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Snake matchup discussion

Palpi

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Kimchi knows about the f-tilt. This match-up is not 4:6 for ike. It is worse.

Ike can't really punish snake unless he hits with the 2nd hit of f-tilt on the shield. When snake gets the lead Ike has little to no options. Even hit trading with grenades sucks because snake won't die before 150%.

Kimchi, can't snake roll before a punish after the first f-tilt?

What if you take snake to rainbow cruise? Plank him at the upper part
 

§leepy God

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Snake loves BF, SV, Halberd, Brinstar, Norfair, JJ, FD, RC to a lesser extent (Utilt at top part = scary)....I think he likes basically every stage.
Jungle Japes and Rainbow Cruise is bad for Snake... but also bad for Ike. Norfair is also good for Ike as long as you don't lose track of the mines when fighting Snake. The rest I'll agree with.


Also Gheb_01, if Snake isn't suppose to lose to Ike, then why does my freind, who is a pretty good than a lot of Snake's I've seen nearly always lose to his friend who owns with Ike? This match up is closer than you think if it's 7/3 Snake. XD


I'll go no lower than 6/4 Snake, but my mindset is still on 55/45 Snake, but that's just me. Anyone try bringing Snake to Delfino Plaza?
 

Nidtendofreak

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Nah Sleepy, those two stages are good for Snake.

JJ he can cut the stage in two with a C4 + Landmine combo, and then just chuck grenades all day. Or plant C4 on the left platform to nail anyone recovering from the water.

RC has LOL kills with Utilt at the top of the stage, LOL kills with C4 just about anywhere and fun planting grenades were the opponent is going to be forced to go eventually.
 

theeboredone

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Nah Sleepy, those two stages are good for Snake.

JJ he can cut the stage in two with a C4 + Landmine combo, and then just chuck grenades all day. Or plant C4 on the left platform to nail anyone recovering from the water.

RC has LOL kills with Utilt at the top of the stage, LOL kills with C4 just about anywhere and fun planting grenades were the opponent is going to be forced to go eventually.
I'm sorry, but you have to be an idiot to get hit by a C4 anywhere on RC minus the boat. Grenades are still tough to throw, due to the fact the stage is moving around, and the Up-tilt is avoidable by simply uh...avoiding it. You know he's gonna look to do it, so just keep your distance. Ike actually has a lot going for him on this stage, such as the ability to gimp Snake's crappy recover, infinite Snake against the wall and then d-throwing him up before you get back down to the boat, and as stated earlier, Ike's aerial game is slightly better compared to Snake's.
 

Nidtendofreak

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In most cases about the C4 on RC? Yes?

Against Ike's aether? Not so much. I'm simply stating advantages Snake has on that stage that I can think of, not saying who would beat who there.
 

Kimchi

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Something to watch out for is watch out for Snakes who don't buffer Ftilts. When I say buffering Ftilts, I mean a situation in which where a Snake has a chance to get a Ftilt on you, but he does it too late and you shield both hits. The Snake just buffered a Ftilt. A lot of the better Snakes will know not to buffer Ftilts and that'll make it very hard for Ike to punish. Watch out especially if the Snake tries to time the second hit while you drop your shield to punish, because you think he'll buffer both hits. Snake can run after hitting your shield with the first hit, too, so no matter what, keep your shield up. This matchup can definitely be 60/40 as long as you use Snake's nades to your advantage smartly.
 

Palpi

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M2k fails on RC. (kinda joking) Adhd took him to last stock last hit there. M2k ***** on stages that give his opponent of better chance to win (on paper)

kinda like how ive never seen m2k play pokefloats in melee

spam would prolly cp that against him though xD
 

san.

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I play snakes all the time. I think it's 60:40, and not much worse... Or maybe even better

The worst stages to play against snake are big levels without platforms (aka FD). Get FD out of the way, first. Strike it or ban it, because you will rarely win against a good snake there. There's not much I could think of for counterpicks where snake has as large an advantage as FD, so ban something like frigate or something.

Retreating nairs are more essential in this match than fair. Snake won't be able to punish you as easily, and you won't be running haphazardly into lone nades. The good thing in this match is that Ike can get snake offstage relatively easily with the knockback of his moves.

There's not much snake can do except to avoid you in the air because Ike's nair just goes through most things snake can do to attack you, and a successful nair may lead to an easy follow up.

What Kimchi said about tilts and nades are what really keep the matchup in snake's favor, though. I think what others said about them are pretty much on point.
 

Kimchi

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Oh and when Snake is cooking nades and throwing them at you, try not to jump. Just shield the nades. I find that a lot of Snakes like to DACUS past you and hit you with their dash attack animation when you get close to them after passing their cooking nade defense.
 

stealthwarrior17

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Good comments, i believe this match up is also a bit more in snakes favor but its not an unbeatable matchup for Ike.

Best advice i've seen here so far, Juggle his heavy @$$, punish his recovery like a pro and get him in the air because overall Ike can take advantage. Be creative as someone said...
 

Kaito0921

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imo you shoulnt get grabbed. Every good snake player dthrows u and prediticting ur actions very fast and effectively. keeping a snake offstage is the best what ike can do. oh, and using ike's ftilt more, he outranges snakes ftilt (just the 1. hit?), methinks.. a reversed usmash is usefull, too, imo. for example; if snake recovering back to the stage, and save himself before the edge with a airdodge, a well timed reversing usmash hit him (this is just my experience, but it works and its imo worth to say it).
 

Palpi

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When snake's are coming back onto the stage from cyphering they don't air dodge, they usualy psuedo-wavebounce a nade to change their momentum so you can't hit them.

Also something that ally does extremely well is not getting cypher gimped. ALL snakes need to start DI'ing away when they use cypher so they won't get spiked or grab, so they can safely C4 themselves.
 

Kimchi

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Palpi's correct about Snakes coming back onto the stage. Also, another thing I want to point out is that when you're at high percentages, you should obviously be wary of Snake's Utilt. However, keep in mind that he won't spam it like an idiot and hope that you'll run into it, unless you're dumb. He'll probably Utilt kill you after using his Dthrow and tech chasing you. That's usually how I get by Snake's Utilt.
 

Guilhe

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Write-up by Yagami Light at the old matchup discussion

Character Two - Solid Snake

Character Strengths: Fast attacks, large hitboxes, very powerful, stage control.
Character Weaknesses: Poor air game, mediocre recovery.


Recommended Counterpick: Halberd / Corneria



Snake is a very good character that until recently occupied the highest possible spot on tier lists. This is due to his fantastic moveset, which contains speed, power and stage control all in one. Add to that the fact that he's the third heaviest character in the game, and as such going to be killing you at a faster rate than you'll be killing him, and you've got serious trouble.

Well, the last sentence WOULD be true were you anyone else, but you use Ike. The main thing Snake can use against you is his ability to control the stage. He has 5 or so projectiles, all of them quite deadly. As soon as the match starts, just run towards him to get him to fight you in Ike's best area, close quarters combat. Essentially, when I say just run towards him, I actually mean do dodge the grenades and such, so as to not get any damage. When you do reach him, you've got a few things that are a massive boon to your chances. First off, you've got your good air game, and Snake is very vulnerable in the air. Secondly, you've got quite a few spikes, so if you knock Snake off the stage (Using a plethora of moves, try to rack up damage via aerials, grabs and your ever present friend, the jab combo) you can use your Down Tilt spike, your Down Aerial spike if he's a bit too far (You can go fairly low for a spike, the Cyphr will assist you) and if he's trying to fly over you, teach him a good lesson and bring him back down with an Aether. Don't bother with a grab, kill him the real way. Whilst that is Snake's biggest weakness, you can attempt to kill him while on the stage as well. The Forward Tilt outranges the first hit of Snake's Forward Tilt (Known for incredible range) and kills pretty early. The back aerial is also great, even better because you can get him in the air with it. If you get him into the air, he'll attempt airdodges back to the ground. Teach him a good lesson with the Up Smash, Up Aerial or Eruption. Never whiff a grounded side smash, as Snake has an almost equally powered one.

Now, let's reverse these roles, and assume Snake isn't doing punching bag training or has recently changed his world view on violence. Snake's moves are mostly faster than Ike's, most of them match Ike's power, and he's got good range and priority. Snake's jab combo (While not as good as yours) packs quite the punch and does 14%. Snake's forward tilt has ludicrous range and does 21%. Snake's down throw is one good tech chase and does 12%. Why am I listing these percents? Because Snake's up tilt kills you at around 100%, that's why. Now, as I'm sure you know, even though Ike is a middle-heavyweight, you still should be playing to not get hit, that concept is even more reinforced during this match. Snake's landmines and Nikita can be shielded, countered (Though don't degrade your counter too much, alright?) or just avoided in general (Do dispatch of the landmines, just in case). Snake will attempt to mortardash away if you get too close, so that's just another reason to keep the guy in the air. The Nikita missle is mainly used as an edgeguard, and quick drawing into it is the same as QDing into a human, so then you die. If you're high, feel free to Quick Draw (Watch out for an up smash, however), but if you're at a fairly low level, go and Aether. You may have to time the SA frames so a Nikita falling on you won't kill you, but that's a rare situation you'll be in. Never hurts to know your SA frames, of course (For the record, Aether has more SA frames tha Eruption does).

Snake's weight can and should be used against him with your underrated grab game. Jab to grab, forward or down throw, follow-up is a great way to rack up the damage on a heavy like Snake. By using these "weak" moves as damage dealers, you not only rack up damage, and keep him in the air or on the defensive, but you ALSO conserve and refresh your other, more powerful, killing moves so you don't get into the situation other characters with kill problems do.

Stages, stages. Corneria is the standard Ike CP of choice, but it's a little more dangerous here as Snake's Up tilt kills super fast at the top fin and he can lure you out of your infinite zone by using the Nikita missile. For this matchup, you might try Norfair or Green Greens. Green Greens is also a self explanatory Ike stand, filled with infinites, low kill areas and it also kind of messes with Snake's projectiles. Norfair blows up Snake's land mines, gives him little mortardash space, and as a whole reduces and camper's effectiveness as a whole. As far as neutral stages go, Battlefield is probably your best bet. Everything else assists Snake in some way (Try seeing mines on Lylat...).

That's essentially the lowdown on Snake. Ike's definitely got the ability to mess with Snake and put a damper on his game with all his close combat options. Essentially, get past the stage control, get him into the air, and give Snake no sympathy, haha.
 

Guilhe

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Recommended stage counterpick and banning

Counterpick

Pirate ship

Any questions?

Pokémon Stadium 1

This stage’s transformations occasionally render Snake’s mines placement ineffective, and Ike can abuse many of this stage intricacies to perform stage specific techniques such as the wall infinite and the jab dash.

Smashville

This is such a small stage, that Snake will never get too far away from you.

Banning

Final Destination


Don't get camped any harder.
 

§leepy God

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It should because it's nothing broken about Pirate Ship to ban it. But besides that, anyone have luck with Delfino with Snake? I would had, but all most of my match's with Snake is when I use Ness. Mistake typing. :p
 

Nidtendofreak

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I take people to RC.

SV is your best neutral, platforms on BF give us more control.

Also Snake doesn't really do bad on any stage. :x
And we have Ikes that take people to RC, while some MKs hate RC.

It's really a personal preference thing for most characters IMO, not much fact wise if they do good there or not. If your character is good, but your not comfortable with the stage, it's kinda a null points, with RC being the stage most effected by this.

Maybe PS1? We get our wall infinity there, mine/nade placement would be disrupted from time to time.
 

Kimchi

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So he can control the whole stage with explosives/tilts when the acid rises up?

No thanks. I would try Delfino. Or RC if you are comfortable with it.
His explosives aren't as effective here BECAUSE of the acid. This makes approaching Snake much easier than say Final Destination and Ike's aerials work really well on Brinstar. The hitboxes of the stage also don't benefit Snake as much as they do for Ike, and hitting people with DACUS and away when they get too close with Snake is also hindered by the middle part of the stage. Smashes are amplified and spacing here is much easier with Ike.
 

Nidtendofreak

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His explosives aren't as effective here BECAUSE of the acid. This makes approaching Snake much easier than say Final Destination and Ike's aerials work really well on Brinstar. The hitboxes of the stage also don't benefit Snake as much as they do for Ike, and hitting people with DACUS and away when they get too close with Snake is also hindered by the middle part of the stage. Smashes are amplified and spacing here is much easier with Ike.
Snake's tilts are also killing a heck of a lot sooner. And I thought explosives on the very top platform wouldn't blow up during the highest acid.

I honestly wouldn't risk it. Too much gambling. PS1 basically does all of that, without letting Snake kill even sooner with his tilts, and gives up a wall infinity.
 

Kimchi

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Snake's tilts are also killing a heck of a lot sooner. And I thought explosives on the very top platform wouldn't blow up during the highest acid.

I honestly wouldn't risk it. Too much gambling. PS1 basically does all of that, without letting Snake kill even sooner with his tilts, and gives up a wall infinity.
The ceiling isn't that low to make Snake's Utilt able to kill earlier, but you're right about Snake's killing potential being improved horizontally. Your DI will be the ultimate factor in how long you survive horizontally as always. As for the top platform, as long as you're dodge/shield smartly, his C4s and Claymore on that platform shouldn't be too much of a problem. If I'm sent up from the acid, I normally don't even try to land on that platform anyway. *Shrugs*, I just recommended the stage, because I literally have never lost to a Snake there. PS1 is good, but not all of the stage transformations hinder Snake. I still think Brinstar is a good CP though for Snake, because as SuSa said, Ike benefits more on Brinstar than Snake does.
 

§leepy God

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I was going to expand upon.

Snake has no bad stages.

Just stages that others do FAR better on.
I would say Luigi's Mansion since I'm pretty sure I haven't meet a single Snake main that likes that stage with any other characters. I say this because getting vertical kills on Luigi's Mansion is very hard to do with the ceilings in the way and the tall ceiling would make Snake work more harder to kill Ike. I would give Snake an advantage for his mines and C4's since it would be hard to look for them on a stage like that, but over all, you mostly have to rely on horizontal kills on that stage, which will be trouble strategy to kill when the Mansion is fully build. Ike has a well amount of horizontal kill moves, (Forward Tilt, Forward Smash, Back Air, and Forward Air). Both Ike and Snake has a good amount of options to hit from below the second floor of the stage which is good for both sides. I'll say this stage is between average and slightly bad depending on who you play here for Snake.

Sadly, since this stage has moved down to Counter/Banned, not everyone will get to experience this stage in tourney play. ):
 

SuSa

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You don't understand how awesome that stage is.

Stale that utilt juggling yo' ***.

You have have to learn to change what you punish with.

Also I hate you. I think I'll be changing my avatar soon.

 

§leepy God

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That would depend on what part of the stage he's Up Tilting. :p

It's still not easy to kill on that stage because of the ceilings... for any character. I know not to take Zelda, Olimar, or Lucas there ever. DX

Also, it's not my fault that CC is too awesome. :p
 

Guilhe

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I was going to expand upon. Snake has no bad stages. Just stages that others do FAR better on.
I believe Susa is right, Snake has no bad stages. That's why I'll recommend Smashville. Because it’s such a small stage, that Snake can’t abuse it as much against Ike. Now we need to find another stage recommendation that Snake can't abuse too much, for those regions in which Pirate Ship is banned.
 

Kimchi

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I believe Susa is right, Snake has no bad stages, that's why I'll recommend Smashville. Because it’s such a small stage, that Snake can’t abuse it as much against Ike.
Smashville is like a second Final Destination with the exception of the moving platform. It's a good stage to CP Snake, but I think PS1 would be a better choice as Snake's mines are essentially rendered inffective there as a result of the stage changes.
 

Guilhe

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Good one. Besides, this is arguably Ike's best neutral, so most Ike players should be adept to exploiting its many intricacies.
 
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