falco can outcamp us. His lasers won't kill, but he can outcamp us. Not all Falcos camp though. Their jab cancel game is pretty good and when they get us in the air, it's a b**** to get back down as always, especially since Falco has a high jump.

So basically I should work on perfecting the CG, juggling the snake, and my laser camping game (arrrgh to camping)?

Oh and whats jab cancel?

thanks in advance

 

[Razek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZg1UlHoaGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtypVZRKCl8&feature=related

hrnut vs redhalberd

edit: btw snake should throw the grenades above falco while he is ground forcing him to jump enabling you to close distance, if he doesn't jump then he will either have to sheild or phantasm because if spaced right the grenade will be near him immobilizing him for that second where you could dash attack him, grab him or try to read the phantasm. Worse case scenario you'll get a peg for about 3 damage and the fight will reset.

hrnut on razek's account

 

[Darkshadow7827]

So basically I should work on perfecting the CG, juggling the snake, and my laser camping game (arrrgh to camping)?

Oh and whats jab cancel?

thanks in advance

Yes. Work on the CG. Juggling snake is pretty much a standard; reading airdodges, b-reversals, fast falled mixups, and the occasional falling dair/bair/nair is necessary to keep in the air. In the end though, it's all about reading and reacting. Falco's bair can beat our aerials if spaced properly. As for the laser game, just practice SHDL and DACUS/B-DACUS. You don't necessarily have to camp if you want to, though it may be more beneficial, but SHDL is essential for falco. Those lagless lasers are so annoying.

 

[veritas129]

Yea, my friend is great at using all of Snakes explosives. he uses grenades to force me to move and both proximity mines and C4 to restrict my movement. when he can shut off portions of the stage AND force me to move, it becomes way easier to predict my movements. lasering works for a little bit, but grenades somehow manage to sneak through and force me to stop. then snakes dacus can close the distance really quickly, either forcing me to phantasm or fight a losing hand to hand fight.

 

[veritas129]

Yes. Work on the CG. Juggling snake is pretty much a standard; reading airdodges, b-reversals, fast falled mixups, and the occasional falling dair/bair/nair is necessary to keep in the air. In the end though, it's all about reading and reacting. Falco's bair can beat our aerials if spaced properly. As for the laser game, just practice SHDL and DACUS/B-DACUS. You don't necessarily have to camp if you want to, though it may be more beneficial, but SHDL is essential for falco. Those lagless lasers are so annoying.

Ah i see, thanks man. I guess Ive been trying to fight him on the ground too much. Snakes bair is annoying but if i can fake him out i think i can take advantage of the ending lag. I usually use SHDL to create openings to rush in and hit, but half of the time i mess up and get shield grabbed or ftilted.

I completely forgot about comboing DACUS with the lasers too.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

There's some quite annoying situations you can make just by learning to buffer you DACUS out of moves. For instance buffering it out of the CG, or SHDL. There may be others, but i'm just listing the ones I know for sure.

 

[veritas129]

There's some quite annoying situations you can make just by learning to buffer you DACUS out of moves. For instance buffering it out of the CG, or SHDL. There may be others, but i'm just listing the ones I know for sure.

Ive been wondering about that a little. The DACUS is great for those and I can usually get a couple free hits with them, but sometimes I feel that I use the up smash too much and it lacks killing power when I need it most. Should I hold back on using moves like u-smash, and d-smash and save them for killing blows?