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Snake... my god...

East

Crappy Imitation
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
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763
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Doing Tricks in a Mansion Location: Tokyo, JP
So a friend of mine came down from VA and brought a friend of his who used Snake. We played some one on ones, and I got wrecked. Thing is, the guy doesn't even play well. We played a crap ton of friendlies, and everyone else I used except sheik completely ***** this guy, but after playing his snake, I realized i'm not sure how to approach the snake match-up. Any knowledgeable people care to shed a little light to me as well as the rest of the sheik boards?
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Spacing is very key to playing the Sheik vs Snake matchup. And by spacing, I mean baiting his incredible range and then using the small gap in time to rush in and punish. This is possible only because Sheik is fast. If he's not giving you those opportunities then hold back, charge/throw needles until he does.

Remember, hitting a grenade with a needle will cause it to explode, hitting Snake with a grenade will cause him to drop it, so if you can somehow time hitting Snake while holding a grenade with multiple needles, the first needle will cause him to drop the nade and the rest will detonate it right next to him. Needles are also good for killing grenades out of the air and setting off Claymores (Snake dsmash). If Snake makes the mistake of recovering low, which frankly he never should, you can try to steal his second jump with needles and force him to recover with the Cypher from under the stage, setting up for the grab gimp.

Ftilt lock is nice, but if you don't have the decay just right then Snake will have enough of a window to pull a grenade and interrupt your lock by blowing both of you up. If you're not confident in avoiding this then just end the lock early with a dsmash or nair.

Since Snake has fast and ranged attacks, you won't want to spam ftilt on his shield (you can actually use this as legit shield pressure when behind certain characters, like G&W). Instead, on a shield hit, either dsmash or go into jabs. Both of those can stuff most responses if you're quick enough about it. If he starts shielding the ftilt into dsmash/jab trap, then mix up a grab.

Snake's aerials are strong and typically out-prioritize yours, but your aerials are clearly faster. Try to bait him into an aerial and then punish the blind spots. If he spotdodges all the better, because that's when you can do empty shorthop baits into usmash (or Vanish if you're feeling silly). Getting him in the air is easy too, through utilt and pretty much all of Sheik's throws.

Snake is vulnerable off-stage and Sheik is good at edgeguarding. For this reason, any Snakes who know the matchup will double-jump Up+B recovery very early to go as high as possible, in order to avoid any edgeguards. In this case just use your usual aerial juggle pressure that I mentioned in the previous paragraph. If he's dumb and/or forced to recover low, go crazy. Bair can deal damage and knock him out of his Cypher armor, fair can force another Cypher, and Sheik has a decent grab range to do the grab gimp.

Snake's midstage neutral game is dangerous. His jabs are as fast as yours but much more damaging, his tilts are quick, and his utilt can KO you at just under 100% when undecayed. His grab game is scary too if you're not used to it, since the dthrow deals 12% and gives an instant wakeup punish setup for him. You typically want to stay out of his range until he whiffs something, and even then you have to move in fast since his tilts and jabs have moderately low cooldown. Sheik has a little trick of crouching under Snake's jabs and being able to dtilt past the range of his grab. Use this to your advantage until he picks up on the gimmick.

Uhh, not really sure what else to say. Ask me if I missed anything.

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you shield ftilt, then shieldgrab after the first hit, but ROLL AWAY if you shielded both hits, because you won't be in range for anything if you shielded both. Trying to punish after the second gets you jab combo'd.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
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Currently Japan
D*** Ankoku, make more post like that and your going to put the regulars sheik posters out of a job

I got nothing to add but to say we should save this piece of document in one of the stickied threads...although I don't know which one.

/thread.
 

silver0p

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
213
Location
in a void
yeah we should creat a thread where it gives advice on how to kill all the other characters like key things to do and think about i think that would be helpful instead of getting alot of threads asking how to deal with a certin charater... inless we already have that
 

Dragoomba

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
1,053
Location
Southern Idaho
yeah we should creat a thread where it gives advice on how to kill all the other characters like key things to do and think about i think that would be helpful instead of getting alot of threads asking how to deal with a certin charater... inless we already have that
You mean a matchup thread?
 

demodemo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
711
Location
Mrs.sauga, Canada
problem with snake is that you CAN out camp him, but its very impractical because of his DACUS and the pressure game sheik needs to be in against snake

the snakes i play are all mediocre, so i don't know about properties of ftilt and grenades. you can try predicting the grenades and dtilting after an ftilt, i don't think that hits the grenade

crouch goes under some of snakes grab, and goes under his jab. all while in range for a dtilt. not that good since snake can just utlit or ftilt, but still a nice thing to know

in the air, safest pressure is uair, but if your opponent knows two ****s, they won't bother engaging you in the air and will most likely just airdodge fast fall down. (snake falls fast) you can expect this and punish him on the ground appropriately. btw, snake's dair used in the air will only trade hits with the uair, which is a very meh defensive move since your uair will keep him in the air (which is bad for him). bottom line is, do anything to get snake in the air, and try to keep him there with throws and aerials.

villi, do you mean edgeguarding? in that case, not much, since sheik has some pretty poor edge options.
 

BRoomer
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yeah... ankoku said it all. needles wreck snake he doesn't have a strong answer to that kind of projectile.

FD isn't a bad counter pick in that match up.
 

Villi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,370
Location
California
villi, do you mean edgeguarding? in that case, not much, since sheik has some pretty poor edge options.
The problem is more being zoned by the ledge. Especially on battlefield (which I'm starting to think about banning...) when he's all "C'mon, u kno u wanna roll behind me :p" Chain seems to work alright in that situation, I just wish I could think of more options. I can't even double jump out of the situation a lot of the time. Anything aggressive I can think of is just not worth it.
 

Flamingo

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
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1,232
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Raleigh, NC. - In Dark Hart's Hart.
Sorry Sheikers. I kinda got ***** by a horde of Snakes in a tournament last Saturday. I've been wondering what to do also. I did come back with 100% on me in a dubs match and killed a 0% snake FOR THE WIN, that made my day! He didn't know how to DI the f-tilt well, or read my SHed aerials.
 

Tianxiazhai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
285
I find this a good strategy. Upclose and personal. Get him near the edge. F THrow. Make him cypher, Grab. Release. WIN!
 

demodemo

Smash Ace
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Jun 3, 2008
Messages
711
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Mrs.sauga, Canada
any snake with half a brain would not recover with their cypher so low, or will DI away from you so you can't grab them

villi, since its battlefield, you can try jumping to the top platform, to the next platform, and then run off fair or something. just basically run circles around snake, and keep going for grabs and downsmashes. on a small stage like battlefield its probably best not to try to camp him, it's just not going to work since he can just shield all your needles and dacus.
 

Tianxiazhai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
285
So..if they dont recover with cypher...and the c4 is on the stage... and they are below the ledge...How do you expect them to recover?
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Good luck getting a Snake to have to recover from below the ledge, right next to the ledge.

PROTIP: fthrow will not do this for you.
 

slickmasterizzy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
140
Location
Ohio, northeast
i barely ever roll (pushing shield) when im grabbing onto the edge. jump works well usually. for me at least reguardless of the matchup.

remember you can always go oh crap and double jump back over the edge... then chain. and you can do that up to 3? times before you have to actually touch the stage. use that to your advantage =D
 
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